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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Alphabetti spaghetti
Problem posed in another thread (acknowledgements to Tom) When you buy alphabetti Spaghetti in Iceland, do you get eths and thorns? Is there Cyrillic and Greek alphabet pasta? In Japan, do you get katakana or hiragana? Do they have alphabet pasta in China, and if so, how big are the bags? > Problem posed in another thread (acknowledgements to Tom) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the > bags? An interesting question, to which I have no answer. But it does raise a deeper one: how have we got ourselves into a culture in which children can be offered food so revolting that it has to be bizarrely dressed up before the poor chicks will eat it?  SignatureMike. > > Problem posed in another thread (acknowledgements to Tom) > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > can be offered food so revolting that it has to be bizarrely dressed up > before the poor chicks will eat it? Don't knock it - in my 50s childhood in a working class household cans of Heinz spaghetti in tomato sauce were the closest we ever got to Italian cuisine . > > > Problem posed in another thread (acknowledgements to Tom) > > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > of Heinz spaghetti in tomato sauce were the closest we ever got to > Italian cuisine . That's the way it was in _any_ British household of the 1950s (except perhaps Elizabeth David's). I remember that my mother took a "continental cookery course" at which she learned how to make a thing called a Pisa (pronounced like the city of that name) that was more like a quiche (not that we would have known a nasty foreign word like "quiche") than anything you could call a pizza. athel > That's the way it was in _any_ British household of the 1950s (except > perhaps Elizabeth David's). I remember that my mother took a > "continental cookery course" at which she learned how to make a thing > called a Pisa (pronounced like the city of that name) that was more > like a quiche (not that we would have known a nasty foreign word like > "quiche") than anything you could call a pizza. Interesting, since the Chicago abomination they call ""pizza"" is, I think, remotely akin to quiche, though Erk might disagree. SignatureSalvatore Volatile > Interesting, since the Chicago abomination they call ""pizza"" is, I > think, remotely akin to quiche, though Erk might disagree. Which further makes one wonder whether Chicago "pizza" antedates any knowledge of actual pizza by Americans, and derives from culinary traditions established by the French settlers of the Great Lakes region. SignatureSalvatore Volatile > > Interesting, since the Chicago abomination they call ""pizza"" is, I > > think, remotely akin to quiche, though Erk might disagree. > > Which further makes one wonder whether Chicago "pizza" antedates any > knowledge of actual pizza by Americans, and derives from culinary > traditions established by the French settlers of the Great Lakes region. A few months ago Waitrose flogged me a French thing which was very like a tomato-free pizza. I don't remember its name, but the wrapper claimed, with what claim to truth I don't know, it was "traditional". You don't really mean that the Chicago "pizza" has something resembling custard on it, do you? Or just that the base is more like pastry than like bread? (Fellow-citizens, I debated long within my heart before deciding to take the risk of posting this paragraph. Forgive my innocent curiosity.) SignatureMike. >> > Interesting, since the Chicago abomination they call ""pizza"" is, I >> > think, remotely akin to quiche, though Erk might disagree. >> >> Which further makes one wonder whether Chicago "pizza" antedates any >> knowledge of actual pizza by Americans, and derives from culinary >> traditions established by the French settlers of the Great Lakes region. > You don't really mean that the Chicago "pizza" has something resembling > custard on it, do you? Not as far as I know, though I wouldn't rule out the existence of such varieties. > Or just that the base is more like pastry than > like bread? That much is true. One of the distinctive things about Chicago "pizza" is that it doesn't use anything like pizza crust (to me it seems like ersatz biscuit dough -- that's "biscuit" in the AmE sense of 'savoury scone') but perhaps it is more properly regarded as a pie-crust-like form of pastry. Someone here once stated that Chicago "pizza" was, in truth, a kind of cheese and tomato tart (though that should probably be "cheese and tomato ketchup tart"). Maybe Chicagoans were eating cheese tarts all along, and when the "pizza pie" craze hit the Middle West during the 1940s or so they just imposed the name "pizza" on their traditional recipe. That would make Chicago "pizza" more traditional, from an Americacentric perspective, than (say) New York (LCIA) pizza. SignatureSalvatore Volatile >>>Interesting, since the Chicago abomination they call ""pizza"" is, I >>>think, remotely akin to quiche, though Erk might disagree. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > deciding to take the risk of posting this paragraph. Forgive my > innocent curiosity.) I think we have been here before <cue Betty Marsden: many, many times..> In my experience, there is very little resemblance between the most authentic pizza I have ever eaten, bought from a street vendor in Naples, and the pizza I was served at the famous Uno in Chicago. Indeed, the only pints of similarity are the name and the involvement of tomato in the topping. The Neapolitan pizza [1] had a very thin, crisp base and a deliciously simple and tasty topping. The Chicago pizza had a thick heavy base and an over-seasoned topping. I would place these two examples at eaither end of a spectrum of pizza experience which encompasses Pizza Express (often very good) Domino's (not bad when they first started locally but a distinct aftertaste of bleach) Pizza Hut (not good at all) and Mamma Mia, my absolute favourite, conveniently located next to our shop, I'll even tolerate the hordes of North Oxford children - see http://www.oxfordcitylife.co.uk/restaurant_reviews.asp?id=62 The only point of comparison with a quiche would be that the Chicago pizza had a crust so that the topping did appear to be slightly sunk into the base. I wonder where SV has encountered quiche? I don't ever remember eating it in the US. Mm, I haven't had lunch yet. [1] Moment of insight: as I typed that, I thought of Neapolitan ice cream, the acme of sophisticated dessert in my childhood, and realised for the first time that the cream, pink and green slab was a pale imitation of the Italian flag. I expect everyone else has known that for ever. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > [1] Moment of insight: as I typed that, I thought of Neapolitan ice cream, > the acme of sophisticated dessert in my childhood, and realised for the > first time that the cream, pink and green slab was a pale imitation of the > Italian flag. I expect everyone else has known that for ever. The Neapolitan I remember was always chocolate, strawberry and vanilla. Anyone remember Mivvi? SignatureRay UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1015 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! >>[1] Moment of insight: as I typed that, I thought of Neapolitan ice cream, >>the acme of sophisticated dessert in my childhood, and realised for the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The Neapolitan I remember was always chocolate, strawberry and vanilla. > Anyone remember Mivvi? Yes. But there was definitely green ice cream in our Neapolitan. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > In my experience, there is very little resemblance between the most > authentic pizza I have ever eaten, bought from a street vendor in > Naples, and the pizza I was served at the famous Uno in Chicago. I can well believe that. > Indeed, > the only pints of similarity are the name and the involvement of tomato > in the topping. Truly. > The only point of comparison with a quiche would be that the Chicago > pizza had a crust so that the topping did appear to be slightly sunk > into the base. I wonder where SV has encountered quiche? I don't ever > remember eating it in the US. Quiche can be found in the US. It wasn't so well known prior to the publication of the best-selling _Real Men Don't Eat Quiche_ in the early 1980s. It's never been altogether popular, I think because the group it would be most likely to appeal to otherwise would find it fairly unhealthy. > [1] Moment of insight: as I typed that, I thought of Neapolitan ice > cream, the acme of sophisticated dessert in my childhood, and realised > for the first time that the cream, pink and green slab was a pale > imitation of the Italian flag. I expect everyone else has known that for > ever. As another has noted, US "Neapolitan ice cream" (a term now archaic, but still in use in my childhood in the 1970s) was a tricolor of chocolate, vanilla and strawberry. SignatureSalvatore Volatile > Quiche can be found in the US. It wasn't so well known prior to the > publication of the best-selling _Real Men Don't Eat Quiche_ in the early > 1980s. It's never been altogether popular, I think because the group it > would be most likely to appeal to otherwise would find it fairly > unhealthy. I think its popularity peaked just as people in that demographic were starting to get serious about actually cutting down on fat intake -- but it was the demonization of cholesterol in general and the egg in particular what done it in. It was truly the default party dish of the 70s. And it's still around; just not ubiquitous. By the way, the fattiest cuisine I've ever eaten: English vegetarian. Lots and lots of lovely cheese! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > By the way, the fattiest cuisine I've ever eaten: English vegetarian. Lots > and lots of lovely cheese! Made from the milk of aubergines?...r >> By the way, the fattiest cuisine I've ever eaten: English vegetarian. >> Lots and lots of lovely cheese! > > Made from the milk of aubergines?...r Cows. The fare of yer basic old-school English ethical vegitarian is many things, but vegan it most decidedly is not. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. The Roland Hutchinson entity posted thusly: >> Quiche can be found in the US. It wasn't so well known prior to the >> publication of the best-selling _Real Men Don't Eat Quiche_ in the early [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >By the way, the fattiest cuisine I've ever eaten: English vegetarian. Lots >and lots of lovely cheese! Ahh, cheese! MY favourite vegetable, next to lamb. > The Roland Hutchinson entity posted thusly: > >>By the way, the fattiest cuisine I've ever eaten: English >>vegetarian. Lots and lots of lovely cheese! > > Ahh, cheese! MY favourite vegetable, next to lamb. I've had lots of things next to lamb, but I can't recall ever eating it with cheese. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If the human brain were so simple 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |That we could understand it, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |We would be so simple |That we couldn't. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > Ahh, cheese! MY favourite vegetable, next to lamb. > > I've had lots of things next to lamb, but I can't recall ever eating > it with cheese. Which brings to mind: Lister: The lamb? Everybody thought the lamb was the cheese! And that lemon meringue pie, man, what was in that? Rimmer: I thought you liked that, you brought some back. Lister: Yeah, I wanted to try some on my athlete's foot. Better Than Life, Red Dwarf s2. Jac bopeepsheep@gmail.com had it: > > > Ahh, cheese! MY favourite vegetable, next to lamb. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Lister: The lamb? Everybody thought the lamb was the cheese! And that > lemon meringue pie, man, what was in that? Definition of an intellectual. It was only when I got to the first word in the next sentence that I realised you weren't talking about the discoverer of antiseptics. I had wondered why the great man was going on about cheese. > Rimmer: I thought you liked that, you brought some back. > Lister: Yeah, I wanted to try some on my athlete's foot. SignatureDavid ===== Nope. Gravity under Vista got worse. Back to XP. > bopeepsheep@gmail.com had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> Rimmer: I thought you liked that, you brought some back. >> Lister: Yeah, I wanted to try some on my athlete's foot. Well, you were close. Anti-fungals are sort of in the same ballpark. Maybe he's a distant descendant or relation. Does the Red Dwarf canon specify that detail, I wonder. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >I've had lots of things next to lamb, but I can't recall ever eating >it with cheese. Moussaka springs to mind. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >>>>Interesting, since the Chicago abomination they call ""pizza"" is, I >>>>think, remotely akin to quiche, though Erk might disagree. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >a deliciously simple and tasty topping. The Chicago pizza had a thick >heavy base and an over-seasoned topping. Uno's serves only "deep dish pizza". It does not serve "Chicago pizza" because there is no such thing. Deep dish pizza is a style of pizza, and different Chicago pizzerias serve different styles of pizza. The thin crust pizza is served in most Chicago pizzerias, but some offer both thin crust and deep dish. The "Chicago pizza" concept comes from people coming to Chicago and trying only Uno's deep dish style and thinking that's what served in Chicago. There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the "authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white soup base, and there's the "authentic" Manhattan clam chowder that has a thin, red soup base. Some New York City restaurants serve one style, and some serve the other. One would be wrong to assume that all chowder available in NYC is thin and red. Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in London restaurants. I would place these two >examples at eaither end of a spectrum of pizza experience which >encompasses Pizza Express (often very good) Domino's (not bad when they [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >imitation of the Italian flag. I expect everyone else has known that for >ever. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the > "authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white > soup base, and there's the "authentic" Manhattan clam chowder that has > a thin, red soup base. Some New York City restaurants serve one > style, and some serve the other. One would be wrong to assume that > all chowder available in NYC is thin and red. Right, but the white creamy kind is always called "New England clam chowder", I think. SignatureSalvatore Volatile > There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the > "authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white > soup base, and there's the "authentic" Manhattan clam chowder that has > a thin, red soup base. Some New York City restaurants serve one > style, and some serve the other. One would be wrong to assume that > all chowder available in NYC is thin and red. But one would not be very far wrong to assume that all chowder served in New England is white. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the >> "authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But one would not be very far wrong to assume that all chowder served in New > England is white. Can one distinguish between chowder and "chowdah" in this regard? SignatureSalvatore Volatile > >> There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the > >> "authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Can one distinguish between chowder and "chowdah" in this regard? Isn't a chowdah the thing very small rajahs ride in on the back of a fluffy dog? SignatureMike. >> There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the >> "authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >But one would not be very far wrong to assume that all chowder served in New >England is white. Interesting sentence, Roland. "Not very far wrong" negates the "all" and leaves us with "Not all chowder served in New England is white" and is the same as saying "One would be wrong to assume that all chowder available in NYC is thin and red." SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>>There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the >>>"authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and is the same as saying "One would be wrong to assume that > all chowder available in NYC is thin and red." I didn't read it like that. "One would not be very far wrong" means, to me, "one would be pretty much right". Hence all chowder served in New England is probably white. (But what would I know of chowder?) SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > >>>There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the > >>>"authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > me, "one would be pretty much right". Hence all chowder served in New > England is probably white. (But what would I know of chowder?) I'd definately agree with your reading. Of course, it is possible some New Yorker fugitive makes thing red chowder in Boston. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada >>>>>There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the >>>>>"authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I'd definately agree with your reading. Of course, it is possible some > New Yorker fugitive makes thing red chowder in Boston. And then there is Rhode Island clam chowder, which is made with a thin clear broth. Fran > >>>>>There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the > >>>>>"authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Fran And I have had what I was told was a Nova Scotian chowder that was made with milk. What would the clear broth be in the Rhode Island chowder? John Kane, Kingston ON Canada >>>>>>>There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the >>>>>>>"authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > What would the clear broth be in the Rhode Island chowder? I have only eaten it at seafood shacks near the beach; I've never cooked it myself. Most of the recipes I have seen suggest chicken broth. I have seen one that starts with water, and one that lists bottled clam juice (whatever that is). Fran > I didn't read it like that. "One would not be very far wrong" means, > to me, "one would be pretty much right". I'm with you so far, but... > Hence all chowder served in New England is probably white. (But what > would I know of chowder?) here we must part company. If you'd be 'pretty much right' in saying that all chowder served in New England is white, then you're admitting that some chowder served in New England is not white. I would therefore amend your last sentence to say, "Hence, almost all chowder served in New England is white." And probably "(But what would I know from chowder?)" while I'm at it. -=Eric > > I didn't read it like that. "One would not be very far wrong" means, > > to me, "one would be pretty much right". [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -=Eric I think we may have a dialectiacal difference here. Are you in the USA? I would also say something like " One might expect a few people to be interested in the sale" in some instances to mean that I expected a small riot as the doors to the store were opened. I once used a similar phrase in a technical report about a problem and it was suggest that I was being just a bit sarcastic. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada > I think we may have a dialectiacal difference here. Are you in the USA? Yes. > I would also say something like " One might expect a few people to be > interested in the sale" in some instances to mean that I expected a > small riot as the doors to the store were opened. > > I once used a similar phrase in a technical report about a problem and > it was suggest that I was being just a bit sarcastic. All part of that dry Canadian wit, eh? -=Eric >>>>There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the >>>>"authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > me, "one would be pretty much right". Hence all chowder served in New > England is probably white. (But what would I know of chowder?) Just so: I was making allowances for the occasional transplanted and misguided New Yorker who might attempt to serve the stuff in the privacy of their home. True story: when I was much younger, with a freshly minted B.Sc. degree in music and a newly acquired bass viola da gamba, I found myself qualified for an entry-level position with the Friendly Ice Cream Corporation (i.e., part-time waiter and dishwasher in an ice-cream and burger joint) in its restaurant in Brighton, Mass. For reasons unknown and unknowable, a former manager had at one time ordered a case of Manhattan clam chowder (in very large cans), which was languishing in our storeroom. For reasons even more inscrutable, the current manager decided one day to put it on the menu as one of our soup selections, in place of the usual New England clam chowder. So we made up a big potful. It sat for two days, without a single bowl or cup being sold. Meanwhile, many potential orders for New England clam chowder went likewise unsold, which had an appreciable effect on the week's receipts. A certain number of complaints from both regular and casual customers were also recorded. The experiment was not repeated. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>There's a similar situation in the US with clam chowder. There's the >>>>"authentic" New England clam chowder which has a thick, creamy, white [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >me, "one would be pretty much right". Hence all chowder served in New >England is probably white. (But what would I know of chowder?) I think once you put "all" in a sentence, you are making the "right" or "wrong" an absolute. If you don't want the statement to an absolute, you substitute "most" for "all". Just to drift, though, what might have led to "chowder head" being a description of someone without any sense? If they have soup-for-brains, then why not "chicken noodle head" or "matzah ball head"? SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > Just to drift, though, what might have led to "chowder head" being a > description of someone without any sense? If they have > soup-for-brains, then why not "chicken noodle head" or "matzah ball > head"? "Noodle head" is redundant, like "Peter O'Toole"....r >Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >London restaurants. I've never seen it in London, or anywhere else in the UK for that matter. I was quite intrigued when I first came across it in the US. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > >Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in > >London restaurants. > > I've never seen it in London, or anywhere else in the UK for that > matter. I was quite intrigued when I first came across it in the US. Cf "New York dress" chicken, which I believe, was a new kind of "dress" from York. SignatureMike. >> >Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >> >London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Cf "New York dress" chicken, which I believe, was a new kind of "dress" > from York. In the Hinterlands they have things called "New York steak", "New York strip steak", etc. I don't think these terms are in use in New York, but I don't go to steakhouses much. SignatureSalvatore Volatile >>>>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>>London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > strip steak", etc. I don't think these terms are in use in New York, but > I don't go to steakhouses much. In some places in Australia, they have "New York cut", which is basically a truly enormous steak. SignatureRob Bannister > >Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in > >London restaurants. > > I've never seen it in London, or anywhere else in the UK for that > matter. I was quite intrigued when I first came across it in the US. Like English muffins. Ever come across anything resembling an "English muffin" in England? There are, of course, things called muffins that are made in England and have as good a claim as any to be called English muffins, but they aren't called that and don't resemble the things that are. I never remember whether the things I used to eat when I lived in Cheshire were called muffins but were called crumpets elsewhere, or whether it was the other way round. (Crumpets are not to be confused with crumpet, which has quite a different meaning.) athel The athel...@yahoo entity posted thusly: >> >Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >> >London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >whether it was the other way round. (Crumpets are not to be confused >with crumpet, which has quite a different meaning.) A recent McDonald's advertisement showed two fellow eating. One was eating a "muffin" (a cake-ish thing), and the other was eating an "Egg McMuffin" (a sandwich with an egg in it, surrounded by a bread-ish thing normally called, in North America, an English muffin). The one eating the Egg McMuffin starts the conversation (from memory): "Why do they call this an Egg McMuffin?" "Because it has an egg in it." "Yes, I see, but what about the muffin?" (pointing) "That's a muffin." "Yes, but that's an English Muffin." "What if I went to England and wanted to order one like yours?" "Don't go to England." > A recent McDonald's advertisement showed two fellow eating. One was > eating a "muffin" (a cake-ish thing), and the other was eating an "Egg > McMuffin" (a sandwich with an egg in it, surrounded by a bread-ish > thing normally called, in North America, an English muffin). I'm more than a little surprised that none of Areff's avatars took issue with your definition of the EMcM as a "sandwich"....r >> A recent McDonald's advertisement showed two fellow eating. One was >> eating a "muffin" (a cake-ish thing), and the other was eating an "Egg [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm more than a little surprised that none of Areff's avatars took > issue with your definition of the EMcM as a "sandwich"....r I hadn't noticed that till now. We live in a time when the so-called "breakfast sandwich" is a staple of fast-food chains, and McDonalds' Egg McMuffin was the first of this sort. But I'd say it isn't a sandwich except in a metaphorical sense. SignatureSalvatore Volatile >> I'm more than a little surprised that none of Areff's avatars took >> issue with your definition of the EMcM as a "sandwich"....r [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > McDonalds' Egg McMuffin was the first of this sort. But I'd say it > isn't a sandwich except in a metaphorical sense. Of course not. Who would think of calling meat, egg, and cheese between sliced bread a sandwich? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Giving money and power to government 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is like giving whiskey and car keys Palo Alto, CA 94304 |to teenage boys. | P.J. O'Rourke kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> I hadn't noticed that till now. We live in a time when the >> so-called "breakfast sandwich" is a staple of fast-food chains, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Of course not. Who would think of calling meat, egg, and cheese > between sliced bread a sandwich? Erk, I'm not entirely comfortable with calling an English muffin "bread". I recognize that in US supermarkets English muffins are invariably sold in the bread aisle (but then so are hamburger buns and hotdog buns). I recognize too that English muffins have traditionally served as a substitute for (sliced bread) toast. I concede that it's a close case. SignatureSalvatore Volatile [...] > Like English muffins. Ever come across anything resembling an "English > muffin" in England? There are, of course, things called muffins that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > whether it was the other way round. (Crumpets are not to be confused > with crumpet, which has quite a different meaning.) We could get into pikelets if you like. (In our family we call miniature thickish pancakes "pikelets", but that may be idiosyncratic or Australian.) I know there's a lot of regional variation, but actually one of the things I've heard authentically called a "muffin" in England seems very like the ones at: http://www.newenglishmuffins.com/ The following, however, is what we tend to think Americans think is a muffin: http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/food/recipe/detail.htm?recipeid=2572 To my mind, it has virtually no muffin properties. I suppose I'd call it and the next one cup-cakes, or even overgrown fairy cakes: http://www.foodfitness.org.uk/images/choc_muffin.jpg These things have only been called "muffins" here for a decade or two, and I'm sure it's an introduced Americanism -- note how often they contain, for no good reason, blueberries. Beeton 1906 says that muffins and crumpets differ in that the crumpet mixture is "more a batter than a sponge"; both contain yeast ans potatoes. There's also a recipe for "Chester muffins", which seem to be small sweet yeast cakes with no potatoes, and apparently served as baked, without being toasted. SignatureMike. athel_cb@yahoo.co.uk had it: > Like English muffins. Ever come across anything resembling an "English > muffin" in England? There are, of course, things called muffins that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > whether it was the other way round. (Crumpets are not to be confused > with crumpet, which has quite a different meaning.) Ah, muffins and crumpets. This is where I got on the AUE roundabout. I think I'll go around a few more times though. SignatureDavid ===== Nope. Gravity under Vista got worse. Back to XP. > athel_cb@yahoo.co.uk had it: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Ah, muffins and crumpets. This is where I got on the AUE roundabout. > I think I'll go around a few more times though. There was an experimental boink but it was before my time. I was there for the pickled walnuts, though - yuck. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > Like English muffins. Ever come across anything resembling an "English > muffin" in England? There are, of course, things called muffins that > are made in England and have as good a claim as any to be called > English muffins, but they aren't called that and don't resemble the > things that are. To some extent I agree with you. The things sold in the USA as 'English muffins' are abominable and shouldn't be eaten by anyone, and aren't like anything else in the universe. They appear to be aiming for all the worst aspects of a muffin crossed with a crumpet, and are usually served burned IME. The things they are intended to resemble, however, exist and are just called 'muffins'. Very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a fried egg and lime pickle. (Yes, really.) Jac > The things they are intended to resemble, however, exist and are just > called 'muffins'. Very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a > fried egg and lime pickle. (Yes, really.) If English muffins are meant to resemble anything, it's a crumpet. They don't in any meaningful way resemble a muffin, if by 'muffin' you mean something such as is depicted on <http://www.muffinfilms.com/> (a site I found only when googling for if there were any pondian differences). -=Eric > > The things they are intended to resemble, however, exist and are just > > called 'muffins'. Very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > site I found only when googling for if there were any pondian > differences). Eh? The main picture on that site is of a bun tin with cake cases in, nothing to do with muffins. It's a page made by someone who studied at UCLA, so those are American muffins, not British ones. These are muffins: http://keycross.at.infoseek.co.jp/photos/syokuzai2.jpg (from British supermarket Tesco, labelled 'white muffins') . They are not crumpets, as crumpets look like this: http://www.warburtons.co.uk/images/our_bread/crumpets_small2.jpg - you don't slice a crumpet, the holes are visible on top and go right through to almost the base of the item, and the texture is quite rubbery when uncooked. Jac >> > The things they are intended to resemble, however, exist and are just >> > called 'muffins'. >> If English muffins are meant to resemble anything, it's a crumpet. > These are muffins: > http://keycross.at.infoseek.co.jp/photos/syokuzai2.jpg (from British > supermarket Tesco, labelled 'white muffins') . Hard to tell from that photo whether they resemble AmE English muffins. > They are not crumpets, > as crumpets look like this: > http://www.warburtons.co.uk/images/our_bread/crumpets_small2.jpg - you > don't slice a crumpet, the holes are visible on top and go right > through to almost the base of the item, and the texture is quite > rubbery when uncooked. Visually, those crumpets look a little bit like English muffins that have been sliced. The crumpets I've occasionally seen in US supermarkets (which presumably are authentically British, since crumpets are unknown as an AmE food) looked kind of like that, but rather spongy-looking. It is a commonly-held myth in the US, however, that English muffins "are called 'crumpets' in England". I've read that in a number of places (I think typically in those divided-by-a-common-tongue lists of corresponding terms). This may be because we have no knowledge of what muffins in England are. How, I wonder, did the American cupcake-like muffin come to be (and how did it come to have the default meaning of 'muffin' in AmE)? SignatureSalvatore Volatile >>>> The things they are intended to resemble, however, exist and are >>>> just called 'muffins'. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > How, I wonder, did the American cupcake-like muffin come to be (and > how did it come to have the default meaning of 'muffin' in AmE)? Dunno, but its evolution may be dimly reflected in the Webster's entries at OneLook. The 1828 dictionary has "MUF'FIN, n. A delicate or light cake." The 1913 dictionary has "Muf"fin (?), n. [From Muff.] A light, spongy, cylindrical cake, used for breakfast and tea." The latter version begins to sound like the NAmican doohickey, er, delicacy. The Jacqui entity posted thusly: >> > The things they are intended to resemble, however, exist and are just >> > called 'muffins'. Very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >nothing to do with muffins. It's a page made by someone who studied at >UCLA, so those are American muffins, not British ones. The gist of her statement made it clear; English muffins do not resemble muffins, if this picture is what you mean by "muffins". They are indeed, in some areas, called muffins. You may not have actually seen them if you didn't drive your mouse pointer over the muffin pan liners contained in the muffin pan (the bun tin with cake cases), at which time the muffins pop into view. >These are muffins: >http://keycross.at.infoseek.co.jp/photos/syokuzai2.jpg (from British Those are exactly what most North Americans call "English Muffins". >supermarket Tesco, labelled 'white muffins') . They are not crumpets, >as crumpets look like this: >http://www.warburtons.co.uk/images/our_bread/crumpets_small2.jpg - you >don't slice a crumpet, the holes are visible on top and go right >through to almost the base of the item, and the texture is quite >rubbery when uncooked. Those are what most Canadians would call crumpets, but I don't know if they are know south of our border. > The Jacqui entity posted thusly: > >> > The things they are intended to resemble, however, exist and are just [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > The gist of her statement made it clear; English muffins do not > resemble muffins, if this picture is what you mean by "muffins". Which one of Eric and me is 'her'? The point is that those are NOT what I mean by 'muffins', although they do resemble fairy cakes. I know those are US 'muffins' (as opposed to US 'English muffins') but they have nothing in common with British 'muffins'. It's a comparison I would never make. Our shops do sell US-Eng muffins too, but they're often labelled as 'American-style' or similar. > >These are muffins: > >http://keycross.at.infoseek.co.jp/photos/syokuzai2.jpg (from British > > Those are exactly what most North Americans call "English Muffins". No. Visually they are *similar* to what most North Americans call 'English muffins'. When you slice them, or eat them, they are actually somewhat different. Think of it as the difference between a cheap white sliced loaf in a plastic wrapper and fresh crusty bread. For a start, US-EngMuf are about 2cm tall and leathery uncooked or cooked (and are usually overcooked). UK-EngMuf are more like 5cm tall, and soft with a 'sandy' feel to the outside. Ours have a doughy inside (with no aerated holes that resemble crumpets). Hence the need to tear them, rather than slice them. Jac > Our shops do sell US-Eng muffins too, but they're often labelled as > 'American-style' or similar. "American-style English muffins", or "American-style muffins"? (I understand that American "muffins" [the ones that are sort of cupcake-like] are called "American muffins" in the UK.) > US-EngMuf are about 2cm tall and leathery uncooked or cooked (and are > usually overcooked). Conceptually, Americans don't "cook" (premade) English muffins -- they toast them. (Although that might occur in a toaster oven rather than a traditional toaster.) > UK-EngMuf are more like 5cm tall, and soft with a > 'sandy' feel to the outside. AmE English muffins also often have a sandy external texture, AWMTST. > Ours have a doughy inside (with no aerated > holes that resemble crumpets). Sometimes called "nooks and crannies" by Americans, thanks to a successful advertising campaign for the leading Thomas's brand some decades ago. > Hence the need to tear them, rather than slice them. I'm not sure why that that follows (for example, one slices bagels rather than tears them). I can certainly imagine tearing rather than slicing an English muffin, but I think they're too thin for tearing to be non-destructive. SignatureSalvatore Volatile > > Our shops do sell US-Eng muffins too, but they're often labelled as > > 'American-style' or similar. > > "American-style English muffins", or "American-style muffins"? (I > understand that American "muffins" [the ones that are sort of > cupcake-like] are called "American muffins" in the UK.) No, they are called 'American-style muffins'. > > US-EngMuf are about 2cm tall and leathery uncooked or cooked (and are > > usually overcooked). > > Conceptually, Americans don't "cook" (premade) English muffins -- they > toast them. (Although that might occur in a toaster oven rather than a > traditional toaster.) Well, we don't cook them either but since I have no idea what American hotels do to their breakfast goods and can only go by the results I feared 'toast' wasn't the right answer either. (FWIW we [Br-Eng] grill ours, and only on the outside, not the inside.) > > Hence the need to tear them, rather than slice them. > > I'm not sure why that that follows (for example, one slices bagels rather > than tears them). I can certainly imagine tearing rather than slicing an > English muffin, but I think they're too thin for tearing to be > non-destructive. A British muffin is twice the height of a US 'English muffin' so thinness isn't a factor - each resulting half is still springier and bigger than the US untorn version. The point about tearing muffins was made by David earlier in the thread - it involves butter. Jac The Jacqui entity posted thusly: >> > Our shops do sell US-Eng muffins too, but they're often labelled as >> > 'American-style' or similar. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >bigger than the US untorn version. The point about tearing muffins was >made by David earlier in the thread - it involves butter. Ahh.. makes sense. Holds more butter. One of the best things about a crumpet is how much butter it holds, and how far into the thing it gets. >> Our shops do sell US-Eng muffins too, but they're often labelled as >> 'American-style' or similar. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >English muffin, but I think they're too thin for tearing to be >non-destructive. I do like a toasted English muffin with butter and apple butter. (apple butter is a jelly and not a butter) Our toaster has wide enough slots to accommodate English muffins, but I normally use the counter top toaster oven. We keep English muffins in the fridge (mold grows quickly if you don't keep the refrigerated). They tear cleanly when cold. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>I'm not sure why that that follows (for example, one slices bagels >>rather [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I do like a toasted English muffin with butter and apple butter. > (apple butter is a jelly and not a butter) Huh? I have always considered apple butter to be t thicker and spicier version of apple sauce. Of course, as with gravy, tomato sauce, cranberry sauce, (yes, mustard and ketchup, or buttered, with a sprinkle of sugar) and a few other items, I consider just about any kind a bread an appropriate underlayment for apple sauce. Any way, apple jelly is apple jelly, but never, never, never is apple butter apple jelly! > Our toaster has wide enough > slots to accommodate English muffins, but I normally use the counter > top toaster oven. > > We keep English muffins in the fridge (mold grows quickly if you don't > keep the refrigerated). They tear cleanly when cold. >>>I'm not sure why that that follows (for example, one slices bagels >>>rather [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >an appropriate underlayment for apple sauce. Any way, apple jelly is >apple jelly, but never, never, never is apple butter apple jelly! Like a jelly or a jam, it's a spread. Apple sauce is not normally a spread, but it is spread on potato pancakes and a few other things. Unlike apple sauce, one would not eat apple butter as a side dish. In the supermarket, you find apple butter on the shelves with the jellies and jams. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > Like a jelly or a jam, it's a spread. Apple sauce is not normally a > spread, but it is spread on potato pancakes and a few other things. > Unlike apple sauce, one would not eat apple butter as a side dish. > > In the supermarket, you find apple butter on the shelves with the > jellies and jams. When Coop's Right, He's Right(tm). My extended family has an apple orchard in southern Illinois, so I know from apple butter. I would have said it was a jam more than a jelly (really, it's its own category of thing), as there is such a thing as apple jelly, which is not the same thing as apple butter, but his basic point, that it is classed with jellies and jams, and not with applesauce, is correct. -=Eric >> Like a jelly or a jam, it's a spread. Apple sauce is not normally a >> spread, but it is spread on potato pancakes and a few other things. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > not the same thing as apple butter, but his basic point, that it is > classed with jellies and jams, and not with applesauce, is correct. I agree that Coop is right about that point. I continue to object to the view that apple butter is "a jelly", and it sounds like you don't subscribe to it either. Apple butter is different from all the types of jam I'm familiar with, but I'm willing to consider it a jam as a compromise. SignatureSalvatore Volatile >>> Like a jelly or a jam, it's a spread. Apple sauce is not normally a >>> spread, but it is spread on potato pancakes and a few other things. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Apple butter is different from all the types of jam I'm familiar with, but >I'm willing to consider it a jam as a compromise. I think that calling apple butter a jelly or a jam depends on the context. It's apple sauce with cinnamon, clove, sugar and a few other things added. In aue, this doesn't make it a jelly or a jam. However, if someone asks you if you would like jelly or jam on your English muffin, I think it's perfectly correct to say "Yes, I'd like some apple butter on my English muffin". It's perfectly correct to say that apple butter is found with the other jellies and jams in the supermarket. My only reason for describing it as a jelly earlier was to make it clear to people not familiar with the product that "apple butter" is not butter. It's a jelly-like, or jam-like, spread that is smeared on muffins, toast, and other things. "Other" as in one of my favorites: a graham cracker with cream cheese and apple butter. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > I think that calling apple butter a jelly or a jam depends on the > context. It's apple sauce with cinnamon, clove, sugar and a few > other things added. For those not familiar with it, we should add that it's not merely apple sauce with those things added. It's apple sauce with those things added and then cooked down for quite a while. For example, at http://www.recipeland.com/recipe/490/ you cook the applesauce for three hours, add the spices (and cider), and then cook for another hour. Other recipes go as long as eight hours. The resulting texture is nothing like applesauce. > In aue, this doesn't make it a jelly or a jam. No. It's a butter (but not simply "butter"). You can make, e.g., peach butter or plum butter much the same way, but apple butter's the only one that really caught on here, probably because apples were relatively much cheaper. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Politicians are like compost--they 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |should be turned often or they start Palo Alto, CA 94304 |to smell bad. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > No. It's a butter (but not simply "butter"). You can make, e.g., > peach butter or plum butter much the same way, but apple butter's > the only one that really caught on here, Except, of course, for peanut butter. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Now and then an innocent man is sent 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to the legislature. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Kim Hubbard kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>No. It's a butter (but not simply "butter"). You can make, e.g., >>peach butter or plum butter much the same way, but apple butter's >>the only one that really caught on here, > > Except, of course, for peanut butter. Yuck. I assume that "butter" in these contexts is a reference to the consistency of the stuff. I have had maple butter, which comes somewhere between maple syrup and maple sugar in the maple product spectrum. Fran >> No. It's a butter (but not simply "butter"). You can make, e.g., >> peach butter or plum butter much the same way, but apple butter's >> the only one that really caught on here, > > Except, of course, for peanut butter. Almond butter and cashew butter are staging an insurrection in local Henry's "natural foods" markets. SignatureFrank ess San Diego CA USA Patio conditions: 77° F., 23% humidity >>> No. It's a butter (but not simply "butter"). You can make, e.g., >>> peach butter or plum butter much the same way, but apple butter's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Almond butter and cashew butter are staging an insurrection in local > Henry's "natural foods" markets. I just got back from the grocery store (Shoprite in Norwalk CT) where I saw apple butter on the jam and jelly shelves, next to the grape jelly. And next to the prune butter. Fran > I think that calling apple butter a jelly or a jam depends on the > context. It's apple sauce with cinnamon, clove, sugar and a few other [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > English muffin, I think it's perfectly correct to say "Yes, I'd like > some apple butter on my English muffin". Hmm, not to me. I'd say "Do you have any apple butter?", because the offer of jelly or jam is itself no indication that the server has apple butter. > It's perfectly correct to > say that apple butter is found with the other jellies and jams in the > supermarket. Disagree. I'd say it's found with jellies and jams. So is peanut butter, very often (or at least peanut butter is close by). > My only reason for describing it as a jelly earlier was to make it > clear to people not familiar with the product that "apple butter" is > not butter. It's a jelly-like, or jam-like, spread that is smeared on > muffins, toast, and other things. I agree that it's functionally a lot like jelly or jam. It's used in contexts in which one might otherwise use jelly or jam (although maybe that's just you and me, Coop). SignatureSalvatore Volatile The Tony Cooper entity posted thusly: >>> Our shops do sell US-Eng muffins too, but they're often labelled as >>> 'American-style' or similar. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >slots to accommodate English muffins, but I normally use the counter >top toaster oven. Yikes! Apple jelly is, well, Apple Jelly. It is nothing at all like apple butter, which is smoothly spreadable, and the consistency closer to butter than to any form of jelly. Or at least that's what it is to me. >We keep English muffins in the fridge (mold grows quickly if you don't >keep the refrigerated). They tear cleanly when cold. > I do like a toasted English muffin with butter and apple butter. > (apple butter is a jelly and not a butter) I agree that apple butter is not "a butter" in the conventional sense of butter being a dairy product, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that apple butter is "a jelly". It seems entirely different from all the other things we think of as jelly. It's no more a jelly than peanut butter is a jelly. I believe I've seen a product called "apple jelly" on sale, though I've never tried it; it looked like a form of jelly. All these things are typically sold in the same part of the supermarket, but then again so is peanut butter, and, again, peanut butter isn't jelly. > We keep English muffins in the fridge (mold grows quickly if you don't > keep the refrigerated). They tear cleanly when cold. Yes, I think that's been my experience too, though I haven't had English muffins in a while. I think they are designed to tear cleanly, or some brands are, anyway. SignatureSalvatore Volatile The Jacqui entity posted thusly: >> The Jacqui entity posted thusly: >> >> > The things they are intended to resemble, however, exist and are just [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Which one of Eric and me is 'her'? My mistake. I was referring to Eric, due to my misreading of the attributions. I thought Jacqui had made the comment. > The point is that those are NOT >what I mean by 'muffins', although they do resemble fairy cakes. I know >those are US 'muffins' (as opposed to US 'English muffins') but they >have nothing in common with British 'muffins'. It's a comparison I >would never make. Exactly, and that's why Eric said "if by 'muffin' you mean something such as is depicted on <http://www.muffinfilms.com/>". If you don't mean that, the "if" is not satisfied. Right? >Our shops do sell US-Eng muffins too, but they're often labelled as >'American-style' or similar. >> >These are muffins: >> >http://keycross.at.infoseek.co.jp/photos/syokuzai2.jpg (from British [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >holes that resemble crumpets). Hence the need to tear them, rather than >slice them. Ahh! I could not tell the height, or internal texture from the picture. Visually similar I will go along with. > The Jacqui entity posted thusly: > >> The Jacqui entity posted thusly: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Exactly, and that's why Eric said "if by 'muffin' you > mean something such as is depicted on <http://www.muffinfilms.com/>". Yes, but that makes no sense. I said that [the things sold in the US as 'English muffins'] are intended to resemble [British 'muffins']. Eric then said 'if ['English muffins'] are meant to resemble anything, it's a crumpet' - which is quite incorrect. They are *meant* to resemble [British 'muffins']; it's merely a coincidence and/or a shame that what they *actually* resemble is a crumpet. He then suggested that they don't resemble 'a muffin, if by 'muffin' you mean...' and gave an example of something that is not a [British 'muffin'] i.e. not what I was talking about in the first place. I have no idea why Eric thinks I might have been talking about such a thing; what I see on that page is a bun tin with cake cases inside it - if you hover over the cake case a cake fills it. That's not a [British 'muffin'] nor is it what I was suggesting [the things sold in the US as 'English muffins'] are intended to resemble. (He might just as well have linked me to a page of roast chickens and pointed out that they don't resemble those either.) In simpler terms, A is intended to resemble B. Eric said no, it's intended to resemble C and provided a link to a picture of *D* to show me why A 'isn't' B. Doesn't work. Jac The Jacqui entity posted thusly: >> The Jacqui entity posted thusly: >> >> The Jacqui entity posted thusly: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >intended to resemble C and provided a link to a picture of *D* to show >me why A 'isn't' B. Doesn't work. Nonetheless, the "if" in his statement precludes any criticism of the comparison, since the "if" was untrue. > Yes, but that makes no sense. > I said that [the things sold in the US as 'English muffins'] are > intended to resemble [British 'muffins']. You used the word 'muffins' by itself, if I remember aright (and I can't be arsed to go back and look). Therefore, I don't feel I was out of line in assuming American-style muffins, especially as I was unaware of a distinct English variety. > Eric then said 'if ['English muffins'] are meant to resemble anything, > it's a crumpet' - which is quite incorrect. They are *meant* to > resemble [British 'muffins']; it's merely a coincidence and/or a shame > that what they *actually* resemble is a crumpet. You seem awfully sure. Perhaps they were meant to resemble crumpets, but the persons selling them figured your average american wouldn't know what a crumpet was, so figured they were also vaguely similar to a British "muffin". I dunno, I'm just hypothesizing. > He then suggested that they don't resemble 'a muffin, if by > 'muffin' you mean...' and gave an example of something that is not a > [British 'muffin'] i.e. not what I was talking about in the first > place. I have no idea why Eric thinks I might have been talking > about such a thing; Because I remember you using the word 'muffin' on its own, and I didn't have at the time a reference for a British "muffin". I do now, and won't make that mistake again. The only other reference I had for 'muffin' was given by the URL I provided. > what I see on that page is a bun tin with cake cases inside it - if > you hover over the cake case a cake fills it. That's not a [British > 'muffin'] nor is it what I was suggesting [the things sold in the US > as 'English muffins'] are intended to resemble. (He might just as > well have linked me to a page of roast chickens and pointed out that > they don't resemble those either.) Yes, but roast chickens aren't called "muffins", and what I pointed to is, at least in the US. > In simpler terms, A is intended to resemble B. Eric said no, it's > intended to resemble C and provided a link to a picture of *D* to show > me why A 'isn't' B. Doesn't work. You said A is intended to resemble B; I said no, it's intended to resemble C, and here's a picture of what I thought you meant by B. There's a difference. -=Eric > > Yes, but that makes no sense. > > I said that [the things sold in the US as 'English muffins'] are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > out of line in assuming American-style muffins, especially as I was > unaware of a distinct English variety. But that's precisely what I was trying to tell the poster I was replying to - there is an English version, they're called 'muffins' (because 'English' would be redundant), and they are "very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a fried egg and lime pickle". How on earth could you imagine I would be referring to American-style muffins with that serving suggestion?? > > Eric then said 'if ['English muffins'] are meant to resemble anything, > > it's a crumpet' - which is quite incorrect. They are *meant* to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > know what a crumpet was, so figured they were also vaguely similar to > a British "muffin". I dunno, I'm just hypothesizing. Well, I've bought and eaten both. I've made the original version from scratch, and read recipes for the US version (they differ, which is why the US version has a different texture inside). I've also been in AUE for years and had this conversation several times. > > He then suggested that they don't resemble 'a muffin, if by > > 'muffin' you mean...' and gave an example of something that is not a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and won't make that mistake again. The only other reference I had for > 'muffin' was given by the URL I provided. The whole of Google didn't give you anything else? Not even http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muffin ? They make the distinction in the first paragraph. And, as mentioned before, because I mentioned *buttering them and eating them with a fried egg and pickle*. A bit of a clue that I was still talking about the bread-like version, IMO. YMMV but then you'd be the one getting accusations of pregnancy. > > In simpler terms, A is intended to resemble B. Eric said no, it's > > intended to resemble C and provided a link to a picture of *D* to show [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > resemble C, and here's a picture of what I thought you meant by B. > There's a difference. And again: I said the things sold as A in the US are intended to resemble B. What about D makes you think it even *slightly* resembles B? Don't you think the picture you offered ought to look at least a little bit like B for the suggestion to make any sense? As it is, a roast chicken would have been about as apt. Jac > And again: I said the things sold as A in the US are intended to > resemble B. What about D makes you think it even *slightly* resembles > B? Nothing. That was my point. -=Eric > Yes, but roast chickens aren't called "muffins", and what I pointed to > is, at least in the US. I have fond memories of a mule. SignatureRob Bannister >> Yes, but roast chickens aren't called "muffins", and what I pointed to >> is, at least in the US. > > I have fond memories of a mule. Distant memories, I hope. It's no longer legal. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. >>> Yes, but roast chickens aren't called "muffins", and what I pointed to >>> is, at least in the US. >> >> I have fond memories of a mule. > > Distant memories, I hope. It's no longer legal. Er, actually, I think it was Annette I was in love with, even if I was only about 8 or 9. SignatureRob Bannister > don't slice a crumpet, the holes are visible on top and go right > through to almost the base of the item They seem to be getting more and more that way. Specially designed to drip butter* all over your nice clean clothes. * or cheese - I am rather partial to cheese on crumpets. SignatureRob Bannister >> don't slice a crumpet, the holes are visible on top and go right >> through to almost the base of the item [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >* or cheese - I am rather partial to cheese on crumpets. Marmite! (with one or both of the above). SignatureOn-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon >> don't slice a crumpet, the holes are visible on top and go right >> through to almost the base of the item [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >* or cheese - I am rather partial to cheese on crumpets. An opening for closing a verbal loop here -- fruit butter, as in Tony's apple butter, is almost the same thing as fruit cheese (apple cheese, quince cheese). The cheese versions are just a little more solid. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! >>> don't slice a crumpet, the holes are visible on top and go right >>> through to almost the base of the item [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > apple butter, is almost the same thing as fruit cheese (apple cheese, > quince cheese). The cheese versions are just a little more solid. Perhaps someone can now explain to me the difference between lemon cheese and lemon curd. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>> don't slice a crumpet, the holes are visible on top and go right >>>> through to almost the base of the item [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Perhaps someone can now explain to me the difference between lemon >cheese and lemon curd. And what happens to the lemon whey? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> don't slice a crumpet, the holes are visible on top and go right >>>>> through to almost the base of the item [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >And what happens to the lemon whey? The lemon dies intestate, so there is none. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! > >>> don't slice a crumpet, the holes are visible on top and go right > >>> through to almost the base of the item > >> > >> They seem to be getting more and more that way. Specially designed to > >> drip butter* all over your nice clean clothes. I once read that they were meant to be like that: keep a pile of them hot with a lump of butter on top, and the butter would melt all the way through. A bit improbable, I think. Warburton's crumpets have much smaller holes (in fact, I suppose that means they're more muffiny), and are a bit too doughy in the middle. Good flavour, though. > >> * or cheese - I am rather partial to cheese on crumpets. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Perhaps someone can now explain to me the difference between lemon > cheese and lemon curd. I've wondered, too. The only book I have which mentions both says "Lemon cheese -- see Lemon curd". The only Ggl hit I looked at had two recipes for each, and the "cheeses" didn't use the lemon peel, while the "curds" did: http://www.blunham.demon.co.uk/Yorksgen/Recipes/PreservesandJams/index.html Neither seems to be in Beeton 1906, which was a surprise. Larousse Gastro has only curd. SignatureMike. >> > The things they are intended to resemble, however, exist and are just >> > called 'muffins'. Very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >through to almost the base of the item, and the texture is quite >rubbery when uncooked. A typical Australian crumpet can be seen here: http://www.coles.com.au/cmi/recipe.asp?rid=739 They are generally the same as the English ones but appear to be not quite as tall. Two will fit in a teaster. We also don't tear or slice them, they are topped not filled. Not bad with Vegemite but most people put honey on them. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > A typical Australian crumpet can be seen here: > > http://www.coles.com.au/cmi/recipe.asp?rid=739 Vus? You people don't have bagels that you have to eat lox on a crumpet? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> A typical Australian crumpet can be seen here: >> >> http://www.coles.com.au/cmi/recipe.asp?rid=739 > > Vus? You people don't have bagels that you have to eat lox on a crumpet? I found the "2 tspn fresh Dill, finely chopped and extra to serve" interesting. "Extra to serve" has no obvious meaning to me; Google shows that it's a UK and Aus recipe-ism. Does it mean "you can use more than what's called for if you want"? SignatureSalvatore Volatile The Salvatore Volatile entity posted thusly: >>> A typical Australian crumpet can be seen here: >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >that it's a UK and Aus recipe-ism. Does it mean "you can use more than >what's called for if you want"? I'm going to hazard a guess that it means to either "chop a little more", or "reserve part of the 2 tspn" to serve separately, or as a garnish on top. Aha! Looking at the recipe, I see, at the bottom, "Top with extra dill and serve immediately." >>> A typical Australian crumpet can be seen here: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > shows that it's a UK and Aus recipe-ism. Does it mean "you can use > more than what's called for if you want"? No, it means put 2tsp in the recipe, and then sprinkle some extra over the top when serving. I rarely bother with that bit. >>>> A typical Australian crumpet can be seen here: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >No, it means put 2tsp in the recipe, and then sprinkle some extra over >the top when serving. I rarely bother with that bit. Apropos of which, I saw a documentary about Windsor Castle the other day in which a factotum revealed that the Queen likes her beef very well done, so parsely is cunningly prinkled onto her meat before it leaves the kitchen so the waiters don't inadvertently serve her any horrid pink bits. SignatureArchie Valparaiso >the Queen likes her beef very >well done, so parsely is sprinkled No, I don't know whether it's sprinkled liberally or sparseley. SignatureArchie Valparaiso >>the Queen likes her beef very >>well done, so parsely is sprinkled > > No, I don't know whether it's sprinkled liberally or sparseley. Ain't chives; 's parsely. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> the Queen likes her beef very >> well done, so parsely is sprinkled > > No, I don't know whether it's sprinkled liberally or sparseley. Sage might know. It's a pity that Rosemary left us all that thyme ago. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > Apropos of which, I saw a documentary about Windsor Castle the other > day in which a factotum revealed that the Queen likes her beef very > well done, so parsely is cunningly prinkled onto her meat before it > leaves the kitchen so the waiters don't inadvertently serve her any > horrid pink bits. I was going to ask how the parsley helped but I realised it's a clue to the waiters that that particular steak is hers. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> Apropos of which, I saw a documentary about Windsor Castle the other >> day in which a factotum revealed that the Queen likes her beef very [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I was going to ask how the parsley helped but I realised it's a clue to >the waiters that that particular steak is hers. Yes. (I was so pleased with the "horrid pink bits" bit that I forgot to convey the information clearly. I really must stop doing that.) SignatureArchie Valparaiso >>> well done, so parsely is cunningly prinkled onto her meat before it > >Yes. (I was so pleased with the "horrid pink bits" bit that I forgot >to convey the information clearly. I really must stop doing that.) Well, I thought "prinkled" was the best bit. Katy >>>> well done, so parsely is cunningly prinkled onto her meat before it >> >>Yes. (I was so pleased with the "horrid pink bits" bit that I forgot >>to convey the information clearly. I really must stop doing that.) > >Well, I thought "prinkled" was the best bit. Yes, I get so excited I miss out vital etters. SignatureArchie Valparaiso Archie Valparaiso filted: >>>>> well done, so parsely is cunningly prinkled onto her meat before it >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Yes, I get so excited I miss out vital etters. Maybe you ought to start running it through a sell checker....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > > Apropos of which, I saw a documentary about Windsor Castle the other > > day in which a factotum revealed that the Queen likes her beef very [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I was going to ask how the parsley helped but I realised it's a clue to > the waiters that that particular steak is hers. Yes, my first thought was, "They must use a lot of parseley to cover up the pink bits." About two seconds later, the other shoe dropped. -=Eric The Eric Schwartz entity posted thusly: >> > Apropos of which, I saw a documentary about Windsor Castle the other >> > day in which a factotum revealed that the Queen likes her beef very [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Yes, my first thought was, "They must use a lot of parseley to cover >up the pink bits." About two seconds later, the other shoe dropped. Could you help me parse that garnish? > The Eric Schwartz entity posted thusly: > >Yes, my first thought was, "They must use a lot of parseley to cover > >up the pink bits." About two seconds later, the other shoe dropped. > > Could you help me parse that garnish? Not if you keep yacc'ing away at me like that. -=Eric >>Apropos of which, I saw a documentary about Windsor Castle the other >>day in which a factotum revealed that the Queen likes her beef very [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I was going to ask how the parsley helped but I realised it's a clue to > the waiters that that particular steak is hers. You'd think she'd have one of those plates with photos of her and Philip getting married. Now, I'm beginning to wonder whether she even uses her jubilee mug. SignatureRob Bannister >>>Apropos of which, I saw a documentary about Windsor Castle the other >>>day in which a factotum revealed that the Queen likes her beef very [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >getting married. Now, I'm beginning to wonder whether she even uses her >jubilee mug. Well, I know for sure that she uses commemorative Coronation spoons to stir her tea. I was fortunate enough to find a stall in Camden Passage where they were selling these spoons with the guarantee that she had used it. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>A typical Australian crumpet can be seen here: >> >>http://www.coles.com.au/cmi/recipe.asp?rid=739 > > Vus? You people don't have bagels that you have to eat lox on a crumpet? Maybe there are real bagels in Australia, but mostly they are bagel-shaped rolls. The only difference between them and normal rolls seems to be the very tough crust and chewiness of the interior. I prefer smoked salmon with bread anyway. You can get more on. Lachsschinken, on the other hand, requires rye bread. SignatureRob Bannister > A typical Australian crumpet can be seen here: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > them, they are topped not filled. Not bad with Vegemite but most > people put honey on them. We also have square ones in Australia. They tend to fit the toaster better, though my current toaster takes pretty large items anyway. SignatureRob Bannister bopeepsheep@gmail.com had it: > > Like English muffins. Ever come across anything resembling an "English > > muffin" in England? There are, of course, things called muffins that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > called 'muffins'. Very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a > fried egg and lime pickle. (Yes, really.) It's important to tear a muffin before toasting it, rather than slicing it cleanly. I think this is because it increases the surface area for the butter. SignatureDavid ===== Nope. Gravity under Vista got worse. Back to XP. > bopeepsheep@gmail.com had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > slicing it cleanly. I think this is because it increases the surface > area for the butter. And it's very annoying that most American restaurants (including fast-food joints) don't do this, and/or use English-muffin-shaped objects that can't be split this way (which are probably pre-sliced at the bakery). The Thomas's brand ones come "fork split" ready to tear apart. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. On Jan 5, 2:11 pm, "Jacqui" > The things sold in the USA as 'English > muffins' are abominable and shouldn't be eaten by anyone, and aren't > like anything else in the universe. They appear to be aiming for all > the worst aspects of a muffin crossed with a crumpet, and are usually > served burned IME. They aren't bad if what you need is a reasonable portion of tolerably unsweetened bread and your alternative were some sugary disaster like Wonder Bread or "muffins". > The things they are intended to resemble, however, exist and are just > called 'muffins'. Very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a > fried egg and lime pickle. (Yes, really.) Yabbut you get all that horrible sweet stuff with it. > called 'muffins'. Very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a > fried egg and lime pickle. (Yes, really.) Um... You're not in what they once called "an interesting condition", are you? SignatureRob Bannister > > called 'muffins'. Very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a > > fried egg and lime pickle. (Yes, really.) > > Um... You're not in what they once called "an interesting condition", > are you? No, no Smaller Clangers on the way. I first tried the fried-egg-lime-pickle-muffin combination after watching Red Dwarf (that makes two mentions in one thread, I think; the third time will probably involve toast) where a fried-egg-chilli-chutney-sandwich was mentioned as a great hangover cure. We decided it sounded tasty, and improvised with what we had. It's really extremely good. Jac Jacqui <bopeepsheep@gmail.com> wrote, in part: > > > called 'muffins'. Very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a > > > fried egg and lime pickle. (Yes, really.) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I first tried the fried-egg-lime-pickle-muffin combination after > watching Red Dwarf... Ah! You were stoned. Now it makes sense. SignatureSML >>>called 'muffins'. Very tasty, whether hot and buttered or cold with a >>>fried egg and lime pickle. (Yes, really.) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cure. We decided it sounded tasty, and improvised with what we had. > It's really extremely good. I suppose I'll have to give it a try now. I am partial to hot lime pickle and cheese; it just never occurred to me to try it with fried egg. Only one problem: I have never like muffins (apart from the American cup-cake kind), so I suppose I'll have to use bread. SignatureRob Bannister >>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>London restaurants. > > I've never seen it in London, or anywhere else in the UK for that > matter. I was quite intrigued when I first came across it in the US. What is it? I have finally managed to overcome my life-long confusion of "boil" and "broil", even though "broil" is a non-existent word in any dialect I speak, so I'm assuming it must be a very small portion of roasted or barbecued steak. SignatureRob Bannister >>>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >What is it? Many things to many people. See: http://bbq.about.com/od/steaks/a/aa101604a.htm for a suitably "it could be this or it could be that" explanation. Two common factors: the meat is always marinated and the cooked meat is cut cross-grain into thin slices. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>>>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>>London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the meat is always marinated and the cooked meat is cut cross-grain > into thin slices. Interesting. I wonder how it got it's "London" name, since few of the ingredients, apart from the meat itself, would have been readily available in London in those days. The whole description sounded rather like a stir-fry dish. SignatureRob Bannister >>>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > dialect I speak, so I'm assuming it must be a very small portion of > roasted or barbecued steak. Portions of thin cross-grain slices from a large steak-like hunk of meat "grilled" underdone in your dialect, I expect. It can also be "grilled" rare in my dialect (BrE barbecued). SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>>London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >It can also be "grilled" rare in my dialect (BrE barbecued). Grilling is not the same as barbecuing. Grilling has the flames, or red-hot element, above the food; barbecuing has the flames beneath. According to COD, broiling can be either of the above - 'cooking meat or fish by exposure to direct heat'. SignatureRobin Herts, England >>>>>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>>>London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Grilling is not the same as barbecuing. But it is...to Roland, to me, and to all Americans. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>>>>>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>>>>London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > But it is...to Roland, to me, and to all Americans. <Cue patriotic music.> SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. The Roland Hutchinson entity posted thusly: >>>>>>>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>>>>>London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > ><Cue patriotic music.> Make that "Oh Canada" too. Grilling==barbecuing, while broiling is what we call searing by heat applied from above. >>>>>>>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>>>>>London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > <Cue patriotic music.> As Heine almost said, "Ich grille nicht". It's not cricket! SignatureRay UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1050 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! >>>>>>>>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>>>>>>London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > As Heine almost said, "Ich grille nicht". It's not cricket! That's what's known as a "growler" in BrE, nicht wahr? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >Grilling is not the same as barbecuing. > > But it is...to Roland, to me, and to all Americans. It's not to me, though in informal usage, I equate them, mainly to avoid annoying people who don't know the difference. However, the difference I draw is different from the one Robin mentioned. To me, barbecuing is slow-cooking with generally indirect heat. You cannot barbecue a pork loin in less than 3 hours, for instance. Any method of cooking involving propane is grilling, as is any method involving charcoal where the cooking takes less than an hour and a half. Maybe two. -=Eric >> >Grilling is not the same as barbecuing. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > charcoal where the cooking takes less than an hour and a half. Maybe > two. I completely agree with this -- it is my usage, in AmE, though it does mark one as a bit of a barbecue purist/maven. However, the sentence orignally referenced above is meant as "grilling (BrE) is not the same as barbecuing (BrE)", which is equivalent to "(domestic) broiling (AmE) is not the same as grilling (AmE)". This is a true assertion. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>Grilling is not the same as barbecuing. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > difference I draw is different from the one Robin mentioned. To me, > barbecuing is slow-cooking with generally indirect heat. I'd have to use a longer phrase like "cooking in a kettle" or a made-up word like "Webbering" for that. I thought of "slow-barbecuing", but that doesn't sound right. Before the invention of (up to $7000) stainless steel gadgets for your "outdoor entertainment area", barbecuing invariably called up an image of logs and flames, at least in Australia. My best barbecue plate was an old disc ploughshare that required at 4 empty beer cans to support it before I could start cooking. SignatureRob Bannister > > It's not to me, though in informal usage, I equate them, mainly to > > avoid annoying people who don't know the difference. However, the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'd have to use a longer phrase like "cooking in a kettle" or a > made-up word like "Webbering" for that. Why kettle? The food itself lays on a grill, as a rule (though sometimes it is turned on a spit), and the devices it's made in generally resemble what I'd call a kettle in no way. Here's a .uk example of the sort of gadget I'm referring to: http://www.barrel-barbecue.co.uk/ -=Eric >>>It's not to me, though in informal usage, I equate them, mainly to >>>avoid annoying people who don't know the difference. However, the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > http://www.barrel-barbecue.co.uk/ The only ones I've seen with a lid like that are the newer, incredibly expensive stainless steel gadgets. No doubt, by now, there are cheaper clones around, but I'm still stuck with my wooden-framed gas barbie, with a genuine Webber for long cooking. Spit-roasting I think of as something completely different - only done on special occasions when you cook a whole lamb, goat or, when very brave, a pig. You can hire them from many butchers, but most people know someone who's got one. Normally, you need to borrow the someone as well, as most people have no idea how cook with a spit. I remember one party when the pig was served, still half-raw at about 1 am, but by that time most of the guests were thoroughly pickled. SignatureRob Bannister The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: >>>>It's not to me, though in informal usage, I equate them, mainly to >>>>avoid annoying people who don't know the difference. However, the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >brave, a pig. You can hire them from many butchers, but most people know >someone who's got one. Surely you'd lose the damage deposit after you cooked the thing? > The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Surely you'd lose the damage deposit after you cooked the thing? Oh, spit, as some people say. There's a butcher's near with a large sign reading "Spit hire" which I always misread as "Spit here". SignatureRob Bannister >>>>It's not to me, though in informal usage, I equate them, mainly to >>>>avoid annoying people who don't know the difference. However, the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >when the pig was served, still half-raw at about 1 am, but by that time >most of the guests were thoroughly pickled. There was a time (1960s in the UK) when many (most?) cookers came equipped with a spit-roaster, often in the oven. At that time I also thought that stand-alone cookers were better designed than they are today. Not long after my first marriage in 1963 we bought a Moffat (the only thing I've ever bought on hire-purchase) that cost £120, quite a large sum then. The good design, I think, came from the grill, spit and all of the cooker controls being at eye-level, making them most convenient, and out of reach of toddlers' fingers. Some 16 years later, after we had taken it to France with us, we thought we'd get a replacement cooker, somewhat more modern, and we sold the Moffat to our next-door neighbours who brought it back to the UK with them. I was surprised, when we went to D'Arty, a large chain of white goods and electronics stores in France, to find that cookers no longer had rotisseries or eye-level grills. I bought a separate free-standing rotisserie by Moulinex that looked like a microwave until you examined it closely. I think spit-roasting is excellent for chickens and rolled, boned joints, and I miss the Moulinex, which went wrong and would have cost a fortune to fix here in the UK because the parts had to be shipped from France. SignatureRobin Herts, England docrobin@ntlworld.com had it: > There was a time (1960s in the UK) when many (most?) cookers came > equipped with a spit-roaster, often in the oven. At that time I also [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > wrong and would have cost a fortune to fix here in the UK because the > parts had to be shipped from France. The (Spanish-made) cooker which was fitted into our French villa by the builder has a rotisserie in the oven. It's the first one I've ever owned. The grill, however, is in the top of the oven, which is inconvenient. I think the British use a grill more than other nations. SignatureDavid ===== > docrobin@ntlworld.com had it: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > inconvenient. I think the British use a grill more than other > nations. We had an AEG cooker when we bought our first house. My brother-in-law was working for BMW at the time, and AEG supplied all the computer diagnostic equipment that BMW dealers used, so our stove arrived as "computer equipment". Unfortunately, the operating instructions were in German. It came with a separate grill element that had to be plugged in to the roof of the oven, and a rotisserie that could be plugged into the oven. We only used the rotisserie a few times, because it took forever to roast, and had to operate with the oven door open, which was not very convenient in our small kitchen. The stove top had a lid that you could put down to cover the hotplates, which was a nice feature. During a party, my brother sat on the stove top, not really realising what it was. He inadvertently switched on one of the hotplates while he was sitting there. That was entertaining. Fran [...] >The stove top had a lid that you could put down to cover the hotplates, >which was a nice feature. During a party, my brother sat on the stove >top, not really realising what it was. He inadvertently switched on one >of the hotplates while he was sitting there. That was entertaining. Proving or disproving the boiled frog theory? SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > Not long after my first marriage in 1963 we bought a Moffat... Strange -- I got a Moffat with my marriage, too. And now I have two more. SignatureSML >>> Portions of thin cross-grain slices from a large steak-like hunk of >>> meat "grilled" underdone in your dialect, I expect. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > But it is...to Roland, to me, and to all Americans. But not to Brits, and that's what Roland seems to be saying (grilled - BrE barbecued). SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>> Portions of thin cross-grain slices from a large steak-like hunk of >>>> meat "grilled" underdone in your dialect, I expect. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > But not to Brits, and that's what Roland seems to be saying (grilled - > BrE barbecued). Yes, that's what I meant to say. I think someone who didn't know that "my dialect" meant a variety American English could easily become confused, however. I should have been clearer. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> Portions of thin cross-grain slices from a large steak-like hunk of >>>> meat "grilled" underdone in your dialect, I expect. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >But not to Brits, and that's what Roland seems to be saying (grilled - >BrE barbecued). If one lurks or reads aue long enough, one gets to feel that the average American could not function language-wise in the UK. The visitor would constantly be using terms not grasped and hearing terms not understood. It would get to the point, in dining for example, where the best thing to do would be to walk around the other tables and point to things that looked good and make that hand gesture of putting something in the mouth to the waiter. (Provided, of course, that the person taking the meal order in an English restaurant is called a "waiter".) Strangely enough, in the trips that I made to the UK before becoming a SRR in aue, I never had a problem communicating or understanding the natives. If any of the native laughed at me, they were at least gracious enough to turn away before doing so and pretend they were coughing. The only time that did have to resort to pointing was my first time in a pub. Unsure of what "bitter" was or looked like, and not liking the sound of it, I did point to a glass of what looked like what I'd like and said "I'll have one of those". Whatever the gentleman was drinking suited me quite well. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: > If one lurks or reads aue long enough, one gets to feel that the > average American could not function language-wise in the UK. The [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that the person taking the meal order in an English restaurant is > called a "waiter".) That might sound like a parody, but it's perfectly normal behaviour for those of us who travel in Europe and beyond. I've had to resort to pointing in countries where I couldn't find any common language for communication; in Japan many restaurants have plastic replicas of the dishes in the window, so you can order what you want by taking the waiter outside and pointing. > Strangely enough, in the trips that I made to the UK before becoming a > SRR in aue, I never had a problem communicating or understanding the > natives. That's because most UK natives are at least partly fluent in US English. We all spend most of our spare time glued to US TV programmes and films, you know. > If any of the native laughed at me, they were at least > gracious enough to turn away before doing so and pretend they were [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and said "I'll have one of those". Whatever the gentleman was > drinking suited me quite well. What was it? SignatureDavid ===== the Omrud filted: >tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >What was it? ObStarTrek: it was green....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >to pointing in countries where I couldn't find any common language >for communication; I *have* done the pointy thing. Several times in Germany and Austria. While English-speakers were always available, dish names do not often translate easily and are not that easy to pronounce. There can several things on the menu with schwein as part of the word, but I want the schwein thing on that table that looks tasty. >That's because most UK natives are at least partly fluent in US >English. We all spend most of our spare time glued to US TV >programmes and films, you know. I'm sure that American TV programs were aired in the UK in the 60s, but I don't think it was quite as prevalent as it is now. Mostly American Westerns in the 60s, wasn't it? SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > but I don't think it was quite as prevalent as it is now. Mostly > American Westerns in the 60s, wasn't it? Off the top of my head, from my misspent youth: Bewitched, I Love Lucy, I Married Joan - all those programmes set in spacious American houses with modern kitchens full of gadgets... Dr Kildare, Marcus Welby MD - rather different from the NHS.. Hawaii 5-0, Perry Mason, Ironside - a bit of a contrast to Dixon of Dock Green... Saw "The Prairie Home Companion" at the weekend - wonderful film for a Garrison Keillor fan like me. Maryl Steep and Lily Tomlin were excellent. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> I'm sure that American TV programs were aired in the UK in the 60s, >> but I don't think it was quite as prevalent as it is now. Mostly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Bewitched, I Love Lucy, I Married Joan - all those programmes set in >spacious American houses with modern kitchens full of gadgets... Dragnet, Man in a Suitcase, The Fugitive, The Beverly Hillbillies, My Favourite Martian, Mr. Ed, The Addams Family, The Munsters, The Monkees, The Andy Williams Show, Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, Dragnet...and, for the kids, Casey Jones, Top Cat, The Flintstones, Yogi Bear, The Jetsons, Huckleberry Hound.... SignatureArchie Valparaiso >>> I'm sure that American TV programs were aired in the UK in the 60s, >>> but I don't think it was quite as prevalent as it is now. Mostly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Dragnet, Man in a Suitcase Oops. I meant *Have Gun Will Travel* -- *Man in a Suitcase* was a home-grown faux Americana effort with an American F-list leading male actor (one Richard Bradford, whose previous sole claim to fame had been a bit part in one episode of *Gunsmoke*). The fabola theme music was by Ron Grainger -- as was most fabola theme music of the era, come to that. Opening titles, incl. fabola theme, here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZeyFPIjdvuQ (Doncha love the IMDB/YouTube combo? If this isn't what they mean by Internet 2.0, it should be.) SignatureArchie Valparaiso As a general reply to all of the replies listing the American television shows that were shown in the UK in the 60s...On behalf of all Americans, I apologize. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > As a general reply to all of the replies listing the American > television shows that were shown in the UK in the 60s...On behalf of > all Americans, I apologize. Why? There were some great shows there and I personally had hours of fun and entertainment every week from American imports. Of course, those were the days when there were only two channels and, IIRC, a restriction on how much imported stuff could be shown so we tended to get stuff that was worth watching. Now there are hundreds of channels to fill you're sending us some right sh.t. Stop it. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> As a general reply to all of the replies listing the American >> television shows that were shown in the UK in the 60s...On behalf of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Now there are hundreds of channels to fill you're sending us some right >sh.t. Stop it. Based on what I see offered on BBCA, your channels are filled with specialized teams of house remodelers. I think tonight's presentation is a crack team of door knocker replacers going house-to-house in Luton. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: > >> As a general reply to all of the replies listing the American > >> television shows that were shown in the UK in the 60s...On behalf of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > is a crack team of door knocker replacers going house-to-house in > Luton. That is true. Except that there are dozens of such teams. SignatureDavid ===== >>As a general reply to all of the replies listing the American >>television shows that were shown in the UK in the 60s...On behalf of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Now there are hundreds of channels to fill you're sending us some right > sh.t. Stop it. Isn't it part of the commercial deal that for every decent programme, they have buy ten crap ones? I do agree that, in those days, I did enjoy most of the American offerings. SignatureRob Bannister >>> As a general reply to all of the replies listing the American >>> television shows that were shown in the UK in the 60s...On behalf of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > they have buy ten crap ones? I do agree that, in those days, I did > enjoy most of the American offerings. Well, it obviously is now. In the days of yore, there were few duds. Unless, of course, you didn't like Western series of which there seemed to be several hundred. I loved them and can still sing from memory many of the theme songs. Don't tempt me. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > Well, it obviously is now. In the days of yore, there were few duds. Unless, > of course, you didn't like Western series of which there seemed to be > several hundred. I loved them and can still sing from memory many of the > theme songs. > Don't tempt me. Now you've got me stuck on Rawhide and Muletrain. SignatureRob Bannister >> Well, it obviously is now. In the days of yore, there were few duds. Unless, >> of course, you didn't like Western series of which there seemed to be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Now you've got me stuck on Rawhide and Muletrain. I was in the Operating Room Supervisor's office in the hospital in Stuart, Florida when Vaughan Monroe was rushed into surgery. He died on the table; bled out because of esophageal varices. Everyone was humming (Ghost) Riders in the Sky in tribute. It was daytime, so no one thought of "Racing With The Moon". Had he died in his native state of Ohio, I suppose they would have hummed "Let It Snow, Let It Snow". Or, possibly, "Black Leather Trousers and Motorcycle Boots". SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >> Well, it obviously is now. In the days of yore, there were few >> duds. Unless, of course, you didn't like Western series of which >> there seemed to be several hundred. I loved them and can still sing >> from memory many of the theme songs. Don't tempt me. > > Now you've got me stuck on Rawhide and Muletrain. That era of endless Westerns gave my young brother the ambition to become either a swaggie or a trail boss. When he grew up he discovered that the term "trail boss" was not used in Australia, so he became a swaggie. While I'm no great fan of Westerns, I have to admit that they were far superior to the garden shows, house renovations, and unreality shows like Big Bother that are now all the rage. These days I'm interested only in the news and comedy; and the news is much the same as it was a year ago, while TV comedy in Australia is being suppressed on the grounds that the comedians have been making jokes about the government. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. Peter Moylan filted: >While I'm no great fan of Westerns, I have to admit that they were far >superior to the garden shows, house renovations, and unreality shows >like Big Bother that are now all the rage. These days I'm interested >only in the news and comedy; and the news is much the same as it was a >year ago, while TV comedy in Australia is being suppressed on the >grounds that the comedians have been making jokes about the government. Meanwhile, back in the States, it's becoming increasingly difficult to tell the news programs *from* the comedy shows...and people like Jon Stewart aren't helping matters any....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >>> Well, it obviously is now. In the days of yore, there were few >>> duds. Unless, of course, you didn't like Western series of which [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that the term "trail boss" was not used in Australia, so he became a > swaggie. My father loved Westerns, so he was in his element in those days. He fell asleep in his chair by the fire every night watching one. "Wagon Train", "Rawhide", "Cheyenne", "Sugarfoot", "Maverick", Bronco", and many, many more. I wonder what happened to all those cowboy stars. Someone my mother knew named her first son "Cheyenne". Somehow "Cheyenne Eccles" doesn't have that cowboy ring to it. Fran >>>> Well, it obviously is now. In the days of yore, there were few >>>> duds. Unless, of course, you didn't like Western series of which [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Someone my mother knew named her first son "Cheyenne". Somehow > "Cheyenne Eccles" doesn't have that cowboy ring to it. Several of those names made it to the baptismal font. There was more than one "Bronco" in Manchester as well as a plethora of Cheyennes. Some of them will be grandparents now. Some of those cowboy stars were movie stars coming to the end of a career - like Ward Bond in Wagon Train and John Payne. Others were up-and-comers who got their movie breaks after showing what they could do on the small screen - like Steve McQueen and James Garner, not to mention Clint Eastwood. Clint Walker played Cheyenne Bodie as a guest star as recently as 1995. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > Others were up-and-comers who > got their movie breaks after showing what they could do on the small > screen - like Steve McQueen and James Garner, not to mention Clint Eastwood. > Clint Walker played Cheyenne Bodie as a guest star as recently as 1995. TV must age them. I distinctly remember Clint Eastwood being a very young man. SignatureRob Bannister >> Others were up-and-comers who >> got their movie breaks after showing what they could do on the small [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > TV must age them. I distinctly remember Clint Eastwood being a very > young man. Er, he was. Hence I described him as an up-and-comer who got his movie breaks etc etc. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: >> Well, it obviously is now. In the days of yore, there were few duds. Unless, >> of course, you didn't like Western series of which there seemed to be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Now you've got me stuck on Rawhide and Muletrain. Arrgh! STS, and unfortunately they reminded me of _Bonanza_, _Have Gun, Will Travel_, and _The Rebel_. I'll have these for days. >> As a general reply to all of the replies listing the American >> television shows that were shown in the UK in the 60s...On behalf [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > get stuff that was worth watching. Now there are hundreds of channels > to fill you're sending us some right sh.t. Stop it. The TV shows that are worth watching could all fit on one station, and still leave time for about 20 hours of test pattern per day. An exception could be made for news. Watching news on different channels provides an interesting lesson on how the same information can lead to mutually contradictory conclusions, depending on who's reporting it. I don't have a subscription to cable television, by the way. Whenever I look at what's on offer, I can't see the point, except perhaps for avid sports fans. There are only so many times you can re-watch I Love Loosely. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. [...] > I don't have a subscription to cable television, by the way. Whenever I > look at what's on offer, I can't see the point, except perhaps for avid > sports fans. Tweechizone. Without cable television I would be without the National Geographic channel and the Discovery Science Channel, And, though I'm far from being an avid sports fan, I enjoy having the Fox Soccer Channel. I would not like to go back to the somewhat inferior picture quality of antenna-borne television. The difference is even greater now that we have digital cable. I toyed very briefly with the idea of getting the rooftop disk, but soon dropped it when I found that neither National Geographic nor Discovery Science would be available from that source. >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Geographic nor Discovery Science would be available from >that source. I just get Discovery, rather than Disccovery Science, and I wish it was the other way round. As it is, all the programming seems to consist of variations on "Dan Brown's Top 10 Most Extreme Disasters at Roswell". The History Channel isn't much better: "Top 10 Nazi Bible-Code Assassins on the Titatic" SignatureArchie Valparaiso In alt.usage.english, Archie Valparaiso wrote: >On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 05:14:58 -0800, Bob Cunningham >>On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:47:25 +1100, Peter Moylan >>> I don't have a subscription to cable television, by the way. Whenever I >>> look at what's on offer, I can't see the point, except perhaps for avid >>> sports fans. Ditto. [...] >>I toyed very briefly with the idea of getting the rooftop >>disk, but soon dropped it when I found that neither National [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >The History Channel isn't much better: "Top 10 Nazi Bible-Code >Assassins on the Titatic" I subscribed to Sky for a year to get a "free" dish-'n'-digibox and at that time Discovery and the History Channel were pretty much indistinguishable. History was "Did Hitler Build the Pyramids?"; Discovery was "How Hitler Built the Pyramids". Bravo was quite good. Lots of decent comedies. And I sometimes got hypnotised by the shopping channels - "And that's not all! We'll also throw in a year's supply of car wax!" (Why were all the hucksters on those channels British?) But at the end of my compulsory year (plus two extra months thrown in free in the hope that I'd change my mind) I came away with the impression that Sky is a very well-run company that peddles utter garbage. SignatureV Vinny Burgoo filted: >I subscribed to Sky for a year to get a "free" dish-'n'-digibox and at >that time Discovery and the History Channel were pretty much >indistinguishable. History was "Did Hitler Build the Pyramids?"; >Discovery was "How Hitler Built the Pyramids". Now they've run together and are both running "Remodelling and Redecorating Hitler's Pyramids"....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Vinny Burgoo filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Now they've run together and are both running "Remodelling and Redecorating >Hitler's Pyramids"....r About once a year they have a "shark week" during which we get to see how sharks can be provoked into attacking pyramids, but how they're really just cute wusses the rest of the time. Jitze In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote: >Vinny Burgoo filted: >>I subscribed to Sky for a year to get a "free" dish-'n'-digibox and at >>that time Discovery and the History Channel were pretty much [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Now they've run together and are both running "Remodelling and Redecorating >Hitler's Pyramids"....r "... , With Trinny and Suzanna". Have they invaded the States yet? Posh totty (or alleged totty) telling grateful plebs how to dress, decorate and have sex. SignatureV > In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Have they invaded the States yet? Posh totty (or alleged totty) telling > grateful plebs how to dress, decorate and have sex. Yes, they show up over here on BBC-America. There is also a US version of "What not to wear" with snide couple telling everyone to dress alike. Fran > Vinny Burgoo filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Now they've run together and are both running "Remodelling and Redecorating > Hitler's Pyramids"....r Followed by "How To Flip Hitler's Pyramids!" SignatureSML >I subscribed to Sky for a year to get a "free" dish-'n'-digibox and at >that time Discovery and the History Channel were pretty much >indistinguishable. History was "Did Hitler Build the Pyramids?"; >Discovery was "How Hitler Built the Pyramids". I thought the discovery channel was all about how Hitler built motorbikes. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > I just get Discovery, rather than Disccovery Science, and I wish it > was the other way round. As it is, all the programming seems to > consist of variations on "Dan Brown's Top 10 Most Extreme Disasters at > Roswell". Don't forget Mythbusters. Last night they were setting model Hindenburgs aflame and trying to get crocodiles to chase the Junior Mythbusters. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) Default User filted: >> I just get Discovery, rather than Disccovery Science, and I wish it >> was the other way round. As it is, all the programming seems to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Hindenburgs aflame and trying to get crocodiles to chase the Junior >Mythbusters. Next season they're going to try it the other way round....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. Mr. Cunningham wrote: >I would not like to go back to the somewhat inferior picture >quality of antenna-borne television. The difference is even >greater now that we have digital cable. The question of quality will be academic after 2009. The quality of the air signal will be the same or even exceed the cable signal then. BTW, the broadcast digital-signal is exceptionally good; it should be, it's in high-definition format. -- It's so nice to know the precise date when your television and recorder will be obsolete. > The question of quality will be academic after 2009. The quality of the > air signal will be the same or even exceed the cable signal then. Not necessarily. You can either run one HDTV channel on a given bit of frequency, or several standard-definition subchannels. The FCC is trying to discourage the latter practice (probably because it doesn't make people want digital tuners), but PBS stations love it-- they can broadcast nature documentaries, children's programming, and Masterpiece Theater all at the same time. 2009, the latest of the several moving targets, will be the day we can only get *digital* TV, which may or may not be HDTV. > BTW, the broadcast digital-signal is exceptionally good; it should > be, it's in high-definition format. ITYM "digital format". HDTV is only one of many options available to broadcasters who send out digital TV signals. -=Eric > Mr. Cunningham wrote: > >I would not like to go back to the somewhat inferior picture > >quality of antenna-borne television. The difference is even > >greater now that we have digital cable. > The question of quality will be academic after 2009. The quality of the > air signal will be the same or even exceed the cable signal then. How will they ever completely avoid multipath and resultant ghosts?dsss > BTW, the > broadcast digital-signal is exceptionally good; it should be, it's in > high-definition format. Again, how do they completely eliminate problems with multipath? >> Mr. Cunningham wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >How will they ever completely avoid multipath and resultant >ghosts?dsss (Guessing) Because it's digital -- and a one or a zero is either there or it isn't? I've seen very occasional blips in digital terrestrial signals when the picture breaks up into approximately one-inch squares for a split second, but otherwise the picture is always DVD perfect. SignatureArchie Valparaiso In alt.usage.english, Archie Valparaiso wrote: >On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 09:59:21 -0800, Bob Cunningham >>On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 15:11:18 GMT, arnow@iname.com (Murray >>> Mr. Cunningham wrote: >>> >I would not like to go back to the somewhat inferior picture >>> >quality of antenna-borne television. The difference is even [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >signals when the picture breaks up into approximately one-inch squares >for a split second, but otherwise the picture is always DVD perfect. DVD perfect? IMNVCEODTSITUK(HB!), digital terrestrial pictures are compressed more than those sent by satellite and I reckon the latter are compressed more than they should be: you can usually see blocks in large areas of flattish colour. They do it to make room for all the extras like bingo and +1 hour transmissions. SignatureV >Bob Cunningham wrought: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >signals when the picture breaks up into approximately one-inch squares >for a split second, but otherwise the picture is always DVD perfect. It's a little more complicated than that, but that's essentially right. It's much simpler to do noise discrimination on a digital signal than an analog one. The off-air-digital pictures I've seen were very clean where the broadcasters analog signals had serious ghosting problems. >>> Mr. Cunningham wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> The question of quality will be academic after 2009. The quality of the >>> air signal will be the same or even exceed the cable signal then. Note that different dates apply in different countries. >>How will they ever completely avoid multipath and resultant >>ghosts?dsss > >(Guessing) Because it's digital -- and a one or a zero is either there >or it isn't? Yes but. Multipath involves additional, delayed, copies of the digital signal being picked up by the receiver. The digital box needs to be able to separate out one stream of bits from the other(s). Some rather high powered computing (digital signal processing) takes place inside the box. > I've seen very occasional blips in digital terrestrial >signals when the picture breaks up into approximately one-inch squares >for a split second, but otherwise the picture is always DVD perfect. From: http://tinyurl.com/y8lvda Unlike analogue TV signals, which can still be viewed under weak received signal strength conditions or in the presence of interference, DTT pictures and sound will either be perfect, in the process of breaking up or non-existent! DTT reception exhibits a very rapid change from being excellent to disappearing altogether; this phenomenon is usually referred to as the digital cliff or threshold. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> How will they ever completely avoid multipath and resultant >> ghosts?dsss > > (Guessing) Because it's digital -- and a one or a zero is either there > or it isn't? I've seen very occasional blips in digital terrestrial > signals when the picture breaks up into approximately one-inch Can you come and sort out mine? I rarely get pixel drops, but I do get ghosting. We have to remember to watch digital through the video rather than straight otherwise the ghosting can range from faint to reading-the-credits strength. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary spam@lindsayendell.co.uk had it: > >> How will they ever completely avoid multipath and resultant > >> ghosts?dsss [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > than straight otherwise the ghosting can range from faint to > reading-the-credits strength. That's probably caused by interference on the analogue channel you are using between the digibox and the TV. Try changing the output channel on the digibox to something well away from the the range between 55 - 65 (which is where most of the NW TV channels are broadcast) - you'll have to retune the channel on the TV of course. Or use a SCART connection between the digibox and the TV. I'm surprised you can get digital up there what with all the hills and aliens. My parents (in Ludlow) don't even have Channel 5, never mind digital. SignatureDavid ===== In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote: >spam@lindsayendell.co.uk had it: >> Can you come and sort out mine? I rarely get pixel drops, but I do get >> ghosting. We have to remember to watch digital through the video rather [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >and aliens. My parents (in Ludlow) don't even have Channel 5, never >mind digital. (And, Ludlow being Ludlow, they probably aren't allowed to put up a minidish.) I'm about ten miles away. I always thought our reception problems - analogue television so blizzardy it's unwatchable, no "terrestrial" digital television or radio, no mobile phone signals - were entirely due to our being at the bottom of a steepish valley and I'm surprised to hear that Ludlow also has problems. It's out in the open and there are dirty great antennas on the Clee Hills and other local protuberances. Have your parents sought professional advice? (Wot? So they can get Channel 5? Are you mad?) SignatureV hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk had it: > In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (And, Ludlow being Ludlow, they probably aren't allowed to put up a > minidish.) I think they probably are - they live in a modern house near the high school on the edge of town. > I'm about ten miles away. I always thought our reception problems - > analogue television so blizzardy it's unwatchable, no "terrestrial" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Have your parents sought professional advice? (Wot? So they can get > Channel 5? Are you mad?) It's the annual Royal Institution Lectures they want - I have to record the programmes and take them a copy. For some reason, Channel 5 is not on the local transmitters and there's no plan for Freeview either. SignatureDavid ===== In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote: >hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk had it: >> (And, Ludlow being Ludlow, they probably aren't allowed to put up a >> minidish.) > >I think they probably are - they live in a modern house near the high >school on the edge of town. If that's the long straight road coming from Craven Arms, I drove along it today and didn't see a single satellite dish - until, that is, I got to the presumably listed buildings on the Honda Equipe corner near the town centre proper, where there were two, right in your face. Very odd. Fifty yards from the district council offices and the planning department, they were. Perhaps they belong to the council or (whisper) to councillors. SignatureV hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk had it: > In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote: > >hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk had it: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > department, they were. Perhaps they belong to the council or (whisper) > to councillors. Yes, that's the place, but you can't see their house from the main road - they are in a small estate of new houses between the sports centre and the A49. Many of these are occupied by retired folk and I bet there are plenty of dishes, although I've never looked. SignatureDavid ===== >hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk had it: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >centre and the A49. Many of these are occupied by retired folk and I >bet there are plenty of dishes, although I've never looked. Good grief! Every peasant's house in Albania has a satellie dish, even if you see the family driving out in a hay wain. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk hayesmstw@hotmail.com had it: > >Yes, that's the place, but you can't see their house from the main > >road - they are in a small estate of new houses between the sports [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Every peasant's house in Albania has a satellie dish, even if you see the > family driving out in a hay wain. Yes, but the best TV in the UK (in the world?) is to be had for free over the air (you have to pay a TV licence). All you get by subscribing to satellite or cable is much, much more in the way of repeats, stuff which will soon be on terrestrial TV, and crap. SignatureDavid ===== >How will they ever completely avoid multipath and resultant >ghosts?dsss Ghosting is a purely-analogue phenomenon. Digital systems contain extra processing gain to handle impaired signals. (There's a Reed-Solomon ECC in ATSC's 8VSB; the DVB-T system used in TheRestOfTheWorld is based on COFDM, which actually benefits from multipath.) In any case, the digital signal is either decodable or it's not -- there is no in-between state like with analogue. While the MPEG-2 video compression is still lossy, broadcasters in the U.S. have little incentive to crush the life out of their signals, since each station has its own 28.2-Mbit/s multiplex to play with and all five major networks program high-definition during prime time.[1] (Recent FCC rules changes requiring stations to broadcast as much "educational" programming on their subchannels as they are required to on their "main" channel remove nearly all of the remaining incentive commercial stations might have had to add additional video services.) Of course, with most viewership today via cable or satellite anyway, it really doesn't matter how much compression terrestrial broadcasters use. -GAWollman [1] However, PBS stations with only one license in a market are hosed, since they typically want to run all four national digital streams in addition to their regular programming. The result is not pretty. SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > Mr. Cunningham wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It's so nice to know the precise date when your television and recorder > will be obsolete. More difficult in Australia. First, it was going to 2005, then 2007, and now I'm not at all sure. SignatureRob Bannister > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Geographic nor Discovery Science would be available from > that source. I have Dish, and wouldn't do without it (unless they cut some of my fave channels). I think that while I was on cable (Charter) I paid extra for some digital programming and got BBCamerica. Now I get it without an extra charge. Additional bonus, for me, are the "supernumerary" (Highest end of the numbers--9815, -10 or FSTV and LINKTV. Free Speech and Link are pretty open, with much protest programming. In addition, I get UCTV and UWTV, or California and Washington University programming.) I had never heard of the existence of those channels in the 9800 range. I don't know if the other major satellite company in our area (DirectTV) carries them. tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: > As a general reply to all of the replies listing the American > television shows that were shown in the UK in the 60s...On behalf of > all Americans, I apologize. Now see what happens if you mistreat a people like that: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6248835.stm SignatureDavid ===== > tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: > > As a general reply to all of the replies listing the American [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Now see what happens if you mistreat a people like that: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6248835.stm Now that sort of action is really uncalled-for. Couldn't you at least have taken him back? And it's not like we only have to deal with him, but now we get Posh Spice as part of the deal. Somebody should demand a refund. -=Eric >> tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: >> > As a general reply to all of the replies listing the American [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >but now we get Posh Spice as part of the deal. Somebody should demand >a refund. Very recently an article in the LA Times addressed the people of LA in this wise: http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-spw-culpepper11jan12,1,382958.story?coll=la-hea dlines-sports&track=crosspromo ... ... You're getting somebody so hyper-famous that it's possible for Europeans to suffer a mild malaise we might call "Beckham fatigue." Unscientific studies have shown that Beckham fatigue can congeal within six to eight months of taking up residence in England, at a point when the brain absorbs excessive Beckham-and-wife and begins to drown in the frothing impertinence. Then again, you don't have Beckham fatigue, which might just be one reason you're getting Beckham. ... ... Good Luck folks! SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Now see what happens if you mistreat a people like that: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6248835.stm Every time I see "Real Madrid" I wonder if there is a group of impostors out there somewhere claiming they play for Madrid. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: > >tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Every time I see "Real Madrid" I wonder if there is a group of > impostors out there somewhere claiming they play for Madrid. They're the breakaway faction who have refused to recognise the ceasefire with Manchester United. SignatureDavid ===== >> tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Every time I see "Real Madrid" I wonder if there is a group of > impostors out there somewhere claiming they play for Madrid. Moxy Früvous claimed to play for Madrid sometimes, when they were busking in Toronto. King of Spain (Dave as The King) Once I was the King of Spain (Jian) The King of Spain, live in Buffalo (Dave) Oh... my unspeakable wife, Queen Lisa (Murray) Don't mention Lisa. (Dave) I'm telling you I was the King of Spain (Murray) The King a former conehead And now I work at the Pizza Pizza [...] You see late one night when the palace was asleep Out of my royal chambers and into the garden I creep And I wait till the appointed time, when the moon is lighting the pitch At which point my peasant friend, who looks just like me Arrives and we make switch! (rest gasp) (Dave) Prince and pauper, junior and whopper World made up of silver and copper Under my own volition, I took a change of position So next time you drool in the pizza line Remember, slower pizza's more luscious (All) The King of Spain never rushes!!! (Dave) (rest) Once I was the King of Spain now I eat humble pie I was lookin' for off-handed ways to improve us now I eat humble pie I'm telling you I was the King of Spain now I eat humble pie And now I'm jamming with Moxy Fruvous! (rest) Once he was the King of Spain (Jian, fading) Give it up for the King of Spain A sample: http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000002IXP001010/002-9294824-9064814 >>tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Every time I see "Real Madrid" I wonder if there is a group of >impostors out there somewhere claiming they play for Madrid. In Spain they're just called "el Madrid"; "Real" -- which is what they're often called for short in the British press -- is usually seen only as "la Real", referring to the San Sebastian club Real Sociedad. SignatureArchie Valparaiso >>>tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > they're often called for short in the British press -- is usually seen > only as "la Real", referring to the San Sebastian club Real Sociedad. I see Mr Goldenballs is leaving Madrid for LA and his weird wife thinks she's going to become a real celeb. SignatureRob Bannister >>>> tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> seen only as "la Real", referring to the San Sebastian club Real >> Sociedad. So what do they call Atletico Madrid over there? > I see Mr Goldenballs is leaving Madrid for LA and his weird wife > thinks she's going to become a real celeb. I suspect she's too clever to fall for that. But she *will* expect to have a shitload of money for clobber and to hobnob with the A-listers. Much as she does now. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > [about David Beckham's wife] > But she *will* expect to have a shitload of money for > clobber and to hobnob with the A-listers. Much as she > does now. There's yet another item for a UK-US translation guide, "clobber". _Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate_ says Main Entry:1clob£ber Pronunciation [...] Function:noun Etymology:origin unknown Date:1879 slang British : CLOTHES 1 >> [about David Beckham's wife] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Date:1879 > slang British : CLOTHES 1 Strangely, OED says "origin unknown" for the noun. Yet for the verb it has "1. trans. To patch up, cobble ... Hence "clobberer, (a) a patcher of clothes and shoes; (b) one who adds enamelled decoration to porcelain. 1864 Times 3 Nov. 6/6 The duty of the clobberer is to patch, to sew up, and to restore as far as possible the garments to their pristine appearance." It makes sense to me that the clobberer's product is clobber. Partridge says the origin is Yiddish "klbr" SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >> [about David Beckham's wife] > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > It makes sense to me that the clobberer's product is clobber. > Partridge says the origin is Yiddish "klbr" I hope Bob will join us for next week's class, when we shall be discussing "clout". SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>> [about David Beckham's wife] >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I hope Bob will join us for next week's class, when we shall be > discussing "clout". That class has been postponed until the May blossom has flowered or, at any event, no earlier than April 30. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford [...] > > I hope Bob will join us for next week's class, when we shall be > > discussing "clout". > > That class has been postponed until the May blossom has flowered or, at any > event, no earlier than April 30. Ah, controversy! I've now pencilled in June 1. Never bought that crataegus theory. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > > [about David Beckham's wife] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Date:1879 > slang British : CLOTHES 1 This may seem off-topic, but it isn't. Have a gander at: http://youtube.com/watch?v=kcJYJ99QT8c Stay with it to the end. SignatureBob Lieblich And then there's Frontier Bris <http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yj_MGbmS53Q> > > > [about David Beckham's wife] > > > But she *will* expect to have a shitload of money for > > > clobber and to hobnob with the A-listers. Much as she > > > does now. > > There's yet another item for a UK-US translation guide, > > "clobber". _Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate_ says > > Main Entry:1clob£ber > > Pronunciation [...] > > Function:noun > > Etymology:origin unknown > > Date:1879 > > slang British : CLOTHES 1 > This may seem off-topic, but it isn't. Have a gander at: > http://youtube.com/watch?v=kcJYJ99QT8c > Stay with it to the end. I did, all the way to the clever closing "clobber" climax. Fun. Thanks. >> > > [about David Beckham's wife] > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Fun. Thanks. That second bloke, the one who couldn't quite keep a straight face (which is good comedic technique, a hint of loss of control makes the thing funnier), looks, to me, like President Shrub. A bit anyway. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>>>> tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >So what do they call Atletico Madrid over there? Officially "el Atlético de Madrid" or popularly "el Atleti". SignatureArchie Valparaiso >>>>>tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > shitload of money for clobber and to hobnob with the A-listers. Much as she > does now. The article in my paper was entitled "Spend it like Beckham". I understand she is buying property and goodness knows what else before they even leave Spain. SignatureRob Bannister > The article in my paper was entitled "Spend it like Beckham". I understand > she is buying property and goodness knows what else before they even leave > Spain. That's a typical newso pun, based on the film _Bend it Like Beckham_. SignatureRay UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1125 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! >>The article in my paper was entitled "Spend it like Beckham". I understand >>she is buying property and goodness knows what else before they even leave >>Spain. > > That's a typical newso pun, based on the film _Bend it Like Beckham_. Golly! I only saw the film twice. SignatureRob Bannister >>>The article in my paper was entitled "Spend it like Beckham". I understand >>>she is buying property and goodness knows what else before they even leave [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Golly! I only saw the film twice. Was "it" bent the same way each time? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>> tony_cooper213@earthlink.net had it: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > understand she is buying property and goodness knows what else before > they even leave Spain. They're a very shrewd couple and I'd bet they knew they'd be going to the USA some months ago and probably started making their property investments then so they wouldn't be held to ransom. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford [Beckhams moving to the US] > The article in my paper was entitled "Spend it like Beckham". I > understand she is buying property and goodness knows what else before > they even leave Spain. That makes sense. Whenever I've been faced with moving jobs I've arranged somewhere to live beforehand. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > [Beckhams moving to the US] > > > The article in my paper was entitled "Spend it like Beckham". I > > understand she is buying property and goodness knows what else before > > they even leave Spain. Hooray for an uninhibited spender. If I were well on my way to being a billionaire, I too would have fun finding lots of ways to spend money. obaue: If I have 600 million dollars and I want a short phrase to describe my status, what do I say partial billionaire? near billionaire? fractional billionaire? Or maybe just loaded with loot? > That makes sense. Whenever I've been faced with moving jobs I've > arranged somewhere to live beforehand. > [Beckhams moving to the US] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That makes sense. Whenever I've been faced with moving jobs I've > arranged somewhere to live beforehand. It's probably different when you've got a family. Whenever I've moved, I've just gone and stayed in a pub or with friends with my furniture (when I had any) in store until I found a place. Of course, I didn't own a home until fairly recently, and I'm sure that makes a difference. When you're renting, even after 10 years you still feel it's temporary. SignatureRob Bannister >> [Beckhams moving to the US] >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > difference. When you're renting, even after 10 years you still feel > it's temporary. I've only had a family recently. Prior to that, after leaving home at the age of nearly 19, I moved on average once a year. Every time, I found a place to move /to/ before leaving the old place. Otherwise I wouldn't have had a place to move to at all. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>[Beckhams moving to the US] >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > found a place to move /to/ before leaving the old place. Otherwise I > wouldn't have had a place to move to at all. I suppose I was lucky at that age in that my parents lived only 25 miles outside London, so I could always go home back then. Still, even in my middle 40s, I was still renting and waited till I arrived in the new town before looking for a place to live. My last big move was in 1985 when I moved from Albany to Perth (about 400 k). By that time, I did have furniture, but I put it in store and stayed with friends for about 6 weeks till I found a place I liked. My last move was only about 1 k and I did find the place first before even deciding to move. SignatureRob Bannister > I see Mr Goldenballs is leaving Madrid for LA and his weird wife > thinks she's going to become a real celeb. It's all based on a misunderstanding. Somebody told her she was moving to a state of anorexia, so she went and bought the tickets, and by then it was too late to change, and ... well, sometimes you just have to take the thick with the thin. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. >> I see Mr Goldenballs is leaving Madrid for LA and his weird wife >> thinks she's going to become a real celeb. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >it was too late to change, and ... well, sometimes you just have to take >the thick with the thin. There have been several quite good instant jokes in Spain about their move (although some explanation is probably required): Reactions to the Beckhams' departure have been mixed in the Barrio de Salamanca. Although at the top end the news was met with utter indifference, down on Goya and Serrano they've declared three days' official mourning. (Real Madrid's stadium is at the top end of the Barrio de Salamanca. Goya and Serrano streets are the city's Beachamp Place/Bond Street equivalents -- where D&G, Prada, Bulgari, etc. all are, and where Posh was wont to hang out rashly spending her hubby's soft-earned euros.) SignatureArchie Valparaiso In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >> I see Mr Goldenballs is leaving Madrid for LA and his weird wife >> thinks she's going to become a real celeb. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >it was too late to change, and ... well, sometimes you just have to take >the thick with the thin. That's the Beckhams all right. Thick and thin. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > That's the Beckhams all right. Thick and thin. Plus which, he talks really, _really_ funny. SignatureFrank ess >> In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Plus which, he talks really, _really_ funny. Oy! He tokes wheelie, *wheelie* fannay. SignatureArchie Valparaiso > Every time I see "Real Madrid" I wonder if there is a group of > impostors out there somewhere claiming they play for Madrid. It's the old joke, isn't it. Here's the latest football score: Real Madrid, 1; Surreal Madrid, a fish. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary Amethyst Deceiver wibbled: >> Every time I see "Real Madrid" I wonder if there is a group of >> impostors out there somewhere claiming they play for Madrid. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Here's the latest football score: Real Madrid, 1; Surreal Madrid, a > fish. Liverpool 1, Arsenal didn't. (I vaguely remember a whole series of these - Ronnie Barker in one of his Two Ronnies monologues, maybe?) While we're at it: Fake Tennis, real-pain, and real-poo... Jac > Amethyst Deceiver wibbled: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > (I vaguely remember a whole series of these - Ronnie Barker in one of > his Two Ronnies monologues, maybe?) Wolves 8 - Everton drank Coventry 4 - Spurs against East Fife 5 - Forfar, so far, four. SignatureRay UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1112 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! mUs1Ka filted: >Wolves 8 - Everton drank >Coventry 4 - Spurs against >East Fife 5 - Forfar, so far, four. That last reminds me of the headline announcing the latest in a series of cancelled and rescheduled performances of an Tchaikovsky opera: On-again-off-again Onegin Off Again ....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. The mUs1Ka entity posted thusly: >> Amethyst Deceiver wibbled: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Coventry 4 - Spurs against >East Fife 5 - Forfar, so far, four. Sikhs 7, Severn 8 I know, but I liked the sound of it. > The mUs1Ka entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I know, but I liked the sound of it. Australia sucks - New Zealand nul. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> The mUs1Ka entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >Australia sucks - New Zealand nul. Sometime round about 1950 the England football team must have been going through a bad patch, because someone on the Goon Show (it might have been Neddy) announced something like "England 3, Chinese Wanderers 357". It hurt, because it was unlikely back then that the Chinese had any sort of football team. SignatureRobin Herts, England Robin Bignall filted: >Sometime round about 1950 the England football team must have been >going through a bad patch, because someone on the Goon Show (it might >have been Neddy) announced something like "England 3, Chinese >Wanderers 357". It hurt, because it was unlikely back then that the >Chinese had any sort of football team. You mean you lot don't name your teams for groups of people unrepresented on the teams themselves? (viz "Minnesota Vikings", "Green Bay Packers", "Washington Redskins", "Arizona Cardinals")....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >You mean you lot don't name your teams for groups of people unrepresented on the >teams themselves? (viz "Minnesota Vikings", "Green Bay Packers", "Washington >Redskins", "Arizona Cardinals")....r I believe the record will show that the Arizona Cardinals were not named after people, but after birds commonly found in St. Louis. Thus they belong in the same category as the Seattle Seahawks, Indianapolis Colts, Atlanta Falcons, Miami Dolphins, Philadelphia Eagles, Chicago Bears, Denver Broncos, Baltimore Ravens, and so on. On the other hand, you left out the New Orleans Saints, Pittsburgh Steelers, San Francisco 49ers, Kansas City Chiefs, Oakland Raiders, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and Dallas Cowboys. I'm not sure what to make of the Buffalo Bills or the New York Jets. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>You mean you lot don't name your teams for groups of people unrepresented on the >>teams themselves? (viz "Minnesota Vikings", "Green Bay Packers", "Washington [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >named after people, but after birds commonly found in St. Louis. Thus >they belong in the same category as the Seattle Seahawks The original Seahawks were a Miami team, but I don't think it's the same franchise. >Indianapolis Colts, The colts would have been in Baltimore. The colts, in this case, would have been thoroughbreds. (Unlike Irsay) >Atlanta Falcons, Miami Dolphins, Philadelphia Eagles, Chicago >Bears, Denver Broncos, Baltimore Ravens, The Baltimore Ravens are the Cleveland Browns, but re-named to honor Edgar Allen Poe's raven and to avoid a lawsuit with the City of Cleveland. >and so on. On the other >hand, you left out the New Orleans Saints, Pittsburgh Steelers, San >Francisco 49ers, Kansas City Chiefs, Oakland Raiders, Tampa Bay >Buccaneers, and Dallas Cowboys. I'm not sure what to make of the >Buffalo Bills or the New York Jets. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>I believe the record will show that the Arizona Cardinals were not >>named after people, but after birds commonly found in St. Louis. Thus >>they belong in the same category as the Seattle Seahawks > >The original Seahawks were a Miami team, but I don't think it's the >same franchise. Which has nothing to do with the point I was making. (If you were going off in a different direction, sorry.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>>I believe the record will show that the Arizona Cardinals were not >>>named after people, but after birds commonly found in St. Louis. Thus [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Which has nothing to do with the point I was making. (If you were >going off in a different direction, sorry.) I wasn't disputing your point. Just adding comments pertinent to the teams mentioned. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >>>I believe the record will show that the Arizona Cardinals were not > >>>named after people, but after birds commonly found in St. Louis. Thus [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I wasn't disputing your point. Just adding comments pertinent to the > teams mentioned. Which of the US teams' by-names grew spontaneously, and which are the product of marketing? I ask because among the things I find irritating about the commercialisation of BrAusEtc sport is the fake nickname -- or the elevation of a genuine nickname into the team's official moniker. Rugby's the worst offender, but a favourite example comes from English roundball. Reading, the thinking man's Coventry, used to be home to Huntley and Palmer's biscuit factory, so the soccer team once had the vernacular nickname "the Biscuit Men". Too homely for Marketing, so they looked around town and found an imposing statue of a lion commemorating the county's losses at the battle of Maiwand in one of the Occident's suicidal attempts to subdue Afghanistan; they renicknamed the club "the Lions". Given the outfit's then rather sketchy resemblance to the king of beasts, this failed to catch on among the populace. So Marketing cast about again, and spotted that the County Council, _their_ marketing men having discovered the location of Windsor Castle, had started referring to "the Royal County of Berkshire". After profound consultation, they became aware in a flash of inspiration that Reading Football Club played in blue and white: "the Royal Blues" was too long to remember, so "the Royals" was born. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> >>>I believe the record will show that the Arizona Cardinals were not >> >>>named after people, but after birds commonly found in St. Louis. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >about the commercialisation of BrAusEtc sport is the fake nickname -- or >the elevation of a genuine nickname into the team's official moniker. Every US sports team has an official team name. I'm not aware of any team, though, that has an unofficial nickname that is used in place of the official nickname unless it's in jest. For example, the New Orleans Saints were called the New Orleans Aints when they were having losing seasons. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers - also called the Bucs - are sometimes referred to as the Ucks because of their current problems. The only times a team's official nickname is changed is when the franchise moves (The Cleveland Browns became the Baltimore Ravens) or when some sort of social correctness requires it (The Washington Bullets became the Washington Wizards). There are many US teams with Native American terms in their name. Some people feel this is demeaning to our NAs, and some teams have changed from, say, the "Braves" to some animal name. Far too many to list since there have been so many changes at the pre-college team level. The Washington Redskins have held out. The Florida State Seminoles have not only held out, but the Seminole Indian tribe has come strongly to their defense. The NCAA (National Collegiate Athletic Association), the organization that is the governing body for college athletics, has imposed a rule that disallows teams with NA mascots from participating in post-season tournaments. They've made exceptions on a case-by-case ruling. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL The Mike Lyle entity posted thusly: >> >>>I believe the record will show that the Arizona Cardinals were not >> >>>named after people, but after birds commonly found in St. Louis. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >about the commercialisation of BrAusEtc sport is the fake nickname -- or >the elevation of a genuine nickname into the team's official moniker. We went through this one several years ago, and at the risk of being yet again thrashed for my views, here they are. What you are calling a 'nickname' is not, in North American dialect, a nickname, but is a part of the team's name. The Vancouver Canucks, for example, is the entire, official name of the hockey team. In BrE, I gather that this would be "Vancouver" as the team name, and "Canucks" as the nickname. Analogous to names of people, The Vancouver Canucks is a given name, as would be, for example, "Bernard Geffrion", who had a 'civilian' nickname of "Bernie" (at least among English speakers), and a hockey nickname of "Boom Boom". The Canucks have nicknames among their fans (the 'Nucks), among fans of other teams (the Canuckleheads), and among sportscasters (either of these, depending on how they are doing). So the answer to your question would be "Nicknames are always spontaneously given to a team by the public. There names are given to them by their owners." > What you are calling a 'nickname' is not, in North American dialect, a > nickname, but is a part of the team's name. The Vancouver Canucks, for > example, is the entire, official name of the hockey team. In BrE, I > gather that this would be "Vancouver" as the team name, and "Canucks" > as the nickname. In local Australian football, we have seen a similar phenomenon, where what was indeed a nickname has been turned into a team name. Originally, most of our Perth teams had plain, geographical names, but their supporters and sometimes the opposition gave them other names, frequently based on popular Melbourne team names, but later some of these became their official name. For example, West Perth was known by their supporters as the Cardinals (I think because of the colour of their shirts) or by other clubs as the garlic-munchers. Then they moved out of Perth to a far-off suburb, and that was when they officially changed their name to the Cardinals. I do realise that this is not always the case. In particular, with newer teams, a non-geographical name was chosen at the outset. For some reason, animals and birds seem the most popular. SignatureRob Bannister [team names] > I'm not sure what to > make of the Buffalo Bills Ha. That was on _Jeopardy_ recently. They claimed it was going to be either The Bills or The Nickels. > or the New York Jets. When you're a Jet you're a Jet all the way? >> or the New York Jets. >When you're a Jet you're a Jet all the way? I could get into Canadian football teams, but I don't remember enough of them. (It's been twelve years now since I lived within range of Canadian TV.) I do have video of a Montreal sportscaster making the delightful little bilingual pun, "Well, the Argos certainly are happier than the Larks today." -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness The Garrett Wollman entity posted thusly: >>> or the New York Jets. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >delightful little bilingual pun, "Well, the Argos certainly are >happier than the Larks today." Montreal Alouettes (the Als, also The Double Blue) Ottawa Rough Riders (no longer exist) Toronto Argonauts (the Argos) Hamilton Tiger Cats (the Ticats) Winnipeg Blue Bombers (the Bombers) Saskatchewan Roughriders (the Riders) Calgary Stampeders (the Stamps) Edmonton Eskimos (the Eskies) BC Lions (the Lions) > The Garrett Wollman entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Montreal Alouettes (the Als, also The Double Blue) Après tout, un sport des anglais, whose knowledge of their French "roots"* at the time just about extended to "gentil plumerai". But I do remember hearing old sports commentators call them "the Larks". > Ottawa Rough Riders (no longer exist) Most recently incarnated as the (late) Renegades. Watch this space for their return as the Glebermen. The original name is said to have referred to the lumberjacks who rode log-booms down the Ottawa; at the last name-change, I talked up "The Ottawa Logdrivers", which would also have given them a ready-made team song (a waltz, almost), but I guess people wanted to keep the "R". > Toronto Argonauts (the Argos) An allusion to the way Bay Street gets its gold from the rest of us. > Hamilton Tiger Cats (the Ticats) By the Tigers out of the Bearcats. > Winnipeg Blue Bombers (the Bombers) The Winnipeg's were renamed after Joe Louis (sorta) by a sportscaster in 1936. This one I found on their official website, including the apostrophe. > Saskatchewan Roughriders (the Riders) Teddy? > Calgary Stampeders (the Stamps) The first local industry. > Edmonton Eskimos (the Eskies) Too cold for celebrating the local industry > BC Lions (the Lions) Maybe after the Lions' Gate entrance to Vancouver's Burrard Inlet, to the eponymous mountain peaks near it, or to a bridge that spans it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions'_Gate_Bridge *I might have to apologise to Eric Schwartz, a little tiny bit. The CDB entity posted thusly: >> The Garrett Wollman entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >also have given them a ready-made team song (a waltz, almost), but I >guess people wanted to keep the "R". Oh! Yes! That just happens to be my favourite waltz[1], or at least the version by the McGarrigal sisters. I'd vote for "The Ottawa Logdrivers" as their name in a heartbeat. What is your feel for the likelihood of an Ottawa team in the near (next few years) future. [1] I went to see a concert by The Arrogant Worms early last year, and they spoke of the word "waltz": "Here's a bit of a waltz, if you want to... waltz. Verb's the same as the noun." "It's also possessive, isn't it?" "If you're referring to something owned by Walt." "It's an educational album as well." >> Toronto Argonauts (the Argos) > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >Maybe after the Lions' Gate entrance to Vancouver's Burrard Inlet, to >the eponymous mountain peaks near it, or to a bridge that spans it. Probably. The Lions (mountain peaks) are a very strong Vancouver symbol. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions'_Gate_Bridge > >*I might have to apologise to Eric Schwartz, a little tiny bit. [CFL] > What is your feel for the likelihood of an Ottawa team in the near > (next few years) future. Some people haven't given up. I expect there will be another attempt, not next year, which will have a tiny chance of success if the investors are largely local. Or else they'll move the franchise to Halifax (NS).* *Besides making the only usage reference in the body of this post, those parentheses may be functioning as a frownie-smiley proto-emotical pair, indicating that, while the move would be a tragic loss for the National Capital Region, it would distribute the glory a little more evenly around the "nation". [...] >I'm not sure what to make of the > Buffalo Bills or the New York Jets. Trivia item: The original Buffalo professional football team, in the All-America Conference (whence (the conference) came the original Cleveland Browns (now the Baltimore Ravens) and the San Francisco 49ers) almost adopted the name Nickels.[1] It opted instead for Bisons and soon changed that to Bills. A Baltimore Colts team (which began life as the Miami Seahawks (not to be confused with today's Seattle Seahawks) also joined the NFL when the A-AC folded, but it quickly went out of business. The Colts team now in Indianapolis began life as an NFL expansion team, the Dallas Texans (not to be confused with the Dallas Texans of the AFL (now Kansas City Chiefs) or the Dallas Cowboys or the Houston Texans (recent expansion team). All of this except the business about the Nickels is available at <http://www.vaughantech.com/nfl.html> It's interesting to note that several of the early teams "disbanded," i.e., simply went out of business. I got the trivia item about the Nickels from a recent Final Jeopardy question but have been unable to pursue it further. (It's much easier to track down the Oakland Senors.) But I trust Jeopardy with this sort of thing. If you disagree, send your angry emails to them. And anyway, it's too good a story not to be true. [1] From 1913 to 1938, the Ameircan five-cent coin (nicknamed "nickel") had an image of a buffalo on one side. SignatureBob Lieblich Still rooting for the Boston Yanks >>I'm not sure what to make of the >> Buffalo Bills or the New York Jets. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Cleveland Browns (now the Baltimore Ravens) and the San Francisco > 49ers) Trivia item: The original Buffalo professional football team, a charter member of the National Football League, from 1920, was the All-Americans. It changed its name to the Bisons in 1924, to the Rangers in 1926, and back to the Bisons in 1927 before folding after the 1929 season (after sitting out the 1928 season). > almost adopted the name Nickels.[1] It opted instead for Bisons and > soon changed that to Bills. There were also Buffalo Bisons baseball teams in the National League from 1879 through 1884 and in the Players League in 1890 (the only year the league existed). SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There is something fascinating 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |about science. One gets such Palo Alto, CA 94304 |wholesale returns of conjecture out |of such a trifling investment of kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |fact. (650)857-7572 | Mark Twain http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > [1] From 1913 to 1938, the Ameircan five-cent coin (nicknamed > "nickel") had an image of a buffalo on one side. Central to the plot of Mamet's "American Buffalo" SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>You mean you lot don't name your teams for groups of people >>unrepresented on the teams themselves? (viz "Minnesota Vikings", [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I believe the record will show that the Arizona Cardinals were not > named after people, but after birds commonly found in St. Louis. Making it especially fortuitous that in 1960 they moved to St. Louis from Chicago, where they had played for the prior 62 years. The team was named for the color of uniforms they got in 1901, which were supposed to be maroon, but were not. The Washington Redskins started out as the Boston Braves (like the baseball team) and became the Boston Redskins before moveing to Washington. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If I may digress momentarily from 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |the mainstream of this evening's Palo Alto, CA 94304 |symposium, I'd like to sing a song |which is completely pointless. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Tom Lehrer (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ [ ... ] > Making it especially fortuitous that in 1960 they moved to St. Louis > from Chicago, where they had played for the prior 62 years. The team > was named for the color of uniforms they got in 1901, which were > supposed to be maroon, but were not. I think the University of Chicago football teams dated from the late 19th century, and they were known as the Maroons. I suspect that explains the pro teams intended choice of color. (The U of C dropped major college football a lifetime ago, but it still has some teams in other sports, and they're sill the Maroons.) > The Washington Redskins started out as the Boston Braves (like the > baseball team) and became the Boston Redskins before moveing to > Washington. Interstingly, the New York Yanks (sic; long defunct) also began life in Boston -- and as the Yanks. So just as the St. Louis Cardinals did not take their nickname from the local baseball team, neither did the New York Yanks (although one cannot completely rule out the possibility that the team's owner wanted the team in New York and used Boston as stepping stone). Note on this same theme the New York Giants, a football team named for a baseball team that subsequently left town; the Brooklyn Dodgers (defunct football team named for a baseball team that subsequently left town); the Detroit Tigers (baseball) and Lions (football); and the Chicago Cubs (baseball) and Bears (football). Lots of interbreeding there. SignatureBob Lieblich Recovering football fan [...] > I think the University of Chicago football teams dated from the late > 19th century, and they were known as the Maroons. I suspect that > explains the pro teams intended choice of color. (The U of C dropped > major college football a lifetime ago, but it still has some teams in > other sports, and they're sill the Maroons.) [...] "Maroon" is, of course, soon to be banned as racist. Meanwhile, back in Blighty these wonderfukl baroqueries can't be matched, but as a token there's the MK Dons. -- Mike (Siss, boom, ra ra ra for Accrington Stanley!) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > [...] >> I think the University of Chicago football teams dated from the late [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > "Maroon" is, of course, soon to be banned as racist. They can't do that! It would mean the loss of several Bugs Bunny classics. What a maroon. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. peter@ozebelgDieSpammers.org had it: > > [...] > >> I think the University of Chicago football teams dated from the late [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > What a maroon. Admitting that I have no idea why "maroon" might be racist, I will add information: obAUE: the exploding rockets which are launched to alert the Lifeboat Crew in towns around the British coast are called "maroons". 3 bangs means "run for the boat" (but they have electronic devices now). SignatureDavid ===== >peter@ozebelgDieSpammers.org had it: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Crew in towns around the British coast are called "maroons". 3 bangs >means "run for the boat" (but they have electronic devices now). Maroon has meanings that have no racist connotations whatsoever. Just one of the meanings can cause problems: http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861628497/maroon.html noun (plural ma·roons) Definition: 1. descendant of escaped slaves: a descendant of people escaped from slavery in Guyana and the remoter parts of the Caribbean [Mid-17th century < French marron "fugitive from slavery," shortening of American Spanish cimarrón "wild, untamed," probably < cima "peak"] SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>peter@ozebelgDieSpammers.org had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > shortening of American Spanish cimarrón "wild, untamed," > probably < cima "peak"] I am surprised that the definition seems to restrict the usage to Guyana on the American mainland. I heard the term used first about the River People of Suriname, who were known in the past as "Bush Negroes". I had to write a paper about them for an ethnography class, many years ago, using the papers of the Human Relations Area Files. As I recall, they did not refer to themselves as descendants of slaves, since many of their ancestors had escaped from the ships which brought them to America before they were sold. Fran >>> peter@ozebelgDieSpammers.org had it: [...] >>>>> "Maroon" is, of course, soon to be banned as racist. >>>> >>>> They can't do that! It would mean the loss of several Bugs Bunny >>>> classics. What a maroon. >>> >>> [...] >> Just one of the meanings can cause problems: >> http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861628497/maroon.html [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > since many of their ancestors had escaped from the ships which > brought them to America before they were sold. "Marrons" were spoken of in Haiti when I lived there as a child, and rather admired as an early resistance movement against the slavers. Of course, the Haitians can afford to be less sensitive about that aspect of their origins, since they threw the rascals out themselves. >> [...] >>> I think the University of Chicago football teams dated from the late [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >What a maroon. Might get rid of the State of Origin (rugby league), too. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > I think the University of Chicago football teams dated from the late > 19th century, and they were known as the Maroons. I suspect that > explains the pro teams intended choice of color. (The U of C dropped > major college football a lifetime ago, but it still has some teams in > other sports, and they're sill the Maroons.) Ah, that would explain _The Maroon Book_, Liebs, the alternative to _The Blue Book_ (A Uniform System of Citation)_, unknown outside of the University of Chicago Law School. SignatureSalvatore Volatile gguiri@yahoo.com had it: > >> I'm sure that American TV programs were aired in the UK in the 60s, > >> but I don't think it was quite as prevalent as it is now. Mostly [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Dragnet...and, for the kids, Casey Jones, Top Cat, The Flintstones, > Yogi Bear, The Jetsons, Huckleberry Hound.... That one with the house in the countryside. This Old House? Or was that just a song? I loved The Munsters and the Beverley Hillbillies, as well as the Hanna Barbara cartoons. SignatureDavid ===== laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk had it: > > I'm sure that American TV programs were aired in the UK in the 60s, > > but I don't think it was quite as prevalent as it is now. Mostly [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Hawaii 5-0, Perry Mason, Ironside - a bit of a contrast to Dixon of Dock > Green... McCloud, Kojak, Star Trek, I Dream of Jeanie. There were westerns, of course: The Lone Ranger, Rawhide etc. SignatureDavid ===== Tony Cooper filted: >I'm sure that American TV programs were aired in the UK in the 60s, >but I don't think it was quite as prevalent as it is now. Mostly >American Westerns in the 60s, wasn't it? Wasn't much television going the other way in those days either...the two Patricks (McGoohan and Macnee), and some Gerry Anderson puppetry, and that was about it until Python came along....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > I'm sure that American TV programs were aired in the UK in the 60s, > but I don't think it was quite as prevalent as it is now. Mostly > American Westerns in the 60s, wasn't it? And in those days, we probably misunderstood the cowboys' "pork and beans" for something that came out of a Heinz can. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>>Portions of thin cross-grain slices from a large steak-like hunk of >>>>>meat "grilled" underdone in your dialect, I expect. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > and said "I'll have one of those". Whatever the gentleman was > drinking suited me quite well. I never felt that I had much trouble communicating when I first visited the US for vacations. Some of the customs took some getting used to (eating salad before the main course was a puzzler), but we got by. It was rather different after we moved here, though. Conversations were quite difficult after we got past the "how old is your son?" and "what does your husband do?" kind of exchanges. I spent the first couple of years asking people to repeat what they said, and asking what terms meant. The relief of talking to someone from England was immense - they understood my accent, and they understood the cultural references. I realised how exhausting it was to try to communicate with people that you thought spoke the same language, but really didn't. It got better; now it takes me a few days to adjust when I go back to England, and everyone thinks I'm an American anyway. By the way, I will be in England at the end of February/beginning of March, so maybe we can organise something? I am particularly interested in the smoked salmon/ gravadlax tasting. Fran fkemmish@optonline.net had it: > By the way, I will be in England at the end of February/beginning of > March, so maybe we can organise something? I am particularly interested > in the smoked salmon/ gravadlax tasting. Big place, England. Any more detailed location info? SignatureDavid ===== > fkemmish@optonline.net had it: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Big place, England. Any more detailed location info? Some time in Nottingham; a few days in London; probably a trip to Cheltenham, and maybe a trip to Suffolk. Nothing is set in stone. Fran > Big place, England. Positively huge! Nearly the size of Alabama. What ever do you do with so much room? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. my.spamtrap@verizon.net had it: > > Big place, England. > > Positively huge! Nearly the size of Alabama. > > What ever do you do with so much room? It's not so much the physical size as the amount of travelling time involved. SignatureDavid ===== > my.spamtrap@verizon.net had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It's not so much the physical size as the amount of travelling time > involved. Yes, it must slow you down considerably having to drive on the wrong side of the road all the time, even on the Interstate. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. my.spamtrap@verizon.net had it: > > my.spamtrap@verizon.net had it: > >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Yes, it must slow you down considerably having to drive on the wrong side of > the road all the time, even on the Interstate. No, that's less of a problem; we don't have any Interstates. SignatureDavid ===== > my.spamtrap@verizon.net had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > No, that's less of a problem; we don't have any Interstates. But we do drive on the Interstices SignatureJohn Dean Oxford john-dean@fraglineone.net had it: > > my.spamtrap@verizon.net had it: > >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > But we do drive on the Interstices I don't - the bears will get me. SignatureDavid ===== > my.spamtrap@verizon.net had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > No, that's less of a problem; we don't have any Interstates. Well, no wonder it takes all day to get anywhere, then. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >By the way, I will be in England at the end of February/beginning of >March, so maybe we can organise something? I am particularly interested >in the smoked salmon/ gravadlax tasting. Keep me posted - I don't always keep up with the newsgroup. Not a very good time for me, though.... unless we meet up in Cambridge? Katy >>>>> Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>>> London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > According to COD, broiling can be either of the above - 'cooking meat > or fish by exposure to direct heat'. This is what food lovers in AmE say: ======== grill v. To prepare food on a grill over hot coals or other heat source. The term barbecue is often used synonymously with grill. broil v. To cook food directly under or above the heat source. Food can be broiled in an oven, directly under the gas or electric heat source, or on a barbecue grill, directly over charcoal or other heat source. Ref.: http://www.epicurious.com/ ======== To my mind, broiling definitely involves a heat source above the food being cooked. There may or may not be a heat source below. SignatureSkitt I may not understand what you say, but I'll defend to your death my right to deny it. --Albert Alligator >> Grilling is not the same as barbecuing. Grilling has the flames, or >> red-hot element, above the food; barbecuing has the flames beneath. >> According to COD, broiling can be either of the above - 'cooking meat >> or fish by exposure to direct heat'. > grill v. > To prepare food on a grill over hot coals or other heat source. The term > barbecue is often used synonymously with grill. > broil v. > To cook food directly under or above the heat source. Food can be > broiled in an oven, directly under the gas or electric heat source, or > on a barbecue grill, directly over charcoal or other heat source. > To my mind, broiling definitely involves a heat source above the food > being cooked. There may or may not be a heat source below. Precisely! Broil is a heat source above, only. A heat source both above and below is to bake. My first lesson in cooking, once off the farm, is always open a can of soup before placing over a cooking burner. My second lesson in cooking, again once off the farm, is to remove the paper wrapping from around a can before placing over a cooking burner. Those are two very important basic cooking lessons. After cooking, I learned a lesson to never use ordinary liquid dish soap in a dish washing machine, but this is many years later when we could afford a dish washer, which sits unused; I do not trust those contraptions; plastic stuff comes out all deformed and unusable. I did learn another valuable lesson, sincerely valuable. When you are young, poor, working the oil fields of west Texas simply to survive, place a couple of cans of soup under the hot Texas sun before work. By lunch, you have nice hot soup to eat, for you and your hard working husband. Same principle of science works well for those times you are picking cotton in Arizona, to earn gas money to make it to California, land of milk and honey, which is not true at all. Taha > broil v. > To cook food directly under or above the heat source. Food can be > broiled in an oven, directly under the gas or electric heat source, or > on a barbecue grill, directly over charcoal or other heat source. It's the oven bit that gets me. That would have to be "roast" or "bake" in BrE. We think the other kind of cooking is completely different even though, in essence, it isn't. SignatureRob Bannister >> broil v. >> To cook food directly under or above the heat source. Food can be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in BrE. We think the other kind of cooking is completely different even > though, in essence, it isn't. We bought a new oven last year, and it turned out to have the griller inside the oven. More precisely, it has separately controlled top and bottom heating elements, as well as a fan-forced heater at the back. The top element is used for grilling, and the grilling is done with the oven door closed! It took a while to get used to, but the results are remarkably similar to what you get with a conventional Australian griller. I think what makes it work properly is the fan that blows cold air past the meat, so that it doesn't get roasted while it's being grilled. All in all, it's a pretty good oven. The main downside is that the stupid menu-driven control on the front panel uses icons instead of plain text, so you have to re-read the programming manual before each meal. If I ever find the person who invented icons, I'll take great pleasure in stringing him up by the balls. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >If I ever find the person who invented icons, I'll take great >pleasure in stringing him up by the balls. You'll recognise him by his "no stringing up" lapel badge. Seriously, though, ISTM that the few people who really don't get on with icons (I mean *really* don't get on with icons) suffer from some sort of disability. Does it have a name, I wonder? SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >> If I ever find the person who invented icons, I'll take great [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > icons (I mean *really* don't get on with icons) suffer from some sort of > disability. Does it have a name, I wonder? Misoguinist? SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. Peter Moylan wrote: If I ever find the person who invented icons, I'll take great pleasure in stringing him up by the balls. You'll recognise him by his "no stringing up" lapel badge. Seriously, though, ISTM that the few people who really don't get on with icons (I mean *really* don't get on with icons) suffer from some sort of disability. Does it have a name, I wonder? They are a fringe group of Disiconoestablishmentarianism. -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >>If I ever find the person who invented icons, I'll take great [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >icons (I mean *really* don't get on with icons) suffer from some sort of >disability. Does it have a name, I wonder? I don't know, but my wife has it. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>Seriously, though, ISTM that the few people who really don't get on with >>icons (I mean *really* don't get on with icons) suffer from some sort of >>disability. Does it have a name, I wonder? Intelligence? Dignity? SignatureSalvatore Volatile > >>Seriously, though, ISTM that the few people who really don't get on with > >>icons (I mean *really* don't get on with icons) suffer from some sort of > >>disability. Does it have a name, I wonder? > > Intelligence? > Dignity? Truly. And "culture": I wonder if it's possible to be too literate. My brother and I are both differently-abled in this same way. If some fool cooker wants to point me toward the back left, why doesn't it just say so in any one of the numerous written languages the human race has painstakingly evolved for the purpose? The idiotic diagram's "blob on the left" would, I agree, most often mean "left ring"; but "top-of-diagram blob" can quite as well be interpreted as "ring nearer to the reader" as "ring more distant from the reader", especially when mounted on a vertical surface. Oddly, however, when it comes to real maps, charts, and photos my bro and I are both good navigators -- I can get you to an objective across rough country in all conditions. I think it's a kind of code-switching, and I don't understand why I can't switch it in for things like cookers. Our mother, a painter, can't understand our problem at all: similarly, she instantly knew how to use a computer mouse the first time she touched one, aged about 74. It took the might of AUE (in the person of Harvey?) to explain to me that the strange "wing" thing on my pocket telephone was a pencil with zoom stripes. SignatureMike. In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote: >If some fool cooker >wants to point me toward the back left, why doesn't it just say so in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >and I are both good navigators -- I can get you to an objective across >rough country in all conditions. Are you still a good navigator if you hold your map vertically? If so, I don't understand what the problem is with that little diagram on the cooker. It's just a map. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote: > >If some fool cooker [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > don't understand what the problem is with that little diagram on the > cooker. It's just a map. Yes, I know: I'm as puzzled as you are by my tragic disability (for which I hope soon to claim a hefty diversity-mainstreaming grant from EC funds). The nearest I can get to an explanation is that when I'm reading a map, I'm firmly in a map-reading situation, while when I'm glancing at the switch on a cooker I'm usually in the middle of a word-reading mindset and am slow to make the change. There's probably an element of conditioned response, too: no doubt I could quickly train myself out of the hesitation if it mattered much. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote: >> In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote: >> >If some fool cooker [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >conditioned response, too: no doubt I could quickly train myself out of >the hesitation if it mattered much. The other thing that might be useful to realise is that the order of the knobs is traditionally back-left front-left front-right back-right (this for four rings with controls at the front). Imagine stretching the line of controls and wrapping it round the hob. Of course there are always the mavericks, like pairs of taps with the cold on the left. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >>>> If some fool cooker >>>> wants to point me toward the back left, why doesn't it just say so [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Of course there are always the mavericks, like pairs of taps with the > cold on the left. Our range (GE) has them as front-left, back-left, back-right, front-right. Is that unusual? The controls are on the almost vertical back panel, and there are the oven controls and a clock between the left and right pairs of knobs. SignatureSkitt Living in The Heart of the Bay http://www.ci.hayward.ca.us/ In alt.usage.english, Skitt wrote: >> The other thing that might be useful to realise is that the order of >> the knobs is traditionally back-left front-left front-right [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >panel, and there are the oven controls and a clock between the left and >right pairs of knobs. I'd say that your range fits the pattern ("Imagine...", the different order of the main four knobs being because they're at the back rather than the front. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >>> The other thing that might be useful to realise is that the order of >>> the knobs is traditionally back-left front-left front-right [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > order of the main four knobs being because they're at the back rather > than the front. Well, I think that the pattern I described applies also when the controls are in front, at least for some manufacturers. See: http://www.ajmadison.com/phpdocs/ajtest/item_image_browser.php?sku=DEGLSC24X I know that it is hard to see, but I enlarged the picture, and the diagrams indicating which burner is controlled by which knob are then quite clear. It's hard to find good pictures of the control panel layouts. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ In alt.usage.english, Skitt wrote: >>>> The other thing that might be useful to realise is that the order of >>>> the knobs is traditionally back-left front-left front-right [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >quite clear. It's hard to find good pictures of the control panel >layouts. It's quite clear to me, even without enlargement[1], that that range has controls in the same *order* as your range, so because they're at the front, they don't fit the *pattern* I described. The pattern being that the inner two knobs are for the nearest two burners. The first one I found on a UK site is (as I expected) in the opposite *order* to that range and fits the *pattern* I described. http://www.johnlewis.com/Shopping/PhotoGallery.aspx?Type=SKU&ID=230395951&ThumbID=1 [1] Of course it wouldn't be at all clear if there were words instead of symbols. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England The Mike Barnes entity posted thusly: >In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >Of course there are always the mavericks, like pairs of taps with the >cold on the left. I once used a washroom at an industrial manufacturing place, and noticed the taps were both marked "C". I mentioned it to the fellow, and he said they had broken one, and replaced it with the only tap handle they could find. I told him not to worry, as I could just think of them as (C)old and (C)haud. In alt.usage.english, Oleg Lego wrote: >I once used a washroom at an industrial manufacturing place, and >noticed the taps were both marked "C". I mentioned it to the fellow, >and he said they had broken one, and replaced it with the only tap >handle they could find. I told him not to worry, as I could just think >of them as (C)old and (C)haud. If the UK that would be (C)haud and (C)old. Probably not worth swapping the tops over, though. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >In alt.usage.english, Oleg Lego wrote: >>I once used a washroom at an industrial manufacturing place, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >If the UK that would be (C)haud and (C)old. Probably not worth swapping >the tops over, though. In the houses and flats I've lived in the conventional arrangement of bath(tub) taps has been Cold on the left and Hot on the right, all other taps (bathroom basin/sink, kitchen sink, etc.) have been Hot on the left. This seems to have changed to hot on the left always. On the other hand, have I misunderstood the earlier convention? Was the rule that the bath(tub) hot tap should in a position that was least accessible to small children? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) In alt.usage.english, Peter Duncanson wrote: >>In alt.usage.english, Oleg Lego wrote: >>>I once used a washroom at an industrial manufacturing place, and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >all other taps (bathroom basin/sink, kitchen sink, etc.) have been >Hot on the left. Weird. >This seems to have changed to hot on the left always. Agreed - and that seems more sensible. >On the other hand, have I misunderstood the earlier convention? Was >the rule that the bath(tub) hot tap should in a position that was >least accessible to small children? Possibly, I guess. Nowadays hot water isn't dangerously hot. It's often painfully hot (60 degrees is normal IIRC) - and maybe that's a *good* thing for dissuading youngsters - but not dangerously hot. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > Possibly, I guess. Nowadays hot water isn't dangerously hot. It's often > painfully hot (60 degrees is normal IIRC) - and maybe that's a *good* > thing for dissuading youngsters - but not dangerously hot. Hmm. Mine is set at 65°, which may or may not be dangerous to tender hands, but it does vary a lot between winter and summer. I certainly can't put my hands under it in summer. I don't know why it should vary so much. It is a fair distance from the electric immersion heater in the laundry to the kitchen, but I wouldn't have thought it made that much difference. SignatureRob Bannister >> Possibly, I guess. Nowadays hot water isn't dangerously hot. It's often >> painfully hot (60 degrees is normal IIRC) - and maybe that's a *good* [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >hands, but it does vary a lot between winter and summer. I certainly >can't put my hands under it in summer. Recommended maxima for UK domestic hot water supply to washing facilities, to prevent scalding, are 46 deg. for baths, 41 for showers and washbasins, and 38 for bidets. I suppose it doesn't take much imagination to understand the last. But 60 is needed in storage tanks to prevent legionella and other unpleasant micro-organisms from nesting. Thermostatic mixing valves are available to ensure the appropriate temperature drop. >I don't know why it should vary so much. It is a fair distance from the >electric immersion heater in the laundry to the kitchen, but I wouldn't >have thought it made that much difference. It probably doesn't take many degrees to make a very perceptible difference once body temperature is exceeded. Consider how hot showers seem to need very precise adjustment to put them into the comfy zone. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! In alt.usage.english, Paul Wolff wrote: >>> Possibly, I guess. Nowadays hot water isn't dangerously hot. It's often >>> painfully hot (60 degrees is normal IIRC) - and maybe that's a *good* [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Thermostatic mixing valves are available to ensure the appropriate >temperature drop. Yes, but I've only come across those in public facilities, never in a private home, or even a hotel bathroom AFAIK. You did say "domestic" so I wonder at the disparity between those recommendations and real life, and I wonder who it is that's doing the recommending. And what do "they" recommend for kitchens? ISTM that ideally for washing up and cleaning generally you'd want the water much hotter than that, and your hands would be protected by your Marigolds. >>I don't know why it should vary so much. It is a fair distance from >>the electric immersion heater in the laundry to the kitchen, but I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >difference once body temperature is exceeded. Consider how hot showers >seem to need very precise adjustment to put them into the comfy zone. Agreed. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >In alt.usage.english, Paul Wolff wrote: >>Recommended maxima for UK domestic hot water supply to washing [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I wonder at the disparity between those recommendations and real life, >and I wonder who it is that's doing the recommending. I don't know, or do know but don't remember; I have a client in the TMV business (See? I'm getting the speak already) who sees a big market opening up. I wouldn't be surprised to find a conclave of trade associations, plumbing regulators, institutional inspectors, safety supremos, barking watchdogs and zealous czars in what couldn't possibly be smoke-filled rooms at the root of it. I think there are rules for institutions which have drifted towards the private home sector to the extent of having become recommendations there. Now I've re-checked my sources: the recommendations are from information paper IP14/03 of the Building Research Establishment, written by the BRE jointly with the Thermostatic Mixer Valve Manufacturers Association and the Child Accident Prevention Trust (so I wasn't far wrong); and I found the summary on the web site of The Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering [food for gerund junkies there]: www.iphe.org.uk. >And what do "they" recommend for kitchens? ISTM that ideally for washing >up and cleaning generally you'd want the water much hotter than that, >and your hands would be protected by your Marigolds. "Temperatures should never exceed 46 deg. C", all in red. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! In alt.usage.english, Paul Wolff wrote: >>In alt.usage.english, Paul Wolff wrote: >>>Recommended maxima for UK domestic hot water supply to washing [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >of The Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering [food for gerund >junkies there]: www.iphe.org.uk. Thanks. >>And what do "they" recommend for kitchens? ISTM that ideally for washing >>up and cleaning generally you'd want the water much hotter than that, >>and your hands would be protected by your Marigolds. > >"Temperatures should never exceed 46 deg. C", all in red. Well, I remain unconvinced that that applies to ordinary domestic kitchens, though I can see why plumbers would like it to, especially when they start talking about "frequent inspection and servicing". For instance: "Although there is no legal requirement* to limit water delivery temperatures, DEFRA recommend the use of thermostatic mixing valves (TMVs) for terminal fittings in schools, public buildings and other facilities used by the public. In addition, the Housing Corporation recommends thermostatically controlled supplies to bath taps in all housing. Thermostatic control of showers and all hot water taps is considered essential in housing for the elderly." That all appears to me to refer to vulnerable users. And no mention of kitchens. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >In alt.usage.english, Paul Wolff wrote: >>>In alt.usage.english, Paul Wolff wrote: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >That all appears to me to refer to vulnerable users. And no mention of >kitchens. Yes, indeed. I would only add that where these organisations lead, regulation is likely to follow. I'm sure I've broken at least one regulation with the force of law these past few weeks, rearranging the power and lighting in my garage as I convert it to an in-house workshop. Shocked, I was, and serve me right -- and so soon after being brought to earth by the disadvantages of standing on the top rung of a ladder; but I believe that a propensity for risk-taking is built into the human mind (especially the male one). SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! Paul Wolff filted: >I'm sure I've broken at least one regulation with the force of law these >past few weeks, rearranging the power and lighting in my garage as I >convert it to an in-house workshop. Shocked, I was, and serve me right >-- and so soon after being brought to earth by the disadvantages of >standing on the top rung of a ladder; but I believe that a propensity >for risk-taking is built into the human mind (especially the male one). I don't think anybody's actually compiled statistics, but the most frequently uttered "final words" are very probably "hey, watch this!"...R Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Paul Wolff filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I don't think anybody's actually compiled statistics, but the most frequently >uttered "final words" are very probably "hey, watch this!"...R A Horizon programme on aircraft accidents suggested the most frequently heard words at the end of voice recorder tapes are 'Oh sh.t'. Mike Page > Paul Wolff filted: >>[...] I believe that a propensity for risk-taking is built into the >>human [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > frequently uttered "final words" are very probably "hey, watch > this!"...R They do say that most men drowned while canoeing are found with their flies open. In message <eog8l6$me4$1@aioe.org>, CDB <bellemarec@sympatico.ca> writes >> Paul Wolff filted: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >They do say that most men drowned while canoeing are found with their >flies open. Snorkels 'R' Us. But it doesn't always work. SignaturePaul >>> Paul Wolff filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> > Snorkels 'R' Us. But it doesn't always work. Somewhere I have paddled up the wrong creek; because I don't see how a snorkel would help, even if these were a common feature of the canoeing life. The factoid above, which I have heard presented semi-seriously, implies that the risk-taking, exhibitionist half of the species is given to trying to pee standing up in the canoe. If you don't want to kneel in it afterwards, this requires you to turn and aim port or starboard, destabilizing the canoe and greatly increasing the chance of an impromptu dive into the gunwales. Me, I always just did it into the bailer. >>>> Paul Wolff filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Me, I always just did it into the bailer. Was he resigned to this behaviour? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>>> Paul Wolff filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Was he resigned to this behaviour? He was a cut-down Javex bottle eking out his pension, and had seen worse. The CDB entity posted thusly: >>>> Paul Wolff filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >snorkel would help, even if these were a common feature of the >canoeing life. I think the "snorkel" he was referring to was either meant as a handy tube to direct the stream, or (as I took it) a humourous reference to the attempted use of a bio-snorkel to prevent drowning. >The CDB entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >tube to direct the stream, or (as I took it) a humourous reference to >the attempted use of a bio-snorkel to prevent drowning. Truly. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! > The CDB entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > handy tube to direct the stream, or (as I took it) a humourous > reference to the attempted use of a bio-snorkel to prevent drowning. Hollow reeds are to be found at hand, in some cases. Those? It's hard to think quickly with a gunwale-shaped dent in your forehead, though. > Paul Wolff filted: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I don't think anybody's actually compiled statistics, but the most frequently > uttered "final words" are very probably "hey, watch this!"...R Then there is "this is perfectly safe" and "anyone can do that". SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >> I don't think anybody's actually compiled statistics, but the most frequently >> uttered "final words" are very probably "hey, watch this!"...R >> >Then there is "this is perfectly safe" and "anyone can do that". Somewhere near the top is "what does *this* button do?"...r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Possibly, I guess. Nowadays hot water isn't dangerously hot. It's often >painfully hot (60 degrees is normal IIRC) - and maybe that's a *good* >thing for dissuading youngsters - but not dangerously hot. Code here specifies 120 degF max in residential buildings and 140 in commercial buildings. That's 49 and 60 degC, respectively. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > In the houses and flats I've lived in the conventional arrangement > of bath(tub) taps has been Cold on the left and Hot on the right, > all other taps (bathroom basin/sink, kitchen sink, etc.) have been > Hot on the left. In my student days the convention was cold on the left and cold on the right. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > Peter Duncanson wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > In my student days the convention was cold on the left and cold on > the right. That's still the convention here in Taiwan, unless you buy a water heater and bottled gas. Even if the water heater is already on the wall, you still have to buy the gas. The same is true in most restaurants, gas stations, and public buildings. Nor do they usually provide toilet paper (sometimes they have a vending machine that dispenses two small packages of ten tissues each for about US$0.33) or paper towels in restrooms. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "If you are still not convinced of the a.s-brain connection, finish this sentence: 'It is easier to think after I … (a) get a haircut (b) take a dump'." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 12 Jan 2007; http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/ teranews now charges a one-time US$3.95 setup fee -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com The Mike Barnes entity posted thusly: >In alt.usage.english, Oleg Lego wrote: >>I once used a washroom at an industrial manufacturing place, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >If the UK that would be (C)haud and (C)old. Probably not worth swapping >the tops over, though. Are you assuming I was reading them left-to-right? In alt.usage.english, Oleg Lego wrote: >The Mike Barnes entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Are you assuming I was reading them left-to-right? For a single letters it's hard to tell what the difference would be reading them in the other direction. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England The Mike Barnes entity posted thusly: >In alt.usage.english, Oleg Lego wrote: >>The Mike Barnes entity posted thusly: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >For a single letters it's hard to tell what the difference would be >reading them in the other direction. Why, (C)old and (C)haud vs. (C)haud and (C)old, of course! But it was as I stated, (C)old and (C)haud, with (C)old on the right. > The Mike Barnes entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > But it was as I stated, (C)old and (C)haud, with (C)old on the right. After you (C)old No, after *you* (C)ecil SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>Oddly, however, when it comes to real maps, charts, and photos my bro >>and I are both good navigators -- I can get you to an objective across [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >don't understand what the problem is with that little diagram on the >cooker. It's just a map. But it's inherently ambiguous; they don't say whether it's first-angle or third-angle projection, if I remember the technical term correctly. And I am fairly sure that cookers are not consistent in this respect. Katy In alt.usage.english, K. Edgcombe wrote: >>>Oddly, however, when it comes to real maps, charts, and photos my bro >>>and I are both good navigators -- I can get you to an objective across [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >But it's inherently ambiguous; they don't say whether it's first-angle or >third-angle projection, if I remember the technical term correctly. Either you or someone else is going have to explain that to me. No projections are required to map one flat surface onto another flat surface. >And I am >fairly sure that cookers are not consistent in this respect. I'd be amazed if they weren't. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote: >If some fool cooker wants to point me toward the back left, why doesn't >it just say so in any one of the numerous written languages the human >race has painstakingly evolved for the purpose? That doesn't always help. Most of the garages around here sell two types of unleaded petrol, Premium and High Octane, and I can never remember which one my car should have. It needs the cheap, ordinary type, therefore not Premium, surely? Then again, I don't think it needs High Octane. Now that I'm getting on a bit, I have to ask at the till about once a month. This was last night's exchange: "Which one of your unleaded petrols is the cheapest?" "The ordinary one." "Which one is that?" "Er ... It says on the pumps." "No, the pumps say Premium and High Octane. No prices given." "Er ... [very long pause while he consults the computer] ... Premium is the cheapest." "Then why is it called 'Premium'?" "Er ... Premium is the cheapest." Icons would be a lot more useful - little boxes with, say, either two or four stars in them. SignatureV > In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > "No, the pumps say Premium and High Octane. No prices given." I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be legal here in California; and probably anywhere in the US. > Icons would be a lot more useful - little boxes with, say, either > two or four stars in them. Four stars for "cheapest", two for "somewhat less cheap"? The thing that's struck me about pumps around here is that the ones I go to, in which the different grades share a hose and you have to push a button to select, all have the buttons in *descending* price order, from most expensive to least expensive, presumably counting on (some) people to not pay attention and assume it would be done the other way, thereby getting a higher grade of gas than the "regular" they want. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Code should be designed to make it 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |easy to get it right, not to work Palo Alto, CA 94304 |if you get it right. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> If some fool cooker wants to point me toward the back left, why >>> doesn't it just say so in any one of the numerous written languages [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > people to not pay attention and assume it would be done the other way, > thereby getting a higher grade of gas than the "regular" they want. The stations I go to near our house (ARCO and Valero) have them arranged with Regular on the left, Plus in the middle and Premium on the right. You push big buttons that have the octane ratings in very large numbers on them. It's hard to go wrong. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ [...] >> The thing that's struck me about pumps around here is that the ones I >> go to, in which the different grades share a hose and you have to push [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >push big buttons that have the octane ratings in very large numbers on them. >It's hard to go wrong. We have a shared meter but separate hoses, colour coded. The price changes accoring to which hose you disengage from its holster. Sorta like this picture here (the best I could find quickly). http://www.abc.net.au/canberra/stories/s1450372.htm SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>> The thing that's struck me about pumps around here is that the ones >>> I go to, in which the different grades share a hose and you have to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > http://www.abc.net.au/canberra/stories/s1450372.htm Our nearest ARCO has at least one pump that looks something like this: http://travis.kroh.net/archives/003205.jpg The A hose is for diesel, though, and it is green. Most of the pumps have only the right section. The price is displayed in the little gray rectangle once the button near it is selected. Other than that, all prices are displayed on large boards in several places at the expansive but not expensive station. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > >>> The thing that's struck me about pumps around here is that the ones > >>> I go to, in which the different grades share a hose and you have to [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > displayed on large boards in several places at the expansive but not > expensive station. Offhand, I can't remember a UK filling station where the grades shared a hose. And diesel comes through a black hose, petrol through green (both grades? Can't remember: leaded used to come through a red one, though). I think the diesel ones even have nozzles of different diameter from the petrol ones. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> >>> The thing that's struck me about pumps around here is that the >ones [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >I think the diesel ones even have nozzles of different diameter from the >petrol ones. In my local garage hoses are: premium unleaded is bright green, super is light blue, lead replacement (I don't know whether they still have it) is/was red and diesel black. There's a special pump for truck diesel (I don't know whether it's different from that for cars). SignatureRobin Herts, England docrobin@ntlworld.com had it: > In my local garage hoses are: premium unleaded is bright green, super > is light blue, lead replacement (I don't know whether they still have > it) is/was red and diesel black. There's a special pump for truck > diesel (I don't know whether it's different from that for cars). It has a higher canopy to accommodate the lorries. SignatureDavid ===== >docrobin@ntlworld.com had it: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >It has a higher canopy to accommodate the lorries. And sometimes the pumps deliver the diesel much faster. Mike Page <snip> >> We have a shared meter but separate hoses, colour coded. The price >> changes accoring to which hose you disengage from its holster. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >displayed on large boards in several places at the expansive but not >expensive station. In addition there is a standard for the diameter of the bit of pipe on the hose nozzle that you actualy insert into the filler hole. The need for this standard is now defunct, but many moons ago when we still had leaded gas (petrol) the nozzle was a larger diameter than today's. Then during the transition period when new cars needed unleaded (lest they poison the catalytic converter) they made the inlet on the car a smaller diameter so that the old nozzles could no longer be inserted, while the "safe" nozzles had a smaller bore. Nowadays you can't get leaded anymore, so the smaller diameter nozzle no longer has much point, but we continue to use them anyway. And yes - diesel is a separate physical hose and clearly marked. Despite this, the Memsahib managed to top up the venerable (diesel) Stunkenfahrer with the wrong hose one day. It ran fine for a few miles then started to cough and splutter most grievously. Luckily we didn't turn the engine off (I nearly said switch off the ignition, but there is no such thing on that vehicle) and managed to stagger to the Mercedes dealer who successfully diagnosed the problem and performed a transfusion. In was only after he had dignosed it that we realised what had happened. Jitze >Nowadays you can't get leaded anymore, so the smaller diameter >nozzle no longer has much point, but we continue to use them >anyway. Certainly it still has a point -- it has to mate properly with the installed base of fuel tanks, which all have the smaller aperture on the fill pipe. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >> Nowadays you can't get leaded anymore, so the smaller diameter >> nozzle no longer has much point, but we continue to use them [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > installed base of fuel tanks, which all have the smaller aperture on > the fill pipe. Yup, and the presence of that smaller aperture gets verified every time the mandatory smog tests are performed. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > > Nowadays you can't get leaded anymore, so the smaller diameter > > nozzle no longer has much point, but we continue to use them [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > installed base of fuel tanks, which all have the smaller aperture on > the fill pipe. There's also the concern with stations that dispense diesel fuel as well. The diesel pumps also have a larger nozzle to help prevent inadvertent filling at self-serve pumps. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) > In addition there is a standard for the diameter of the bit of pipe > on the hose nozzle that you actualy insert into the filler hole. > > The need for this standard is now defunct, Is the need really defunct? I admit that my local service station does my filling for me, so it's been a long time since I tried myself, but I remember that the intake pipe of my car is rather narrow, and that many petrol pump nozzles block the air so that petrol won't go in easily. If there isn't a standard, there should be. SignatureRob Bannister >> In addition there is a standard for the diameter of the bit of pipe >> on the hose nozzle that you actualy insert into the filler hole. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >petrol pump nozzles block the air so that petrol won't go in easily. If >there isn't a standard, there should be. What I meant by that is that you can't buy leaded gas here anymore, Thus the issue of preventing a dispenser of leaded gas from being able to work with a narrower inlet pipe is now moot. Jitze In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >> "No, the pumps say Premium and High Octane. No prices given." > >I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be legal here in California; and >probably anywhere in the US. If you mean "no prices given", I'd be surprised if that was legal anywhere in the UK. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England In alt.usage.english, Mike Barnes wrote: >In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >>> "No, the pumps say Premium and High Octane. No prices given." >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >If you mean "no prices given", I'd be surprised if that was legal >anywhere in the UK. They are given on a big sign facing the road but you don't see the prices on the pump until you have picked up a nozzle, and I don't want to do that because I don't want to start bogus transactions. (Come to think of it, I have no idea whether I would start bogus transactions. Perhaps I'll give it a go next time I forget which is the cheapest. If I remember.) SignatureV >In alt.usage.english, Mike Barnes wrote: >>In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Perhaps I'll give it a go next time I forget which is the cheapest. If I >remember.) I'd imagine that a transaction wouldn't start until the fuel starts to flow. This would allow for nozzles being accidentally dislodged, and for someone lifting the wrong nozzle, putting it back, and then picking up the right one. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) In alt.usage.english, Peter Duncanson wrote: >On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 13:46:15 +0000, Vinny Burgoo >>They are given on a big sign facing the road but you don't see the >>prices on the pump until you have picked up a nozzle, and I don't want [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >and for someone lifting the wrong nozzle, putting it back, and then >picking up the right one. Let's hope so. I've had enough of being a good citizen. Next time, I ain't gonna ask, I'm just gonna give it a go. SignatureV I'm crazy, me >> They are given on a big sign facing the road but you don't see the >> prices on the pump until you have picked up a nozzle, and I don't [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and for someone lifting the wrong nozzle, putting it back, and then > picking up the right one. If you start filling with one nozzle, and then switch to another, the price just increments from where it was. I found this out by accidentally starting with the wrong one. Now I use it to fill up my car and my mower fuel tank in a single transaction. A new transaction can't start until the central operator has pushed some sort of "next" button. That's why you sometimes start trying to use the pump and nothing happens until after a time delay. The reason for this, I presume, is so that the operator won't lose track of who has paid and who hasn't. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >If you start filling with one nozzle, and then switch to another, the >price just increments from where it was. I found this out by [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I presume, is so that the operator won't lose track of who has paid and >who hasn't. AIUI in most of the UK things are somewhat more automated than that. The operator has to confirm that the vehicle's registration number has been logged correctly by the cameras, before the customer is allowed to take fuel. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England "Peter Moylan" <peter@ozebelgDieSpammers.org> [...]> If you start filling with one nozzle, and then switch to another, the > price just increments from where it was. I found this out by > accidentally starting with the wrong one. Now I use it to fill up my car [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I presume, is so that the operator won't lose track of who has paid and > who hasn't. To do your trick, do you have to take the second nozzle off the hook before replacing the first? I'm hazy about it, but I think I once started with the wrong one, hung up, and found the second wouldn't work till I'd explained my behaviour by semaphore. Perhaps that was a different system, of course. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote: >To do your trick, do you have to take the second nozzle off the hook >before replacing the first? I'm hazy about it, but I think I once >started with the wrong one, hung up, and found the second wouldn't work >till I'd explained my behaviour by semaphore. Perhaps that was a >different system, of course. Ah ha! Perhaps I won't give it a go, after all. SignatureV > They are given on a big sign facing the road but you don't see the > prices on the pump until you have picked up a nozzle, and I don't want > to do that because I don't want to start bogus transactions. (Come to > think of it, I have no idea whether I would start bogus transactions. > Perhaps I'll give it a go next time I forget which is the cheapest. If I > remember.) What I want to know is what they have done to plain unleaded petrol. I never bought premium until a few months ago, and it seems to me that the more expensive kind now lasts as long as the plain type used to. I suspect they've watered the plain unleaded down to force me to spend more. The other thing is the way the price of crude oil keeps on dropping, but the price at the bowser (BrE: petrol pump) remains about the same. SignatureRob Bannister In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >> Icons would be a lot more useful - little boxes with, say, either >> two or four stars in them. > >Four stars for "cheapest", two for "somewhat less cheap"? Don't be difficult. SignatureV On 11 Jan 2007, Mike Lyle wrote > It took the might of AUE (in the person of Harvey?) to explain > to me that the strange "wing" thing on my pocket telephone was a > pencil with zoom stripes. I think it was, probably, me. And it's nice to know that one's life work has not been entirely in vain. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van Mike Barnes filted: >Seriously, though, ISTM that the few people who really don't get on with >icons (I mean *really* don't get on with icons) suffer from some sort of >disability. Does it have a name, I wonder? *They* have...they're called "clasts"....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >> If I ever find the person who invented icons, I'll take great [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > with icons (I mean *really* don't get on with icons) suffer from some > sort of disability. Does it have a name, I wonder? iconoclasm SignatureJohn Dean Oxford The Mike Barnes entity posted thusly: >In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >>If I ever find the person who invented icons, I'll take great [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >icons (I mean *really* don't get on with icons) suffer from some sort of >disability. Does it have a name, I wonder? Yes, it's called "I speak English, dammit! Get those icons outta my face!" >>> broil v. >>> To cook food directly under or above the heat source. Food can be [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > meal. If I ever find the person who invented icons, I'll take great > pleasure in stringing him up by the balls. Glad to see you're back with us, Peter. One day, I will buy a new stove too. I was really annoyed the last time I had an expert round to mend one of the hotplates (it's electric) and he checked my oven and informed me that it was keeping perfect temperature. I mean, I "know" that it doesn't get hot enough, but now, I don't really have an excuse for lashing out all that money on a new one. SignatureRob Bannister >> We bought a new oven last year, and it turned out to have the >> griller inside the oven. [...] > Glad to see you're back with us, Peter. I've been away in Europe for a month. Once I get my notes organised you'll probably see the longest Letter to Sis that we've ever had, but I'll break it into manageable sections, and put it all into the same thread to help people who detest reading travelogues. > One day, I will buy a new stove too. I was really annoyed the last > time I had an expert round to mend one of the hotplates (it's > electric) and he checked my oven and informed me that it was keeping > perfect temperature. I mean, I "know" that it doesn't get hot enough, > but now, I don't really have an excuse for lashing out all that money > on a new one. For the stove, which is separate from the oven, we really lashed out and bought an induction cooktop. It cost an arm and both legs, but well worth it; after a bit of practice, you'd never want to go back to conventional electric cookers. High heat on command, and near-instantaneous switching of the applied heat. I thought you could only do the latter with gas cookers, but this is even better than gas. One of our better investments, even if it did have to be replaced (under warranty) after a lightning strike. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. >>>>>Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>>>>London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Grilling is not the same as barbecuing. Except when it is. > Grilling has the flames, or > red-hot element, above the food; barbecuing has the flames beneath. > According to COD, broiling can be either of the above - 'cooking meat > or fish by exposure to direct heat'. I said "grilled" in _my_ dialect. I speak General American, mostly. By "grilling" I mean cooking on a open metalwork grill over a charcoal or wood fire, outdoors. Most Brits and some Americans know this as "barbecuing". SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in > >London restaurants. > > I've never seen it in London, or anywhere else in the UK for that > matter. I was quite intrigued when I first came across it in the US. One of my favourite Chinese dishes that I've had in Canada and the UK is Singapore noodles. A collegue from Singapore says they don't have such a dish there. And in reference to another thread, we don't have Canadian bacon in Canada whereas they do in the USA. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada >>> Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in >>> London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > such a dish there. And in reference to another thread, we don't have > Canadian bacon in Canada whereas they do in the USA. Do they drink Singapore Sling in Singapore? SignatureSkitt Wer kann das bezahlen, wer hat das bestellt ... > >>> Drifting a bit, I wonder if "London Broil" steak is available in > >>> London restaurants. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Do they drink Singapore Sling in Singapore? At the Raffles, no less. But I suppose you'd just ask for a gin sling. In Bakewell you can't get a Bakewell tart, but they'll sell you a Bakewell pudding -- good, too. They call Welsh cakes "Welsh cakes" in Wales. I don't know from Eccles and cakes or Bath and buns. SignatureMike. The LFS entity posted thusly: >[1] Moment of insight: as I typed that, I thought of Neapolitan ice >cream, the acme of sophisticated dessert in my childhood, and realised >for the first time that the cream, pink and green slab was a pale >imitation of the Italian flag. I expect everyone else has known that for >ever. Never dawned on me until you mentioned it. I always wondered if it was a flavour mix invented in Napoli, though. > [1] Moment of insight: as I typed that, I thought of Neapolitan ice > cream, the acme of sophisticated dessert in my childhood, and realised > for the first time that the cream, pink and green slab was a pale > imitation of the Italian flag. I expect everyone else has known that for > ever. I can only remember the white, pink, and brown Neapolitan. But I grew up in Derbyshire, not the more sophisticated reaches of North London. When I worked at Woolworths in Mansfield, my first assignment was the ice cream counter (I was transferred to glassware after I blew up the soft ice cream machine). Customers asked for "napoleon" and "metropolitan" and even "them three-colour jobs" as well as Neapolitan. Fran >> [1] Moment of insight: as I typed that, I thought of Neapolitan ice >> cream, the acme of sophisticated dessert in my childhood, and realised [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > soft ice cream machine). Customers asked for "napoleon" and > "metropolitan" and even "them three-colour jobs" as well as Neapolitan. We had the strawberry-vanilla-chocolate varity WAWAL in LaLa Land, SoCal. I think I had it confused with Napoleon when I was very small, but I knew I didn't like it anyway (unless someone else would eat the chocolate part, and then only if I could get the other flavors in my dish without getting any perceptable amount of chocolate on them). SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >We had the strawberry-vanilla-chocolate varity WAWAL in LaLa Land, SoCal. I >think I had it confused with Napoleon when I was very small, but I knew I >didn't like it anyway (unless someone else would eat the chocolate part, >and then only if I could get the other flavors in my dish without getting >any perceptable amount of chocolate on them). Meat and poison, I suppose; we wanted *only* the chocolate and considered the other two "flavors" a waste of freezer space...in fact, if you took an opened carton of neapolitan out of my grandmother's freezer, chances are you'd find most of the chocolate already gone and the other two stripes still intact....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > you'd find most of the chocolate already gone and the other two stripes > still intact....r Thus it is. I do like chocolate generally -- though I prefere milk chocolate to dark, which I'm sure in itself disqualifies me from being anything approaching a proper chocoholic. I just don't care for chocolate-flavored ice cream (or coffee-flavored anything, including coffee). Chocolate-chip (in vanilla) ice cream is okay, particularly if there's some peppermint ice cream to eat with it. And a hot (chocolate) fudge sundae with vanilla ice cream is a delight that I will gladly eat -- unless there's hot caramel to be had instead. I think I'd like that Neapolitan ice cream that has the green, but I've never seen it. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >I do like chocolate generally -- though I prefere milk chocolate to dark, Heretic! Burn him! >which I'm sure in itself disqualifies me from being anything approaching a >proper chocoholic. "...huge, yellow, slablike somethings, which hung in the air in exactly the same way that bricks don't." -- DNA What you are saying is that you don't actually like chocolate at all. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > [1] Moment of insight: as I typed that, I thought of Neapolitan ice > cream, the acme of sophisticated dessert in my childhood, and realised > for the first time that the cream, pink and green slab was a pale > imitation of the Italian flag. I expect everyone else has known that for > ever. But it was years afterwards that I realised the green ice-cream was supposed to pistachio. We just knew it as green ice-cream, and I don't think I had any that actually tasted of pistachio until much later. SignatureRob Bannister [...] >[1] Moment of insight: as I typed that, I thought of Neapolitan ice >cream, the acme of sophisticated dessert in my childhood, and realised >for the first time that the cream, pink and green slab was a pale >imitation of the Italian flag. I expect everyone else has known that for >ever. Not us Australians. For some peculiar reason, our "neapolitan ice cream" is/was striped strawberry, vanilla and chocolate. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >> Interesting, since the Chicago abomination they call ""pizza"" >> is, I think, remotely akin to quiche, though Erk might [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > culinary traditions established by the French settlers of the > Great Lakes region. I grew up in such a place, and if it is any guide, that culinary tradition consisted of jello molds, green-bean-mushroom-soup-french- onion casseroles, baked rutabagas, chicken booyah (whatever that is), and fruit salads. Pizza of any sort would have been an exotic step up. Signaturerzed >> Which further makes one wonder whether Chicago "pizza" antedates >> any knowledge of actual pizza by Americans, and derives from [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and fruit salads. Pizza of any sort would have been an exotic step > up. One website seemed to speculate that the postwar American taste for so-called "casseroles" (now, I think, a food category that is fast disappearing from memory) may have lent something to the design and popularization of Chicago "pizza". SignatureSalvatore Volatile >I remember that my mother took a >"continental cookery course" at which she learned how to make a thing >called a Pisa (pronounced like the city of that name) that was more >like a quiche (not that we would have known a nasty foreign word like >"quiche") than anything you could call a pizza. WIWAL, the unforeign word for quiche was "flan". SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>I remember that my mother took a >>"continental cookery course" at which she learned how to make a thing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >WIWAL, the unforeign word for quiche was "flan". See also "savoury tart". SignatureArchie Valparaiso >>>I remember that my mother took a >>>"continental cookery course" at which she learned how to make a thing [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > See also "savoury tart". Leftpondian flan is crème caramel, notionally (and often actually) from a Spanish-speaking cultural milieu. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>I remember that my mother took a >>"continental cookery course" at which she learned how to make a thing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >WIWAL, the unforeign word for quiche was "flan". Whereas "flan" is a crème caramel dessert in the US. Widely available in this area, and quite good if made right. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >WIWAL, the unforeign word for quiche was "flan". > > Whereas "flan" is a crème caramel dessert in the US. Widely available > in this area, and quite good if made right. Only potentially confusing in print though - AmE 'flan' is 'flahn', isn't it? (I've only heard it said on 'Friends', mind you, although 'Ross Geller' did spend some time telling the other characters exactly what it was.) BrE is 'flan' with the a of cat. Randomly, Wikipedia suggests that a British flan is "traditionally served on New Year's Eve." News to me. Anyone (older than me?) want to confirm or deny it? Jac >>> WIWAL, the unforeign word for quiche was "flan". >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > served on New Year's Eve." News to me. Anyone (older than me?) want to > confirm or deny it? News to me. My recollection of Manc NYEs is hungrily waiting for midnight and the first foot to come in with a lump of coal which we were allowed to gnaw in turn. BTW, we're *all* older than you - no need to remind us. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > BTW, we're *all* older than you - no need to remind us. This is the only part of the internet where that continues to be true, however. I'm twice the age of some of the people I 'meet' regularly on LiveJournal. And nearly twice the age of some of the mums I meet at nursery. Jac >> BTW, we're *all* older than you - no need to remind us. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >And nearly twice the age of some of the mums I meet at nursery. Our grandsons call me "Dad" and my wife "Mom". When I asked Nicolai why he calls me "Dad", he stated very matter-of-factly "That's what Papa calls you. It's your name." My wife and I do get some strange looks from parents when we take the boys to the park and the boys call us "Dad" and "Mom". SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL Tony Cooper filted: >Our grandsons call me "Dad" and my wife "Mom". When I asked Nicolai >why he calls me "Dad", he stated very matter-of-factly "That's what >Papa calls you. It's your name." I'm told this is how it works in Japanese...at home, everyone is referred to by the term the youngest member of the family uses; e.g. the father (and everyone else) calls his oldest daughter "big sister".... >My wife and I do get some strange looks from parents when we take the >boys to the park and the boys call us "Dad" and "Mom". The two women who lived across the street from me when I was little were "Granny" (my great-grandmother), and "Granny Jo" (my great-aunt)....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >>> BTW, we're *all* older than you - no need to remind us. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > why he calls me "Dad", he stated very matter-of-factly "That's what > Papa calls you. It's your name." My double-maternal great-grandmother was called "Mamma" by her daughters, her grandchildren and her great-grandchildren, 'cause that was her name too. Wait till you have Nicolai's kids to mind. > My wife and I do get some strange looks from parents when we take > the boys to the park and the boys call us "Dad" and "Mom". >> Our grandsons call me "Dad" and my wife "Mom". When I asked Nicolai >> why he calls me "Dad", he stated very matter-of-factly "That's what [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >daughters, her grandchildren and her great-grandchildren, 'cause that >was her name too. Wait till you have Nicolai's kids to mind. My mum's mum was called "Nana" by her grandchildren. Nana's mother was "Grandma" to everyone including, once grandchildren had arrived, Nana. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > Our grandsons call me "Dad" and my wife "Mom". When I asked Nicolai > why he calls me "Dad", he stated very matter-of-factly "That's what > Papa calls you. It's your name." A similar thing appears to have happened with my wife's family. She and her sisters called their mom's grandmother (their great- grandomther) "Oma", German for "grandmother". Interestingly, in the next generation (Josh and his cousins), the title has moved to *their* great-grandmother (Susan's grandmother, who she called "Grandma"). Their other great-grandmother, however, is called "Gram", which is what Susan and her sisters call her. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It is one thing to be mistaken; it is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |quite another to be willfully Palo Alto, CA 94304 |ignorant | Cecil Adams kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> BTW, we're *all* older than you - no need to remind us. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And nearly twice the age of some of the mums I meet at nursery. Thanks for another reminder. If I pluck all the grey hair out of my beard and off my head, would you like to use it to stuff a cushion so you can be comfortable when you're composing this stuff? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >Randomly, Wikipedia suggests that a British flan is "traditionally >served on New Year's Eve." News to me. Anyone (older than me?) want to >confirm or deny it? Neither known nor heard of here. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ woodavens@askjennison.com had it: > >Randomly, Wikipedia suggests that a British flan is "traditionally > >served on New Year's Eve." News to me. Anyone (older than me?) want to > >confirm or deny it? > > Neither known nor heard of here. Nor here. And what's a "British flan"? I can accept all sorts of things in a flan, from bacon and eggs to sliced peaches. SignatureDavid ===== Nope. Gravity under Vista got worse. Back to XP. > woodavens@askjennison.com had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Nor here. And what's a "British flan"? I can accept all sorts of > things in a flan, from bacon and eggs to sliced peaches. Ah, that was me distinguishing 'things inna pastry case' from 'wobbly caramel thing'. Wikipedia just says 'flan'. Jac > Randomly, Wikipedia suggests that a British flan is "traditionally > served on New Year's Eve." News to me. Anyone (older than me?) want to > confirm or deny it? Seems strange to me. If anything, we tended to eat fruit flans in summer when the fruit was available. Of course, these days most things are available the year round. I don't remember a savoury tart being called a flan: that would have been something like "egg and bacon pie". SignatureRob Bannister >> Randomly, Wikipedia suggests that a British flan is "traditionally >> served on New Year's Eve." News to me. Anyone (older than me?) want to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >available the year round. I don't remember a savoury tart being called a >flan: that would have been something like "egg and bacon pie". Where I come from a pie would only be a pie if it had a pastry lid. Flans and tarts are open-topped. SignatureRobin Herts, England >>>Randomly, Wikipedia suggests that a British flan is "traditionally >>>served on New Year's Eve." News to me. Anyone (older than me?) want to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Where I come from a pie would only be a pie if it had a pastry lid. > Flans and tarts are open-topped. I sort of agree, but depth comes into it somewhere. Over a certain depth, a tart turns into a pie (in my dialect, of course). Because we only ever had fruit flans, I always associate "flan" with something covered with a glaze or thin jelly. SignatureRob Bannister The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: >>>>Randomly, Wikipedia suggests that a British flan is "traditionally >>>>served on New Year's Eve." News to me. Anyone (older than me?) want to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >only ever had fruit flans, I always associate "flan" with something >covered with a glaze or thin jelly. Interesting. I distinguish tarts from pies more on diameter than depth. a tart is just a small pie. The Robin Bignall entity posted thusly: >>> Randomly, Wikipedia suggests that a British flan is "traditionally >>> served on New Year's Eve." News to me. Anyone (older than me?) want to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Where I come from a pie would only be a pie if it had a pastry lid. >Flans and tarts are open-topped. Hmm... a pastry lid would make a lemon meringue pie into something I would not even attempt to define or describe; same for Boston Cream pie. To me, pumpkin pie, Banana Cream pie, and probably several others would be decidedly weird with pastry lids. >> >WIWAL, the unforeign word for quiche was "flan". >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > [...] > BrE is 'flan' with the a of cat. This is true, but equally AmE "pasta" is "pahsta" and BrE is "pasta" with the a of cat. I think it's hard to predict whether any particualar AmE speaker refering to the British dish would use the American "flahn" pronunciation or not. I know of one similar word where Americans tend to adopt two pronunciations with a differentiantion in meaning--and it's one rather close to home for me: The musical "gamba" with the "cat" vowel is an organ stop; with the "ah" vowel it's a viol. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >I know of one similar word where Americans tend to adopt two pronunciations >with a differentiantion in meaning--and it's one rather close to home for >me: The musical "gamba" with the "cat" vowel is an organ stop; with the >"ah" vowel it's a viol. Whereas we in the UK use the cat vowel for both. I haven't noticed it causing any confusion, though. Katy >>I know of one similar word where Americans tend to adopt two >>pronunciations with a differentiantion in meaning--and it's one rather >>close to home for me: The musical "gamba" with the "cat" vowel is an organ >>stop; with the "ah" vowel it's a viol. > > Whereas we in the UK use the cat vowel for both. Exactly. > I haven't noticed it causing any confusion, though. Nor have I, excepting only when the conversation then goes on (as it inevitably does) to a discussion of shrimps and prawns, which is an endless source of confusion. And just when you thing you've got it all sorted, someone mentions langostinos. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>I know of one similar word where Americans tend to adopt two >>>pronunciations with a differentiantion in meaning--and it's one rather [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > source of confusion. And just when you thing you've got it all sorted, > someone mentions langostinos. BrE - langoustines. SignatureRay UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1050 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! >>>>I know of one similar word where Americans tend to adopt two >>>>pronunciations with a differentiantion in meaning--and it's one rather [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >BrE - langoustines. =BerniInnE: "king prawns". SignatureArchie Valparaiso >>>>>I know of one similar word where Americans tend to adopt two >>>>>pronunciations with a differentiantion in meaning--and it's one rather [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > =BerniInnE: "king prawns". Ah. Is that what langoustines are? I always wondered. SignatureRay UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1050 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! Archie Valparaiso filted: >>> Nor have I, excepting only when the conversation then goes on (as it >>> inevitably does) to a discussion of shrimps and prawns, which is an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >=BerniInnE: "king prawns". =DixE: "mudbugs" ....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >>>>WIWAL, the unforeign word for quiche was "flan". >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > me: The musical "gamba" with the "cat" vowel is an organ stop; with the > "ah" vowel it's a viol. Gamba (pronounced with the "cat" vowel) is also a brand of pointe shoe. Fran > Gamba (pronounced with the "cat" vowel) is also a brand of pointe shoe. I live and learn, having never had the occasion to go shopping for pointe shoes and learn this at first hand. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > This is true, but equally AmE "pasta" is "pahsta" and BrE is "pasta" with > the a of cat. Note, though, that in some AmE accents (e.g., ChiE) the "ah" of "pasta" is about where the "a" of "cat" is in some BrE accents. SignatureSalvatore Volatile >> This is true, but equally AmE "pasta" is "pahsta" and BrE is "pasta" with >> the a of cat. > >Note, though, that in some AmE accents (e.g., ChiE) the "ah" of "pasta" is >about where the "a" of "cat" is in some BrE accents. Most notably, PiratE and IanpaislE. SignatureArchie Valparaiso "JPG" <j_peasemold_gruntfuttock@hotmail.com> wrote in message > Don't knock it - in my 50s childhood in a working class household cans > of Heinz spaghetti in tomato sauce were the closest we ever got to > Italian cuisine . > > > -- > > Mike. You poor soul. Coming from a town where Italian-Americans slightly outnumber Irish-Americans and being next to an Italian-American neighborhood of Boston, Italian cuisine is standard fare. Even my first generation Irish-American mother made her own tomato sauce from scratch. Chef Boy-ar-dee and other such abominations were scorned by all. > "JPG" <j_peasemold_gruntfuttock@hotmail.com> wrote in message > Don't knock > it - in my 50s childhood in a working class household cans [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Irish-Americans and being next to an Italian-American neighborhood of > Boston, Italian cuisine is standard fare. Don't be so smug. So-called "Italian" cuisine in Boston and environs has always struck me as being substandard at best, and essentially a nightmarish Irish fantasy of what Italian food is thought to be (ketchup-covered macaroni 'n' cheese, etc.) in the usual case. This is also true of Boston's so-called "pizza". The one thing I will say is that "Italian" food in Boston is generally somewhat better than what you find under that name in the Midwest. SignatureSalvatore Volatile >So-called "Italian" cuisine in Boston and environs has always struck >me as being substandard at best, and essentially a nightmarish Irish >fantasy of what Italian food is thought to be (ketchup-covered >macaroni 'n' cheese, etc.) in the usual case. Thus says the man who has evidently never actually eaten in Boston. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>So-called "Italian" cuisine in Boston and environs has always struck >>me as being substandard at best, and essentially a nightmarish Irish >>fantasy of what Italian food is thought to be (ketchup-covered >>macaroni 'n' cheese, etc.) in the usual case. > > Thus says the man who has evidently never actually eaten in Boston. It does seem to me that Ray was referring, in a semi-backward way, to his mother's and perhaps the mothers of others, in their manner of cooking pizza and the like. Home-made pizza might differ somewhat from from standard restaurant (or pizzeria) fare. But Ray and you are some number of generations removed from mine. Pizza, to my knowledge, was not available among my neighbors in my childhood, and certainly not in local restaurants. Not until I was in highschool in the mid nineteen-fifties did I see magazine articles about the new Italian fad. 'Course, we didn't "eat out", back then, so I didn't find restaurant pizza (I suppose the NY kind) until late in that decade, when I was in college. [...] > But Ray and you are some number of generations removed from mine. > Pizza, to my knowledge, was not available among my neighbors in my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > didn't find restaurant pizza (I suppose the NY kind) until late in that > decade, when I was in college. _Mad_ mag had a thing about pizza: people were always getting strings of cheese stuck to their hands. It seemed to me like commentary on a new fad. Did they also use the expression "pizza pie"? SignatureMike. > [...] >> But Ray and you are some number of generations removed from mine. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > of cheese stuck to their hands. It seemed to me like commentary on a > new fad. Did they also use the expression "pizza pie"? Well, some people thought, from Dean Martin's song, that the pizza pie was made from cheese. Otherwise, in my group, we just had pizza. (I would have used "", but that would have brought up another of SalVo's opinions, and I don't care for having that flavor repeat itself.) _Mad_ mag may have come out just around the time I was discovering pizza, but I am afraid I was a bit more interested in _Playboy_. >>[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > mag may have come out just around the time I was discovering pizza, but > I am afraid I was a bit more interested in _Playboy_. Back in the 50s, we took in lodgers, and one of the couples we had was American. One day, they spent ages making what they called "pizza pie", which my first taste of anything like pizza. I'm not sure if they both from Ohio or if that was just where the man was based for his PhD. OT: I corresponded with them for quite a while, but after they divorced I lost touch. The wife was an organist who had given recitals at Washington Cathedral and fostered my interest in classical music. SignatureRob Bannister > >>So-called "Italian" cuisine in Boston and environs has always struck > >>me as being substandard at best, and essentially a nightmarish Irish [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > didn't find restaurant pizza (I suppose the NY kind) until late in that > decade, when I was in college. Mybe in the 19th century when you were born things were so. But in the mid 20th when i was born {1955} things had changed for the better. >> >>So-called "Italian" cuisine in Boston and environs has always >> >>struck [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > mid > 20th when i was born {1955} things had changed for the better. Maybe our Italian neighbors hadn't eaten or made pizza before they came to the US. I knew them in the '40s, but the ones I dealt with had been here spoke English as if they had been born here. . .and they had. They cooked spaghetti, raised a bit of garlic, and were considered related to the Gypsies, because no one else in the area went out in the fields and forests to harvest mushrooms and dandelion greens (It was suspected that magic and a silver blade were needed so as to avoid getting the poisonous variety of mushrooms). This was a very small town in Wisconsin. Yeah, the war got there, but the GIs on their return weren't likely to be allowed into the kitchens. So the importation of a pizza restaurant had to wait before the market brought the Americanized (yeah, the NY type) version to our cities. Note: the small towns didn't provide a big enough market for pizza restaurants until the late '60s. My God. That town didn't even have a Chinese restaurant. . .and the Chinese in the cities were not only cooking, but doing laundry, too, long before the pizza came. > Maybe our Italian neighbors hadn't eaten or made pizza before they came > to the US. I knew them in the '40s, but the ones I dealt with had been [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > suspected that magic and a silver blade were needed so as to avoid > getting the poisonous variety of mushrooms). Which gets back to the question of whether pizza is really an Italian dish or an American invention. Out of the many Italians I know or have known, I can't think of one who cooked his own pizza until the recent fad for building your own backyard pizza oven started. SignatureRob Bannister >>> >>So-called "Italian" cuisine in Boston and environs has always >>> >>struck [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >Chinese in the cities were not only cooking, but doing laundry, too, >long before the pizza came. I'd like to propose the single-scare-quoted "pizza to join pizza and "pizza" in Sal's classifications: the base is Dead Proper but the topping is Dead Wrong. I had some "pizza only yesterday at a seemingly promising place in Cadiz run by Sicilians (so it was a square jobby). The base was superb -- thin and crisp yet not brittle -- but it was ruined by the topping: far too much bitter tomato paste, a merely symbolic smidgin of Swedish mozzarella and some kind of congealed cold cut so disgusting it made British luncheon meat look like the best prosciutto. Is "pizza also to be found in America? SignatureArchie Valparaiso > I'd like to propose the single-scare-quoted "pizza to join pizza and > "pizza" in Sal's classifications: the base is Dead Proper but the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is "pizza also to be found in America? Not really, because if the "topping" is that bad the crust is likely to be wrong too. That describes most "pizza" in the US, ranging from Erk's Chicago "pizza" to Pat's "NY-style" to the bizarre kinds that Skitt and Sparky eat on the Coast. SignatureSalvatore Volatile >>So-called "Italian" cuisine in Boston and environs has always struck >>me as being substandard at best, and essentially a nightmarish Irish >>fantasy of what Italian food is thought to be (ketchup-covered >>macaroni 'n' cheese, etc.) in the usual case. > > Thus says the man who has evidently never actually eaten in Boston. Perhaps he's eaten in "Boston". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The Society for the Preservation of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Tithesis commends your ebriated and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |scrutable use of delible and |defatigable, which are gainly, sipid kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |and couth. We are gruntled and (650)857-7572 |consolate that you have the ertia and |eptitude to choose such putably http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |pensible tithesis, which we parage. > >>So-called "Italian" cuisine in Boston and environs has always struck > >>me as being substandard at best, and essentially a nightmarish Irish [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Perhaps he's eaten in "Boston". My money's on " 'eaten' in Boston". SignatureMike. >> > Thus says the man who has evidently never actually eaten in Boston. >> >> Perhaps he's eaten in "Boston". >> > My money's on " 'eaten' in Boston". No, you can actually eat in Boston. There are many excellent seafood restaurants, far superior to those you can find in, say, New York (LPIA). I also recently had lunch at a restaurant in Boston's Chinatown which was pretty good. SignatureSalvatore Volatile > >So-called "Italian" cuisine in Boston and environs has always struck > >me as being substandard at best, and essentially a nightmarish Irish > >fantasy of what Italian food is thought to be (ketchup-covered > >macaroni 'n' cheese, etc.) in the usual case. > > Thus says the man who has evidently never actually eaten in Boston. I's say you never have. > Don't knock it - in my 50s childhood in a working class household cans > of Heinz spaghetti in tomato sauce were the closest we ever got to > Italian cuisine . Still a nostalgic guilty pleasure for me. I bought and enjoyed a tin of it only the other day (have we discussed the usage of "the other day"?) Mike M > An interesting question, to which I have no answer. But it does raise a > deeper one: how have we got ourselves into a culture in which children > can be offered food so revolting that it has to be bizarrely dressed up > before the poor chicks will eat it? What's so revolting about alphabet soup? I bought a box of the relevant noodles for my son just this morning: <http://www.ronzoni.com/cooking/PastaShape.asp?S=2&C=3&N=Soup+%26+Side+S hapes> SignatureSML > > An interesting question, to which I have no answer. But it does raise a > > deeper one: how have we got ourselves into a culture in which children [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > <http://www.ronzoni.com/cooking/PastaShape.asp?S=2&C=3&N=Soup+%26+Side+S > hapes> Oh, that's absolutely non-revolting: I was thinking too narrowly of that tinned pasta in tomatoish slime, which is one of the things that breaks my heart Toogood-wise when I pass through supermarkets. (Say, where. . ?) The late Fanny Craddock, an early TV cook, actually said in a book that a good emergency hors d'oeuvre was to mix a tin of this spaghetti with a tin of macedoine of vegetables. This struck me as perhaps one of those claims so outrageous that nobody would dare publish it if it wasn't actually true, so I bought the makings and tried it. But it turned out to be one of those claims so outrageous that it was merely outrageous. I can almost taste it forty years on. SignatureMike. > Oh, that's absolutely non-revolting: I was thinking too narrowly of > that tinned pasta in tomatoish slime, which is one of the things that > breaks my heart Toogood-wise when I pass through supermarkets. (Say, > where. . ?) Oh! Those things. I refuse to acknowledge them when I sail down the aisle. SignatureSML >> > An interesting question, to which I have no answer. But it does raise a >> > deeper one: how have we got ourselves into a culture in which children [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >turned out to be one of those claims so outrageous that it was merely >outrageous. I can almost taste it forty years on. Wasn't she also to blame for the once-ubiquitous Campbell's Cream of Mushroom Soup vol-au-vent? SignatureArchie Valparaiso [...] > >The late Fanny Craddock, an early TV cook, actually said in a book that > >a good emergency hors d'oeuvre was to mix a tin of this spaghetti with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Wasn't she also to blame for the once-ubiquitous Campbell's Cream of > Mushroom Soup vol-au-vent? It's easily credible. The woman was a fine example to us all of the Great Truth that all you need for a successful meeja career is above-average bull-headed persistence. SignatureMike. On Jan 5, 2:55 am, "The Apostropher Royal" <apostropher_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Problem posed in another thread (acknowledgements to Tom) > > When you buy alphabetti Spaghetti in Iceland, do you get eths and > thorns? Is > there Cyrillic and Greek alphabet pasta? Spaghetti are strings, by definition. The Apostropher Royal (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message <1167994544.722316.128440@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: > Problem posed in another thread (acknowledgements to Tom) > > When you buy alphabetti Spaghetti in Iceland, do you get eths and > thorns? In Finland do they get joined together into lots of doubles? > Is there Cyrillic and Greek alphabet pasta? Dunno but I'm now wondering if there are kosher and halal versions you serve up backwards (: SignatureTerms and conditions apply. Batteries not included. Subject to status. Contains moderate language. Always read the label. Keep out of children. Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > Problem posed in another thread (acknowledgements to Tom) > > When you buy alphabetti Spaghetti in Iceland, do you get eths and > thorns? Is there Cyrillic and Greek alphabet pasta? In Japan, do you > get katakana or hiragana? Do they have alphabet pasta in China, and > if so, how big are the bags? Doing a Google Image search for "alphabet soup" and "greek" turns up packages labelled in Greek, but with comments to the effect that the pasta itself is only Latin letters. Substituting "cyrillic" turns up one image, but it's too small to be sure what shape the pasta is. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |holding a gun to somebody's head. Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law. |If you don't pay your taxes, you'll kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine, (650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to |escape from jail, you'll be shot. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke >> Problem posed in another thread (acknowledgements to Tom) >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > pasta itself is only Latin letters. Substituting "cyrillic" turns up > one image, but it's too small to be sure what shape the pasta is. I can assure you that there is (or, at least, was thirty-something years ago) Russian cyrillic alphabet soup, but I'm also dead sure that it didn't contain all 33 letters. I'd be surprised to see more than 30, actually, but I still remember trying to catch both <S>/<Ш> and <S;:>/<Щ> (and to tell one from the other). SignatureAlec St.Petersburg, Russia [30E18 59N56] "The Apostropher Royal" wrote in message... > When you buy alphabetti Spaghetti in Iceland, do you get eths and > thorns? Is > there Cyrillic and Greek alphabet pasta? In Japan, do you get katakana > or > hiragana? Unfortunately, no. We also have "alphabet biscuit" (in the BrE sense), but not "katakana (or hiragana) biscuit". SignatureNobuko Iwasaki |
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