verb question
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Snis Pilbor - 06 Jan 2007 19:49 GMT Hi,
studying some other languages, I notice that in many languages, the "dictionary" form (ie, the form found in a dictionary) of the verb is the infinitive. Whereas, in English, the dictionary form is the infinite minus the particle "to". My question is, what is this called? Well, it seems to be used in more than one place, but there is one in particular where I don't know the name for it. Observe:
"I run." - verb is present tense "Run!" - verb is imperitive "I watch you run." - here I have no idea what to say about the run verb
Maybe in the latter, it's actually infinitive, but the verb "watch" replaces the particle "to"? But the problem with this theory is that we also have sentences such as "I watch rabbits", where "to" just wouldn't belong.
Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2007 20:04 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > we also have sentences such as "I watch rabbits", where "to" just > wouldn't belong. The dominant school of thought says that the "run" form is the only true infinitive (known as the "bare infinitive" when it needs to be identified), and that the particle "to" is sometimes added for structural purposes. This makes sense; but a few recalcitrants like me maintain that English has two forms of the present infinitive, one with and one without "to", as well as other infinitives in periphrastic (=multi-word) form. I admit that the argument is pretty pointless, really.
 Signature Mike.
Robert Bannister - 06 Jan 2007 23:45 GMT >>Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > (=multi-word) form. I admit that the argument is pretty pointless, > really. Still, if every verb was listed in the dictionary under T for "to", we'd have a fine mess.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Mark Brader - 07 Jan 2007 08:26 GMT Rob Bannister writes:
> Still, if every verb was listed in the dictionary under T for "to", > we'd have a fine mess. Don't you mean "...it'd be easier to look them up because we'd only have to go to one place"? :-)
 Signature Mark Brader "Outside of nearly having two head-on collisions, msb@vex.net we found driving in England to be fairly easy." Toronto -- Cher Classick
Purl Gurl - 06 Jan 2007 20:54 GMT (snipped)
> studying some other languages, I notice that in many languages, the > "dictionary" form (ie, the form found in a dictionary) of the verb is > the infinitive. Whereas, in English, the dictionary form is the > infinite minus the particle "to".
> "I watch you run." - here I have no idea what to say about the run verb For your example sentence, "run" is cast as an intransitive verb which requires no infinitive for your construct. There is no object of the verb "run." Nothing is acted upon nor affected by your verb.
"He is to run."
Now "run" is a linking verb but still intransitive; no direct object. Some would rather label "run" an infinitive because of "to" preceeding. This is of debate because this case example "run" is _more of_ a verb, a intransitive verb, than infinitive. Others will debate this case example cannot be a linking verb because "run" does not "sense" anything, such as taste, smell, feel and other "six senses" verbs which are, typically, linking verbs. I would label this case intransitive and stop there.
"She is to have a run."
This case example, our "run" becomes a noun but leans towards being an infinitive because of "to have" preceeding. Nonetheless, a noun with usage of an "a" indefinitive article.
Challenge with English is there are over eighteen-thousand grammar rules, many of which conflict with other rules. My habit is to lean towards the "sense" of a sentence. Context, of course, can have a significant effect upon how we view or sense a sentence. Oft best to stick with the obvious and most simple; intransitive, transitive. Either a verb does not act upon something, intransitive, or does act upon something, transitive. Beyond those two cases lies confusion and very often, heated debate.
You comment on other languages and dictionaries. My native tongue is not a written language, hence no dictionary; interpretive words.
In my native tongue, Choctaw, I know of thirty-one types of "run" with each enjoying significant differences in meaning. Some examples but not all thirty-one plus cases,
hakmo - run, as "run!" akmochi - active running or to run okchusba - a sore which runs puss okfaya - to run wood into your skin, splinter ibaklatinli - to run at the nose; snotty nose.
Then we have "run" words for, run after, run against, run along, run around, run away, run between, run crosswise, run down, run from, run high, run over, run through, run under and others.
Contrasting English, most of our Choctaw run words are directional; you can literally point to the direction of a run.
When working with understanding English grammar rules, work towards finding the obvious, first, then venture into the vague.
Taha
Robert Lieblich - 06 Jan 2007 21:22 GMT [Dammit, Kiralynne, you were doing so well. And then you decided to venture into English usage and grammar. And as usual you screwed up but good. For the benefit of the OP, there follows as succinct a critique as I can manage.]
> (snipped) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > "I watch you run." - here I have no idea what to say about the run verb "Run" is an infinitive. Most modern grammarians and linguists agree that you don't need "to" preceding the infinitive form to have an infinitive. The "bare" form is the infinitive, and "to", when followed by the infinitive, is a "particle" that fills in gaps in the syntax. Anything Purl Gurl says to the contrary is wrong.
> For your example sentence, "run" is cast as an intransitive verb which > requires no infinitive for your construct. There is no object of the > verb "run." Nothing is acted upon nor affected by your verb. The main verb of the sample sentence is, of course, "watch." "You" and "run" can be considered objects. If the sentence were "I watch you *to* run," it would be reasonably clear that "to run" is an infinitive serving as a noun and the object of "watch." (Can "to run" serve as a noun? Of course. How about "To run a race is one of my greatest pleasures." "To run" is the subject of that sentence -- it fills the place of a noun.)
> "He is to run." > > Now "run" is a linking verb No, no, no. Linking verbs by definition *link*. Run in "he is to run" doesn't have a link at either end. "Is" is the linking verb; it connects "he" to "to run."
> but still intransitive; no direct object. Infinitives can take objects but don't have to. In "He is to run," there's no object (although semantically one may be implied: "Will he be in the ract? He is to run). But in "He is to run the race" run" has an object. One may call "run" in the sentence "He is to run" an intransitive infinitive. It's just another label for an infinitive with no object.
Note also, that linking verbs do not link subjects to objects, so they are intransitive. Linking (aka "copulative") verbs connect subjects to predicate nominatives and predicate adjectives. In "He is my brother," "is" links the subject "he" to the predicate nominative "my brother." In "He is unwell," "is" links the subject "he" to the predicate adjective "unwell." "Is" in this form is invariably linking, though it can have other uses in other sentence forms. Conversely, other verbs can be "linking." For example, in "He feels unwell," "feels" links "he" and "unwell." Compare "He feels the bananas," in which "feels" is a transitive verb and takes the object "the bananas."
> Some would rather label "run" an infinitive because of "to" preceeding. No joke! What else could it be?
> This is of debate because this case example "run" is _more of_ a verb, > a intransitive verb, than infinitive. Infinitives *are* verb forms. They can function as nouns, but they are verb forms. Indeed, no matter what their function may be, they remain verb forms. They never lose their verbness. PG is talking nonsense, as usual.
> Others will debate this case example > cannot be a linking verb because "run" does not "sense" anything, such > as taste, smell, feel and other "six senses" verbs which are, typically, > linking verbs. I would label this case intransitive and stop there. This is too confused for a sensible answer.
> "She is to have a run."
> This case example, our "run" becomes a noun Damn straight. English is great at using words in varying ways (or, as some would have it, as different parts of speech).
> but leans towards being > an infinitive because of "to have" preceeding. Totally wrong yet again. "To have a run" is an infinitive with an object. "Run" is the object, and as such it is a noun. The fact that it can also be a verb has no bearing on the subject. If the sentence were "She is to have an operation," would "operation" lean toward being an infinitive?
> Nonetheless, a noun with usage of an "a" indefinitive article. True. You should have stopped there.
> Challenge with English is there are over eighteen-thousand grammar > rules, many of which conflict with other rules. My habit is to lean > towards the "sense" of a sentence. ... and ignore any sort of sensible grammatical analysis.
> Context, of course, can have DOES have
> a significant effect upon how we view or sense a sentence. Oft best > to stick with the obvious and most simple; intransitive, transitive. > Either a verb does not act upon something, intransitive, or does act > upon something, transitive. Beyond those two cases lies confusion > and very often, heated debate. But that's no excuse for adding to the confusion. Better to keep silent and be thought a fool ...
[ ... ]
> When working with understanding English grammar rules, work towards > finding the obvious, first, then venture into the vague. ... and for heaven's sake ignore Purl Gurl.
 Signature Bob Lieblich Mr. Cleanup
Purl Gurl - 06 Jan 2007 23:26 GMT >>cannot be a linking verb because "run" does not "sense" anything, such >>as taste, smell, feel and other "six senses" verbs which are, typically, >>linking verbs. I would label this case intransitive and stop there.
> This is too confused for a sensible answer. Your honor! You are flaunting your ignorance of English language usage. Use of our human physical senses to instruct about linking verbs is one of the most basic language lessons taught during elementary level schooling.
To see, to hear, to smell, to taste, to feel and, of course, our most critical sixth sense, to think. Those are linking verbs and we teachers use our, plural, bodies to instruct about those linking verbs. What an easy lesson! If you sense something, you are sensing a linking verb.
I am baffled by your persistent hostility towards others, especially your linking your hostility with your ignorance.
What I present is a basic elementary school lesson taught to literally millions of children. Off hand, I would comment you were born a cranky old balding man who never enjoyed the innocence and tribulations of childhood.
Your smug arrogance makes a fool of you no matter how much you shout down others. This is not your Queen's court of law. This is the court of public opinion and you do not argue well your case.
Taha
Robert Lieblich - 06 Jan 2007 23:50 GMT > >>cannot be a linking verb because "run" does not "sense" anything, such > >>as taste, smell, feel and other "six senses" verbs which are, typically, > >>linking verbs. I would label this case intransitive and stop there. > > > This is too confused for a sensible answer. [ ... ]
> I am baffled by your persistent hostility towards others, especially > your linking your hostility with your ignorance. I am not hostile toward you, Kiralynne. I am hostile to the ignorance you put forth as if it represents a useful description of the functioning of the English language. As I told you before you posted your most recent fantasy on a theme of grammar, you're a lot of fun as long as you stay off-topic in this group. As for whether you are ignorant or I am, it's obviously a mug's game to argue that with you. Our conflicting views on English grammar and usage are there for anyone crazy enough to want to compare them.
> What I present is a basic elementary school lesson taught to > literally millions of children. No, Ms. S.. what you present is a funhouse-mirror reflection of basic English syntax. My mission, which I have decided to accept, is to correct your errors lest the innocent be deceived.
> Off hand, I would comment you > were born a cranky old balding man who never enjoyed the innocence > and tribulations of childhood. It's kinda hard not to pass through childhood. Is your point that I didn't *enjoy* it? If so, you're quite wrong. My childhood had the same mixture of pleasure and pain that most childhoods have. I was, of course, quite precocious, but I survived the consequences relatively unscathed. As for "balding," I am quite proud of my mane of snowy hair, envied by many men quite younger than I. A not-too-ancient picture of me, mane included, can be found at <http://alt-usage-english.org/AUE_gallery/robert_lieblich.html>.
> Your smug arrogance makes a fool of you no matter how much > you shout down others. This is not your Queen's court of law. > This is the court of public opinion and you do not argue well > your case. I'll discuss grammar and usage as necessary, and I'll happily participate in good-natured badinage, but I'm not going to exchange this sort of crap with you. And speaking of English usage, consider this: <http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=projection>, def. 6b.
Ready to go back to good-natured badinage?
 Signature Bob (Hirsute) Lieblich
Purl Gurl - 07 Jan 2007 00:11 GMT >>What I present is a basic elementary school lesson taught to >>literally millions of children.
> No, Ms. S.. what you present is a funhouse-mirror reflection of basic > English syntax. My mission, which I have decided to accept, is to > correct your errors lest the innocent be deceived. A man on a mission! A savior, a one man protectorate, a hero, a word Rambo, the ultimate messiah promulgating the Good Word! The World According To Robby!
Best gather yourself a formidable army of Red Coats armed with Webster's dictionaries, thesauruses and, and, ah shoot, what is the name of the grammar geek back around the turn of the century whose book has been out of print for a century? You know, the boy you always cite as ultimate authority, last printed 1909 and 1921, if my memory fails me.
Well, so, gather your army of grammar Red Coats because this heathen Indian is a habitué of Samuel Clemens! You will be a very busy boy policing my rebellious American articles.
Such a blessing for our innocent out there to enjoy the protection of an English barrister on a mission.
* giggles *
Taha
Robert Lieblich - 07 Jan 2007 00:20 GMT > >>What I present is a basic elementary school lesson taught to > >>literally millions of children. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > a word Rambo, the ultimate messiah promulgating the Good Word! > The World According To Robby! As I said on another thread, PG, you have no sense of irony. You only think you do. And as long as contiue to slather it on, nothing will change.
[ ... ]
 Signature Bob (Irony Personified) Lieblich
Martin Ambuhl - 06 Jan 2007 22:01 GMT > Hi, > > studying some other languages, I notice that in many languages, the > "dictionary" form (ie, the form found in a dictionary) of the verb is > the infinitive. Whereas, in English, the dictionary form is the > infinite minus the particle "to". My question is, what is this called? It is called the infinitive. You have it backwards. In 'to sit', the particle 'to' is added to the infinitive 'sit'. It is not true that 'sit' is the result of removing 'to' from a putative longer infinitive.
Note that many bilingual dictionaries will list the first person singular present form rather than the infinitive. You will find many Latin-English dictionaries, for example, that have 'tempero' or 'sum' as headwords and many others that 'temperare' or 'esse'. As it happens, for most English words these are the same form, with rare exceptions like 'am' and 'be'.
Snis Pilbor - 07 Jan 2007 00:03 GMT > > Hi, > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > for most English words these are the same form, with rare exceptions > like 'am' and 'be'. Ahh, this is extremely illuminating. I guess my confusion is because very often, "vocabulary sets" will look like this:
comer = to eat poder = to be able (to) poner = to put ir = to go, etc.
The LHS of the table is a list of infinitives, thus the natural (wrong?) conclusion is that the RHS is as well. When, I guess, what is really going on is that it isn't a *verb* difference between the languages, but a *grammar* difference: English requires the "to" particle where many, many languages do not. As evidenced by Spanish "puedo ir" vs. English "I'm able to go". Or Esperanto "mi volas sidi" vs. English "I want to sit".
In my own defense, I think it's a mistake with which Spanish teachers everywhere are afflicted, and which they generously transmit to their students =)
Robert Lieblich - 07 Jan 2007 00:17 GMT [ ... ]
> Ahh, this is extremely illuminating. I guess my confusion is because > very often, "vocabulary sets" will look like this: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > everywhere are afflicted, and which they generously transmit to their > students =) It's a mistake with which most native speakers of English who teach the language are also afflicted -- as are most native speakers who don't teach it. There is a vast amount of misinformation about English in circulation. If you have the patience for a good discussion of but one example, you might want to consult this recent posting at the blog Language Log: <http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003984.html#more>. The situation isn't helped when the likes of Purl Gurl come along and spout gibberish in response to sincere inquiries, but that's a relatively minor problem in comparison and pretty much limited to this newsgroup.
I'm only an amateur (as is true of most AUE participants), but I'd like to think I have some minimal grasp of how the English language actually works -- at least enough to discuss the relationship between the particle "to" and the bare infinitive. I suspect, however, that if you asked a random sample of 100 adult native speakers of English what the infinitive form of "eat" is, those who did not plead complete ignrance (probably about half) would almost unanimously respond "to eat." Asked what "to" is in "to eat," most of those who could answer at all would say it is a preposition. I suppose a decent argument could develop over the correctness of those views (I'm trying not to trigger one), but the interesting thing to me is that even if you treat these views as acceptable, almost no one is aware of the analysis that most linguists and professional grammarians have adopted, which is quite different.
This group is a useful place for discussion of issues such as these, but be wary of accepting as gospel anything you hear from anyone -- me included.
 Signature Bob Lieblich With lots to be humble about
Cece - 11 Jan 2007 21:05 GMT Snis Pilbor ha escrito:
> > > Hi, > > > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > everywhere are afflicted, and which they generously transmit to their > students =) "Puedo ir" may be translated "I can go." More likely then "I'm able to go," depending on context and fine shadings of meaning.
"I want to sit down" sounds better than "I want to sit."
Can/could, may/might, will/would -- are strange things in English; none has an actual infinitive form, only the two I've given, and people can argue forever over their exact meaning and use.
Cece
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