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verb question

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Snis Pilbor - 06 Jan 2007 19:49 GMT
Hi,

studying some other languages, I notice that in many languages, the
"dictionary" form (ie, the form found in a dictionary) of the verb is
the infinitive.  Whereas, in English, the dictionary form is the
infinite minus the particle "to".  My question is, what is this called?
Well, it seems to be used in more than one place, but there is one in
particular where I don't know the name for it.  Observe:

"I run." - verb is present tense
"Run!" - verb is imperitive
"I watch you run." - here I have no idea what to say about the run verb

Maybe in the latter, it's actually infinitive, but the verb "watch"
replaces the particle "to"?  But the problem with this theory is that
we also have sentences such as "I watch rabbits", where "to" just
wouldn't belong.
Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2007 20:04 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> we also have sentences such as "I watch rabbits", where "to" just
> wouldn't belong.

The dominant school of thought says that the "run" form is the only
true infinitive (known as the "bare infinitive" when it needs to be
identified), and that the particle "to" is sometimes added for
structural purposes. This makes sense; but a few recalcitrants like me
maintain that English has two forms of the present infinitive, one with
and one without "to", as well as other infinitives in periphrastic
(=multi-word) form. I admit that the argument is pretty pointless,
really.

Signature

Mike.

Robert Bannister - 06 Jan 2007 23:45 GMT
>>Hi,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> (=multi-word) form. I admit that the argument is pretty pointless,
> really.

Still, if every verb was listed in the dictionary under T for "to", we'd
have a fine mess.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Mark Brader - 07 Jan 2007 08:26 GMT
Rob Bannister writes:
> Still, if every verb was listed in the dictionary under T for "to",
> we'd have a fine mess.

Don't you mean "...it'd be easier to look them up because we'd only
have to go to one place"?  :-)
Signature

Mark Brader           "Outside of nearly having two head-on collisions,
msb@vex.net            we found driving in England to be fairly easy."
Toronto                                                 -- Cher Classick

Purl Gurl - 06 Jan 2007 20:54 GMT
(snipped)

> studying some other languages, I notice that in many languages, the
> "dictionary" form (ie, the form found in a dictionary) of the verb is
> the infinitive.  Whereas, in English, the dictionary form is the
> infinite minus the particle "to".

> "I watch you run." - here I have no idea what to say about the run verb

For your example sentence, "run" is cast as an intransitive verb which
requires no infinitive for your construct. There is no object of the
verb "run." Nothing is acted upon nor affected by your verb.

"He is to run."

Now "run" is a linking verb but still intransitive; no direct object.
Some would rather label "run" an infinitive because of "to" preceeding.
This is of debate because this case example "run" is _more of_ a verb,
a intransitive verb, than infinitive. Others will debate this case example
cannot be a linking verb because "run" does not "sense" anything, such
as taste, smell, feel and other "six senses" verbs which are, typically,
linking verbs. I would label this case intransitive and stop there.

"She is to have a run."

This case example, our "run" becomes a noun but leans towards being
an infinitive because of "to have" preceeding. Nonetheless, a noun
with usage of an "a" indefinitive article.

Challenge with English is there are over eighteen-thousand grammar
rules, many of which conflict with other rules. My habit is to lean
towards the "sense" of a sentence. Context, of course, can have a
significant effect upon how we view or sense a sentence. Oft best
to stick with the obvious and most simple; intransitive, transitive.
Either a verb does not act upon something, intransitive, or does act
upon something, transitive. Beyond those two cases lies confusion
and very often, heated debate.

You comment on other languages and dictionaries. My native tongue
is not a written language, hence no dictionary; interpretive words.

In my native tongue, Choctaw, I know of thirty-one types of "run"
with each enjoying significant differences in meaning. Some examples
but not all thirty-one plus cases,

hakmo - run, as "run!"
akmochi - active running or to run
okchusba - a sore which runs puss
okfaya - to run wood into your skin, splinter
ibaklatinli - to run at the nose; snotty nose.

Then we have "run" words for, run after, run against, run along,
run around, run away, run between, run crosswise, run down, run
from, run high, run over, run through, run under and others.

Contrasting English, most of our Choctaw run words are directional;
you can literally point to the direction of a run.

When working with understanding English grammar rules, work towards
finding the obvious, first, then venture into the vague.

Taha
Robert Lieblich - 06 Jan 2007 21:22 GMT
[Dammit, Kiralynne, you were doing so well.  And then you decided to
venture into English usage and grammar.  And as usual you screwed up
but good.  For the benefit of the OP, there follows as succinct a
critique as I can manage.]

> (snipped)
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> > "I watch you run." - here I have no idea what to say about the run verb

"Run" is an infinitive.  Most modern grammarians and linguists agree
that you don't need "to" preceding the infinitive form to have an
infinitive.  The "bare" form is the infinitive, and "to", when
followed by the infinitive, is a "particle" that fills in gaps in the
syntax.  Anything Purl Gurl says to the contrary is wrong.

> For your example sentence, "run" is cast as an intransitive verb which
> requires no infinitive for your construct. There is no object of the
> verb "run." Nothing is acted upon nor affected by your verb.

The main verb of the sample sentence is, of course, "watch."  "You"
and "run" can be considered objects.  If the sentence were "I watch
you *to* run," it would be reasonably clear that "to run" is an
infinitive serving as a noun and the object of "watch."  (Can "to run"
serve as a noun?  Of course.  How about "To run a race is one of my
greatest pleasures."  "To run" is the subject of that sentence -- it
fills the place of a noun.)

> "He is to run."
>
> Now "run" is a linking verb

No, no, no.  Linking verbs by definition *link*.  Run in "he is to
run" doesn't have a link at either end.  "Is" is the linking verb; it
connects "he" to "to run."

> but still intransitive; no direct object.

Infinitives can take objects but don't have to.  In "He is to run,"
there's no object (although semantically one may be implied: "Will he
be in the ract? He is to run).  But in "He is to run the race" run"
has an object.  One may call "run" in the sentence "He is to run" an
intransitive infinitive.  It's just another label for an infinitive
with no object.

Note also, that linking verbs do not link subjects to objects, so they
are intransitive.  Linking (aka "copulative") verbs connect subjects
to predicate nominatives and predicate adjectives.  In "He is my
brother," "is" links the subject "he" to the predicate nominative "my
brother."   In "He is unwell," "is" links the subject "he" to the
predicate adjective "unwell."  "Is" in this form is invariably
linking, though it can have other uses in other sentence forms.
Conversely, other verbs can be "linking."  For example, in "He feels
unwell," "feels" links "he" and "unwell."   Compare "He feels the
bananas," in which "feels" is a transitive verb and takes the object
"the bananas."

> Some would rather label "run" an infinitive because of "to" preceeding.

No joke!  What else could it be?

> This is of debate because this case example "run" is _more of_ a verb,
> a intransitive verb, than infinitive.

Infinitives *are* verb forms.  They can function as nouns, but they
are verb forms.  Indeed, no matter what their function may be, they
remain verb forms. They never lose their verbness.  PG is talking
nonsense, as usual.

> Others will debate this case example
> cannot be a linking verb because "run" does not "sense" anything, such
> as taste, smell, feel and other "six senses" verbs which are, typically,
> linking verbs. I would label this case intransitive and stop there.

This is too confused for a sensible answer.

> "She is to have a run."

> This case example, our "run" becomes a noun

Damn straight.  English is great at using words in varying ways (or,
as some would have it, as different parts of speech).

> but leans towards being
> an infinitive because of "to have" preceeding.

Totally wrong yet again.  "To have a run" is an infinitive with an
object.  "Run" is the object, and as such it is a noun.  The fact that
it can also be a verb has no bearing on the subject.  If the sentence
were "She is to have an operation," would "operation" lean toward
being an infinitive?

> Nonetheless, a noun with usage of an "a" indefinitive article.

True. You should have stopped there.

> Challenge with English is there are over eighteen-thousand grammar
> rules, many of which conflict with other rules. My habit is to lean
> towards the "sense" of a sentence.

... and ignore any sort of sensible grammatical analysis.

> Context, of course, can have

DOES have

> a significant effect upon how we view or sense a sentence. Oft best
> to stick with the obvious and most simple; intransitive, transitive.
> Either a verb does not act upon something, intransitive, or does act
> upon something, transitive. Beyond those two cases lies confusion
> and very often, heated debate.

But that's no excuse for adding to the confusion.  Better to keep
silent and be thought a fool ...

[ ... ]

> When working with understanding English grammar rules, work towards
> finding the obvious, first, then venture into the vague.

... and for heaven's sake ignore Purl Gurl.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Mr. Cleanup

Purl Gurl - 06 Jan 2007 23:26 GMT
>>cannot be a linking verb because "run" does not "sense" anything, such
>>as taste, smell, feel and other "six senses" verbs which are, typically,
>>linking verbs. I would label this case intransitive and stop there.

> This is too confused for a sensible answer.

Your honor! You are flaunting your ignorance of English
language usage. Use of our human physical senses to instruct
about linking verbs is one of the most basic language lessons
taught during elementary level schooling.

To see, to hear, to smell, to taste, to feel and, of course,
our most critical sixth sense, to think. Those are linking
verbs and we teachers use our, plural, bodies to instruct
about those linking verbs. What an easy lesson! If you sense
something, you are sensing a linking verb.

I am baffled by your persistent hostility towards others, especially
your linking your hostility with your ignorance.

What I present is a basic elementary school lesson taught to
literally millions of children. Off hand, I would comment you
were born a cranky old balding man who never enjoyed the innocence
and tribulations of childhood.

Your smug arrogance makes a fool of you no matter how much
you shout down others. This is not your Queen's court of law.
This is the court of public opinion and you do not argue well
your case.

Taha
Robert Lieblich - 06 Jan 2007 23:50 GMT
> >>cannot be a linking verb because "run" does not "sense" anything, such
> >>as taste, smell, feel and other "six senses" verbs which are, typically,
> >>linking verbs. I would label this case intransitive and stop there.
>
> > This is too confused for a sensible answer.

[ ... ]

> I am baffled by your persistent hostility towards others, especially
> your linking your hostility with your ignorance.

I am not hostile toward you, Kiralynne.  I am hostile to the ignorance
you put forth as if it represents a useful description of the
functioning of the English language.  As I told you before you posted
your most recent fantasy on a theme of grammar, you're a lot of fun as
long as you stay off-topic in this group.  As for whether you are
ignorant or I am, it's obviously a mug's game to argue that with you.
Our conflicting views on English grammar and usage are there for
anyone crazy enough to want to compare them.

> What I present is a basic elementary school lesson taught to
> literally millions of children.

No, Ms. S.. what you present is a funhouse-mirror reflection of basic
English syntax.  My mission, which I have decided to accept, is to
correct your errors lest the innocent be deceived.

> Off hand, I would comment you
> were born a cranky old balding man who never enjoyed the innocence
> and tribulations of childhood.

It's kinda hard not to pass through childhood.  Is your point that I
didn't *enjoy* it?  If so, you're quite wrong.  My childhood had the
same mixture of pleasure and pain that most childhoods have.  I was,
of course, quite precocious, but I survived the consequences
relatively unscathed.  As for "balding," I am quite proud of my mane
of snowy hair, envied by many men quite younger than I.  A
not-too-ancient picture of me, mane included, can be found at
<http://alt-usage-english.org/AUE_gallery/robert_lieblich.html>.

> Your smug arrogance makes a fool of you no matter how much
> you shout down others. This is not your Queen's court of law.
> This is the court of public opinion and you do not argue well
> your case.

I'll discuss grammar and usage as necessary, and I'll happily
participate in good-natured badinage, but I'm not going to exchange
this sort of crap with you.  And speaking of English usage, consider
this:
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=projection>,
def. 6b.

Ready to go back to good-natured badinage?

Signature

Bob (Hirsute) Lieblich

Purl Gurl - 07 Jan 2007 00:11 GMT
>>What I present is a basic elementary school lesson taught to
>>literally millions of children.

> No, Ms. S.. what you present is a funhouse-mirror reflection of basic
> English syntax.  My mission, which I have decided to accept, is to
> correct your errors lest the innocent be deceived.

A man on a mission! A savior, a one man protectorate, a hero,
a word Rambo, the ultimate messiah promulgating the Good Word!
The World According To Robby!

Best gather yourself a formidable army of Red Coats armed with
Webster's dictionaries, thesauruses and, and, ah shoot, what
is the name of the grammar geek back around the turn of the
century whose book has been out of print for a century? You
know, the boy you always cite as ultimate authority, last
printed 1909 and 1921, if my memory fails me.

Well, so, gather your army of grammar Red Coats because this
heathen Indian is a habitué of Samuel Clemens! You will be
a very busy boy policing my rebellious American articles.

Such a blessing for our innocent out there to enjoy the
protection of an English barrister on a mission.

* giggles *

Taha
Robert Lieblich - 07 Jan 2007 00:20 GMT
> >>What I present is a basic elementary school lesson taught to
> >>literally millions of children.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> a word Rambo, the ultimate messiah promulgating the Good Word!
> The World According To Robby!

As I said on another thread, PG, you have no sense of irony.  You only
think you do.  And as long as contiue to slather it on, nothing will
change.

[ ... ]

Signature

Bob (Irony Personified) Lieblich

Martin Ambuhl - 06 Jan 2007 22:01 GMT
> Hi,
>
> studying some other languages, I notice that in many languages, the
> "dictionary" form (ie, the form found in a dictionary) of the verb is
> the infinitive.  Whereas, in English, the dictionary form is the
> infinite minus the particle "to".  My question is, what is this called?

It is called the infinitive.  You have it backwards.  In 'to sit', the
particle 'to' is added to the infinitive 'sit'.  It is not true that
'sit' is the result of removing 'to' from a putative longer infinitive.

Note that many bilingual dictionaries will list the first person
singular present form rather than the infinitive.  You will find many
Latin-English dictionaries, for example, that have 'tempero' or 'sum' as
 headwords and many others that 'temperare' or 'esse'.  As it happens,
for most English words these are the same form, with rare exceptions
like 'am' and 'be'.
Snis Pilbor - 07 Jan 2007 00:03 GMT
> > Hi,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> for most English words these are the same form, with rare exceptions
> like 'am' and 'be'.

Ahh, this is extremely illuminating.  I guess my confusion is because
very often, "vocabulary sets" will look like this:

comer = to eat
poder = to be able (to)
poner = to put
ir = to go, etc.

The LHS of the table is a list of infinitives, thus the natural
(wrong?) conclusion is that the RHS is as well.  When, I guess, what is
really going on is that it isn't a *verb* difference between the
languages, but a *grammar* difference:  English requires the "to"
particle where many, many languages do not.  As evidenced by Spanish
"puedo ir" vs. English "I'm able to go".  Or Esperanto "mi volas sidi"
vs. English "I want to sit".

In my own defense, I think it's a mistake with which Spanish teachers
everywhere are afflicted, and which they generously transmit to their
students   =)
Robert Lieblich - 07 Jan 2007 00:17 GMT
[ ... ]

> Ahh, this is extremely illuminating.  I guess my confusion is because
> very often, "vocabulary sets" will look like this:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> everywhere are afflicted, and which they generously transmit to their
> students   =)

It's a mistake with which most native speakers of English who teach
the language are also afflicted -- as are most native speakers who
don't teach it.  There is a vast amount of misinformation about
English in circulation.  If you have the patience for a good
discussion of but one example, you might want to consult this recent
posting at the blog Language Log:
<http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003984.html#more>.
The situation isn't helped when the likes of Purl Gurl come along and
spout gibberish in response to sincere inquiries, but that's a
relatively minor problem in comparison and pretty much limited to this
newsgroup.

I'm only an amateur (as is true of most AUE participants), but I'd
like to think I have some minimal grasp of how the English language
actually works -- at least enough to discuss the relationship between
the particle "to" and the bare infinitive.  I suspect, however, that
if you asked a random sample of 100 adult native speakers of English
what the infinitive form of "eat" is, those who did not plead complete
ignrance (probably about half) would almost unanimously respond "to
eat."  Asked what "to" is in "to eat," most of those who could answer
at all would say it is a preposition.  I suppose a decent argument
could develop over the correctness of those views (I'm trying not to
trigger one), but the interesting thing to me is that even if you
treat these views as acceptable, almost no one is aware of the
analysis that most linguists and professional grammarians have
adopted, which is quite different.

This group is a useful place for discussion of issues such as these,
but be wary of accepting as gospel anything you hear from anyone -- me
included.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
With lots to be humble about

Cece - 11 Jan 2007 21:05 GMT
Snis Pilbor ha escrito:

> > > Hi,
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> everywhere are afflicted, and which they generously transmit to their
> students   =)

"Puedo ir" may be translated "I can go."  More likely then "I'm able to
go," depending on context and fine shadings of meaning.

"I want to sit down" sounds better than "I want to sit."

Can/could, may/might, will/would -- are strange things in English; none
has an actual infinitive form, only the two I've given, and people can
argue forever over their exact meaning and use.

Cece
 
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