 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Happy Prince
Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: High above the city, on a tall column, stood the statue of the Happy Prince. He was gilded all over with thin leaves of fine gold, for eyes he had two bright sapphires, and a large red ruby glowed on his sword-hilt. There are several Japanese translations of _The Happy Prince_, and most (all?) of them interpret the "leaves" part as "metal, especially gold or silver, in the form of very thin sheets" (from the definition of the Oxford Dictionary). But recently I read somewhere that "leaf" in that sense is used as an uncountable noun so the "leaves" there should be interpreted that the prince was covered with a lot of leaf-shaped fine gold. Is this the statue of the Happy Prince you visualize when you read the sentence above?  SignatureNobuko Iwasaki (remove the second forte for e-mail) > Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Nobuko Iwasaki > (remove the second forte for e-mail) It is the thinness of the metal that makes it a "leaf", not the shape. He could be covered in "gold leaf", which might be one leaf or many leaves, but if he is covered in "thin leaves of fine gold" there is nothing to be surmised about their shape. "The Happy Prince" is an excellent story - have you read "The Importance of Being Earnest"? "Troy Steadman" wrote in message... > > Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > leaves, but if he is covered in "thin leaves of fine gold" there is > nothing to be surmised about their shape. "Leaf" in that sense is used as an uncountable noun, isn't it? Or is it okay to use it like "leaves" in that context? > "The Happy Prince" is an excellent story - have you read "The > Importance of Being Earnest"? No, I haven't. Is it also an excellent story? SignatureNobuko Iwasaki Nobuko Iwasaki and Troy Steadman write: >>> Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: >>> >>> High above the city, on a tall column, >>> stood the statue of the Happy Prince. >>> He was gilded all over with thin leaves of fine gold ... >>> There are several Japanese translations of _The Happy >>> Prince_, and most (all?) of them interpret the >>> "leaves" part as "metal, especially gold or silver, >>> in the form of very thin sheets" (from the definition >>> of the Oxford Dictionary). But recently I read somewhere >>> that "leaf" in that sense is used as an uncountable noun ... >> It is the thinness of the metal that makes it a "leaf", not the shape. >> He could be covered in "gold leaf", which might be one leaf or many >> leaves, but if he is covered in "thin leaves of fine gold" there is >> nothing to be surmised about their shape. > "Leaf" in that sense is used as an uncountable noun, isn't it? It usually is, but I think it makes sense to say "a gold leaf" for an individual piece of gold leaf, making it a count noun. See in this page <http://www.physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Curie/1927.html> where the writer says "A gold leaf is suspended". Side comment: "the Oxford Dictionary" is not an adequate way to identify a dictionary. You need to give the full title or one of the abbreviations that we use in this newsgroup. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "One thing that surprises you about this business msb@vex.net | is the surprises." -- Tim Baker My text in this article is in the public domain. "Mark Brader" wrote in message... > Nobuko Iwasaki and Troy Steadman write: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > this page <http://www.physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Curie/1927.html> > where the writer says "A gold leaf is suspended". Ah, yes, "A gold leaf is suspended near the center of the chamber.." Thank you for the site. > Side comment: "the Oxford Dictionary" is not an adequate way to > identify a dictionary. You need to give the full title or one of > the abbreviations that we use in this newsgroup. I see. Thanks for the comment. My portable electronic dictionary has several Oxford dictionaries and I didn't pay much attention from which dictionary the definition I got came -- it was from Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. SignatureNobuko Iwasaki > "Troy Steadman" wrote in message... > > > Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > No, I haven't. Is it also an excellent story? It is a play and is very well known and very English and very funny. All the rest of Oscar Wilde's stuff (someone will no doubt prove me wrong) is poor. >> "Troy Steadman" wrote in message... >> > "The Happy Prince" is an excellent story - have you read "The >> > Importance of Being Earnest"? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >All the rest of Oscar Wilde's stuff (someone will no doubt prove me >wrong) is poor. A hyeauadbuhaaeuag? Hilarious, innit. SignatureArchie Valparaiso > >> "Troy Steadman" wrote in message... > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Hilarious, innit. Yes it is... ALGERNON The doctors found out that Bunbury could not live...so Bunbury died. LADY BRACKNELL He seems to have had great confidence in the opinion of his physicians. I am glad, however, that he made up his mind at the last to some definite course of action, and acted under proper medical advice. You probably have to be English to geddit, like "Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me". :) >>"Troy Steadman" wrote in message... >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > All the rest of Oscar Wilde's stuff (someone will no doubt prove me > wrong) is poor. Depends what you mean by "very funny" and "poor". I probably don't share your views - the handbag leaves me cold and I find some parts of the Ballad of Reading Gaol and De Profundis quite moving. And when I was twelve I found the Picture of Dorian Gray satisfyingly scary, although I probably didn't understand it. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > And when I was > twelve I found the Picture of Dorian Gray satisfyingly scary, although I > probably didn't understand it. What a great epistemological puzzle that last clause is. Do you mean that you no longer recall whether you understood it? Or is if that you thought you had an understanding of it at the time but no longer know whether that understanding was right? Or is it that you still recall the understanding and still aren't sure whether it's right? Or ... I read Dorian Gray right around the same age as you did, Laura. My parents had an illustrated version, and the frontispiece was the young Dorian confronting his aged doppelganger in the mirror. It sucked me right in. I followed the story on the surface but missed most of the innuendo, so I guess I probably didn't understand it. SignatureBob Lieblich Who probably doesn't understand this post, either >>And when I was >>twelve I found the Picture of Dorian Gray satisfyingly scary, although I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > recall the understanding and still aren't sure whether it's right? Or > ... Ah. Now I have to think what I meant when I wrote that. As a youngster, I read voraciously and indiscriminately. We visited the public library every week and I was allowed the run of the adult section with very little supervision, although I remember causing a bit of a stir when, at the age of eight, I asked my father what pornography meant - he discovered that I was reading Dennis Wheatley. So I read a great many books in which the plots and characters may have gripped my imagination but much of the context was far beyond my understanding. Rereading them as an adult is sometimes a bit risky as an appreciation of the nuances or the discovery of patches of bad writing can spoil the memory of being completely lost in the story. My reading at that age would still have been very superficial and I'm sure that I knew nothing about Wilde. I wouldn't have picked up on the underlying implications of Gray's hedonism, for example. I think that "I probably didn't understand it" could have been replaced by "I won't have understood it" which, to me, implies that I might have thought I did but, with hindsight, clearly couldn't have done. Which is obviously different from the categoric "I didn't understand it", because I don't remember being conscious of a lack of understanding at the time of reading it. There's nothing like starting a dark, wet, windy January morning with an epistemological work out, is there? > I read Dorian Gray right around the same age as you did, Laura. My > parents had an illustrated version, and the frontispiece was the young > Dorian confronting his aged doppelganger in the mirror. It sucked me > right in. I followed the story on the surface but missed most of the > innuendo, so I guess I probably didn't understand it. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>And when I was >>>twelve I found the Picture of Dorian Gray satisfyingly scary, although I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >stir when, at the age of eight, I asked my father what pornography meant >- he discovered that I was reading Dennis Wheatley. I greatly impressed my elders when they caught me reading the first few pages of *Where Angels Fear to Tread* when I was about ten. I had been attracted by the title -- expecting demons and monsters, as you do -- and was so sorely disappointed that I've never been able to bring myself to read another word of Forster to this day. SignatureArchie Valparaiso > I greatly impressed my elders when they caught me reading the first > few pages of *Where Angels Fear to Tread* when I was about ten. I had > been attracted by the title -- expecting demons and monsters, as you > do -- and was so sorely disappointed that I've never been able to > bring myself to read another word of Forster to this day. I remember the first book that I ever borrowed from the library in Pinxton. It was called "The Green Poodles"[1]. I was very disappointed to find that it was about a family called Green who owned poodles. All this library talk has brought on nostalgic memories. Our local library was situated above a pub, so my early memories of choosing books can be recalled by the smell of stale beer. My brother and I would spend hours picking our books; in fact, my brother frequently read at least one book while waiting for me to choose my books. We borrowed a great many books. We were only allowed two each as children, but the librarian (a neighbour of ours) issued four tickets to each of our parents, and we were able to take out books on those tickets too. We would usually bring home a Western for my Dad as cover. I can still remember the first dirty book I read. It was one that my brother had borrowed, and I overheard him sniggering over it with his friend, so I read it too. It was called "Rib of the Hawk"[2], and was an entertaining story, and I recall one slightly racy episode, but it was pretty mild. And I remember a book called "The Wonderful Child", about a child found wandering after an air raid, and brought up by the Air Raid Warden who found her. I thought it was the best story ever, when I was about twelve. Somehow the library was never the same after it was moved from the room over the pub to the old senior school. Fran [1] The Green Poodles by Charlotte Baker [2] by Rosamond Marshall, it seems. Available from Amazon Marketplace to anyone who wants to know what I though racy when I was 11, for only $2.79. [a scariness of epistemologies] >> As a youngster, I read voraciously and indiscriminately. We >> visited the public library every week and I was allowed the run of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > as you do -- and was so sorely disappointed that I've never been > able to bring myself to read another word of Forster to this day. Imagine my disappointment when I had puzzled through to the end of _Ghosts_. Still like Ibsen, though. > As a youngster, I read voraciously and indiscriminately. We visited > the public library every week and I was allowed the run of the adult > section with very little supervision, although I remember causing a > bit of a stir when, at the age of eight, I asked my father what > pornography meant - he discovered that I was reading Dennis Wheatley. There wasn't a library in our town, so the books I read either came to me as gifts - the usual children's fare - or from my mother's bookcase. (This all changed at age 13, when I moved to a school that had a real library and I started pushing the limits of the borrowing rules.) When I asked my mother for something to read, she'd go through her shelves making comments like "No, that one's too old for you" and "That's not really suitable" until finally finding something that she recommended. I'd take note of the "unsuitable" ones and later borrow them when she wasn't looking. I recall reading "Lady Chatterley's Lover" at a time when it was really controversial, and wondering what all the fuss was about. Anyway, that's beside the point. I became quite a fan of Dennis Wheatley after reading books like "The Satanist" and "The Haunting of Toby Jugg". Later, as an adult, I read some more of his books and was greatly disappointed. Terror is great stuff for a child, but not frightening enough for an adult. With the frisson of fear removed, he wasn't as great an author as I had remembered. > So I read a great many books in which the plots and characters may > have gripped my imagination but much of the context was far beyond my > understanding. Rereading them as an adult is sometimes a bit risky > as an appreciation of the nuances or the discovery of patches of bad > writing can spoil the memory of being completely lost in the story. The stories of Gulliver's travels is an excellent case in point. I re-read these as an adult, and discovered that they were full of thinly-disguised commentary on contemporary society and politics. Indeed, I imagine that that was his point when writing the books. It seemed to me, however, that the extra understanding didn't add much to my reading pleasure. The stories were much more interesting when I read them as adventure stories for children. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. [...] > The stories of Gulliver's travels is an excellent case in point. I > re-read these as an adult, and discovered that they were full of > thinly-disguised commentary on contemporary society and politics. > Indeed, I imagine that that was his point when writing the books. Your use of "contemporary" with its traditional meaning (some would say its only correct meaning) brings to mind that the word has probably come to mean "modern" in so many people's minds that "contemporary" may be close to being skunked. I wonder how many readers, on reading your remarks, wondered how Swift's writing could have been contemporary while it was written in the 18th century. >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >how Swift's writing could have been contemporary while it >was written in the 18th century. I agree, especially with such everyday expressions as "contemporary art". Many editors, however, probably feel that since "of the day" is several characters and syllables shorter than "contemporary", it's no great loss. SignatureArchie Valparaiso >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >how Swift's writing could have been contemporary while it >was written in the 18th century. The ambiguity comes in if you don't make it clear whether you mean contemporary with the writer or contemporary with the reader. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > how Swift's writing could have been contemporary while it > was written in the 18th century. Do people really think it means "modern"? That wouldn't have occurred to me. I must be getting old. SignatureRob Bannister >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Do people really think it means "modern"? That wouldn't have occurred to >me. I must be getting old. Yes - in these hyar parts, it seems that "a contemporary house" or "contemporary furniture" means a modern design, and is as opposed to "traditional". Announcing that Caesar and Brutus were contemporaries might elicit a raised eyebrow from at least some of the people I know. Jitze > > [...] > >>The stories of Gulliver's travels is an excellent case in point. I > >>re-read these as an adult, and discovered that they were full of > >>thinly-disguised commentary on contemporary society and politics. > >>Indeed, I imagine that that was his point when writing the books. > > Your use of "contemporary" with its traditional meaning > > (some would say its only correct meaning) brings to mind > > that the word has probably come to mean "modern" in so many > > people's minds that "contemporary" may be close to being > > skunked. > > I wonder how many readers, on reading your remarks, wondered > > how Swift's writing could have been contemporary while it > > was written in the 18th century. > Do people really think it means "modern"? That wouldn't have occurred to > me. I must be getting old. Even lexicographers have had to recognize that that meaning is in use. For example, definition 4 of "contemporary" in the_New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_ is 4 Modern or ultra-modern in style or design. M19. And _Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate actually says "modern" and "current" can be synonyms of "contemporary": 2 [...] b : marked by characteristics of the present period : MODERN, CURRENT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > probably come to mean "modern" in so many people's minds that > "contemporary" may be close to being skunked. But dahling, post-modern is SO passé, don'cha know? My theory is that the word "modern" became skunked, at least for some people, once the term "post-modern" had been introduced into the language. As a result, a new word was needed to mean what "modern" used to mean. Well, there was "contemporary" sitting around, not being used except by those who knew what it meant, so it was appropriated for the job. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Pre-future >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > except by those who knew what it meant, so it was appropriated for the > job. Nice theory, but have we not had contempory art, music, architecture, etc. long before post-modernism came down the cultural pike? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> But dahling, post-modern is SO passé, don'cha know? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Nice theory, but have we not had contempory art, music, architecture, > etc. long before post-modernism came down the cultural pike? Never let facts get in the way of a good theory. (I'm not sure what made me say that. It was either the return of Piddy or the cross-postings from sci.lang.) SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. >>> But dahling, post-modern is SO passé, don'cha know? >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > (I'm not sure what made me say that. It was either the return of Piddy > or the cross-postings from sci.lang.) A theory that can't withstand facts that contradict it isn't much of a theory. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Anyway, that's beside the point. I became quite a fan of Dennis Wheatley > after reading books like "The Satanist" and "The Haunting of Toby Jugg". > Later, as an adult, I read some more of his books and was greatly > disappointed. Terror is great stuff for a child, but not frightening > enough for an adult. With the frisson of fear removed, he wasn't as > great an author as I had remembered. At my grandmother's house, there was a large, black book of "mystery" stories. About two thirds of the way through, there was a sealed section of read-on-if-you-dare stories. I have no idea who the book belonged to - my grandparents certainly didn't read for pleasure, and this section of the book was still sealed. Naturally, the kitchen knife put short work to that, and I had a lot of nightmares. Later, re-reading the book as an adult, I couldn't for the life of me, work out what had frightened me so much. The only "known" work I remember was Poe's "Berenice", but the scariest one was about a ship wrecked near an island covered in a fungus, which slowly consumed the crew. Their voices could sometimes be heard in the tree-like fungus forest. SignatureRob Bannister >> Anyway, that's beside the point. I became quite a fan of Dennis Wheatley >> after reading books like "The Satanist" and "The Haunting of Toby Jugg". [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > wrecked near an island covered in a fungus, which slowly consumed the > crew. Their voices could sometimes be heard in the tree-like fungus forest. We also had a big book of mystery stories - not with a sealed section, though - which contained things like "The Monkey's Paw" which I found very chilling. The scariest book I've read recently is "The Victorian Chaise Longue" by Marghanita Laski. It was even scarier because I wasn't expecting it to be, IYSWIM. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > We also had a big book of mystery stories - not with a sealed section, > though - which contained things like "The Monkey's Paw" which I found > very chilling. I remember having nightmares after reading books of ghost stories that my brother borrowed from the library. "Oh, Whistle and I'll come to" was one that I recall. > The scariest book I've read recently is "The Victorian Chaise Longue" by > Marghanita Laski. It was even scarier because I wasn't expecting it to > be, IYSWIM. I read "The Historian" by Elizabeth Kostova last year, and had to stop reading it after dark, as the opening chapters scared me so much. I went around the house checking that I had locked the doors (not that that would have helped). Fran >> We also had a big book of mystery stories - not with a sealed >> section, though - which contained things like "The Monkey's Paw" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that my brother borrowed from the library. "Oh, Whistle and I'll > come to" was one that I recall. "Oh, Whistle and I'll Come to You, My Lad", M. R. James. I read his collected ghost stories at the age of twelve, and wouldn't go into a room without turning on the light for weeks afterwards. The vignettes, like the one about a guest in a strange house who carefully and laboriously locks herself into her bedroom and then hears "a thin voice among the bedcurtains say, 'Now we're shut in for the night...'" were as horrible as the longer stories. >> The scariest book I've read recently is "The Victorian Chaise >> Longue" by Marghanita Laski. It was even scarier because I wasn't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > much. I went around the house checking that I had locked the doors > (not that that would have helped). Quarry for the next library visit. >>>We also had a big book of mystery stories - not with a sealed >>>section, though - which contained things like "The Monkey's Paw" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > voice among the bedcurtains say, 'Now we're shut in for the night...'" > were as horrible as the longer stories. Thanks a lot. Now I won't be able to sleep tonight. I think that this kind of thing is why I dislike short stories now. Fran >>>> We also had a big book of mystery stories - not with a sealed >>>> section, though - which contained things like "The Monkey's Paw" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I think that this kind of thing is why I dislike short stories now. Oops, sorry. Having recovered from that syndrome, I sometimes don't consider that others may still be afflicted. Do you meditate at all? Even breathing slowly and imagining the Buddhist "clear light" shining out of everything around you ought to provide some relief. (Just don't think of the Tractate Middoth.) >>>>We also had a big book of mystery stories - not with a sealed >>>>section, though - which contained things like "The Monkey's Paw" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >I think that this kind of thing is why I dislike short stories now. Like Charles, I also read M R James' "Ghost Stories of an Antiquary" when I was 12 or 13, and I still get a frisson when I read them. I also had the horrors after hearing a BBC radio presentation of "The Beast With Five Fingers" round about the same age. Fran can read "Oh Whistle..." and my favourite "Count Magnus" (and a few others) here: http://www.fadl12200.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mrjframes.html SignatureRobin Herts, England On 11 Jan 2007, Robin Bignall wrote > Like Charles, I also read M R James' "Ghost Stories of an > Antiquary" when I was 12 or 13, and I still get a frisson when I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Magnus" (and a few others) here: > http://www.fadl12200.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mrjframes.html It's interesting to hear what lines or images reliably tingle the spine for people, whether literary or shlocky movies. Some really cheesy ones have been long-lasting for me: the matter- of-fact tone of "it's back" in the TV movie of Stephen King's "it"; then there was a scene in some movie -- big budget, but I've entirely forgotten which one -- where a ghost character sees his sh.t of a colleague arrive on the other side and get surrounded by the shades of hell; the last line of "The Nine Billion Names of God". They're all, of course, cheap tricks -- but that's not really relevant to their impact. (Coward, cheap music, and extraordinary potency springs to mind.) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 11 Jan 2007, Robin Bignall wrote > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>Magnus" (and a few others) here: >>http://www.fadl12200.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mrjframes.html Thanks for that link. I should have printed it out: I find it very difficult to read long texts on-screen, so it wasn't as scary as it might have been. I found it interesting that the author used "lighted a match" rather than the now-normal "lit". I don't think Matthew ought to read this one with all its anti-papist references. SignatureRob Bannister HVS filted: >It's interesting to hear what lines or images reliably tingle the >spine for people, whether literary or shlocky movies. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >relevant to their impact. (Coward, cheap music, and extraordinary >potency springs to mind.) I've got a few weird ones...two lines in the novel "The Andromeda Strain" can still set off literal goosebumps if I'm not prepared for them (the question "what happens when the baby stops crying?" and one character's transfer of the concept of minimum and maximum speed limits to blood pH)...and for a while, the line "some people say I've done all right for a girl" in "Brand New Key" had much the same effect.... The only thing in movies that I can recall doing that (and the only one of these examples actually *intended* to cause the effect) was Angus Scrimm at the end of "Phantasm" simply saying "boy!"...r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Some really cheesy ones have been long-lasting for me: the matter- >of-fact tone of "it's back" in the TV movie of Stephen King's "it"; >then there was a scene in some movie -- big budget, but I've entirely >forgotten which one -- where a ghost character sees his sh.t of a >colleague arrive on the other side and get surrounded by the shades >of hell; the last line of "The Nine Billion Names of God". I can only remember being frightened by two movies: _Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein_ and _The Creature From The Black Lagoon_. I was very young when I watched A&C, and wearing 3-D glasses when I watched the second. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >then there was a scene in some movie -- big budget, but I've entirely >forgotten which one -- where a ghost character sees his sh.t of a >colleague arrive on the other side and get surrounded by the shades >of hell; I'm going to take a wild stab and say this was _Ghost_. SignatureDavid Goldfarb |"Get your mind out of the gutter -- you're blocking goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu | my snorkel." goldfarb@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Frank Ney, on rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated On 12 Jan 2007, David Goldfarb wrote >> then there was a scene in some movie -- big budget, but I've >> entirely forgotten which one -- where a ghost character sees >> his sh.t of a colleague arrive on the other side and get >> surrounded by the shades of hell; > > I'm going to take a wild stab and say this was _Ghost_. That sounds likely; as members of the monthly quiz team I sit with will attest, recalling movie titles isn't my....er...strong point. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > I read "The Historian" by Elizabeth Kostova last year, and had to stop > reading it after dark, as the opening chapters scared me so much. I went > around the house checking that I had locked the doors (not that that > would have helped). There was a time (maybe late 60s) when the BBC used to put on a horror film fairly late on a Monday night. We were 4 boys, middle to late 20s, not scared of anything, and we would sit through these films chortling away. The funny part, though, was that when the film was over, the same fearless foursome could be observed turning on every light in the flat and whistling quite loudly. SignatureRob Bannister >>> Anyway, that's beside the point. I became quite a fan of Dennis >>> Wheatley after reading books like "The Satanist" and "The Haunting [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > though - which contained things like "The Monkey's Paw" which I found > very chilling. Yes, we had one of those. Damned thick black book. I read it in my early teens. Some of the stories were laughable and some gave me the heeby jeebies for years to come. I remember one of the best stories was Bram Stoker's "The Squaw" which I see is on-line as part of a collection here: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10150/10150-8.txt Interesting depiction of an American accent. It was the last two lines that particularly got to me. There was another story which was something to do with men on a polar expedition who were confined to their cabin. There were nine of them, but every time the narrator tried to count them (all doing different things - cooking, eating, lying on their bunks, playing cards etc) he made it ten and couldn't work out which was the extra. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > There was another story which was something to do with men on a polar > expedition who were confined to their cabin. There were nine of > them, but every time the narrator tried to count them (all doing > different things - cooking, eating, lying on their bunks, playing > cards etc) he made it ten and couldn't work out which was the extra. A short story that was part of our compulsory school reading - and now I regret that I remember neither the title nor the author - was about someone who claimed to be able to make someone disappear so completely that there would be no evidence, not even a memory, that they had ever existed. He was challenged to demonstrate this. He resisted initially, but eventually gave in. At the end, after the lights had come up, everyone agreed that he had given them a good scare and that it was an excellent joke. It was only on about my third reading of this story that I realised that someone was missing. Although I enjoy stories like that, they don't really scare me. There have been other books that have disturbed me so deeply that I had trouble finishing them. Some that I now recall are _La Nausée_ by JP Sartre; _Wake in Fright_ by, I think, Peter Cook; _Dhalgren_ (spelling?) by Samuel Delaney; and "The Tin Drum", by Günter Grass. That last one was compulsory reading in one of my undergraduate subjects, so it was made all the more painful by the existence of a deadline. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. >_Dhalgren_ (spelling?) by Samuel Delaney You got "Dhalgren" right but "Delany" wrong. SignatureDavid Goldfarb |"I came to Casablanca for the waters." goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu | "The waters? What waters? We're in the desert." goldfarb@csua.berkeley.edu |"I was misinformed." > A short story that was part of our compulsory school reading - and now I > regret that I remember neither the title nor the author - was about [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It was only on about my third reading of this story that I realised that > someone was missing. That's one that stuck in my mind too. Group of travellers spending a night at an inn, trying to amuse themselves, or something similar. By O Henry, I think, but what was the title? SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au [...] >The stories of Gulliver's travels is an excellent case in point. I >re-read these as an adult, and discovered that they were full of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >my reading pleasure. The stories were much more interesting when I read >them as adventure stories for children. Differently interesting perhaps. A lot of the satire is still relevant: for example, the pettiness of politics will always be with us and the bizarre obsessions of geeks is also good value today, and not just in usenet (you'd know that, of course, having worked in a university). SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >> And when I was >> twelve I found the Picture of Dorian Gray satisfyingly scary, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > right in. I followed the story on the surface but missed most of the > innuendo, so I guess I probably didn't understand it. What a great epistemological puzzle that last clause is. Do you mean that you no longer recall whether you understood it? Or is if that you thought you had an understanding of it at the time but no longer know whether that understanding was right? Or is it that you still recall the understanding and still aren't sure whether it's right? Or ... SignatureJohn Dean Oxford [ ... ] > What a great epistemological puzzle that last clause is. Do you mean > that you no longer recall whether you understood it? Or is if that > you thought you had an understanding of it at the time but no longer > know whether that understanding was right? Or is it that you still > recall the understanding and still aren't sure whether it's right? Or > ... Easy for you to say. SignatureBob Lieblich Who did the heavy lifting "Troy Steadman" wrote in message... > > "Troy Steadman" wrote in message... > > > > Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > All the rest of Oscar Wilde's stuff (someone will no doubt prove me > wrong) is poor. Thanks. I'll look for it. I read _Salome_ and _The Picture of Dorian Gray_ when I was a student (_The Happy Prince_ when I was a child), and I liked them both, especially _Salome_, with those beautiful pictures by Beardsley. Thank you all who answered my questions. SignatureNobuko Iwasaki >> "Troy Steadman" wrote in message... >>> "The Happy Prince" is an excellent story - have you read "The >>> Importance of Being Earnest"? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > All the rest of Oscar Wilde's stuff (someone will no doubt prove me > wrong) is poor. I'm going to stick my neck out here and disagree with the "very funny" part. "Earnest" was, for me, always in the category of "funny by the standards of its time". It's well-written and witty, I won't deny that, but so dated that it's hard to resist the urge to attack it with a dustcloth. In other words, I don't think it's aged well. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > I'm going to stick my neck out here and disagree with the "very funny" > part. "Earnest" was, for me, always in the category of "funny by the > standards of its time". It's well-written and witty, I won't deny that, > but so dated that it's hard to resist the urge to attack it with a > dustcloth. In other words, I don't think it's aged well. Diff'rent strokes and all that. I think it's hilarious, and wrote my senior thesis in high school on it. I'm curious as to what you think is dated about it-- the humor is mostly satire, which is best when it's topical, I'll grant, but there's plenty of wordplay, which doesn't really age at all. Even the satire wears well, to me, as someone who is curious and interested about Victorian times, as opposed to what we think they ought to be. It might be instructive to contrast Wilde's satire of Victorianism, for instance, with Neal Stephenson's (muted) praise of it in _The Diamond Age_. I wish the latter were out when I were in high school-- I might well have given my teacher apoplexy by choosing to write about Oscar Wilde and science fiction in the same thesis. -=Eric > Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: > > He was gilded all over with thin leaves of fine gold, When items such as statues, picture frames, furniture, etc, are 'gilded', they are covered by a craftsperson with a thin layer of gold leaf in such a way that the item might appear to be made of gold. This impression would vanish if an attempt were made to pick up the object. All of the artist's impressions of the Happy Prince which I have seen, eg on book covers or as illustrations, show him seamlessly covered in this way. <mike.j.harvey@gmail.com> wrote in message... > > Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > eg on book covers or as illustrations, show him seamlessly covered in > this way. I also checked google's image, and the statues of Happy Prince there seemed like that. No leaves of a plant. But then, if it's seamlessly covered, why is it "thin leaves of fine gold", not "thin leaf of fine gold"? SignatureNobuko Iwasaki ><mike.j.harvey@gmail.com> wrote in message... >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >covered, why is it "thin leaves of fine gold", not "thin leaf of >fine gold"? Because the author is referring to the process by which the gold covering was applied. Wikipedia shows the process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_leaf When the process is complete the gold covering appears seamless because the edges of the leaves are not visible. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) The iwasaki entity posted thusly: ><mike.j.harvey@gmail.com> wrote in message... >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >covered, why is it "thin leaves of fine gold", not "thin leaf of >fine gold"? "Thin leaf of fine gold" would not be idiomatic, and probably not well understood by most readers. "Thin leaves of fine gold" tells us that the statue was gilded by a process of applying gold in the form of thin leaves. Other idiomatic ways of saying the same thing are "gilded", or "covered with fine gold leaf". >The iwasaki entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >Other idiomatic ways of saying the same thing are "gilded", or >"covered with fine gold leaf". Doesn't the "fine" in our Oscar's "gilded [...] with leaves of fine gold" mean the gold was pure rather than the leaves were thin? After all, gold leaf is thin by definition. SignatureArchie Valparaiso > >The iwasaki entity posted thusly: > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > gold" mean the gold was pure rather than the leaves were thin? After > all, gold leaf is thin by definition. Wilde's "thin leaves of fine gold" is doubly redundant, because gold leaf can be made from only the finest gold, so by definition it is both fine and thin. However, I think that his description has more euphony than the merely accurate "leaves of gold" would have. -- [...] > Wilde's "thin leaves of fine gold" is doubly redundant, > because gold leaf can be made from only the finest gold, > so by definition it is both fine and thin. However, > I think that his description has more euphony than > the merely accurate "leaves of gold" would have. > -- It's over ten years since I last gilded anything, but are you sure that gold leaf is only made from the finest gold? I recall silver leaf, copper leaf and aluminium (AmE "aluminum") leaf, so why not 9ct gold leaf? Will. On 12 Jan 2007, Will wrote > [...] >> Wilde's "thin leaves of fine gold" is doubly redundant, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > silver leaf, copper leaf and aluminium (AmE "aluminum") leaf, so > why not 9ct gold leaf? Indeed. This site -- http://www.noris-blattgold.de/English/products/goldleaf.html lists leaf from 6 carats upwards (although it looks as if it only gets properly gold-coloured above 20 carats). SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van >>Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > eg on book covers or as illustrations, show him seamlessly covered in > this way. I didn't realise that. In that case, I withdraw my approval of "leaves". I had been thinking that the individual leaves were clearly visible. There's a kind of mail that is made of overlapping metal leaves, though I may be thinking of scale armour. SignatureRob Bannister >>> Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > There's a kind of mail that is made of overlapping metal leaves, though > I may be thinking of scale armour. But the story does make reference to the individual leaves: "I am covered with fine gold," said the Prince, "you must take it off, leaf by leaf, and give it to my poor; the living always think that gold can make them happy." Fran > >>> Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: > >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > leaf by leaf, and give it to my poor; the living always think that gold > can make them happy." Spot on. Euphony is probably a factor, but chiefly the author is planting the idea of separate pieces in the reader's mind. If he hadn't done so, we might have had a moment's difficulty in readjusting our mental image from the apparently seamless covering we ordinarily think of as gilding. No matter that, practically speaking, it's impossible: this is a fairy story,.after all ("What an appalling piece of whimsy!" as my dear old French master scrawled at the end of my elegant summary of the tale in French, back in nineteen-fifty-something -- why _were_ the French masters such nice blokes?). SignatureMike. pianoforteforte@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp had it: > Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: > > High above the city, on a tall column, > stood the statue of the Happy Prince. > He was gilded all over with thin leaves of fine gold, Since Oscar decided to cast the sentence in that form, "leaves" is the only possible word. Me, I would have written "gilded all over with fine gold leaf", but what do I know? As others have said a "gold leaf" is just a very very thin piece of gold. They usually come in small squares (up to about 10 cm across) between paper sheets. There is no reference to the botanical leaf, any more than there is when we refer to pages in a book. This is possibly my favourite short story. SignatureDavid ===== "the Omrud" wrote in message... > pianoforteforte@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp had it: > > Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > between paper sheets. There is no reference to the botanical leaf, > any more than there is when we refer to pages in a book. Thank you. In Japanese, the word for gold leaf (="haku") is different from the one for botanical leaf (="ha"), so there would be no confusion, but... So, if you write about a statue of the Happy Prince covered with botanical leaf shaped fine gold, how would you write? SignatureNobuko Iwasaki > So, if you write about a > statue of the Happy Prince covered with botanical leaf shaped > fine gold, how would you write? Like you just did? <mike.j.harvey@gmail.com> wrote in message... > > So, if you write about a > > statue of the Happy Prince covered with botanical leaf shaped > > fine gold, how would you write? > > Like you just did? Without a single hyphen in "botanical leaf shaped fine gold"? SignatureNobuko Iwasaki > <mike.j.harvey@gmail.com> wrote in message... > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > Nobuko Iwasaki "leaf-shaped fine gold" ..suffices. If you have one hyphen you'll need two in: "botanical-leaf-shaped fine gold" > "leaf-shaped fine gold" Perfect. > > "leaf-shaped fine gold" > > Perfect. Apart from the colour, he might look a bit like that mythological person, the Green Man. > In Japanese, the word for gold leaf (="haku") is > different from the one for botanical leaf (="ha"), so there > would be no confusion, but... So, if you write about a > statue of the Happy Prince covered with botanical leaf shaped > fine gold, how would you write? No, this adds linguistic ambiguity to a distinct technology that has been for 500+ years just the same wherever used (e.g. Japan and Europe) and is well-known to craftsmen and curators, based on the unique characteristics of gold when beaten to an ultra-thin sheet. (E.g. it adheres spontaneously to other surfaces, it does not oxidise, the junction between leaves becomes invisible after burnishing, etc.) Choice of the word LEAF to identify a piece of gold prepared for such use is common-sensical: tree leaves are characteristically thin, and preparing told requires beating it to appropriate thinness. (NB paper is also thin, for common purposes a two-dimensional structure, and books are made of paper "leaves" bound togethere. Bulk gold leaf is also sold in "books" of scores of sheets of gold.) The language used to describe gilded statutes or tree physiology or bookbinding is adequate to these common purposes. But it would not be a common purpose to describe a statue covered with "botanical leaf-shaped" material of whatever metal. The word SHAPE is here misleading. We call gold leaf LEAF because it is ultra-thin -- not because of any particular shape. (Tree leaves grow in many different shapes.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) pianoforteforte@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp had it: > "the Omrud" wrote in message... > > pianoforteforte@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp had it: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > statue of the Happy Prince covered with botanical leaf shaped > fine gold, how would you write? Leaf-shaped gold leaf - this is not in the slightest confusing as the gold or paper meaning of "leaf" doesn't have a specific shape. Or "gold leaf fashioned into the shape of oak leaves". SignatureDavid ===== > Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Is this the statue of the Happy Prince you visualize > when you read the sentence above? No, I already understand that "gilding" is done by using "leaves of fine gold", so it does not make me think of anything shaped like the leaf of a tree. What it does make me think is that Wilde wants to emphasise the process of making the statue, "with thin leaves of fine gold". If he had wanted to emphasise the finished appearance, he could have quite naturally written "with gold leaf" - but a degree of euphony might then have been lost. -- > Oscar Wilde's _The Happy Prince_ begins like this: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Is this the statue of the Happy Prince you visualize > when you read the sentence above? "Leaves" makes perfect, in fact better sense to me. SignatureRob Bannister |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.