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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Correcting this sentence
Can you please correct this sentence for me? This year I get up earlier because my first lesson starts at 8 0'clock. > Can you please correct this sentence for me? > > This year I get up earlier because my first lesson starts at 8 0'clock. Say "I am getting up earlier" (or "I have to get up earlier"). Say "8 o'clock" or "8:00", not "8 0'clock".  SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "You keep using that word. I do not think it means msb@vex.net | what you think it means." -- The Princess Bride > > Can you please correct this sentence for me? > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Say "8 o'clock" or "8:00", not "8 0'clock". > -- I agree that these are better, but apart from "0'clock" the original isn't actually wrong, and could be said by a native speaker. athel >> > Can you please correct this sentence for me? >> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I agree that these are better, but apart from "0'clock" the original >isn't actually wrong, and could be said by a native speaker. I must be missing something. What's wrong with "at 8 o'clock"? SignatureArchie Valparaiso > >> > Can you please correct this sentence for me? > >> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I must be missing something. What's wrong with "at 8 o'clock"? Nothing with the way you wrote it, but the OP wrote "8 0'clock". I'm not sure if the first character is a zero or a capital O (apparently the former), but either way it's not usual. a. >> >> > Can you please correct this sentence for me? >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >not sure if the first character is a zero or a capital O (apparently >the former), but either way it's not usual. Ah, OK. (They look identical in the screen font I'm using.) SignatureArchie Valparaiso Archie Valparaiso wrote, referring to zero and oh: > (They look identical in the screen font I'm using.) A saying in Computer Science resembles a legal phrase: "Slash your nulls and kross your septs." British-system postal codes alternate between letters and numbers for good reason. Code-page 780 haz fewer such problems. An uncrossed seven can be confused with an eff, and a "box four" (without a diagonal stroke) can be confused with a leftward ah (which sounds different from aw in my way of thinking), but that's about it. Teh is too angular to be a nine. I don't hav it in truetype. Come to think of it, I don't have the CPI online, yet. I might as well put that together with CP 819 (ISO-8859-1). Why translate if some of the symbols simply aren't there? _______ <a href="http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/">BrewJay's Babble Bin</a> > Archie Valparaiso wrote, referring to zero and oh: > >> (They look identical in the screen font I'm using.) > > A saying in Computer Science resembles a legal phrase: "Slash your > nulls and kross your septs." There's a cultural clash in there somewhere. When I was learning FORTRAN (1967, IIRC) the accepted wisdom was to cross the letter "O" so that it didn't look like a zero. It was at least a couple of years - I don't recall how many - later that I came across the opposite convention. My vague memory is that you were supposed to slash the letter O if you were writing on a coding sheet in preparation to using a card punch, but to slash the digit 0 if you were writing on the back of old printer paper in preparation to type it on a teletype. Does anyone else have such a recollection? Of course, that was in the days when you went through many drafts and corrections before even confronting the card punch or teletype. It's not really relevant to the present programming philosophy of "type it in first, debug later, and design after the job is finished". SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. peter@ozebelgDieSpammers.org had it: > > Archie Valparaiso wrote, referring to zero and oh: > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > really relevant to the present programming philosophy of "type it in > first, debug later, and design after the job is finished". I think this is an ICL/IBM divide. We (ICL-biased) were taught to cross our zeros but I have a vague memory that IBM folk crossed the letter O. SignatureDavid ===== > I think this is an ICL/IBM divide. We (ICL-biased) were taught to > cross our zeros but I have a vague memory that IBM folk crossed the > letter O. Truly? SignatureSalvatore Volatile The the Omrud entity posted thusly: >peter@ozebelgDieSpammers.org had it: >> > Archie Valparaiso wrote, referring to zero and oh: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >cross our zeros but I have a vague memory that IBM folk crossed the >letter O. I started with IBM in 1966, and learned Fortran in 1968. We crossed our zeros. I was with IBM Canada though, and IBM in other countries may have had different conventions. >The the Omrud entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >our zeros. I was with IBM Canada though, and IBM in other countries >may have had different conventions. Nope. We crossed zeros in IBM UK. SignatureRobin Herts, England The Robin Bignall entity posted thusly: >>The the Omrud entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >Nope. We crossed zeros in IBM UK. Ahh. IBM UK, birthplace of the 30/40, containing one of the most bizarre implementations of ROM ever devised by man (TROS, in case you wondered). It was very reliable, though. > Ahh. IBM UK, birthplace of the 30/40, containing one of the most > bizarre implementations of ROM ever devised by man (TROS, in case you > wondered). It was very reliable, though. Verily. SignatureSalvatore Volatile >The Robin Bignall entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >bizarre implementations of ROM ever devised by man (TROS, in case you >wondered). It was very reliable, though. If that was meant to be the 360/40, it was the standard workhorse in medium-sized IBM shops when I joined. The bigger ones had 360/65s, and the seismic/scientific accounts had 360/44s with array processors. Of course, "medium-sized" and "bigger" were related to the entry-level size of a company that could afford computers in those days (late 1960s). Castrol for example, was a medium-sized company: Shell was a large one. In 1970, a typical 360/40 installation rented for about £25,000 a month. SignatureRobin Herts, England The Robin Bignall entity posted thusly: >>The Robin Bignall entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >If that was meant to be the 360/40, it was the standard workhorse in >medium-sized IBM shops when I joined. That's what I mean to type. The model 40 was probably my favourite machine. One of the few things that ever went wrong with it was Local Storage Read Errors. It was always the 5804262 card in C2D2, and I got a lot of mileage out of showing up on site with the replacement card in hand, powering down the CPU, changing the card, and walking away, telling the operator it was fixed. > The bigger ones had 360/65s, >and the seismic/scientific accounts had 360/44s with array processors. The University of Waterloo (the Canadian one, in case there's a UK one, had a 360/75, and one day while wandering around the site, I noticed a machine that turned out to be a 360/44, with a disk drive in the side of it. Decidedly different. >Of course, "medium-sized" and "bigger" were related to the entry-level >size of a company that could afford computers in those days (late >1960s). Castrol for example, was a medium-sized company: Shell was a >large one. In 1970, a typical 360/40 installation rented for about >£25,000 a month. Sounds about right. I distinctly recall installing a 64K BOM (core storage unit) on a model 40, doubling the storage size. How times have changed. > The University of Waterloo (the Canadian one, in case there's a UK > one, had a 360/75, and one day while wandering around the site, I > noticed a machine that turned out to be a 360/44 ... That /75 was the first computer I used while in the same building that it was in, via the Debug Terminal. If the /44 is the one that was in the Red Room with it, it was the first computer I used interactively (doing APL). SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Men! Give them enough rope and they'll dig msb@vex.net | their own grave." -- EARTH GIRLS ARE EASY The Mark Brader entity posted thusly: >> The University of Waterloo (the Canadian one, in case there's a UK >> one, had a 360/75, and one day while wandering around the site, I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the Red Room with it, it was the first computer I used interactively >(doing APL). Neat stuff. Yes, that /44 was in the same room. It wasn't my account, but occasionally I assisted the fellows there with Engineering Changes (ECs). As you may have gathered from context, I was a Customer Engineer (CE). >> Archie Valparaiso wrote, referring to zero and oh: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > years - I don't recall how many - later that I came across the > opposite convention. I learned BASIC in 1978, and was taught to cross my zeroes. I'm pretty sure that the first microcomputers I worked on (PETs, Apples, and TRS-80s) had slashes on their displayed zeroes. I think, but I'm not certain, that the Heath/Zenith Z19 terminals we used at Stanford also had slashes on their zeroes, largely because I seem to recall that the DEC VT100s didn't, and that was strange. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Those who would give up essential 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Liberty, to purchase a little Palo Alto, CA 94304 |temporary Safety, deserve neither |Liberty nor Safety. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Benjamin Franklin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Archie Valparaiso wrote, referring to zero and oh: >>> (They look identical in the screen font I'm using.) >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > printer paper in preparation to type it on a teletype. Does anyone > else have such a recollection? I've prepared many coding sheets for my programs in my earlier efforts, and it was the letter o that was slashed. That was weird, as for all other purposes, it was the zero that got slashed. SignatureSkitt Ever ready to retract the aforesaid and aver the opposite. "Tersen": > > A saying in Computer Science resembles a legal phrase: "Slash your > > nulls and kross your septs." Nobody *I* know in "computer science" calls the digit 0 a "null" -- that's the name of an ASCII control character -- or calls any character a "sept". Unless they're speaking German and French respectively, I suppose. Peter Moylan: > There's a cultural clash in there somewhere. When I was learning FORTRAN > (1967, IIRC) the accepted wisdom was to cross the letter "O" so that it > didn't look like a zero. It was at least a couple of years - I don't > recall how many - later that I came across the opposite convention. Same with me. I still do it sometimes when I'm the person who's going to be reading what I wrote. There are two styles: one, the more common in my experience, looks like the Danish/Norwegian letter Ø; the other uses a half-slash and looks like a Q reflected on a horizontal axis. If you're an O-slasher and you need to make it explicit that a certain character is a zero and not an O that you forgot to slash, you put a dot in the center. (I dimly recall seeing an IBM terminal of some kind that used dotted zeros.) Of course, in any decent print or screen font there is no need or excuse for any of this -- the O is simply wider than the 0, or in a monospaced font, its corners are made squarer so that it encloses more area. (Sadly, one computer I used at university had two printers, one of which got this backwards, and print jobs came out on one or the other at random!) When I see slashed zeroes turning up in low-resolution fonts -- credit-card slips printed by cheap dot-matrix printers, for example -- I tend to misread them as 8's. Crossed 7's are, of course, a Continental European convention that distinguishes them from a handwritten style of 1 where only the top serif is used and it is greatly exaggerated, so the digit looks like a closed 4 with no crossbar, or sometimes even like a capital lambda. There is no need for them in English-speaking countries, where 1's are not written that way. When I went to university I learned to cross my Z's and z's, which keeps them from looking like 2's, and I still do this. If you also cross your 7's, they then end up looking too much like Z's. SignatureMark Brader "I wasn't the one who misplaced the entire Toronto Deltivid asteroid belt!" msb@vex.net "Deja Q", ST:TNG, Richard Danus My text in this article is in the public domain. The Mark Brader entity posted thusly: >"Tersen": >> > A saying in Computer Science resembles a legal phrase: "Slash your [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >a "sept". Unless they're speaking German and French respectively, >I suppose. Well, I ain't no computer scientist. Being a programmer, however, I refer to the VALUE of 0 as a NULL quite often, in programs. The 'digit' 0 is a character representing a zero or a NULL. The ASCII control character you are thinking of, though, is NUL (not NULL). I have never heard anyone call anything a "sept" in English. >>>> A saying in Computer Science resembles a legal phrase: "Slash your >>>> nulls and kross your septs." >> Nobody *I* know in "computer science" calls the digit 0 a "null" -- >> that's the name of an ASCII control character ... > Well, I ain't no computer scientist. Being a programmer, however, I > refer to the VALUE of 0 as a NULL quite often, in programs. The > 'digit' 0 is a character representing a zero or a NULL. There appear to be multiple errors here, particularly if the language you're talking about is C, but I don't have time now enumerate them. > The ASCII control character you are thinking of, though, is NUL > (not NULL). I said "null". NUL is the standard abbreviation; null is what it abbreviates. Like BS is the standard abbreviation for backspace. > I have never heard anyone call anything a "sept" in English. At least we agree on that. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto cat>/dev/null got your tongue? msb@vex.net -- Jutta Degener My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader filted: >I said "null". NUL is the standard abbreviation; null is what it >abbreviates. Like BS is the standard abbreviation for backspace. Inter alia....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. Mark Brader: >> I said "null". NUL is the standard abbreviation; null is what it >> abbreviates. Like BS is the standard abbreviation for backspace. R.H. Draney: > Inter alia. (Chuckle) But, well, backspace is the one that null's most like. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto This is a signature antibody. Please msb@vex.net remove any viruses from your signature. > Mark Brader filted: >> >>I said "null". NUL is the standard abbreviation; null is what it >>abbreviates. Like BS is the standard abbreviation for backspace. > > Inter alia....r Nil desperandum. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> Mark Brader filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Nil desperandum. My old school motto. We didn't have a school song, uniforms or foreign language lessons, but we never despaired. SignatureRobin Herts, England docrobin@ntlworld.com had it: > >> Mark Brader filted: > >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > My old school motto. We didn't have a school song, uniforms or > foreign language lessons, but we never despaired. Ah, we did have a motto which was woven into the badges on our wool blazers. "Abeunt studia in mores", roughly translated as "Study builds character". However, apart from its appearance on badges, it was never mentioned in my seven years at the school. I am somewhat incredulous to see that Lake Forest High School, Illinois, which has the same motto, has this explanation and translation on its web site: <quote> Abeunt Studia in Mores, inscribed in stone over the main entrance, is the Lake Forest High School motto. Literally translated from the Latin it would read: Abeunt ("they leave" or "they go away from"), Studia (?eagerness, fondness, desire, striving after, devotion to, or "zeal"), in ("in" or "into") and Mores ("morality, philosophy," or "ethics"). Hence, it could be translated to read: "They leave, striving after morality." </quote> SignatureDavid ===== >>> Mark Brader filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > My old school motto. We didn't have a school song, uniforms or > foreign language lessons, but we never despaired. Are you counting Latin as a foreign language in making the above statement? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> Mark Brader filted: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Are you counting Latin as a foreign language in making the above statement? "Nil desperandum" was just about the only Latin we were made aware of, and not very often. This was a secondary modern for eleven-plus failures, designed for future hole diggers, truck drivers, shelf stackers and, if you were lucky enough to get an apprenticeship, machine operators and electricians. One left school at the end of the term that contained one's 15th birthday, and the level of education was not, at that time (1950 through 1954 in my case), sufficient for entry into the lowest of the public examinations for a qualification. (That would have been ONC - Ordinary National Certificate, a semi-technical qualification less difficult than the GCE: CSE, the precursor to GCSE, had not been introduced at that time.) Actually, the standard of teaching for what we did was quite good, for those who wanted to learn and who had the guts and determination to withstand the sneers and bullying from those (the majority) who didn't. This was because the teachers were mostly pretty good and formed two distinct groups: - those who had been teaching for a long time and who were either too old to be called up during the war or were what Americans would call 4F (unfit for military service) - those who had been regular servicemen and had seen a belly full of war, or those who had been at university and had had their education curtailed, and who had taken advantage of the one-year teachers' training schemes for ex-servicemen. It was only during my final few months that the first teacher who had been through one of the then-new three-year teachers' training courses started at the school. He was 21, and it was he who suggested that I find a college of further education at which I could get started on a course leading to GCE. SignatureRobin Herts, England >>>>Nil desperandum. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "Nil desperandum" was just about the only Latin we were made aware of, > and not very often. This was a secondary modern 'Nuff said; I get the picture. Though I did enjoy your fuller description of your experience there. Thanks for that. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >Well, I ain't no computer scientist. Being a programmer, however, I >refer to the VALUE of 0 as a NULL quite often, in programs. The >'digit' 0 is a character representing a zero or a NULL. The ASCII >control character you are thinking of, though, is NUL (not NULL). "Null" is used for things like empty strings of lists; it isn't necessarily zero. >I have never heard anyone call anything a "sept" in English. A subdivision of a clan (but perhaps that's Irish, not English.) David msb@vex.net had it: > "Tersen": > > > A saying in Computer Science resembles a legal phrase: "Slash your [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > in the center. (I dimly recall seeing an IBM terminal of some kind that > used dotted zeros.) You remind me that when we had to write on coding sheets for "punch girls", full-stop/period was made to stand out by drawing a circle around it, and a space was made explicit with a special character - a sort of low capital U with square corners. SignatureDavid ===== [...] > You remind me that when we had to write on coding sheets for "punch > girls", full-stop/period was made to stand out by drawing a circle > around it, and a space was made explicit with a special character - > a sort of low capital U with square corners. That rings a bell with me too, though I can't recall where from. SignatureLes Kleinvieh machen auch Mist. the Omrud filted: >You remind me that when we had to write on coding sheets for "punch >girls", full-stop/period was made to stand out by drawing a circle >around it, and a space was made explicit with a special character - >a sort of low capital U with square corners. Our "space" glyph was a lowercase "b" (redolent of "blank"?) with a diagonal slash through it....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. dadoctah@spamcop.net had it: > the Omrud filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Our "space" glyph was a lowercase "b" (redolent of "blank"?) with a diagonal > slash through it....r I've also been in places where a small triangle was used, with the point down. SignatureDavid ===== "David" and R.H. Draney write: >>> You remind me that when we had to write on coding sheets for "punch >>> girls" ... a space was made explicit with a special character - >>> a sort of low capital U with square corners. >> Our "space" glyph was a lowercase "b" (redolent of "blank"?) with a diagonal >> slash through it. > I've also been in places where a small triangle was used, with the > point down. Unicode characters 2422, 2423, and I guess 25BF, respectively. I've used the first two, but don't remember ever encountering the third (and the Unicode character list doesn't mention about this use of it). In punch card days the name of the character was "blank" for me. I had to retrain myself to call it a "space" after moving to the ASCII world. SignatureMark Brader /"\ ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN msb@vex.net \ / AGAINST HTML MAIL Toronto X AND NEWS / \ msb@vex.net had it: > "David" and R.H. Draney write: > >>> You remind me that when we had to write on coding sheets for "punch [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > used the first two, but don't remember ever encountering the third > (and the Unicode character list doesn't mention about this use of it). Although they may have similar Unicode representations these characters were never punched - they are purely the hand-written symbols which tell the operator to punch a space. Do you "punch" a space on an 80-column card? "leave" a space, perhaps. SignatureDavid ===== "David": >>>>> ... a space was made explicit with a special character - >>>>> a sort of low capital U with square corners. R.H. Draney: >>>> Our "space" glyph was a lowercase "b" (redolent of "blank"?) >>>> with a diagonal slash through it. "David": >>> I've also been in places where a small triangle was used, with the >>> point down. Mark Brader: >> Unicode characters 2422, 2423, and I guess 25BF, respectively. ... "David": > Although they may have similar Unicode representations these > characters were never punched - they are purely the hand-written > symbols which tell the operator to punch a space. Of course. Well, of course they might not always be addressed to a keypunch operator. I still use them occasionally (2422, as it's the simpler character) in handwritten notes to myself, for example. > Do you "punch" a space on an 80-column card? "leave" a space, > perhaps. I think either one of those, except, as I said, it'd be a "blank", not a space. Punching a blank -- it's like responding to an advertisement and sending no money. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "group this in post-top usually don't we" msb@vex.net | -- Mike Lyle My text in this article is in the public domain. The Mark Brader entity posted thusly: >"David": >>>>>> ... a space was made explicit with a special character - [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >not a space. Punching a blank -- it's like responding to an >advertisement and sending no money. One of my favourites.. Punch Card: a very short piece of 80 hole paper tape. > the Omrud filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Our "space" glyph was a lowercase "b" (redolent of "blank"?) with a > diagonal slash through it....r I've just bought (at a ridiculously low price from Lidl) one of those devices for making plastic adhesive labels. The "space" key has the symbol described by the Omrud: I'd never seen it before. Alan Jones >> the Omrud filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >devices for making plastic adhesive labels. The "space" key has the symbol >described by the Omrud: I'd never seen it before. There seems to be [diffident English approach to "there is"] one on my phone, sharing a button with the zero character (Mostel?). SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! > >> the Omrud filted: > >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > There seems to be [diffident English approach to "there is"] one on my > phone, sharing a button with the zero character (Mostel?). You know, I rather think there seems to be one on mine, too. You may not quite agree, of course, sorry. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> In message <WKSph.70567$Kh7.19012@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan >Jones [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >-- Gosh, didn't mean to tread on any toes, but you know, I think, perhaps, you could be right. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! atj@blueyonder.co.uk had it: > > the Omrud filted: > >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > devices for making plastic adhesive labels. The "space" key has the symbol > described by the Omrud: I'd never seen it before. Golly - I never consciously noticed but my Brother label maker has the symbol. SignatureDavid ===== The Alan Jones entity posted thusly: >> the Omrud filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >devices for making plastic adhesive labels. The "space" key has the symbol >described by the Omrud: I'd never seen it before. There's a 'space' symbol exactly like that on every cell phone I have owned. It's used when entering contact names. > You remind me that when we had to write on coding sheets for "punch > girls", full-stop/period was made to stand out by drawing a circle > around it, and a space was made explicit with a special character - > a sort of low capital U with square corners. Copyeditors use that same circled period. SignatureSML > a space was made explicit with a special character - > a sort of low capital U with square corners. I still have that on my sat-nav input screen (Volvo XC70). SignatureWH The Tersen entity posted thusly: >Archie Valparaiso wrote, referring to zero and oh: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >British-system postal codes alternate between letters and numbers for >good reason. Really? Can you name one? I have yet to figure out a good reason for Canadian postal codes to alternate, and to put a space in the middle. "V6G 4T2" translates to "<shift>V <unshift>6 <shift>G <unshift><space> 4 <shift>T <unshift>2" Sure, the order is indicative of larger to smaller geographical divisions, but what would be wrong with using those same divisions by looking at the appropriate position in a postal code with the letters and numbers grouped separately? I suppose it makes it harder to eliminate risque words, but I don't see that as a very good reason at all. > The Tersen entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > alternate, and to put a space in the middle. "V6G 4T2" translates to > "<shift>V <unshift>6 <shift>G <unshift><space> 4 <shift>T <unshift>2" I suspect one reason would have been to reduce the chance of errors when coding. Originally a lot of the postal codes were 'typed' by coders who read the postal code, particularly for handwritten addresses. If I remember correctly, the keyboard has setup so that the first key hit typed a letter, the next a number, and so on. The keyboard was a speciallly designed one with no shift keys, and the space was not used. It also has the advantage that once you're used to the format an invalid code say KK1 3H5 is very apparent. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada > Sure, the order is indicative of larger to smaller geographical > divisions, but what would be wrong with using those same divisions by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I suppose it makes it harder to eliminate risque words, but I don't > see that as a very good reason at all. >> I have yet to figure out a good reason for Canadian postal codes to >> alternate, and to put a space in the middle. "V6G 4T2" translates to >> "<shift>V <unshift>6 <shift>G <unshift><space> 4 <shift>T <unshift>2" Of course, if you have a Caps Lock key as on modern computer keyboards, it's just "<caps lock> V 6 G <space> 4 T 2 <unlock>". But in 1973 that was in the future for most of us. > I suspect one reason would have been to reduce the chance of errors > when coding. Originally a lot of the postal codes were 'typed' by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > keyboard was a speciallly designed one with no shift keys, and the > space was not used. Ah, that does explain it -- it was an optimization! I bet these special keyboards had a separate numeric keypad and someone had the bright idea that if letters and numbers alternated, then these typists would be able to use *alternate hands* and therefore go some tiny but measurable fraction faster! > It also has the advantage that once you're used to the format an > invalid code say KK1 3H5 is very apparent. In other words, transposition errors produce impossible codes. Yeah, there's something to that too. SignatureMark Brader | The last 10% of the performance sought contributes Toronto | one-third of the cost and two-thirds of the problems. msb@vex.net | -- Norm Augustine My text in this article is in the public domain. > >> I have yet to figure out a good reason for Canadian postal codes to > >> alternate, and to put a space in the middle. "V6G 4T2" translates to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > to use *alternate hands* and therefore go some tiny but measurable > fraction faster! Actually no. It was a one-handed keyboard, which if I remember correctly was about the size of a thick paperback book and only had enough keys for the letters that were used in the postal code plus some special routing keys. Some letters are not used, probably because of OCR recognition which was not all that good back in the early days of the postal code. > > It also has the advantage that once you're used to the format an > > invalid code say KK1 3H5 is very apparent. > > In other words, transposition errors produce impossible codes. Yeah, > there's something to that too. > -- Yes I think so. It also is easier for a normal user to realise that there is something wrong when the code is written. This is particularly true if you know what the codes signify in terms of areas. Thus I would realise that something was wrong if I had a Kingston ON address with a code like M5W 1E6 or H3C 3J8 . It is similar to having someone give you the "Toronto" phone number 514-333-2233. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada The John Kane entity posted thusly: >> >> I have yet to figure out a good reason for Canadian postal codes to >> >> alternate, and to put a space in the middle. "V6G 4T2" translates to [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >address with a code like M5W 1E6 or H3C 3J8 . It is similar to having >someone give you the "Toronto" phone number 514-333-2233. Yes, but a code of "MWE 516" or "HCJ 338" would look just as wrong. > The Tersen entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Really? Can you name one? OCR-friendly fonts wer designed for good reason, too. 5S handwritten, sometimes -- mistakenly read, sometimes, especially old OCR software reading what is handwritten. There's also 9q, 2Z, 6G, and 1l. Note that they're all confusions between numbers and letters. I've never seen a postal code where case was significant, so the following seems to be a prolific overextension of the rule: > I have yet to figure out a good reason for Canadian postal codes to > alternate, and to put a space in the middle. "V6G 4T2" translates to > "<shift>V <unshift>6 <shift>G <unshift><space> 4 <shift>T <unshift>2" (...) _______ <a href="http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/">BrewJay's Babble Bin</a> The Bogosity entity posted thusly: >> The Tersen entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >_______ ><a href="http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/">BrewJay's Babble Bin</a> Well, my point was that the position of the letters and numbers doesn't matter. "V6G 4T2" is not substantially different than "VGT 642". It is, however, much easier to remember and to type. [Canadian postal codes] > Well, my point was that the position of the letters and numbers > doesn't matter. > > "V6G 4T2" is not substantially different than "VGT 642". > > It is, however, much easier to remember and to type. Nothing is easy for me to remember or type. I do remember Santa's PC, though: H0H 0H0. Since the code goes from the regional to the street-level particular as you move from left to right, putting all the digits on the right side would give you only a thousand local zones to play with, instead of <risking everything> 2600. The CDB entity posted thusly: >[Canadian postal codes] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Nothing is easy for me to remember or type. I do remember Santa's PC, >though: H0H 0H0. Heh... I remember all sorts of things, most of which are somewhat patterned in an easy-to-remember form. Phone numbers, license plate numbers, etc., but postal codes have me down to remembering my own and one other, through humourous, albeit convoluted and forced, mnemonics. Mine is "Son 0f a Gun, 3 Elephants 0utside". The other one I remember is Galiano Island, because it's named after the famous Count "Von Ipo" (V0N 1P0) >Since the code goes from the regional to the street-level particular >as you move from left to right, putting all the digits on the right >side would give you only a thousand local zones to play with, instead >of <risking everything> 2600. Not at all. Each designator would still stand for the same level of geographical detail. Only the order would change. These things are designed to be machine-readable, and it's trivial to get the machine to deal with any order desired. As for people, instead of looking at "V6" and seeing a province and "largish chunk" of a province, would see "V.. 6.." as the same thing. Easier to remember, still works. Oh, and 2600 is correct, but only if you are considering the final two places. 10 for the last number, and 260 for the middle letter of the right-side group. Figuring in the next number in the sequence, it jumps to 26,0000. (leaving myself wide open here, too. Math not major skill of Oleg) > The other one I remember is Galiano Island, because it's named after > the famous Count "Von Ipo" (V0N 1P0) Because of the way codes are assigned to small towns without mail delivery, a large number of them have the digits 0, 1, 0 in that order. I remember some years ago looking at my Christmas card list and realizing that two of the postal codes on it differed only in the *first letter*. They were both of this type. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Winning isn't everything, but not trying to win msb@vex.net | is less than nothing." --Anton van Uitert (...) > Ah, OK. (They look identical in the screen font I'm using.) In some places, nulls are slashed, septs are krost, and characters above 127 are used for things other than boxes. Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600] (C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp. C:\>type autoexec.bat mode con codepage prepare=((819) C:\msdos7\isolatin.cpi) mode con codepage select=819 C:\>mode con codepage select=819 The code page specified is not valid. C:\>mode con codepage prepare=((819) c:\msdos7\isolatin.cpi) This operation is not necessary under Windows XP. C:\>GAH! The could've fooled me! Rewrite of "Lucida Console" it is. > > > Can you please correct this sentence for me? > > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I agree that these are better, but apart from "0'clock" the original > isn't actually wrong, and could be said by a native speaker. I agree. To use the present tense to signify "as a general rule, as a usual practice" feels like the best possible use of it. Here, getting up early is a daily habit, and just because it has only been around during this one year doesn't affect that. I've noticed a strong tendency in the last two to five years for native speakers to use the progressive ("I'm getting") where the simple present ("I get") used to do. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Alberto Angulo, I guess, asked about: >>>> This year I get up earlier because my first lesson starts at 8 0'clock. I (Mark Brader) wrote: >>> Say "I am getting up earlier" (or "I have to get up earlier"). Some more alternatives: "I'm getting up earlier", "I have got to get up earlier", "I've got to get up earlier". Outside of formal writing the forms without contractions would be used as a way of providing a mild emphasis; I'm not sure why I used them originally. I would recommend "I'm getting up earlier" as the most natural choice. Athel C.B. comments: >> I agree that these are better, but apart from "0'clock" the original >> isn't actually wrong, and could be said by a native speaker. Donna Richoux agrees: > I agree. To use the present tense to signify "as a general rule, as a > usual practice" feels like the best possible use of it. .... But it *isn't* a general rule; the sentence says so. It's only something that's happening this year. If you guys say that some native speakers would say "I get", fine, but I say it's the wrong choice (although it is grammatical). SignatureMark Brader | "I don't mean to be snooty or snippy or some other msb@vex.net | six-letter word starting with s, ending in y, and Toronto | having a doubled letter in the middle... Ah! Snotty! | Didn't mean to be that either." -- Hashi Lebwohl My text in this article is in the public domain. > Can you please correct this sentence for me? > > This year I get up earlier because my first lesson starts at 8 0'clock. If this has been marked as incorrect by an EF/SL teacher, it's probably because by providing a time frame - 'this year' - that suggests both present time and a temporary state of being, the sentence suggests use of present continuous (aka present progressive) - "This year I'm getting up earlier..." - and this was the answer your teacher wanted. However, as pointed out elsethread, the version as is would not sound especially strange to many native speakers. DC > Can you please correct this sentence for me? > > This year I get up earlier because my first lesson starts at 8 0'clock. Nothing wrong with it, although I'd prefer "I'm getting up earlier this year because...". However, it's not clear at what time you're actually getting up. You may be an inveterate late riser and, though you're getting up earlier, you might still be missing your lesson. So, in the interest of exactness, I would say, "I'm getting up earlier this year so I won't miss my 8 o'clock lesson". |
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