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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Late - as in "the late so-and-so"
I was under the impression that "the late XXXXX" meant "the recently deceased XXXXX". But I often encounter the phrase "the late President Chiang Kai-shek", even though he died more than 30 years ago; not exactly recent. Roughly how long should someone be dead before it is appropriate to drop the "late"? And what is the origin of this rather odd phrasing?  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >I was under the impression that "the late XXXXX" meant "the recently >deceased XXXXX". But I often encounter the phrase "the late President Chiang >Kai-shek", even though he died more than 30 years ago; not exactly recent. > >Roughly how long should someone be dead before it is appropriate to drop the >"late"? And what is the origin of this rather odd phrasing? I was intrigued to find out that in Botswana apparently it is common to use this sense of late as in "He is late" to mean he is dead. I get this from reading those charming books about a lady detective in Botswana where this construct is used numerous times. But I've never come across it myself in the wild - I assume this is peculiar to BotsE or possibly some of thre neighboring countries as well - the names of which I can't keep track of because they've all changed since I lived on that continent. Nyasaland, Bechuanaland, Basutoland, all gone... Jitze >> I was under the impression that "the late XXXXX" meant "the recently >> deceased XXXXX". But I often encounter the phrase "the late [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I get this from reading those charming books about a lady > detective in Botswana where this construct is used numerous times. I think the most we can say is that Alexander McCall Smith, Rhodesian-born Scot, has chosen to put that dialogue into the mouth of his characters. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>> I was under the impression that "the late XXXXX" meant "the recently >>> deceased XXXXX". But I often encounter the phrase "the late [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I think the most we can say is that Alexander McCall Smith, Rhodesian-born >Scot, has chosen to put that dialogue into the mouth of his characters. No, we can say more. It's quite authentic, and frequently used in South Africa too. The books may be fiction, but the settings are authentic. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>I was under the impression that "the late XXXXX" meant "the recently >>deceased XXXXX". But I often encounter the phrase "the late President Chiang [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I was intrigued to find out that in Botswana apparently it is common >to use this sense of late as in "He is late" to mean he is dead. In South Africa too. >I get this from reading those charming books about a lady >detective in Botswana where this construct is used numerous times. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >all changed since I lived on that continent. Nyasaland, Bechuanaland, >Basutoland, all gone... Same thing in Europe -- Germany has changed its name to Deutschland, Spain has changed to Espana, Angleterre has become England, and many more. >Jitze SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>I was under the impression that "the late XXXXX" meant "the recently >>deceased XXXXX". But I often encounter the phrase "the late President Chiang [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I was intrigued to find out that in Botswana apparently it is common >to use this sense of late as in "He is late" to mean he is dead. Why *should* this construction be unheard of? daniel mcgrath SignatureDaniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende": for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com" Developmentally disabled; has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder), Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, & periodic bouts of depression. [This signature is under construction.] > >>I was under the impression that "the late XXXXX" meant "the recently > >>deceased XXXXX". But I often encounter the phrase "the late President Chiang > >>Kai-shek", even though he died more than 30 years ago; not exactly recent. > >> > >>Roughly how long should someone be dead before it is appropriate to drop the > >>"late"? And what is the origin of this rather odd phrasing? A cosmologist might say that late is o.k. if they died less than a million years ago. > >I was intrigued to find out that in Botswana apparently it is common > >to use this sense of late as in "He is late" to mean he is dead. > > > Why *should* this construction be unheard of? There's a great risk of misunderstanding. When we say the late John F. Kennedy there's no ambiguity, but when we say Sam is late, no one can know without further explanation whether someone named Sam hasn't arrived on time or has died. > When we say the > late John F. Kennedy there's no ambiguity, but when we say > Sam is late, no one can know without further explanation > whether someone named Sam hasn't arrived on time or has died. Usage suggests that "Sam is late" is _not_ general or current usage to mean Sam has died. When a speaker wants to use the word late thus he always adds the definite article to say "Sam is 'the late.' " SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > > When we say the > > late John F. Kennedy there's no ambiguity, but when we say [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > speaker wants to use the word late thus he always > adds the definite article to say "Sam is 'the late.' " I agree that that's true of my speech, but my remarks were in response to an assertion that in some dialect (maybe somewhere in Africa; I forget) you can say Sam is late to mean Sam has died. I was commenting on that dialect, not on yours or mine. Anyhow maybe in that African dialect Sam is late can mean *only* Sam has died, and you have to say Sam isn't here yet to mean what we mean when we say Sam is late. > > When we say the > > late John F. Kennedy there's no ambiguity, but when we say [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > speaker wants to use the word late thus he always > adds the definite article to say "Sam is 'the late.' " Or in l33+-sp33k: "Sam is 'teh lat3z0rz!!!!!1!!111eleventy-one!!!'" -=Eric >> When we say the >> late John F. Kennedy there's no ambiguity, but when we say [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >speaker wants to use the word late thus he always >adds the definite article to say "Sam is 'the late.' " It IS general and current usage in some varieties of English. It might not be current in your particular dialect, but there are others for whom it is current. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>> I was under the impression that "the late XXXXX" meant "the >>>> recently deceased XXXXX". But I often encounter the phrase "the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > whether someone named Sam hasn't arrived on time or has > died. I had a hunch about this expression, which would at least in part explain why we don't say "X is late"; and hied me to OED, where I found: < 5. a. Of a person: That was alive not long ago, but is not now; recently deceased. 1490 CAXTON Eneydos vi. 28 Her swete and late amyable husbonde. a1548 HALL Chron., Hen. IV, 10b, The homecide of Thomas his uncle late duke of Glocester. 1570 BUCHANAN Admonitioun Wks. (S.T.S.) 22 Ye murthour of ye lait King Henry. 1662 STILLINGFL. Orig. Sacr. II. vii. §7 The late learned Rabbi Manasse Ben Israel. 1727 DE FOE Syst. Magic I. iii. (1840) 84 Our late friend Jonathan. 1794 MRS. RADCLIFFE Myst. Udolpho xxv, I did nothing but dream I saw my late lady's ghost. 1838 LYTTON Alice 23, I always call the late Lord Vargrave my father. 1884 Times (weekly ed.) 5 Sept. 1/1 The remains of the late Lord Ampthill.> OED's definition doesn't imply support for my hunch; but I'd like to draw your attention to the examples. In not one of them is there a use like "the late [person's name]". They all refer to positions or relationships, such as "Lord X", "husband", or "friend", which at death either stop or are transferred to somebody else: one's name doesn't stop or get bequeathed at death. So we can't use "late" and the present tense with a dead person's name; but we can do so with his or her status. Further, does this mean that the "recent" and "former" senses of the word originally converged to some extent in this usage? I wonder if a rough time-limit for non-humorous use of "late" is set by the lifetime, or even the memory, of the speaker. "The late Queen Mother" is clearly OK; "Her late Imperial Majesty, Queen Victoria" is as clearly meant to be jocular; but I'm not quite certain about "The late King George VI". I wonder if it's not a question of meaning, but one of register: I have a sense that I'd probably use "late" if I were talking formally or politely to anybody about a dead close relative of theirs, even if the death had been fifty years ago SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > >I was intrigued to find out that in Botswana apparently it is common > >to use this sense of late as in "He is late" to mean he is dead. > > Why *should* this construction be unheard of? Because in normal AmE/BrE, 'late' is a synonym for 'tardy'. -=Eric >> >I was intrigued to find out that in Botswana apparently it is common >> >to use this sense of late as in "He is late" to mean he is dead. >> >> Why *should* this construction be unheard of? > >Because in normal AmE/BrE, 'late' is a synonym for 'tardy'. So what? A word can't have more than one meaning? >-=Eric daniel mcgrath SignatureDaniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende": for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com" Developmentally disabled; has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder), Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, & periodic bouts of depression. [This signature is under construction.] >>>> I was intrigued to find out that in Botswana apparently it is >>>> common to use this sense of late as in "He is late" to mean he [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > So what? A word can't have more than one meaning? It's not infrequent, but it shouldn't be overdone. >>>>> I was intrigued to find out that in Botswana apparently it is >>>>> common to use this sense of late as in "He is late" to mean he [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It's not infrequent, but it shouldn't be overdone. Daniel, I know we're not supposed to reply to our own posts, and I deplore the practice of explaining jokes -- but I see that you have been posting and haven't replied to this one; so I'm going to break a couple of rules in case you didn't notice, because I think the word that is the point of the joke might interest you. Did you see that the word "overdone", in some contexts, is the opposite of both meanings of the word "rare"? [...] >Daniel, I know we're not supposed to reply to our own posts, and I >deplore the practice of explaining jokes -- but I see that you have >been posting and haven't replied to this one; so I'm going to break a >couple of rules in case you didn't notice, because I think the word >that is the point of the joke might interest you. Perhaps you are forgetting that I only ever have Internet access approximately 3 to 3 1/2 hours a day? And that doesn't even include holidays and weekends, on which I am never here and therefore invariably silent. daniel mcgrath SignatureDaniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende": for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com" Developmentally disabled; has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder), Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, & periodic bouts of depression. [This signature is under construction.] > [...] >> >>[autoexegesis] > Perhaps you are forgetting that I only ever have Internet access > approximately 3 to 3 1/2 hours a day? And that doesn't even include > holidays and weekends, on which I am never here and therefore > invariably silent. Understood. As I said, I just thought the word would interest you. > >> >I was intrigued to find out that in Botswana apparently it is common > >> >to use this sense of late as in "He is late" to mean he is dead. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > So what? A word can't have more than one meaning? Of course it can; when one meaning is overwhelmingly predominant, however, then employing a less-common meaning in a context where the most common one is also appropriate is an invitation for misunderstanding. -=Eric |
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