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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 200719th year vs. 19 years old
Can you cite a reference resolving the precise meaning of _th year? That is, I think I found in Richard Henry Dana's "Two Years Before the Mast" a phrase that went something like this, "The Pilgrim set sail, I, in my 19th year, . . . " or some such (I no longer have a copy). 1. Was Dana 18 years old or 19 years old? I really don't care how old he was. I want to be able to infer age reliably from a statement such as the above. 2. Most importantly, is there a reference citing common usage? I didn't find anything in Fowler or the Merriam Webster dictionares of English usage. Failing all this, could you direct me to someone who, or some site that, or some reference which might address this question? In our last episode, <1168548701.704787.118630@o58g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and talented w00006 broadcast on alt.usage.english: > Can you cite a reference resolving the precise meaning of _th year? No. I cannot imagine who would write a reference for something that is so plain in meaning. > That is, I think I found in Richard Henry Dana's "Two Years Before the > Mast" a phrase that went something like this, "The Pilgrim set sail, I, > in my 19th year, . . . " or some such (I no longer have a copy). > 1. Was Dana 18 years old or 19 years old? 18.  SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner> Nobody home but the lights, and they're out too. > Can you cite a reference resolving the precise meaning of _th year? > That is, I think I found in Richard Henry Dana's "Two Years Before the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > he was. I want to be able to infer age reliably from a statement such > as the above. 18 > 2. Most importantly, is there a reference citing common usage? I > didn't find anything in Fowler or the Merriam Webster dictionares of > English usage. Not sure of a reference, but it's pretty easy to calculate: 1st year = [birth, 1 year old) 2nd year = [1 year old, 2 years old) ... 19th year = [18 years old, 19 years old) In much the same way as the "20th century" is [1901, 2001), not [2001,2101). SignatureClark S. Cox III clarkcox3@gmail.com Clark S. Cox III filted: >Not sure of a reference, but it's pretty easy to calculate: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >In much the same way as the "20th century" is [1901, 2001), not [2001,2101). Here's a heavy stick...you'll need it....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Clark S. Cox III filted: >> Not sure of a reference, but it's pretty easy to calculate: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Here's a heavy stick...you'll need it....r To be honest, I'm not sure what you're saying there. SignatureClark S. Cox III clarkcox3@gmail.com > > Clark S. Cox III filted: > >> Not sure of a reference, but it's pretty easy to calculate: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > To be honest, I'm not sure what you're saying there. To count, I think. '20th century' is 1901-2000, not 2001. The 1900s, of course, from 1900-1999. SignaturePer Erik Rønne http://www.RQNNE.dk =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_R=F8nne?= filted: >> > Clark S. Cox III filted: >> >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >To count, I think. '20th century' is 1901-2000, not 2001. The 1900s, of >course, from 1900-1999. No, I dig half-open intervals...I'm saying that if you're going to start declaring what year centuries begin and end, be prepared for attacks from people who disagree with you.... ....r (former Y2K programmer) Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_R=F8nne?= filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > declaring what year centuries begin and end, be prepared for attacks from people > who disagree with you.... I can cope with the attacks, because I know that I'm right ;) > .....r (former Y2K programmer) Also a former Y2K programmer :) SignatureClark S. Cox III clarkcox3@gmail.com >>> Clark S. Cox III filted: >>>> Not sure of a reference, but it's pretty easy to calculate: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > To count, I think. '20th century' is 1901-2000, not 2001. The 1900s, of > course, from 1900-1999. The use of a ')' instead of a ']' was intentional. The ')' indicates that the endpoint of the range is not inclusive. Therefore: [1901, 2001) means "The range of time starting with the first instant of 1901, ending with the very last instant before 2001" SignatureClark S. Cox III clarkcox3@gmail.com > The use of a ')' instead of a ']' was intentional. The ')' indicates > that the endpoint of the range is not inclusive. Therefore: > > [1901, 2001) means "The range of time starting with the first instant of > 1901, ending with the very last instant before 2001" OK. I'm used to this notation: [1901,2001[ for that. Though I don't think I've had to use it since I was a pupil at our 3-year Sixth Form College for the 16-19 year-olds [called 'gymnasiums']. But it seems as if the English-speaking world uses another notation. Just ompare: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_%28mathematics%29#Higher_mathemat ics> <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(matematik)#.C3.85bne.2C_halv.C3. A5bne_og_lukkede_intervaller> <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intervall_%28Mathematik%29> Clearly we use the German notation. But of course, in Continental Europe the comma is used as the decimal point and the period as the thousands separator - so why not have differences in the notation on intervals too between Continental Europe and the English-speaking world? SignaturePer Erik Rønne http://www.RQNNE.dk > The use of a ')' instead of a ']' was intentional. The ')' indicates > that the endpoint of the range is not inclusive. Therefore: > > [1901, 2001) means "The range of time starting with the first instant > of 1901, ending with the very last instant before 2001" You're treating years as integers, while in reality they themselves are intervals. To me the notation [1901,2001) includes all of 2001 except for the very last instant of 2001. The only difference between [1901,2001) and [1901,2001] is that the latter includes midnight on the 31st of December 2001 (which is also 00:00:00 on the 1st of January 2002). SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. >The only difference between >[1901,2001) and [1901,2001] is that the latter includes midnight on the >31st of December 2001 (which is also 00:00:00 on the 1st of January 2002). Oh sure, in 2001, but not in 1998 or 2005, of course. John SignatureJohn Chew (poslfit on MD) * jjchew@math.utoronto.ca * http://www.poslfit.com > Can you cite a reference resolving the precise meaning of _th year? > That is, I think I found in Richard Henry Dana's "Two Years Before the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Failing all this, could you direct me to someone who, or some site > that, or some reference which might address this question? I know where he is buried. >Can you cite a reference resolving the precise meaning of _th year? >That is, I think I found in Richard Henry Dana's "Two Years Before the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >he was. I want to be able to infer age reliably from a statement such >as the above. He was 18 years old. >2. Most importantly, is there a reference citing common usage? I >didn't find anything in Fowler or the Merriam Webster dictionares of >English usage. Other than common usage, I can't think of any. One's first year of life begins on one's birthday, and is completed on the first anniversary of one's birth (1st birthday), on which one's second year of life begins. >Failing all this, could you direct me to someone who, or some site >that, or some reference which might address this question? There you go! SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >Can you cite a reference resolving the precise meaning of _th year? > >That is, I think I found in Richard Henry Dana's "Two Years Before the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > first anniversary of one's birth (1st birthday), on which one's second year of > life begins. That's not true in Chinese culture, though. Here in Taiwan, my son, born August 31, 1996, is 11. In the West, he would be in his 11th year and only 10. -- Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "Not only are we [USA Americans] convinced that economic liberalization goes hand in hand with democratization, our engagement policy is premised on the false notion that once nations get to know us, they will happily choose to be like us." GREGORY RODRIGUEZ, Irvine senior fellow at the New America Foundation. grodriguez@latimescolumnists.com. http://tinyurl.com/yfccby [Free registration for the LA Times required] >> One's first year of life begins on one's birthday, and is completed on the >> first anniversary of one's birth (1st birthday), on which one's second year of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >born August 31, 1996, is 11. In the West, he would be in his 11th year >and only 10. Wouldn't that be more a matter for alt.usage.mandarin, or whatever they speak in Taiwan? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >> One's first year of life begins on one's birthday, and is completed on the > >> first anniversary of one's birth (1st birthday), on which one's second year of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Wouldn't that be more a matter for alt.usage.mandarin, or whatever they speak > in Taiwan? No. The people who frequent that group already know that. My son speaks English to me, and I have to keep reminding him that when he speaks English, he's 10, not 11. Just so youse guys understand that what's true in English culture isn't always true in all other cultures, even what ought to be something simple and straightforward like how old somebody is. I consider it a matter of English usage, not Mandarin Chinese usage, because the whole world now speaks English, more or less, so it's strictly on topic here in aue. There are at least 15 commonly spoken languages in Taiwan, by the way, almost all native to the island. Mandarin is the newest and not native to Taiwan; it was imposed on everyone by the late Chiang Kai-Shek after he invaded the island following his ignominious defeat by the Communists in 1949. -- Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "Not only are we [USA Americans] convinced that economic liberalization goes hand in hand with democratization, our engagement policy is premised on the false notion that once nations get to know us, they will happily choose to be like us." GREGORY RODRIGUEZ, Irvine senior fellow at the New America Foundation. grodriguez@latimescolumnists.com. http://tinyurl.com/yfccby [Free registration for the LA Times required] > No. The people who frequent that group already know that. My son speaks > English to me, and I have to keep reminding him that when he speaks > English, he's 10, not 11. Or are you just translating your word for 0 to 1 wrongly? SignaturePer Erik Rønne http://www.RQNNE.dk > > No. The people who frequent that group already know that. My son speaks > > English to me, and I have to keep reminding him that when he speaks > > English, he's 10, not 11. > > Or are you just translating your word for 0 to 1 wrongly? Not a chance in the world. I've been here for more than 10 years. I know what I'm talking about. Ask any native speaker of Chinese. -- Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "Not only are we [USA Americans] convinced that economic liberalization goes hand in hand with democratization, our engagement policy is premised on the false notion that once nations get to know us, they will happily choose to be like us." GREGORY RODRIGUEZ, Irvine senior fellow at the New America Foundation. grodriguez@latimescolumnists.com. http://tinyurl.com/yfccby [Free registration for the LA Times required] >>> No. The people who frequent that group already know that. My son speaks >>> English to me, and I have to keep reminding him that when he speaks [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Not a chance in the world. I've been here for more than 10 years. I > know what I'm talking about. Ask any native speaker of Chinese. Oh yeah, and it's more complicated in my case--my "Chinese" age is my real(or western) age + 2. (Well, it's the lunar calender thing anyway) I remember when I was a kid, I often had to struggle mentally when people were asking my age. Most of the kids were in the "+1" group, so if I wanted to go with the majority, I told them "my real age + 1". However, if I follow strict traditional rules, as all the adults in my family told me how old I was, I would be "my real age + 2". The same age difference can be found in wikipedia between Chinese and English versions. --DJ yup, I'm from Taiwan > >>> No. The people who frequent that group already know that. My son speaks > >>> English to me, and I have to keep reminding him that when he speaks [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > However, if I follow strict traditional rules, as all the adults in my > family told me how old I was, I would be "my real age + 2". If I take the lunar calendar into account, my son is also probably "real age + 2" = 12. I did not want to complicate things. [NOTE: I cannot type an apostrophe at the moment, so I cannot use contractions or possessives. When I try to type an apostrophe, I get the DOM inspector. Weird. My prose is not usually this formal.] > The same age difference can be found in wikipedia between Chinese and > English versions. Thank you for the verification. -- Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "Not only are we [USA Americans] convinced that economic liberalization goes hand in hand with democratization, our engagement policy is premised on the false notion that once nations get to know us, they will happily choose to be like us." GREGORY RODRIGUEZ, Irvine senior fellow at the New America Foundation. grodriguez@latimescolumnists.com. http://tinyurl.com/yfccby [Free registration for the LA Times required] > If I take the lunar calendar into account, my son is also probably > "real age + 2" = 12. I did not want to complicate things. Is he also born in January? :) My parents sent me to school according to my "lunar calendar" age, so I ended up always being the youngest in my class. (Can't say I blame them... or maybe I do.. :p) --DJ >> >> One's first year of life begins on one's birthday, and is completed on the >> >> first anniversary of one's birth (1st birthday), on which one's second year of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >always true in all other cultures, even what ought to be something >simple and straightforward like how old somebody is. Is that becaus the Chinese count from co0nception rather than birth? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >> >> One's first year of life begins on one's birthday, and is completed on the > >> >> first anniversary of one's birth (1st birthday), on which one's second year of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Is that becaus the Chinese count from co0nception rather than birth? Or because in Chinese ages are ordinal, while in English they're cardinal? SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > "Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote in message [...] > > Is that becaus the Chinese count from co0nception rather than birth? > > Or because in Chinese ages are ordinal, while in English they're > cardinal? When you're born, you're 1 year old, so it must be that they count from conception rather than birth. That's the explanation that I've been given by many Taiwanese. I know it still doesn't make sense, but neither do string theory and quantum physics, but they have their uses. -- Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "Not only are we [USA Americans] convinced that economic liberalization goes hand in hand with democratization, our engagement policy is premised on the false notion that once nations get to know us, they will happily choose to be like us." GREGORY RODRIGUEZ, Irvine senior fellow at the New America Foundation. grodriguez@latimescolumnists.com. http://tinyurl.com/yfccby [Free registration for the LA Times required] > > >> One's first year of life begins on one's birthday, and is completed on the > > >> first anniversary of one's birth (1st birthday), on which one's second year of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > There are at least 15 commonly spoken languages in Taiwan, by the way, > almost all native to the island. Mandarin, Taiwanese, Hakka (local Han populace) Atayal, Amis, Paiwan, Bunun, Rukai (aboriginals - the other languagese are quite rare) Thai, Indonesian, Tagalog, Vietnamese (foreign blue-collar workers & spouses) English (foreign white-collar workers & spouses) Japanese (the elderly, who were educated during the Japanese occupation) What else? SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> > On 12 Jan 2007 03:04:15 -0800, "CyberCypher" >> > <CyberCypher@gmail.com> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Atayal, Amis, Paiwan, Bunun, Rukai (aboriginals - the other > languagese are quite rare) Yes, but now the Taiwan government recognizes 14 of them, and as rare as they are, they are commonly spoken by the old folks in aboriginal areas. And don't forget the aboriginal cable channel that presents many hours of aboriginal programming. The 15th is the local brand of Southern Min (Taiwanese), of which there are many variants. > Thai, Indonesian, Tagalog, Vietnamese (foreign blue-collar workers > & spouses) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What else? SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "If you are still not convinced of the a.s-brain connection, finish this sentence: 'It is easier to think after I … (a) get a haircut (b) take a dump'." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 12 Jan 2007; http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/ teranews now charges a one-time US$3.95 setup fee -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > That's not true in Chinese culture, though. Here in Taiwan, my son, > born August 31, 1996, is 11. In the West, he would be in his 11th year > and only 10. The same is true in Korea. Or at least that's what I remember a South Korean friend telling me when we were lasses. SignatureSML > Can you cite a reference resolving the precise meaning of _th year? > That is, I think I found in Richard Henry Dana's "Two Years Before the > Mast" a phrase that went something like this, "The Pilgrim set sail, I, > in my 19th year, . . . " or some such (I no longer have a copy). Child born 1st January 2000: 2000: 1st year, 0 year old. 2001: 2nd year, 1 year old. 2002: 3rd year, 2 years old. .. SignaturePer Erik Rønne http://www.RQNNE.dk |
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