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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Common word translated into English becomes esoteric term
On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote: > indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi? > indiayude ethramathe pm anu MANMOHAN SINGH? > Can you translate these from Malayalam to English? > ammu Nalla prasnam, Ammu:-) It was on Diwali 2006 (Oct 21) that I was last asked this poser about the (lack of) expressiveness of English. A precise translation would use the esoteric term "ordinal rank". Following your convention of writing stressed words in capitals: What was the ordinal rank of Indira Gandhi's Prime Ministership of India? Of what ordinal rank is MANMOHAN SINGH'S Prime Ministership of India? http://www.answers.com/topic/ordinal http://developer.apple.com/documentation/OpenSource/Conceptual/ShellScripting/An ExtremeExample/chapter_951_section_3.html On 14 Jan 2007 19:05:32 -0800, "M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in <news:1168830332.490835.148690@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com> in soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang: > On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote: >> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi? >> indiayude ethramathe pm anu MANMOHAN SINGH? >> Can you translate these from Malayalam to English? >> ammu > Nalla prasnam, Ammu:-) > It was on Diwali 2006 (Oct 21) that I was last asked this poser about > the (lack of) expressiveness of English. A precise translation would > use the esoteric term "ordinal rank". Not esoteric: technical. > Following your convention of > writing stressed words in capitals: > What was the ordinal rank of Indira Gandhi's Prime > Ministership of India? Though understandable, this is altogether unidiomatic. Either of the following would be okay: Which Prime Minister of India was Indira Gandhi? Indira Gandhi was which Prime Minister of India? In either case you can add a tag question like 'Which number?', 'Fifth? Tenth?', or the like. If you want to be more formal: Indira Gandhi was which Prime Minister of India in order of succession? I might conceivably ask 'Where does Indira Gandhi fall in the sequence of Prime Ministers of India?', but that's probably influenced by my mathematical background. (Bit of a trick question in her case, though, since the answer seems to be '5th and 8th'.) Brian > On 14 Jan 2007 19:05:32 -0800, "M. Ranjit Mathews" > <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > (Bit of a trick question in her case, though, since the > answer seems to be '5th and 8th'.) Or, considerably more simply, "What number Prime Minister was Indira Gandhi?" (The answer to "Which PM ..." could be, "Hunh? There's only one PM at a time!") On 15 Jan 2007 05:11:13 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in <news:1168866672.915052.59260@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> in soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang: >> On 14 Jan 2007 19:05:32 -0800, "M. Ranjit Mathews" >> <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in >> <news:1168830332.490835.148690@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com> >> in >> soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang: >>> On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote: >>>> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi? >>>> indiayude ethramathe pm anu MANMOHAN SINGH? >>>> Can you translate these from Malayalam to English? >>>> ammu >>> Nalla prasnam, Ammu:-) >>> It was on Diwali 2006 (Oct 21) that I was last asked this poser about >>> the (lack of) expressiveness of English. A precise translation would >>> use the esoteric term "ordinal rank". >> Not esoteric: technical. >>> Following your convention of >>> writing stressed words in capitals: >>> What was the ordinal rank of Indira Gandhi's Prime >>> Ministership of India? >> Though understandable, this is altogether unidiomatic. >> Either of the following would be okay: >> Which Prime Minister of India was Indira Gandhi? >> Indira Gandhi was which Prime Minister of India? >> In either case you can add a tag question like 'Which >> number?', 'Fifth? Tenth?', or the like. If you want to be >> more formal: >> Indira Gandhi was which Prime Minister of India >> in order of succession? >> I might conceivably ask 'Where does Indira Gandhi fall in >> the sequence of Prime Ministers of India?', but that's >> probably influenced by my mathematical background. >> (Bit of a trick question in her case, though, since the >> answer seems to be '5th and 8th'.) > Or, considerably more simply, "What number Prime Minister > was Indira Gandhi?" I didn't offer it because I find it only marginally acceptable. [...] Brian > On 15 Jan 2007 05:11:13 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" > <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > I didn't offer it because I find it only marginally > acceptable. I tried "What number prime minister is our current prime minister?" on a group of about six thirteen-year-olds. They all answered in unison: "She is numero uno!" and refused to accept that that wasn't what I asked. :-) English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) other Germanic ones. pjk > [...] > > Brian > > On 15 Jan 2007 05:11:13 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" > > <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) > other Germanic ones. ?? How is "numero uno." presumably meaning 'the best one we've got', an answer to "what number"? Everyone knows that Washington is number one, and can probably do the first five or six; most people know that Lincoln is number 16, and everyone knows that the current moron is 43, because that's how he's distinguished from the nonentity who was 41 (because they're not Senior and Junior). > > I tried "What number prime minister is our current prime minister?" > > on a group of about six thirteen-year-olds. They all answered > > in unison: "She is numero uno!" and refused to accept that > > that wasn't what I asked. :-) Ha ha! > > English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists > > in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) > > other Germanic ones. > > How is "numero uno." presumably meaning 'the best one we've got', an > answer to "what number"? They didn't understand it as ordinal rank; that's what's funny about it. > Everyone knows that Washington is number one, and can probably do the > first five or six; most people know that Lincoln is number 16, and > everyone knows that the current moron is 43, because that's how he's > distinguished from the nonentity who was 41 (because they're not Senior > and Junior). Moron I & Moron II would be Moroni and Moroneux (with the [I] vowel and deux vowel, respectively:-) On 16 Jan 2007 06:48:49 -0800, "M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in <news:1168958928.516507.111340@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> in soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang: >>> I tried "What number prime minister is our current prime minister?" >>> on a group of about six thirteen-year-olds. They all answered >>> in unison: "She is numero uno!" and refused to accept that >>> that wasn't what I asked. :-) > Ha ha! >>> English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists >>> in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) >>> other Germanic ones. >> How is "numero uno." presumably meaning 'the best one we've got', an >> answer to "what number"? > They didn't understand it as ordinal rank; that's what's funny about > it. You're mistaken. They understood it as ordinal rank on a different scale, ranking by quality rather than by date. >> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, Virtually everyone, yes. >> and can probably do the first five or six; Very doubtful. A fair number could probably produce a list of five or six that had a large intersection with the first five or six, but getting them in the right order is another matter. >> most people know that Lincoln is number 16, Many; I'd not bet on 'most' at all, at all. >> and everyone knows that the current moron is 43, because >> that's how he's distinguished from the nonentity who was >> 41 (because they're not Senior and Junior). Not everyone, no. [...] Brian > On 16 Jan 2007 06:48:49 -0800, "M. Ranjit Mathews" > <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in > >> How is "numero uno." presumably meaning 'the best one we've got', an > >> answer to "what number"? > > They didn't understand it as ordinal rank; that's what's funny about > > it. > You're mistaken. They understood it as ordinal rank on a > different scale, ranking by quality rather than by date. Come to think of it, using Ordinal Rank on someone who knows the term might produce the same response. Perhaps Ordinal Rank wasn't such a good idea; Ordinal Number seems more difficult to understand that as a rank by performance. > On 16 Jan 2007 06:48:49 -0800, "M. Ranjit Mathews" > <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You're mistaken. They understood it as ordinal rank on a > different scale, ranking by quality rather than by date. Come to think of it, using Ordinal Rank on someone who knows the term might produce the same response. Perhaps Ordinal Rank wasn't such a good idea; Ordinal Number seems more difficult to understand as a rank by performance. There's some documentation for computer programs, that use ordinality and sequence number interchangably but set theoreticians would grimace at such usage. All in all, how manyeth or whateth seem better suited to the English speaking masses, than technical terms like Ordinal. In French, ordinal might be a more ordinary term, judging by the fact that a computer is called an ordinateur. > >> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > five or six, but getting them in the right order is another > matter. Except in Chicago, don't street names usually go in order? >>>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Except in Chicago, don't street names usually go in order? Is there any country besides the US that cares about the ordinal number of their heads of state after #1? [crossposting reduced, F'up2 aue set]  SignatureBill Gates working as a waiter: - Waiter, there's a fly in my soup - Try again, maybe it won't be there this time lispamateur@internet.uqam.ca had it: > >>>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Is there any country besides the US that cares about the ordinal number > of their heads of state after #1? All monarchies do, for heads with the same forename. SignatureDavid ===== > lispamateur@internet.uqam.ca had it: > >> Is there any country besides the US that cares about the ordinal number >> of their heads of state after #1? > > All monarchies do, for heads with the same forename. Three of "our" earliest emperors are usually known as Charles the Great, Charles the Bald and Charles the Fat. I don't know their numbers. SignatureSkyler: Uncle Cosmo ... why do they call this a word processor? Cosmo: It's simple, Skyler ... you've seen what food processors do to food, right? Cartoon by Jeff MacNelley > >>>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Is there any country besides the US that cares about the ordinal number > of their heads of state after #1? Would there be mnemonic poems for remembering the kings and queens of England if not? Are schoolchildren in other "nations" not expected to know the names and order of their rulers? > [crossposting reduced, F'up2 aue set] [repaired] > Are schoolchildren in other "nations" not expected to know the names > and order of their rulers? Australian children learn the name of our first Prime Minister after federation. Once they leave school they forget it again. They're only politicians, after all. Some of them have had a major impact on the world (Adolf Hitler comes to mind), but most are insignificant when compared with, for example, Nobel Laureates in Physics. Our present leader will be remembered mostly for screwing up the economy and for getting us bogged down in the Iraq quagmire. I suspect that his shade will breathe a sigh of relief when people finally forget his name. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > > >>>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, > > >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Are schoolchildren in other "nations" not expected to know the names > and order of their rulers? Very much so. :-( Some of the early kings and princes were quite likely to have been crowned and deposed several times in their life. However, I don't think they are commonly memorized together with their ordinal numbers. There is always the risk of some new discovery adding or removing one of the ruling periods in the more distant history. Some countries keep careful track of the ordinal numbers of their republics though. pjk >> >>>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, >> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Are schoolchildren in other "nations" not expected to know the names >and order of their rulers? One of the housemates in the cuurent Celebrity Big Brother show (UK) when asked the quiz question "Who was Winston Churchill - a rapper, US President, the Prime Minister or King?", answered "Wasn't he the first black president of America? There's a statue of him near me - that's black........ >> [crossposting reduced, F'up2 aue set] > >[repaired] SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [...] > > Is there any country besides the US that cares about the ordinal number > > of their heads of state after #1? > > Would there be mnemonic poems for remembering the kings and queens of > England if not? Which raises the question whether the "Willie, Willie, Harry, Ste. . ." thing was taught as a useful framework on which to hang some history, or as though it was in some way significant in itself. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>>>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Would there be mnemonic poems for remembering the kings and queens of > England if not? Presumably, they stem from a time when such knowledge was thought useful for school purposes (non vitae sed scholae discimus!). > Are schoolchildren in other "nations" not expected to know the names > and order of their rulers? I would be hard-pressed to name the handfull of presidents or chancellors my young country had in 60 years, in any order. When I went to school in the 70s, remembering names of leaders or dates of battles was considered hopelessly obsolete(*). (*) Is this combination idiomatic in English? SignatureThere are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies. And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult. -- C. A. R. Hoare > >>>>>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, > >>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > (*) Is this combination idiomatic in English? Yes -- that phrase is fine. You're younger than me, but I'm young enough that I didn't have to memorize vast quantities of English poetry, as previous generations did. But we did do names and dates. On 16 Jan 2007 14:56:23 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in <news:1168988179.319952.280790@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com> in soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang: >>>> Everyone knows that Washington is number one, >> Virtually everyone, yes. >>>> and can probably do the first five or six; >> Very doubtful. A fair number could probably produce a list >> of five or six that had a large intersection with the first >> five or six, but getting them in the right order is another >> matter. > Except in Chicago, don't street names usually go in order? Like Lakeside, St. Clair, Superior, Payne, Chester, Euclid, Prospect, Carnegie, Cedar, Central, Community College, Woodland? Or Lee, Coventry, South Taylor, Warrensville Center, Green, Richmond, Brainard, Lander, S.O.M. Center? Or Mayfield, Cedar, Fairmount, Shaker? Brian > On 16 Jan 2007 14:56:23 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" > <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Center, Green, Richmond, Brainard, Lander, S.O.M. Center? > Or Mayfield, Cedar, Fairmount, Shaker? I don't see a single president's name in any of your three lists, so I can't imagine what you think you're trying to prove. > > > On 15 Jan 2007 05:11:13 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" > > > <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > How is "numero uno." presumably meaning 'the best one we've got', an > answer to "what number"? Well, yeah. But as I said, they refused to accept that that wasn't what I asked. As far as they were concerned, the answer to "what number?" was "number one" or "number two" or something like that. > Everyone knows that Washington is number one, and can probably do the > first five or six; most people know that Lincoln is number 16, and > everyone knows that the current moron is 43, because that's how he's > distinguished from the nonentity who was 41 (because they're not Senior > and Junior). Everyone in your country perhaps. I suspect that none of those six in the street would have even known which country had anybody by that name serving in any place of importance. pjk > I tried "What number prime minister is our current prime > minister?"on a group of about six thirteen-year-olds. They all [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > exists in many other European languages, including AFAIK > (some/all?) other Germanic ones. This, in my opinion, is a case where a speaker of one language with a particular feature feels a lack in a foreign language without it. In this context, "how many" does just fine, I believe, for native speakers of English: "How many presidents has the United States had before George W. Bush?" "Forty-two." "George W. Bush is the 43rd president of the United States." Admittedly, those who become familiar with a highly inflected language enjoy observing the freedom of word order and other features of that language which express fine subtleties, especially in the works of talented native writers and poets. English, however, even without "George W. Bush is the how manyeth president of the United States?" has done spendidly in expressing every though that comes to man, as the league of giants of English literature have demonstrated to the whole world. Regards, ----- WB. > English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists > in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) > other Germanic ones. Initially, "how manyeth" seemed odd. On reflection, the Tamil and Malayalam terms translate well into "how manyeth", so it all of a sudden doesn't seem odd. Spoken Tamil: [etna]= how many [etnAvadu]= how manyeth Spoken Malayalam: [etra]= how many [etrAmatte]= how manyeth How is it currently done in a Germanic language? (I can't use a translator to find out 'coz there's no way to word it in English) >> English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists >> in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > How is it currently done in a Germanic language? (I can't use a > translator to find out 'coz there's no way to word it in English) In German it's "Der wievielte Premierminister war M. Thatcher ?" (The how manyeth PM was MT ?) Cheers, Michael Kuettner >>> English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists >>> in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "Der wievielte Premierminister war M. Thatcher ?" > (The how manyeth PM was MT ?) Maybe "howmanyeth" just happens to be missing from English because a single word meaning "how many" (German "wieviel") is missing and the -th suffix doesn't lend itself to attaching it to a group of words (unlike, e.g., 's)? [Crossposting reduced] SignatureBug: An elusive creature living in a program that makes it incorrect. The activity of "debugging," or removing bugs from a program, ends when people get tired of doing it, not when the bugs are removed. > Maybe "howmanyeth" just happens to be missing from English because a > single word meaning "how many" (German "wieviel") is missing and the -th > suffix doesn't lend itself to attaching it to a group of words (unlike, > e.g., 's)? But is it missing? Although it's missing from the OED, Google turns up uses of both "how manyeth" (as two words) and "howmanyeth" (as a single word) -- and they aren't all from Finnegans Wake, either. If it isn't a word of the standard language as such, it is at least an repeatedly recoined nonce word. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > > English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists > > in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Malayalam terms translate well into "how manyeth", so it all of a > sudden doesn't seem odd. But of course. There are many languages in which the equivalent of "howmanyeth" is a quite frequently used common word which (unlike the English "ordinal" or "rank") everybody learns to use in their early childhood. > Spoken Tamil: > [etna]= how many [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > How is it currently done in a Germanic language? (I can't use a > translator to find out 'coz there's no way to word it in English) Ha ha! Try to use Tamil-to-German translator. pjk > > English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists > > in many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Malayalam terms translate well into "how manyeth", so it all of a > sudden doesn't seem odd. But of course. There are many languages in which the equivalent of "howmanyeth" is a quite frequently used common word which (unlike the English "ordinal" or "rank") everybody learns to use in their early childhood. > Spoken Tamil: > [etna]= how many [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > How is it currently done in a Germanic language? (I can't use a > translator to find out 'coz there's no way to word it in English) Ha ha! You must try direct Tamil-to-German translator. :-) You should get something like "wiefielte" which means exactly "how manyeth". pjk > > On 15 Jan 2007 05:11:13 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" > > <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > > > Brian The problem about assigning numbers to a PM is that you get caught in the trap that the PM may have been in office several times that the position becomes a bit meaningless as opposed to say a presidential system like Mexico which seems to only allow one term or like the USA which seems to only allow one or two consecutive terms. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada On 16 Jan 2007 11:17:52 -0800, John Kane <jrkrideau@gmail.com> wrote in <news:1168975072.830550.245980@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> in soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.kerala,alt.usage.english,sci.lang: [...] > The problem about assigning numbers to a PM is that you get caught in > the trap that the PM may have been in office several times that the > position becomes a bit meaningless as opposed to say a presidential > system like Mexico which seems to only allow one term or like the USA > which seems to only allow one or two consecutive terms. Franklin D. Roosevelt was elected to four terms and served three and a bit before he died, but the 22nd amendment, effective from 1951, now limits one to a maximum of two terms. They needn't be consecutive, though I believe that Grover Cleveland is the only person to have served non-consecutive terms. Brian > On 16 Jan 2007 11:17:52 -0800, John Kane > <jrkrideau@gmail.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Grover Cleveland is the only person to have served > non-consecutive terms. The Constitution was amended in the early 1950s to prohibit anyone being elected president more than twice. (This was a Republican measure, and they really screwed themselves because both Eisenhower and Reagan would easily have been elected to a third term.) John Kane: >> The problem about assigning numbers to a PM is that you get caught in >> the trap that the PM may have been in office several times that the >> position becomes a bit meaningless as opposed to say a presidential >> system like Mexico which seems to only allow one term or like the USA >> which seems to only allow one or two consecutive terms. In Canada we don't usually refer to prime ministers by sequence number, but when it is done, we count people, not terms. So far we've had (in order) Macdonald, Mackenzie, Macdonald again, Abbott, Thompson, Bowell, Tupper, Laurier, Borden, Meighen, King, Meighen, King again, Bennett, King again, Laurent, Diefenbaker, Pearson, Trudeau, Clark, Trudeau again, Turner, Mulroney, Campbell, Chretien, Martin, and Harper, and Harper is counted as the 22nd. Brian Scott: > Franklin D. Roosevelt was elected to four terms and served three > and a bit before he died, but the 22nd amendment, effective from > 1951, now limits one to a maximum of two terms. They needn't be > consecutive, though I believe that Grover Cleveland is the only > person to have served non-consecutive terms. Correct. The US state department has declared an official numbering in which Cleveland counts twice and the other multi-term presidents once again; in other words, each change of president increments the count. There are, of course, still other possibilities. One could count elections; one could count both elections and changes of leader between elections. Followups directed, somewhat arbitrarily, to alt.usage.english. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Pleasant dreams!" msb@vex.net | "I'll dream of Canada." -- THE SUSPECT My text in this article is in the public domain. The Mark Brader entity posted thusly: >John Kane: >>> The problem about assigning numbers to a PM is that you get caught in >>> the trap that the PM may have been in office several times that the >>> position becomes a bit meaningless as opposed to say a presidential >>> system like Mexico which seems to only allow one term or like the USA >>> which seems to only allow one or two consecutive terms. Two terms, I think, and nothing is specified as to consecutive or not. >In Canada we don't usually refer to prime ministers by sequence number, >but when it is done, we count people, not terms. So far we've had (in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Turner, Mulroney, Campbell, Chretien, Martin, and Harper, and Harper is >counted as the 22nd. Interesting. I gather you refer to Louis St-Laurent. If asked, I would have said his last name was St-Laurent, not just Laurent. Is this a French vs. English thing? > The Mark Brader entity posted thusly: > >> John Kane: >>>> The problem about assigning numbers to a PM is that you get >>>> caught in the trap that the PM may have been in office several >>>> times [...] >> In Canada we don't usually refer to prime ministers by sequence >> number, but when it is done, we count people, not terms. So far [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Is this a French vs. English thing? Nah. Yeah. Probably. The English should be like the French: "Saint-Laurent", but billions and billions of hits say otherwise. If you look for official websites, though, like the government and the CBC, they spell it the way l'oncle Louis would have wanted. > The Mark Brader entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Two terms, I think, and nothing is specified as to consecutive or not. Getting very technical, no person may be *elected* president more than twice, and a person who has served more than two years of another president's unexpired term may be elected only once. So it is technically possible for a person to serve more than two terms as President, but not by election, only by succession. It seems extremely unlikely for any former President to regain the office through succession -- to do so would require holding a lower office after leaving the Presidency, e.g. Vice President. Signaturejosh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam <http://www.phred.org/~josh/> Braze your own bicycle frames. See <http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html> > > Two terms, I think, and nothing is specified as to consecutive or > > not. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > office through succession -- to do so would require holding a lower > office after leaving the Presidency, e.g. Vice President. Why, haven't you heard that Clinton's coming back? He'll run as Hillary's VP, then after victory she'll step aside immediately. I heard it on the interweb, so it must be true. Of course, I also read a reasoned discourse about how Hillary is ineligle to become President, as her husband already was elected twice and husband and wife are considered the same person under the law. I'm not sure yet how to reconcile these seemingly contradictory things, but no doubt there is an reasonable explanation. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> Getting very technical, no person may be elected president more >> than twice, and a person who has served more than two years of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Hillary's VP, then after victory she'll step aside immediately. I > heard it on the interweb, so it must be true. That first came up (at times as a serious proposal) after Reagan's second term. I don't recall if it was ever decided whether it would have been legal or not. The 22nd amendment says "No person shall be elected president more than twice", but he would only have been elected twice as president and once as vice president. On the other hand, the 12th amendment says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President". So the question was whether not being able to be elected to the office made you "ineligible to the the office". Then there was the argument that said that, yes he would be ineligible under the 12th amendment, but that that only meant that the electoral college couldn't choose him. But if the vice president resigned, then the 25th amendment allowed the president to appoint him vice president, and then the president could resign, at which point he would become president. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |holding a gun to somebody's head. Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law. |If you don't pay your taxes, you'll kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine, (650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to |escape from jail, you'll be shot. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke > > Why, haven't you heard that Clinton's coming back? He'll run as > > Hillary's VP, then after victory she'll step aside immediately. I > > heard it on the interweb, so it must be true. > > That first came up (at times as a serious proposal) after Reagan's > second term. I first heard it in a joking manner about Nixon, in a comic strip. It could have been Doonesbury, but I'm not sure. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> ... Macdonald, Mackenzie, Macdonald again, Abbott, Thompson, Bowell, >> Tupper, Laurier, Borden, Meighen, King, Meighen, King again, Bennett, >> King again, Laurent ... > Interesting. I gather you refer to Louis St-Laurent. If asked, I would > have said his last name was St-Laurent, not just Laurent. > > Is this a French vs. English thing? No, it's an editing error. I missed the one two-word surname on the list when :%s//.* /ing the given names away. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | sed -e "s;??\\([-=(/)'<!>]\\);?\\\\?\\1;g" msb@vex.net | will fix them... -- Karl Heuer > > Interesting. I gather you refer to Louis St-Laurent. If asked, I would > > have said his last name was St-Laurent, not just Laurent. > > > > Is this a French vs. English thing? > > No, it's an editing error. I missed the one two-word surname ... Oh, the two-word surname was "St. Laurent". The use of a hyphen is French. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "We did not try to keep writing until msb@vex.net | things got full." --Dennis Ritchie The Mark Brader entity posted thusly: >> > Interesting. I gather you refer to Louis St-Laurent. If asked, I would >> > have said his last name was St-Laurent, not just Laurent. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Oh, the two-word surname was "St. Laurent". The use of a hyphen is French. Ahh. I remembered the St. Laurent spelling, but when I did a quick google on lists of prime ministers, all the hits I looked at used the hyphen. When I was a lad, I thought it was probably spelled "Sanleraw". >>> Interesting. I gather you refer to Louis St-Laurent. If asked, I >>> would have said his last name was St-Laurent, not just Laurent. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Oh, the two-word surname was "St. Laurent". The use of a hyphen is > French. Donc, en français t'es Marc Bras-d'or? C. De Bellehumeur Mark Brader: > > Oh, the two-word surname was "St. Laurent". The use of a hyphen is > > French. C.D.B.: > Donc, en français t'es Marc Bras-d'or? Eh bien, définiment pas Brador. Je ne bois pas de bière. SignatureMark Brader "I cannot reply in French, but I will Toronto type English very slowly and loudly." msb@vex.net --Lars Eighner > Mark Brader: >>> Oh, the two-word surname was "St. Laurent". The use of a hyphen [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Eh bien, définiment pas Brador. Je ne bois pas de bière. Moi non plus, generally. That one was my choice when out pubbing with friends, because the higher alcohol content made it taste better faster. And in those days, Transpondians, Canadian beer all tasted the same. Paul J Kriha filted: >I tried "What number prime minister is our current prime minister?" >on a group of about six thirteen-year-olds. They all answered >in unison: "She is numero uno!" and refused to accept that >that wasn't what I asked. :-) This is quite obviously wrong...she's a *prime* minister, and "one" is by definition not a prime number....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >>>>> On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote: >>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi? >>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm anu MANMOHAN SINGH? >>>>>> Can you translate these from Malayalam to English? >>>>>> ammu > English definitely needs "manyeth" the equivalent of which exists in > many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) other > Germanic ones. The only times I've ever needed such a word are when someone like Ammu asks a question like the above. On a list of what we need, a word like this comes a long way behind world peace or softer toilet paper. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > >>>>> On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote: > >>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > many other European languages, including AFAIK (some/all?) other > > Germanic ones. > The only times I've ever needed such a word are when someone like Ammu > asks a question like the above. On a list of what we need, a word like > this comes a long way behind world peace or softer toilet paper. World peace, if you mean the absence of conflicts and fighting, is a nice objective but is not possible in the Kalyug*. And as far as toilet paper is concerned, so you prefer it to washing? *The Kalyug All kings occupying the Earth in the Kaliyug will be wanting in tranquility, strong in anger, taking pleasure at all times in lying and dishonesty, inflicting death on women, children and cows, prone to take the paltry possessions of others, with character that is mostly Tamas, rising to power and soon falling. They will be short-lived, ambitious, of little virtue and greedy. People will follow the customs of others and be adulterated with them; peculiar, undisciplined barbarians will be vigorously supported by the rulers. Because they go on living with perversion, they will be ruined. The destruction of the world will occur because of the departure from virtue and profit, little by little, day by day. Money alone will confer nobility. Power will be the sole definition of virtue. Pleasure will be the only reason for marriage. Lust will be the only reason for womanhood. Falsehood will win out in disputes. Being dry of water will be the only definition of land. The sacred thread alone will distinguish Brahmins. Praiseworthiness will be measured by accumulated wealth. Wearing the Linga will be sufficient cause for religious retreat. Impropriety will be considered good conduct, and only feebleness will be the reason for unemployment. Boldness and arrogance will become equivalent to scholarship. Only those without wealth will show honesty. Just a bath will amount to purification, and charity will be the only virtue. Abduction will be marriage. Simply to be well-dressed will signify propriety. And any water hard to reach will be deemed a pilgrimage site. The pretense of greatness will be the proof of it, and powerful men with many severe faults will rule over all the classes on earth. Oppressed by their excessively greedy rulers, people will hide in valleys between mountains where they will gather honey, vegetables, roots, fruits, flowers and so forth. Suffering from cold, wind, heat and rain, they will put on clothes made of tree- bark and leaves. And no one will live as long as twenty- three years. Thus in the Kaliyug, humankind will be utterly destroyed. Excerpt from a translation of the Vishnu Puraan by Cornelia Dimmitt and J.A.B.van Buitenen. Jai Maharaj http://tinyurl.com/yhjyp5 http://www.mantra.com/jai Om Shanti > >>>>> On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote: > >>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > this comes a long way behind world peace or softer toilet paper. > Peter Moylan True, English largely circumvents the need for "how manyeth" with phrases like "which date is it today?" pjk > > >>>>> On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote: > > >>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > True, English largely circumvents the need for "how manyeth" with > phrases like "which date is it today?" ":What's today's date?" ("Which day is it today?" is how you ask if it's Wednesday.) > > > >>>>> On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote: > > > >>>>>> indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > True, English largely circumvents the need for "how manyeth" with > > phrases like "which date is it today?" > ":What's today's date?" > > ("Which day is it today?" is how you ask if it's Wednesday.) There are many variations in use: What's the date today? What's today, the 17th? What's today? (Can refer to day of the week or date.) Oh no, today's what? (Obviously concerned about a due date.) Jai Maharaj http://tinyurl.com/yhjyp5 http://www.mantra.com/jai Om Shanti Reminds me of my childhood in India when we went to see a Tamil movie called "Petralthan Pillaiya?" A friend wanted to know what the title meant in English! We were at a loss to come up with a translation... Is there an easy, simple translation?! - gsn > On 14 Jan 2007 19:05:32 -0800, "M. Ranjit Mathews" > <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Brian > Reminds me of my childhood in India when we went to see a Tamil movie > called "Petralthan Pillaiya?" A friend wanted to know what the title > meant in English! We were at a loss to come up with a translation... > Is there an easy, simple translation?! Maybe; what's the difficult, complicated translation? > Reminds me of my childhood in India when we went to see a Tamil movie > called "Petralthan Pillaiya?" A friend wanted to know what the title > meant in English! We were at a loss to come up with a translation... > Is there an easy, simple translation?! [pet.ra] (adj) = that which is given birth to [Al.] = person [t[An] = only [pil.l.E_]* = child [j] = epenthetic semivowel [A] = question marker <?> Not strictly necessary since [A] indicates a question Literally, it means "Is only a person given birth to a child?" but would tend to imply: Can only one's own issue be regarded as one's child? * <aI> is morpheme-terminally pronounced as retracted [E] like in French chaise. > On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote: > > indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi? . . . > It was on Diwali 2006 (Oct 21) that I was last asked this poser about > the (lack of) expressiveness of English. A precise translation would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What was the ordinal rank of Indira Gandhi's Prime Ministership of > India? The translation seems more exotic (foreign) than esoteric (highly abstract, high-falutin.) It was noticed long ago that English has no standard word to ask "what is the ordinal rank of?" or "how manyeth?" and some other languages have such a word. But it is notoriously rare in Europe cf. > http://www.answers.com/topic/ordinal SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) Munglish (my name for English) is severely lacking in a number of respects. When it comes to asking questions of the type being discussed in this thread, I simply ask, for instance: Example 1: George W. Bush is the 43rd president of the US, who was the fifth? Example 2: George W. Bush is the 43rd president of the US, what about George Washington? Example 3: Who were the third and seventh presidents of the US? Such is Munglish. Jai Maharaj http://tinyurl.com/yhjyp5 http://www.mantra.com/jai Om Shanti > > On Sunday 14 January 2007 05:39, Ammu wrote: > > > indiayude ethramathe pm ayirunnu indira gandi? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What was the ordinal rank of Indira Gandhi's Prime Ministership of > > India? > The translation seems more exotic (foreign) than esoteric > (highly abstract, high-falutin.) It was noticed long ago that > English has no standard word to ask "what is the ordinal > rank of?" or "how manyeth?" and some other languages > have such a word. But it is notoriously rare in Europe cf. > > http://www.answers.com/topic/ordinal > Munglish (my name for English) is severely lacking > in a number of respects. When it comes to asking [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > http://www.mantra.com/jai > Om Shanti Is "Ordinally speaking, which president was Jimmy Carter?" too awkward? Randall Coleman > www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj) posted: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Is "Ordinally speaking, which president was Jimmy Carter?" too awkward? > Randall Coleman It probably wouldn't be in Bharat where the British Munglish taught usually results in people using extraordinary words for the sake of using them, but here in the US they typical reaction would be: "Huh?" Once I came to the US I had to try to simplify the Munglish down to Americanese, or shall I say "American-ease". Jai Maharaj http://tinyurl.com/yhjyp5 http://www.mantra.com/jai Om Shanti > Munglish (my name for English) is severely lacking > in a number of respects. Niilo the real Prophet for Jai: http://www.ilmatar.net/~np/gbook/index.php?board=4.0 > It was noticed long ago that > English has no standard word to ask "what is the ordinal > rank of?" or "how manyeth?" and some other languages > have such a word. But it is notoriously rare in Europe As my native language (Finnish) happens to have such a standard word "monesko" or "kuinka mones", I have always been puzzled by the fact that there is no easy way to convey that idea in the other languages I know. When I was learning German, I was pleasantly surprised to find out that German has "der wievielte". > > It was noticed long ago that > > English has no standard word to ask "what is the ordinal [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that there is no easy way to convey that idea in the other languages I > know. Isn't Finnish surrounded by languages most of which have the exact equivalent expression? pjk > When I was learning German, I was pleasantly surprised to find > out that German has "der wievielte". > > > It was noticed long ago that > > > English has no standard word to ask "what is the ordinal [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Isn't Finnish surrounded by languages most of which have > the exact equivalent expression? Not really. In Swedish, "hur m?ngte" (hur m?nga = how many) is perceived as a Finnicism. It is part of careless everyday talk among the Swedish speakers in Finland, but they are advised not to use it in written language. >> <phoglund@abo.fi> wrote in message >news:1169107391.686457.57230@11g2>000cwr.googlegroups.com... > >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >the Swedish speakers in Finland, but they are advised not to use it in >written language. Okay, I was thinking, for example, of German, and all Slavic and Baltic languages. You said "howmanyeth" was "notoriously rare in Europe". My impression was that languages without some kind of "howmanyeth" were the ones that were rarer in Europe. pjk P.S. Blast... we've said "rare" several times. It's not my fault, I have to do a Bart: "I didn't do it!" Paul J Kriha kirjoitti: > >> <phoglund@abo.fi> wrote in message >news:1169107391.686457.57230@11g2>000cwr.googlegroups.com... > > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > My impression was that languages without some kind of "howmanyeth" > were the ones that were rarer in Europe. Well, of course all have some way to express it, but often an awkward way. I wasn't quite sure about Polish, and checked "der wievielte" in my Langenscheidt German-Polish dictionary - and it only gave "który". >Paul J Kriha kirjoitti: >> >> <phoglund@abo.fi> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >way. I wasn't quite sure about Polish, and checked "der wievielte" in >my Langenscheidt German-Polish dictionary - and it only gave "który". You never looked into any grammar books for chapters discussing ordinal expressions and for most of the European languages you haven't looked into any reference books at all. And yet you said "notoriously rare in Europe". pjk > >Paul J Kriha kirjoitti: > >> >> <phoglund@abo.fi> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > most of the European languages you haven't > looked into any reference books at all. Oh come on. Due to the fact that it is such a salient feature in my native language, I have always been forced to look for it in dictionaries, grammars and everywhere. And the fact is that I have been left with the impression that in those blasted Indo-European languages there is always some stupid circumlocution. The reason why I mentioned Polish was, that I hadn't been speaking it for some time and couldn't be sure how it is done there. Anyway, it might be I have picked up the wrong languages to study, but as long as my reference books are correct, German is the only language I have studied which does have a special word for "how manyeth". > Oh come on. Due to the fact that it is such a salient feature in my > native language, I have always been forced to look for it in > dictionaries, grammars and everywhere. > as long as my reference books are correct, German is the only language > I have studied which does have a special word for "how manyeth". >From an SOV 1st language bias, German also has a pleasing degree of SOV expressability. >> <phoglund@abo.fi> wrote in message >news:1169224923.808812.15800@s34g>2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > >Paul J Kriha kirjoitti:> > >> phoglund@abo.f>i> wrote in message news:1169195104.24>8816.124500@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... [...] > >>Well, of course all have some way to express it, but often an awkward > >>way. I wasn't quite sure about Polish, and checked "der wievielte" in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >as long as my reference books are correct, German is the only language >I have studied which does have a special word for "how manyeth". Right. My "luck" went the other way. As a child I learned Czech and while living in a bilingual country I passively learned to understand Slovak. Later in primary and secondary schools I learned German and Russian. So it wasn't until I was twenty six/twenty seven, when I started to learn English, that I hit upon a language with no "howmanyeth". pjk > >> <phoglund@abo.fi> wrote in message >news:1169224923.808812.15800@s34g>2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > >Paul J Kriha kirjoitti:> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > six/twenty seven, when I started to learn English, that I hit > upon a language with no "howmanyeth". I see. But is there really a special word for it in Russian? I always thought Russian relies on "kotoryi", i.e. "which?" - as Polish on "który". My Czech is very limited, although I can read a newspaper in Czech and Slovak, at least with the help of a dictionary. How do you do it in Czech, then? >> <phoglund@abo.fi> wrote in message >news:1169328397.796921.146850@s34>g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >Czech and Slovak, at least with the help of a dictionary. How do you do >it in Czech, then? Czech "který" is an equivalent of the Polish "który" you mentioned. It is an approximate equivalent of English "which one". I say "approximate" because "který" is grammatically more specific. Singular - masc. "který", fem. "která", neut. "které" Plural - masc. animate human "kter^í", rest of masc. "které", fem. "které", neut. "která" "kolik" without any suffixes and prepositions is an equivalent of English "how many" or "how much". "kolikátý" is an equivalent to "how manyeth" with the same system of declensions for number and gender as in "který". "kolikadenní" is "how many times a day" "kolikpak" is literally "haw many then?" (usually occurs in questions as a more demanding/impatient version of "kolik") "kolikrát" is "howmanytimes" "koliksetkrát" is "howmanyhundredsoftimes" "kolikerý" is "howmany(pairs)". This is used with frequently occuring pluralia tantums of pairs. For example "How many pairs of shoes do you have?". In Czech you don't mention "pairs of", also there is no need for an auxiliary verb and since the second person singular is clear from the verb there is no need for a pronoun "you", so the Czech question is "kolikery más boty?". Depending on the prosodic sentence stress, these three words can occur in several different orders. pjk >>> <phoglund@abo.fi> wrote in message >news:1169224923.808812.15800@s34g>2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> >Paul J Kriha kirjoitti:> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >six/twenty seven, when I started to learn English, that I hit >upon a language with no "howmanyeth". If I understand right, we have two words for this: "nth" and "umpteenth". Like: "Tell me again how you got that ring?" "For the umpteenth time! -- I found the bloody thing on the street!" Nth is more mathematical in nature, and can be used something like a variable. Is that of any help? Padraic. >pjk SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > As a child I learned > Czech and while living in a bilingual country I passively learned > to understand Slovak. Later in primary and secondary schools > I learned German and Russian. So it wasn't until I was twenty > six/twenty seven, when I started to learn English, that I hit > upon a language with no "howmanyeth". In at least one of these languages, can you ask "By age at assuming office, what is the ordinal rank of Reagan's presidency?" In my Malayalam: <presid.ensi tud.angunna samayatol.l.a pra:yam ansariccu r.e:gan etra:mate: presid.enta:n.a>? > > As a child I learned Czech > > and while living in a bilingual country I passively learned [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > In my Malayalam: <presid.ensi tud.angunna samayatol.l.a pra:yam > ansariccu r.e:gan etra:mate: presid.enta:n.a>? f.ck you and f.ck your fuckin' Malayalam, Rancid Dipshit. Jesus Christ Almighty, you -- the most boooooring of all boring posters -- have cross-posted some hundred-odd posts in several threads to <alt.usage.english>, a newsgroup not interested in your boooooring sh.t about esoteric Sanskrit, Hindi, Tamil, or Malayalam phonetics and phonemics or /n./ or /s[/ or whatever else you boring bastard keep inflicting on totally inappropriate groups. Your attention-seeking tactics are obvious, but too many otherwise smart guys fall for your tricks: Whenever <sci.lang>ers get bored with your boring crap, you drag in a different topic or language or -- especially -- ask questions, so that some other lonely or helpful soul will get suckered in to respond, which in turn gives you yet another chance to drop more Dravidian dung into these newsgroups by asking yet another stupid question, ad nauseam. Can't you find a woman, boyfriend, camel, or sheep in Real Life to spice up and enrich your dreadfully boring life and to keep you out of most newsgroups, you inconsiderate, lonely, boooooring son-of-a-bitch? Stop cross-posting your boring sh.t to AUE! Q: Das wievielte Arschloch in <sci.lang> ist dieser langweilige Scheißkerl "Rancid Dipshit"? A: Das erste. Reinhold (Rey) Aman M A L E D I C T A Santa Rosa, CA 95402 USA http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/aman.html > > > As a child I learned Czech > > > and while living in a bilingual country I passively learned [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Your attention-seeking tactics are obvious, but too many otherwise > smart guys fall for your tricks: I'm interested in seeing how it can be expressed in one other language. > Whenever <sci.lang>ers get bored > with your boring crap, you drag in a different topic or language > Stop cross-posting your boring sh.t to AUE! Sorry; the thread has become off-topic to AUE, so I should have reduced the distribution. In alt.usage.english "Reinhold (Rey) Aman" <aman@sonic.net> wrote: ... } phonemics or /n./ or /s[/ or whatever else you boring bastard keep } inflicting on totally inappropriate groups. Dr. Aman, scholar of verbal aggression that he is, knows full well that that can't be used in the singular in English, though it can be used in the plural and can be used in the singular in Bavarian and other Germans. I'd suggest that he's just doing it to needle me, but that would trigger STS ("You're so vain") in so many people that I wouldn't dare. ... } Q: Das wievielte Arschloch in <sci.lang> ist } dieser langweilige Scheißkerl "Rancid Dipshit"? } A: Das erste. But can you ask it three times fast? } Reinhold (Rey) Aman } M A L E D I C T A } Santa Rosa, CA 95402 } USA } http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/aman.html Oh, I forgot to mention that my copy of Dr. Aman's Insult Calendar has now resurfaced and is perched in a place of honor right next to my trusty old (blue) _20,000 Words_ Third edition (Copyright, 1951, 1942, 1934, by The Gregg Publishing Company). Every true contributor to alt.usage.english should have a personal copy of at least that, if not a complete set of _Maledicta_ and a hardbound copy of the B-O SWB. Signaturerjv > > As a child I learned > > Czech and while living in a bilingual country I passively learned > > to understand Slovak. Later in primary and secondary schools > > I learned German and Russian. So it wasn't until I was twenty > > six/twenty seven, when I started to learn English, that I hit > > upon a language with no "howmanyeth". "Umpteenth" and "nth" aren't question words, so they don't serve as "howmanyth." (I don't know why you've all been spelling that with an e.) > In at least one of these languages, can you ask "By age at assuming > office, what is the ordinal rank of Reagan's presidency?" "Who was the oldest president?" Reagan. (McCain would be older.) "Who was the youngest president?" T. Roosevelt. ""Who was the youngest elected president?" Kennedy. "Which president lived the longest?" Ford. > > > As a child I learned > > > Czech and while living in a bilingual country I passively learned [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "Umpteenth" and "nth" aren't question words, so they don't serve as > "howmanyth." Agreed. > (I don't know why you've all been spelling that with an e.) I don't know why other people do it but I spelled it that way because the few times I've heard people come up with this artificial word they pronounced it as if it had an e in it. > > In at least one of these languages, can you ask "By age at assuming > > office, what is the ordinal rank of Reagan's presidency?" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Who was the youngest elected president?" Kennedy. > "Which president lived the longest?" Ford. I don't quite understand Ranjit's problem. Why would any modern language have a problem with that particular question? Many listeners might have problems understanding it but that's another story. Be it as it may, in all languages I am familiar with people are much more likely to ask more-or-less literal translations of questions as suggested by Peter. pjk >have such a word. But it is notoriously rare in Europe cf. >> http://www.answers.com/topic/ordinal Rare? daniel mcgrath SignatureDaniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende": for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com" Developmentally disabled; has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder), Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, & periodic bouts of depression. [This signature is under construction.] |
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