 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Egg lime research
Some foods or drinks seem to just blend together to produce a new flavour like pork sausage and beans or mango and orange. In some combinations, one flavour seems to predominate however much you try to adjust the proportions; adding lemonade or lime juice to beer seems to produce a lemonade or lime drink however small the addition is. Yet other combinations seem to retain their separate flavours: try to describe beer and tomato juice - it basically tastes of beer and tomato juice with no blending. Whether in combination or not, there are a number of foods and drinks that are never on my menu. I don't drink cocoa or eat semolina because I know from experience that I don't like them. On the other hand, many people will refuse to even try something because somehow they "know" without tasting that it is disgusting, or possibly it was something they had as a child, and they don't consider that their tastes may have changed since. Whenever I see, hear or read someone extolling a food/drink (so long as it's not someone with an interest in selling it), I do feel I should give it at least one try. So, it was in this spirit that I approached fried egg with lime pickle for breakfast this morning. I fried the egg so it was just hard, but with a small amount of runny yolk. I used my favourite lime pickle, the one that tastes almost sweet with curry. I enclosed the result in an off-white-bread sandwich with a little salt and pepper*. I found the pickle tasted sort of bitter, while the egg had almost no flavour. Result: if someone ever offers me a fried egg and lime pickle muffin or sandwich in future, I won't say "ugh", but I don't think I'll be making one for myself again. * I always have white pepper with egg. In fact, I think that's the only reason I have white pepper in the house.  SignatureRob Bannister > Some foods or drinks seem to just blend together to produce a new > flavour like pork sausage and beans or mango and orange. I had to check newsgroups to see if I was reading rec.food.cooking. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >>Some foods or drinks seem to just blend together to produce a new >>flavour like pork sausage and beans or mango and orange. > > I had to check newsgroups to see if I was reading rec.food.cooking. Um, maybe you don't read aue all that often. Now, about the music that sheep like... SignatureRob Bannister > > > Some foods or drinks seem to just blend together to produce a new > > > flavour like pork sausage and beans or mango and orange. > > > > I had to check newsgroups to see if I was reading rec.food.cooking. > > Um, maybe you don't read aue all that often. Ha ha. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >* I always have white pepper with egg. In fact, I think that's the only >reason I have white pepper in the house. Normally (not necessarily for you), white pepper is used to season white sauces, as black pepper flecks in your Bechamel are considered a no-no. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>* I always have white pepper with egg. In fact, I think that's the only >>reason I have white pepper in the house. > > Normally (not necessarily for you), white pepper is used to season > white sauces, as black pepper flecks in your Bechamel are considered > a no-no. Agreed. That's probably why it's always been known as "white sauce" in my family. SignatureRob Bannister > Some foods or drinks seem to just blend together to produce a new > flavour like pork sausage and beans or mango and orange. In some [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > * I always have white pepper with egg. In fact, I think that's the only > reason I have white pepper in the house. I thought this was going to be a development from egg corn research. Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is (unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, black pepper? A bit like green olives v. black olives? Stupot > Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is > (unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, > black pepper? A bit like green olives v. black olives? Definitely. In our house the black pepper is bought in the form of peppercorns and put in a grinder for the table; the white is ready-ground powder in the supermarket container and hidden away in a cupboard. Personally, I prefer the flavour of the white, especially when added to that Great British Delicacy, sardines on toast. But going back to the subject, I am bewildered as to why people put pepper on eggs - for me it drowns out the subtle flavour just as much as I imagine lime pickle would. All eggs require is salt. Mike M >> Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is >> (unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >All eggs require is salt. Guilty, your honour. I like eggs with black pepper, a sprinkling of tarragon and often even a dash of Worcestershire sauce. SignatureArchie Valparaiso The Mike M entity posted thusly: >> Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is >> (unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >All eggs require is salt. Yuck! To me, salt kills the flavour of eggs. I like a little pepper on eggs, though I love them without, too, and depending on how I cook them, a little parmesan cheese. Eggs and parmesan are an incredible combination. > Yuck! To me, salt kills the flavour of eggs. I like a little pepper on > eggs, though I love them without, too, and depending on how I cook > them, a little parmesan cheese. Eggs and parmesan are an incredible > combination. I can just about manage to eat tomatoes without salt when in desperate straits, but I don't think I could manage an egg. Of course, parmesan is very salty anyway, so I suppose it would make an acceptable substitute. SignatureRob Bannister > But going back to the subject, I am bewildered as to why people put > pepper on eggs I've tried chilli and piri piri, but white pepper seems best. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >> But going back to the subject, I am bewildered as to why people put >> pepper on eggs > >I've tried chilli and piri piri, but white pepper seems best. I suppose it will do if tabasco is not conveniently to be had....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >> But going back to the subject, I am bewildered as to why people put >> pepper on eggs > > I've tried chilli and piri piri, but white pepper seems best. It gets worse. Some people put ketchup. Not me, I hasten to add. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > > Some foods or drinks seem to just blend together to produce a new > > flavour like pork sausage and beans or mango and orange. In some [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Stupot I had never heard of the poshness of black olives but in a professional kitchen white pepper would be used as Garrett says to avoid black specks in light coloured sauces and other things. Light batters comes to mind. Customers tend to assume the very worst whenever they are eating in a restaurant or cafeteria. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada > Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is > (unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, > black pepper? A bit like green olives v. black olives? I would presume the opposite, as I see black pepper everywhere (well, not _everywhere_, but you know what I mean). I've seen white pepper at the supermarket, but never at anyone's house or -- as far as I know -- in a restaurant. I didn't eat pepper until a few years ago, however, so maybe I've been blocking it from my mind. I still haven't knowingly tried white pepper. SignatureSML >> Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is >> (unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I didn't eat pepper until a few years ago, however, so maybe I've been > blocking it from my mind. I still haven't knowingly tried white pepper. It's usually used in cooking, rather than being served at table as a condiment. You've likely eaten it unknowingly. I tend to agree, though, that it's the posher sort of pepper, inasmuch as one has to be an at least slightly serious cook to think of buying it and keeping it on hand. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >> Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is > >> (unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > one has to be an at least slightly serious cook to think of buying it and > keeping it on hand. In UK terms, the kind of aroma-free sneezing powder you'd find in a shaker will almost always be white pepper, and the kind you grind on the spot will almost always be black. So in that way black pepper is posher, being to white rather as real coffee is to instant. But if you're Serious About Cooking, you have another grinder with white peppercorns in it; so that would be Dead Poash. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > In UK terms, the kind of aroma-free sneezing powder you'd find in a > shaker will almost always be white pepper, and the kind you grind on the > spot will almost always be black. So in that way black pepper is posher, > being to white rather as real coffee is to instant. But if you're > Serious About Cooking, you have another grinder with white peppercorns > in it; so that would be Dead Poash. Absolutely backwards to my Leftpondian experience, as we are discovering. Prepackaged and/or pre-ground pepper is black here, and that's what's in pepper shakers and pepper mills used at table in both homes and restaurants. As I never reach for the pepper when I eat, I guess I never noticed the difference on visits to the UK. Still, it is always gratifying to learn that one is Dead Poash. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > In UK terms, the kind of aroma-free sneezing powder you'd find in a > shaker will almost always be white pepper, and the kind you grind on > the spot will almost always be black. So in that way black pepper is > posher, being to white rather as real coffee is to instant. But if > you're Serious About Cooking, you have another grinder with white > peppercorns in it; so that would be Dead Poash. I've been gathering that from the responses. As Roland says, the standard ground pepper served at table in the US is black. White tends to be for cooking, and at that somewhat unusual. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) The Default User entity posted thusly: >> In UK terms, the kind of aroma-free sneezing powder you'd find in a >> shaker will almost always be white pepper, and the kind you grind on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >standard ground pepper served at table in the US is black. White tends >to be for cooking, and at that somewhat unusual. I do all the cooking in my home, and I don't have any white pepper, pre-cround or not. If I have ever eaten it, I was unaware of doing so. > The Default User entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > If I have ever eaten it, I was unaware of doing so. I used to get it when the local supermarket had a bulk food section. Spices, including ground white pepper, were inexpensive. I don't bother now, the black flecks in white sauce thing doesn't really concern me much, so I just use black. I've thought about getting some white peppercorns and another grinder, but never followed through. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) Default User filted: >> The Default User entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >much, so I just use black. I've thought about getting some white >peppercorns and another grinder, but never followed through. I recall Graham Kerr (the Galloping Gourmet) back in the late 1960s explaining on more than one occasion that "a white peppercorn is merely a black peppercorn with its overcoat off"...given that explanation, I've always considered it the spice equivalent of insisting that one's sliced bread have the crusts trimmed off (or on a more sophisticated gastronomic level, picking the rind off of brie).... "You put enough white wine in the pan to make the fish feel wanted" - G.K. ....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Default User filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > a more sophisticated gastronomic level, picking the rind off of > brie).... That's along the right lines. Black pepper is made from unripe berries, with the outer coating intact, while white is from ripe berries with the coating removed. There is some difference in flavor, so it's not merely and appearance things. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >Default User filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >off (or on a more sophisticated gastronomic level, picking the rind off of >brie).... "Picking the rind off brie"? What kind of talk is that? Brie sans rind is like ... a parrot without a squawk? It don't work. Are those people who can't come at black flecks in white sauce the same ones as what put vanilla flecks in their sweets? SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > "Picking the rind off brie"? What kind of talk is that? I've seen it happen. I'm not saying they're right, but I have seen it happen. > Brie sans rind > is like ... a parrot without a squawk? It don't work. How do you feel about the rind on Stilton? SignatureSML >> "Picking the rind off brie"? What kind of talk is that? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >How do you feel about the rind on Stilton? I usually cut it off, but then often eat it anyway as a way of clearing up the plate. If there are any crumbs left over, I am not above licking the end of a finger and picking them up and eating them that way. Some people find this very annoying, which only increases the pleasure of the practice. Mike Page Mike Page filted: >>How do you feel about the rind on Stilton? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >eating them that way. Some people find this very annoying, which >only increases the pleasure of the practice. That's a good way to get port all over your hands....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >>> "Picking the rind off brie"? What kind of talk is that? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >eating them that way. Some people find this very annoying, which >only increases the pleasure of the practice. Ah, it sounds as though you are another lover of Really Good Cheese. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary The Amethyst Deceiver entity posted thusly: >>>> "Picking the rind off brie"? What kind of talk is that? >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Ah, it sounds as though you are another lover of Really Good Cheese. As am I, but it's sure getting expensive. After reading Mike's description, I was in the mood for some Stilton. In the supermarket yesterday, I picked up a small piece and looked at the price. It was about the size of my fist, and nearly $10 (Canuckistani bucks, mind). It's about $3.50 per 100 grams. > The Amethyst Deceiver entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > about the size of my fist, and nearly $10 (Canuckistani bucks, mind). > It's about $3.50 per 100 grams. Yesterday, I paid nearly $20 for the same amount of Roquefort. Only Aussie dollars, mind. Stilton is somewhat cheaper. SignatureRob Bannister >>"Picking the rind off brie"? What kind of talk is that? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > How do you feel about the rind on Stilton? I eat it, of course, but I've noticed recently that like so many other cheeses, Stilton is now being produced with a plastic rind which is a bit chewy. SignatureRob Bannister >>>"Picking the rind off brie"? What kind of talk is that? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >cheeses, Stilton is now being produced with a plastic rind which is a >bit chewy. I don't think you'd be allowed to call that 'Stilton' over here. Mike Page >>>>"Picking the rind off brie"? What kind of talk is that? >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I don't think you'd be allowed to call that 'Stilton' over here. This particular one came from Long Clawson, a village close to Melton Mowbray, and well known for Stilton for a very long time. I imagine that they produce things differently for the export market. SignatureRob Bannister > "Picking the rind off brie"? What kind of talk is that? Brie sans rind > is like ... a parrot without a squawk? It don't work. > > Are those people who can't come at black flecks in white sauce the > same ones as what put vanilla flecks in their sweets? Once I saw someone picking the seeds out of passion fruit. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. >> "Picking the rind off brie"? What kind of talk is that? Brie sans rind >> is like ... a parrot without a squawk? It don't work. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Once I saw someone picking the seeds out of passion fruit. I saw some pom do that on a cooking show. Weird. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is > (unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, > black pepper? A bit like green olives v. black olives? I wouldn't have said that white pepper was inferior, but it does lack the flavours of black. Olives are strange. I had to more or less force myself to learn to like them and, to start with, I could only eat green ones. Today, I much prefer black olives; in fact, I actively dislike some green olives unless they're flavoured. A bit like wine: I don't consider white wine to be like wine at all. SignatureRob Bannister > Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is > (unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, > black pepper? A bit like green olives v. black olives? If anything, I would think the opposite. Black pepper is nearly as common as table salt, and is found in nearly every home and restaurant. White pepper is pretty rare, and to me would carry connotations of an unusual "foodie" spice. It would tend to indicate a fancier cook. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >>Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is >>(unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > White pepper is pretty rare, and to me would carry connotations of an > unusual "foodie" spice. It would tend to indicate a fancier cook. When I was a child, the only pepper we had at home was white pepper. My father sprinkled it liberally on his food, along with equally liberal amounts of salt. It was only after I went to university that I even knew that black pepper existed. One of my room-mates gave me a pepper-grinder for Christmas, because I was so excited by the discovery. When we lived in London in the early 1970s, Italian food was just becoming fashionable. Italian restaurants invariably included the offer of fresh-ground black pepper, delivered by a grinder that took several waiters to carry to your table. Who was it that opened all those "trattorias"? Mario and Franco? Fran >>>Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is >>>(unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Who was it that opened all those "trattorias"? Mario and Franco? Beats me. All I know is that waiters armed with the large ceremonial peppermills descended like a plague on all classes of diners in all sorts of restaurants in these United States at about that time or a little after. I _almost_ expected to find them in McDonaldses. Since I'm not a fan of extra pepper on my food, no matter how chichi the joint, I had to learn how to fend them off. (Quick action is essential.) SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > When I was a child, the only pepper we had at home was white pepper. My > father sprinkled it liberally on his food, along with equally liberal > amounts of salt. > > It was only after I went to university that I even knew that black > pepper existed. I meant to add in my previous post: Goodness! What a singular childhood, pepper-wise. Mind you, I think I only learned to use pepper at all at university myself. It was considered an "adult" taste in my house when I was very small -- not something a very young child would care for -- and I was late catching up as I got older. Mind you, I still really only use it in the kitchen, not at table. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. The Roland Hutchinson entity posted thusly: >> When I was a child, the only pepper we had at home was white pepper. My >> father sprinkled it liberally on his food, along with equally liberal [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >as I got older. Mind you, I still really only use it in the kitchen, not >at table. Woman visits the Doctor for a checkup. He finishes the exam and asks if there is anything else she wants to mention about herself. "Well, it's strange, but every time I sneeze, I have an orgasm." "Oh? Are you taking anything for it?" "Just pepper." >>> Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is >>> (unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and inferior to, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > father sprinkled it liberally on his food, along with equally liberal > amounts of salt. > It was only after I went to university that I even knew that black > pepper existed. One of my room-mates gave me a pepper-grinder for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of fresh-ground black pepper, delivered by a grinder that took several > waiters to carry to your table. My experience was much the same. My mother still thinks that black pepper is to be avoided as far as possible and it is quite difficult to find ground white pepper these days. A dear friend recently gave me a very splendid electric pepper grinder, a gadget I have long yearned for but would have felt too extravagant to purchase for myself [1]. It even has a light. I can now season the inside of chickens without difficulty. This has changed my life. [1] Obaue: I think that could have been written more elegantly but I'm not quite sure how. And, OT: what items do other posters feel that way about? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 17 Jan 2007, LFS wrote >>>> Am I the only one who has a suspicion that white pepper is >>>> (unwarrantedly) considered by some to be less posh, and >>>> inferior to, black pepper? -snip- >>> If anything, I would think the opposite. -snip- >> When I was a child, the only pepper we had at home was white >> pepper. -snip- > My experience was much the same. My mother still thinks that > black pepper is to be avoided as far as possible and it is quite > difficult to find ground white pepper these days. Try Morrison's. When our Safeway became a Morrison's a few years back, it came as a surprise to find that the in-store cafe had way more white than black pepper shakers as part of the standard table kit. I assumed it was part of the general strangeness of northerners, but it could well be a mark of the downmarketness of their operation, as well. (Good value cafe, though.) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van The LFS entity posted thusly: >> It was only after I went to university that I even knew that black >> pepper existed. One of my room-mates gave me a pepper-grinder for [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >not quite sure how. And, OT: what items do other posters feel that way >about? Oh, only about 2/3 of the items in the _Lee Valley Tools_ catalogue, and 10 or 20 items in the _Hammacher Schlemmer_ catalogue. The latter arrived yesterday, and I once again marvelled at the variety of gadgetry and extravagantly decadent items offered. > My experience was much the same. My mother still thinks that black > pepper is to be avoided as far as possible and it is quite difficult to > find ground white pepper these days. Curiouser and curiouser. I don't believe I've ever encountered pre-packaged ground white pepper. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>My experience was much the same. My mother still thinks that black >>pepper is to be avoided as far as possible and it is quite difficult to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I don't believe I've ever encountered pre-packaged ground white pepper. This is beginning to sound like another pond thing. To the best of my knowledge, ground white pepper was for a long time the only pepper that most British and Australian people knew. I'm certain I never had or even saw black pepper until the 70s, although I was dimly aware that it existed in the same way that I was aware of the existence of caviar. My main peeve today is that, in supermarkets, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find peppercorns (black, white, green or red) that are not in their own little grinder instead of being loose so that I can use them in my own grinder. SignatureRob Bannister >>>My experience was much the same. My mother still thinks that black >>>pepper is to be avoided as far as possible and it is quite difficult to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is beginning to sound like another pond thing. Yes. I think we've pretty much established it as one of those obscure, they-never-tell-you-in-the-guidebooks things. Heck, they don't even tell you in the cookbooks. I think that the chief question remaining now is how many, like me, have spent time in both White Pepperland and Black Pepperland without having noticed. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> My experience was much the same. My mother still thinks that black >>> pepper is to be avoided as far as possible and it is quite difficult to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > that are not in their own little grinder instead of being loose so that > I can use them in my own grinder. Get Masterfoods 'Peppercorn Medley'. It's what I use. It's in a regular jar. It's got black, white, green and pink peppercorns. It should be available in a supermarket near you. Stupot >>>> My experience was much the same. My mother still thinks that black >>>> pepper is to be avoided as far as possible and it is quite difficult to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> red) that are not in their own little grinder instead of being loose >> so that I can use them in my own grinder. I loved those little grinder things when they first came out, but I got irritated by them when I found they couldn't be refilled. > Get Masterfoods 'Peppercorn Medley'. It's what I use. It's in a regular > jar. It's got black, white, green and pink peppercorns. It should be > available in a supermarket near you. I like those multicoloured pepper collections; they look so pretty. I found out recently (probably from FoodTV) that the pink ones are not peppercorns, but berries of some kind. Fran [...] > > My main peeve today is that, in supermarkets, it is becoming > > increasingly difficult to find peppercorns (black, white, green or red) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > jar. It's got black, white, green and pink peppercorns. It should be > available in a supermarket near you. An Indian-type food shop will be much cheaper and have a bigger selection of spices than a supermarket. SignatureMike. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > An Indian-type food shop will be much cheaper and have a bigger > selection of spices than a supermarket. Of course. I didn't say I couldn't obtain them. Just that they are becoming rarer in supermarkets. Of course, this may change as the 2 supermarket chains, that now seem to own all our pubs and service-stations, are slowly replacing everything with "own brand" goods. SignatureRob Bannister >[...] >> > My main peeve today is that, in supermarkets, it is becoming [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >An Indian-type food shop will be much cheaper and have a bigger >selection of spices than a supermarket. Or asian grocery here in underpondia. Also the best place for fresh herbs. ObPronounciation: the Iron Chef commentator voice-overs (who have American accents) always pronounce herbs without the h. Is this normal or at least common for Americans? SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. The Richard Bollard entity posted thusly: >>[...] >>> > My main peeve today is that, in supermarkets, it is becoming [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >American accents) always pronounce herbs without the h. Is this normal >or at least common for Americans? Yes, it's far too common, and likewise for Canadians. >>ObPronounciation: the Iron Chef commentator voice-overs (who have >>American accents) always pronounce herbs without the h. Is this normal >>or at least common for Americans? The former. I would think that any competent dictionary would inform you of this, but I notice that the American pronunciation passes unrecorded in the OED to this very day. > Yes, it's far too common, and likewise for Canadians. "Too common" in the same sense that having a /k/ in "schedule" is: it's absolutely standard and universal in AmE. I would say that pronouncing the "h" sounds like a mistaken spelling pronunciation to most Americans, and it certainly too, me a while to get used to hearing Brits say the word that way. Our friends at m-w.com say " '&rb, US also and Britain usually 'h&rb", so I suppose that the haspirate haitch has some limited currency among my fellow Americans. Come to think of it, it _is_ a spelling pronunciation: French word, innit. Or did our Norman forbears pronounce those haitches for our Anglo-Saxon forbears to himmitate? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >Our friends at m-w.com say " '&rb, US also and Britain usually 'h&rb", so I >suppose that the haspirate haitch has some limited currency among my fellow >Americans. Only the ones who pronounce the initial H in "hour", "heir" and "honesty", I suspect....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >>> ObPronounciation: the Iron Chef commentator voice-overs (who have >>> American accents) always pronounce herbs without the h. Is this normal >>> or at least common for Americans? >> Yes, it's far too common, and likewise for Canadians. > Come to think of it, it _is_ a spelling pronunciation: French word, innit. > Or did our Norman forbears pronounce those haitches for our Anglo-Saxon > forbears to himmitate? Yes. French, like English, is written as it was pronounced several centuries ago. If the 'h' is there, it represents something that was pronounced when French was first written. Matthew Huntbach [(h)erb] >> Come to think of it, it _is_ a spelling pronunciation: French >> word, innit. Or did our Norman forbears pronounce those haitches [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > centuries ago. If the 'h' is there, it represents something that was > pronounced when French was first written. Sometimes. The "aspirate h" (as in "la hache") still is, as a pause, or even as an "h" in some Canadian dialects; the "inaspirate h" ("l'heure") is a mute gesture of respect to the the Romans. I haven't checked, but I believe that the former kind are found in words of germanic origin. > [(h)erb] > >>> Come to think of it, it _is_ a spelling pronunciation: French >>> word, innit. Or did our Norman forbears pronounce those haitches >>> for our Anglo-Saxon forbears to himmitate? >> Yes. French, like English, is written as it was pronounced several >> centuries ago. If the 'h' is there, it represents something that was >> pronounced when French was first written. > Sometimes. The "aspirate h" (as in "la hache") still is, as a pause, > or even as an "h" in some Canadian dialects; the "inaspirate h" > ("l'heure") is a mute gesture of respect to the the Romans. I haven't > checked, but I believe that the former kind are found in words of > germanic origin. My understanding is that the French aspirate 'h' functions as a consonant with no pronunciation. Its functioning as a consonant means it stops the rules that otherwise apply to the pronunciation of preceding words before a vowel. The inaspirate 'h' is purely a spelling matter, it is treated as if it is not there when it comes to preceding words. I'm conjecturing that when French was first written, even the inaspirate 'h' represented something that had a pronunciation effect. Are you suggesting that when French was first written the writers put unpronounced 'h' into words out of a knowledge they were derived from Latin and the Latin word had the 'h'? French is a horrible language for beginners because of all these unpronounced final letters which become pronounced again when they are followed by a vowel. The unpronounced final "-ent" on third person plural is very silly, although who are we English to talk about silly spellings? But my understanding is that these spellings represent changes in pronunciation since French was first written. So our Norman forbears would have pronounced all of it. Matthew Huntbach [(h)erb] > My understanding is that the French aspirate 'h' functions as a > consonant with no pronunciation. Its functioning as a consonant > means it stops the rules that otherwise apply to the pronunciation > of preceding words before a vowel. I don't think we disagree there. In "international French" that kind of "h" is heard only by its effect on preceding words, often the use of the uncontracted article or omission of the liaison, which I referred to as a pause: as I said, though, you sometimes hear it pronounced like English "h" in Canada. That might be anglophone influence, of course, but since it can be heard in the French of the countryside, far from English habitation, it seems to me more likely to be a survival. > The inaspirate 'h' is purely a spelling matter, it is treated as if > it is not there when it comes to preceding words. D'accord. > I'm conjecturing that when French was first written, even the > inaspirate 'h' represented something that had a pronunciation > effect. Are you suggesting that when French was first written the > writers put unpronounced 'h' into words out of a knowledge they were > derived from Latin and the Latin word had > the 'h'? Sort of. As far as I know, Latin dropped the sound before French was thought of. When you look at other posts just made to this thread, you'll see that a couple of people have pointed out that early French spelling often omitted that kind of "h": "erbe" for "herbe". It was inserted later, on etymological grounds. English is full of these bonus letters too, of course; most amusing when the etymology is wrong. > French is a horrible language for beginners because of all these > unpronounced final letters which become pronounced again when they [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Norman > forbears would have pronounced all of it. Dunno about the "-ent"; I suspect the last letter is an etymological insertion, though. At least, it doesn't survive in any other (modern) Romance language I'm familiar with. As for the "en" part, I find it suspicious that the vowel is "e" in all conjugations: it's what you would expect if it had been silent when the spelling was introduced. Even if silent from the start, it would have served to distinguish persons of the verb in writing. I suppose the other complication is deciding which French was first written. Modern French? Middle French? Norman French/Anglo-Norman? Old French? "Rustic Roman"? I've googled around a bit, trying to find something that bears directly on these questions, without much luck. The good folk at sci.lang would probably be willing to abuse us into a more perfect knowledge, but I don't think I want to go there right now. >> French is a horrible language for beginners because of all these >> unpronounced final letters which become pronounced again when they [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> represent changes in pronunciation since French was first written. So our >> Norman forbears would have pronounced all of it. > Dunno about the "-ent"; I suspect the last letter is an etymological > insertion, though. At least, it doesn't survive in any other (modern) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Even if silent from the start, it would have served to distinguish > persons of the verb in writing. I do remember hearing of a French dialect where the "-ent" is still pronounced. It can't be impossible to find a history of it somewgere, can it? Matthew Huntbach CDB a écrit : > I suppose the other complication is deciding which French was first > written. Modern French? Middle French? Norman French/Anglo-Norman? > Old French? "Rustic Roman"? I've googled around a bit, trying to > find something that bears directly on these questions, without much > luck. It is generally admitted that "The oath of strasbourg" is the oldest text written in Old French in 843. It is said here that it was not written in a particular dialect but instead in a worked out transdialectal language, the first instance of written French. http://www.langue-fr.net/d/origines/serment-strasbourg.htm#Serments The text in Old french: Pro deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun saluament, d'ist di en auant, in quant Deus sauir et podir me dunat, si saluarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo, et in aiudha et in cadhuna cosa, si cum om per dreit son fradra saluar dist, in o quid il mi altresi fazet, et ab Ludher nul plaid nunquam prindrai, qui meon vol cist meon fradre Karle in damno sit. The translation in modern French: Pour l'amour de Dieu et pour le salut commun du peuple chrétien et le nôtre, à partir de ce jour, autant que Dieu m'en donne le savoir et le pouvoir, je soutiendrai mon frère Charles de mon aide en toute chose, comme on doit justement soutenir son frère, à condition qu'il m'en fasse autant, et je ne prendrai jamais aucun arrangement avec Lothaire qui, à ma volonté, soit au détriment de mon dit frère Charles. > CDB a écrit : > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > mi altresi fazet, et ab Ludher nul plaid nunquam prindrai, > qui meon vol cist meon fradre Karle in damno sit. [translation] Thank you for this. It certainly has final "t"s, although unfortunately no third-person plural forms. It raises the same question I put above, though. Some of it clearly shows the influence of the scribes' Latin education: nunquam, for instance (Latin final "m" was surely gone by then) and "in damno sit", which goes so far as to claim the Latin ablative ending; so that "transdialectal" still doesn't mean the same as "in a direct line to modern French", the modern language being a developmentof the Paris dialect. A parallel might be to consider Old English pronunciation as a guide to modern English spelling, in spite of the differences between the then-standard West Saxon and the later East Midlands that gave rise to the modern language. > Dunno about the "-ent"; I suspect the last letter is an etymological > insertion, though. At least, it doesn't survive in any other (modern) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Even if silent from the start, it would have served to distinguish > persons of the verb in writing. The mute e's of modern French (but not the n and t of -ent) are pronounced in singing and in very formal declamation (e.g. of verse) -- and of course also in some dialects. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > [(h)erb] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > checked, but I believe that the former kind are found in words of > germanic origin. The trout in the milk seems to be that the Old French spelling was normally without the "h" -- it looks like that letter crept back in as an etymological, Latinate spelling. OED gives the etymological history as: [In ME. usually erbe, a. OF. erbe (11th c. in Littré), mod.F. herbe (= It. erba, Sp. yerba, Pg. herva)--L. herba grass, green crops, herbage, herb. In OF. and ME. occasionally spelt with h after Lat.; regularly so since c1475, but the h was mute until the 19th c., and is still so treated by many: see H (the letter).] SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. ["Herb"] >> Come to think of it, it _is_ a spelling pronunciation: French word, innit. >> Or did our Norman forbears pronounce those haitches for our Anglo-Saxon [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >centuries ago. If the 'h' is there, it represents something that was >pronounced when French was first written. Generally true, but this case is a bit more complicated. Apparently it was spelled "erbe" in Old French, and either "erbe" od "herbe" in Middle English. The "h" was not pronounced in English until the early 19th century, and only in BrE. David The dcw entity posted thusly: >["Herb"] > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >English. The "h" was not pronounced in English until the early 19th >century, and only in BrE. And, of course, CdnE, though there are a large number of Canadians who pronounce it 'erb', and some who use both. > Generally true, but this case is a bit more complicated. Apparently it > was spelled "erbe" in Old French, and either "erbe" od "herbe" in Middle > English. The "h" was not pronounced in English until the early 19th > century, and only in BrE. Presumably this was about the time when people stopped pronouncing the h in "hotel" and similar words. SignatureRob Bannister >> Generally true, but this case is a bit more complicated. Apparently it >> was spelled "erbe" in Old French, and either "erbe" od "herbe" in Middle [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Presumably this was about the time when people stopped pronouncing the h > in "hotel" and similar words. I think I may have meant "started pronouncing". SignatureRob Bannister >>>ObPronounciation: the Iron Chef commentator voice-overs (who have >>>American accents) always pronounce herbs without the h. Is this [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > inform you of this, but I notice that the American pronunciation > passes unrecorded in the OED to this very day. They don't mention that it's standard in the US, but they do note that "the h was mute until the 19th c., and is still so treated by many". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The plural of "anecdote" 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is not "data" Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ y. > Our friends at m-w.com say " '&rb, US also and Britain usually 'h&rb", I would question the vowel as well as the r. Surely BrE is "hVb"? SignatureRob Bannister > y. >> >> Our friends at m-w.com say " '&rb, US also and Britain usually 'h&rb", > > I would question the vowel as well as the r. Surely BrE is "hVb"? No, that's BrE "hub". SignatureSalvatore Volatile >>y. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > No, that's BrE "hub". Right. I never could do ASCII IPA. It should be "hV:b" or "hV":b". SignatureRob Bannister > y. >> Our friends at m-w.com say " '&rb, US also and Britain usually >> 'h&rb", > > I would question the vowel as well as the r. Surely BrE is "hVb"? According to their pronunciation guide, "@r" is their representation for the vowel phonemes in "further", "merger", and "bird". Do non-rhotic Brits use a vowel in "herb" that's different from the one they use in those words? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Never ascribe to malice that which 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can adequately be explained by Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stupidity. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>y. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > non-rhotic Brits use a vowel in "herb" that's different from the one > they use in those words? I haven't read their pronunciation guide, but if that's the case, then there's no problem with M-W. However, Roland wrote "h&rb", which is rather different and suggests "hair" with a b on the end. SignatureRob Bannister >>>y. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > there's no problem with M-W. However, Roland wrote "h&rb", which is > rather different and suggests "hair" with a b on the end. I should perhaps have made it clear that I was copying verbatim -- and, more to the point, literatim -- their entry, which uses their own rather idiosyncratic set of pronunciation symbols, viz: \&\ as a and u in abut \&\ as e in kitten \&r\as ur/er in further \a\ as a in ash \A\ as a in ace \ä\ as o in mop \au\ as ou in out \ch\ as ch in chin \e\ as e in bet \E\ as ea in easy \g\ as g in go \i\ as i in hit \I\ as i in ice \j\ as j in job \[ng]\ as ng in sing \O\ as o in go \o\ as aw in law \oi\ as oy in boy \th\ as th in thin \th\ as th in the \ü\ as oo in loot \u\ as oo in foot \y\ as y in yet \zh\ as si in vision Their more extended explanation of their pronunciations explains further: "The stressed vowel of bird and hurt in r-dropping speech is similar to the vowel used by r-keepers in the same words but without the simultaneous raising of the center and/or tip of the tongue. In the U.S. most speakers of r-dropping dialects will pronounce \r\ before consonants in some words or in some contexts. Because it is determined by the phonetic context, r-dropping is not explicitly represented in this dictionary; speakers of r-dropping dialects will automatically substitute the sounds appropriate to their own speech." SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> y. >>> Our friends at m-w.com say " '&rb, US also and Britain usually [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > non-rhotic Brits use a vowel in "herb" that's different from the one > they use in those words? I wouldn't trust m-w.com for BrE pronunciation. The vowel is indeed the same in all those words in non-rhotic dialects, and it's what we non-rhotics call the "er" vowel, but it doesn't contain any "r"; nor does it sound much like a schwa, despite those several linguists who insist that it's a lengthened schwa. (I've never decided whether they're distorting the truth in order to fit a round peg into a square theory, or whether they simply have tin ears.) In the ASCII IPA that we customarily use in AUE, the non-rhotic pronunciation is [hV"b], or sometimes [hV":b]. If someone once again says that [V"] is my realisation of /R/, then I'll stick to the tin ear theory. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > In the ASCII IPA that we customarily use in AUE, the non-rhotic > pronunciation is [hV"b], or sometimes [hV":b]. If someone once again > says that [V"] is my realisation of /R/, then I'll stick to the tin ear > theory. And yet when you hear a rhotic speaker talking for any length of time, I suspect that you don't notice their [R]s as "different" phonemes from your [V"]. It's not "a different way of pronouncing 'bird'"; it just becomes "the way they pronounce that sound". You automatically make the correction, and while you're brain never stops telling you "with an American accent", there's not the continual jolt you get with h-less "herb" or /k/-ful "schedule". So there's not a whole lot of point in saying that they're not the same phoneme. It might not make a whole lot of sense from your point of view to choose /R/ as the symbol to use to describe this common phoneme, but I think that the notion is that you tend to choose the most "featureful" common reflex, which in this case would be the rhotic one. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |So when can we quit passing laws and 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |raising taxes? When can we say of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |our political system, "Stick a fork |in it, it's done?" kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>In the ASCII IPA that we customarily use in AUE, the non-rhotic >>pronunciation is [hV"b], or sometimes [hV":b]. If someone once again [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "with an American accent", there's not the continual jolt you get with > h-less "herb" or /k/-ful "schedule". That makes a great deal of sense to me. However, I did stumble the other day when the American tennis commentator said what sounded to me like "more surer": I had to do an instant replay in my head to realise that she had simply given the R of "sure" more weight than I'm used to, so that it sounded like an extra syllable. SignatureRob Bannister >>> In the ASCII IPA that we customarily use in AUE, the non-rhotic >>> pronunciation is [hV"b], or sometimes [hV":b]. If someone once [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> stops telling you "with an American accent", there's not the >> continual jolt you get with h-less "herb" or /k/-ful "schedule". (Side note: both pronunciations of "schedule" can be found in Australian English, so that particular example doesn't cause a jolt. That, of course, doesn't detract from your main point.) > That makes a great deal of sense to me. And to me, provided that the phoneme in question is followed by a consonant. As it happens, it's hard to find examples where it's not followed by a consonant (except at the end of a word), but there are some. Take the word "furry", which is [fV"ri] in AusE and [fR:i] in most versions of AmE. If we say that these are both realisations of /fRi/ then we must also say that AusE has an intrusive "r" in the middle of the word. It's true that AusE does have intrusive "r" between words in the right contexts, but I haven't heard the claim that it can be intrusive in the middle of the word, especially when there's an "rr" in the spelling. For another example, consider "perennial". Is this [pREnij@l] in AmE, or is it [pRrEnij@l]? I suppose some sort of formant analysis could show whether the combination [Rr] ever occurs. Listening to myself, I've now started wondering whether it's even possible to have a vocalic R immediately after a "p". When I try to imitate an American "purr", the best I can do is either [pV"R] or [p@R]. The vowel after the "p" is so short that it's almost inaudible, but it does seem to me that it's still there. > However, I did stumble the other day when the American tennis > commentator said what sounded to me like "more surer": I had to do an > instant replay in my head to realise that she had simply given the R > of "sure" more weight than I'm used to, so that it sounded like an > extra syllable. This is related to the above. Ignoring the question of whether there's an /O/ as the first vowel - because I think that this varies with dialect - we need to ask whether the AmE pronunciation of "surer" is [SRr] or [SrR] or [SRR]; and, perhaps more importantly, whether anyone could tell the difference. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > some. Take the word "furry", which is [fV"ri] in AusE and [fR:i] in > most versions of AmE. If we say that these are both realisations of > /fRi/ then we must also say that AusE has an intrusive "r" in the > middle of the word. Hindsight: we can circumvent that problem by deciding that they're both realisations of /fRri/. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. Peter Moylan filted: >> However, I did stumble the other day when the American tennis >> commentator said what sounded to me like "more surer": I had to do an [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >[SRr] or [SrR] or [SRR]; and, perhaps more importantly, whether anyone >could tell the difference. This American's pronunciation is [SUrR]; I don't know where you're getting those others....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanshauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Peter Moylan filted: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > This American's pronunciation is [SUrR]; I don't know where you're > getting those others....r Mine appears to be /SRrR/, and I think that it often gets realized as [SRR] or even [SR:]. I can do one with /U/, but it sounds like somebody else's pronunciation. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Other computer companies have spent 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |15 years working on fault-tolerant Palo Alto, CA 94304 |computers. Microsoft has spent |its time more fruitfully, working kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |on fault-tolerant *users*. (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >dialect - we need to ask whether the AmE pronunciation of "surer" is >[SRr] or [SrR] or [SRR]; and, perhaps more importantly, whether anyone ['SjuR R]. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>>ObPronounciation: the Iron Chef commentator voice-overs (who have >>>American accents) always pronounce herbs without the h. Is this normal [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >suppose that the haspirate haitch has some limited currency among my fellow >Americans. [...] I hadn't heard it, maybe because 'erbs are not often mentioned in American TV shows of my acquaintance. Do you aspirate "hero", "hirsuit" or "hurt". Dropping the aitch sounds cockney to me. I was also surprised by the, to me, peculiar pronounciation of "buoy" on another show. Down here, that word is exactly the same as "boy", only context is used to differentiate. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > I was also surprised by the, to me, peculiar pronounciation of "buoy" > on another show. Down here, that word is exactly the same as "boy", > only context is used to differentiate. Same here (where "here" is my desk chair). SignatureSML two gulls for every buoy Sara Lorimer filted: >> I was also surprised by the, to me, peculiar pronounciation of "buoy" >> on another show. Down here, that word is exactly the same as "boy", >> only context is used to differentiate. > >Same here (where "here" is my desk chair). Was listening last night to a very talented young man who calls himself "Lemon Demon", and noticed two very odd pronunciations in one bit: "finite" as /'fIn@t/ and "lacerate" as /'leIsR,eIt/.... How likely is it that someone whose vocabulary permits him to use such words non-self-consciously (and one whose casual thoughts include such things as quantum entanglement) would mispronounce both?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanshauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>Our friends at m-w.com say " '&rb, US also and Britain usually 'h&rb", so >>I suppose that the haspirate haitch has some limited currency among my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > American TV shows of my acquaintance. Do you aspirate "hero", > "hirsuit" or "hurt". Dropping the aitch sounds cockney to me. The "h" is pronounced in those words (and many others, including "hotel" and "historical"). "Herb" is an exceptional case. We also say "aitch", sans aspiration, regardless of ethnicity, creed, social class, or political affiliation. > I was also surprised by the, to me, peculiar pronounciation of "buoy" > on another show. Down here, that word is exactly the same as "boy", > only context is used to differentiate. I have heard both pronunciations from Americans. It took a while for me to catch on to the meaning of the (at the time to me) less familiar, disyllabic one. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >ObPronounciation: the Iron Chef commentator voice-overs (who have >American accents) always pronounce herbs without the h. Is this normal >or at least common for Americans? Yes, I would go so far as to say that it is Standard. [hRb] is a fellow; [Rb] is a plant. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>ObPronounciation: the Iron Chef commentator voice-overs (who have >>American accents) always pronounce herbs without the h. Is this >>normal or at least common for Americans? > > Yes, I would go so far as to say that it is Standard. [hRb] is a > fellow; [Rb] is a plant. We have a plant named Herbert (with an [h]). And it wouldn't surprise me if there weren't groups infiltrated by plants named Herb. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Specifically, I'd like to debate 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |whether cannibalism ought to be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |grounds for leniency in murder, |since it's less wasteful. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ [...] > > Yes, I would go so far as to say that it is Standard. [hRb] is a > > fellow; [Rb] is a plant. > > We have a plant named Herbert (with an [h]). And it wouldn't surprise > me if there weren't groups infiltrated by plants named Herb. I hope he isn't a specimen of herb Robert, _Geranium robertianum_: you don't want a plant with an identity crisis. SignatureMike. Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>>ObPronounciation: the Iron Chef commentator voice-overs (who have >>>American accents) always pronounce herbs without the h. Is this [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >We have a plant named Herbert (with an [h]). And it wouldn't surprise >me if there weren't groups infiltrated by plants named Herb. Would it be fair to say that in the UK, but not in the US, "Peaches and Herb" is one of the "food groups", like Cream, Bread, Raspberries and Vanilla Fudge?...r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Yes, I would go so far as to say that it is Standard. [hRb] is a > fellow; [Rb] is a plant. If I understand correctly, In the US, oREGGAno and BAYzle are erbs In the UK, oreGARno and BAZZle are herbs Mike M >> Yes, I would go so far as to say that it is Standard. [hRb] is a >> fellow; [Rb] is a plant. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > In the UK, oreGARno and BAZZle are herbs Your understanding is not fawlty. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. mikmooney@googlemail.com had it: > > Yes, I would go so far as to say that it is Standard. [hRb] is a > > fellow; [Rb] is a plant. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > In the UK, oreGARno and BAZZle are herbs BAZZle isn't a herb, he's a hchchampster. SignatureDavid ===== the Omrud filted: >mikmooney@googlemail.com had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >BAZZle isn't a herb, he's a hchchampster. This'd be another of those literal LOL instances I was talking about in another thread....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > the Omrud filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > This'd be another of those literal LOL instances I was talking about > in another thread....r And just think how the effect would have been damped if David had written: "BAZZle isn't a herb, he's a hchchampster, LOL!" SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > the Omrud filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > This'd be another of those literal LOL instances I was talking about > in another thread....r Clicked "send" just before coining the ancient Chinese proverb "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; LOL, and you laugh alone." SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> My main peeve today is that, in supermarkets, it is becoming >>increasingly difficult to find peppercorns (black, white, green or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >regular jar. It's got black, white, green and pink peppercorns. It >should be available in a supermarket near you. What fun -- Neapolitan pepper! SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! ... > A dear friend recently gave me a very splendid electric pepper grinder, > a gadget I have long yearned for but would have felt too extravagant to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > [1] Obaue: I think that could have been written more elegantly but I'm > not quite sure how. A challenge! I don't think you can keep "gadget" as the antecedent of both clauses. "...a gadget I have long yearned for while feeling that I'd be too extravagant to purchase one for myself." That's assuming that you would have felt extravagant. If you felt the grinder was extravagant, you can say, "...a gadget I have long yearned for but felt to be too extravagant to purchase for myself." Usually I'd delete "to be" from "felt to be", but there I think it helps avoid garden-path-leading. > And, OT: what items do other posters feel that way > about? I wouldn't say no to a trip to... almost anywhere I haven't been, except cold regions in winter and industrial cities. SignatureJerry Friedman > ... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I'd delete "to be" from "felt to be", but there I think it helps avoid > garden-path-leading. I have been puzzling over this distinction. I don't think a pepper mill can be extravagant. It might be an extravagance, though. So perhaps I should have written "a gadget which I have long yearned for but felt too great an extravagance to purchase for myself". >>And, OT: what items do other posters feel that way >>about? > > I wouldn't say no to a trip to... almost anywhere I haven't been, > except cold regions in winter and industrial cities. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > > ... > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > both clauses. "...a gadget I have long yearned for while feeling that > > I'd be too extravagant to purchase one for myself." That is, "I'd be too extravagant if I purchased one for myself." > > That's assuming that you would have felt extravagant. If you felt the > > grinder was extravagant, you can say, "...a gadget I have long yearned [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > should have written "a gadget which I have long yearned for but felt too > great an extravagance to purchase for myself". Though maybe a pepper mill can be extravagant if it features ergonomic design, hand-carved construction from exotic woods, continuous control of fineness, hoppers for six kinds of peppercorns, a button that switches hoppers and cleans out the remains of the previous peppercorns.... SignatureJerry Friedman > When I was a child, the only pepper we had at home was white pepper. > My father sprinkled it liberally on his food, along with equally [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > pepper existed. One of my room-mates gave me a pepper-grinder for > Christmas, because I was so excited by the discovery. Gosh, we could have been separated at birth! SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> It was only after I went to university that I even knew that black >> pepper existed. One of my room-mates gave me a pepper-grinder for >> Christmas, because I was so excited by the discovery. > > Gosh, we could have been separated at birth! I would have assumed that you were, probably by at least a fair number of miles. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The law of supply and demand tells us 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that when the price of something is Palo Alto, CA 94304 |artificially set below market level, |there will soon be none of that thing kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |left--as you may have noticed the (650)857-7572 |last time you tried to buy something |for nothing. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke [...] > When we lived in London in the early 1970s, Italian food was just > becoming fashionable. Italian restaurants invariably included the offer > of fresh-ground black pepper, delivered by a grinder that took several > waiters to carry to your table. They do say the quality of the food is in inverse proportion to the size of the pepper-grinder. In fairness, though, it would be a pain to have to keep refilling small ones -- and I imagine they'd generally get nicked. SignatureMike. > [...] >> When we lived in London in the early 1970s, Italian food was just [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > have to keep refilling small ones -- and I imagine they'd generally get > nicked. Still, there's a wide spread between merely too large to be easily nicked (AmE swiped) and those formidable weapons of mass gastronomic destruction wielded by the serving staff in the Sort of Establishment under discussion. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > They do say the quality of the food is in inverse proportion to the > size of the pepper-grinder. In fairness, though, it would be a pain to > have to keep refilling small ones -- and I imagine they'd generally get > nicked. But why? Why would coffee grinders be stolen in larger numbers than salt shakers, candlesticks, forks, mugs (I'm guilty of that one), or those cool sugar dispensers? They're not that expensive, and they're easily available. SignatureSML >>They do say the quality of the food is in inverse proportion to the >>size of the pepper-grinder. In fairness, though, it would be a pain to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > cool sugar dispensers? They're not that expensive, and they're easily > available. I don't know why people steal from restaurants and pubs. It isn't because they need the stuff: most people who can afford to eat out can also afford to buy plates and salt shakers. When a friend of mine opened a restaurant, he stocked it with beautiful china and cutlery. Within the first month, most of the smaller pieces of china, and much of the cutlery had been stolen. Short of frisking the customers as they left, there wasn't much he could do to stop it, so he just replaced the losses with mismatched china from the local markets. Fran >Some foods or drinks Having been primed by the subject line "Egg lime research" to think of "bird lime" my mind went into a spasm of confusion when it appeared that you were writing about eating egg with bird lime. It took more than a few minutes to rid myself of the droppings of that unpleasant thought. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [snip] > Having been primed by the subject line "Egg lime research" to think > of "bird lime" my mind went into a spasm of confusion when it > appeared that you were writing about eating egg with bird lime. [snip] "Bird lime" was new to me, so I looked it up in OED2. The big dic uses a hyphen -- it''s entry is fairly short (and to me, interesting), so I'm setting it out here: 1. a. A glutinous substance spread upon twigs, by which birds may be caught and held fast. c1440 Promp. Parv. 50 Brydelyme, viscus. 1578 Lyte Dodoens 701 With the barkes of Holme they make Bird~lyme. 1697 Phil. Trans. XIX. 368 It would draw out into long tough strings, like Bird-lime. 1863 Thornbury True as Steel II. 152 Love..is like birdlime; the more we struggle, the more entangled our wings get. b. fig. and transf. Also attrib. 1562 A. Scott N. Yere Gift, Kirk-mennis cursit substance semis sweet Till land-men, with that leud burd-lyme are knyttit. 1626 T. H. tr. Caussin's Holy Crt. 86 O what a strong birdlyme is a benefit! All generous birdes are taken with it. 1705 Vanbrugh Confeder. v. 2 That birdlime there stole it. Ibid. iii. ii, My rogue of a Son has laid his birdlime fingers on it. 2. Rhyming slang. Time; often spec. a term of imprisonment (cf. time n. 7b(d)). 1857 'Ducange Anglicus' Vulgar Tongue 2 Bird-lime, time. 1961 John o' London's 16 Nov. 551/2 Time is bird lime, but this is shortened to bird and..imprisonment is often called bird. 1962 Radio Times 20 Sept. 35 In the past Charley's done his 'birdlime' but he was given time off for good behaviour. > [snip] > > Having been primed by the subject line "Egg lime research" to think [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Sept. 35 In the past Charley's done his 'birdlime' but he was given > time off for good behaviour. So the OED does NOT have the "bird sh.t" definition? Tsk, tsk. That has been in wide use in BrE for a LONG time. Mike M >> [snip] >> > Having been primed by the subject line "Egg lime research" to think [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >So the OED does NOT have the "bird sh.t" definition? Tsk, tsk. That has >been in wide use in BrE for a LONG time. That was the definition I had in mind. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >> [snip] > >> > Having been primed by the subject line "Egg lime research" to think [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > > That was the definition I had in mind. And I think it's rather interesting. My theory, FWIW, follows. Hardly anybody, if anybody at all, now has a practical knowledge of bird-lime proper; and I imagine rather few even know what it is. So we'd expect the expression to have vanished; but it survives, expressed in the form "bird", rhyming slang for "time" (hence, of course, also a jail sentence). So people, needing a polite word for bird sh.t, lit on "bird-lime", because of the conspicuous white component. Even though the white stuff is, I think, far from being lime, actually uric acid. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> >> [snip] >> >> > Having been primed by the subject line "Egg lime research" to [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >"bird-lime", because of the conspicuous white component. Even though the >white stuff is, I think, far from being lime, actually uric acid. And the white stuff is not sh.t, but urine. Mike Page ... [Bird lime] > > >So the OED does NOT have the "bird sh.t" definition? Tsk, tsk. That > has [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "bird-lime", because of the conspicuous white component. Even though the > white stuff is, I think, far from being lime, actually uric acid. That's my theory about the origin of the most common (IME) American meaning of "sheep dip" (though there are still Americans who have sheep). I think there's another one of these things that's not coming to mind (no, I'm not talking about "Were you shot in the fracas?"), and I think we should call them "false euphemisms". A related topic is that some people think that "testy" comes from "testis" (thinking it means you behave more like a stallion than a gelding) and "crotchety" comes from the crotch of the body (thinking that it means irritable). Another is that a student was shocked that I used the expression "shoot one's wad". SignatureJerry Friedman jerry_friedman@yahoo.com filted: >That's my theory about the origin of the most common (IME) American >meaning of "sheep dip" (though there are still Americans who have >sheep). I think there's another one of these things that's not coming >to mind (no, I'm not talking about "Were you shot in the fracas?"), and >I think we should call them "false euphemisms". My brother had to be taught, upon hearing that scientists were trying to make human food from alfalfa, that "alfalfa" was not a euphemism for "manure".... >A related topic is that some people think that "testy" comes from >"testis" (thinking it means you behave more like a stallion than a >gelding) and "crotchety" comes from the crotch of the body (thinking >that it means irritable). Another is that a student was shocked that I >used the expression "shoot one's wad". A cow orker of mine once stopped by my desk, worried that in using the phrase "belly-up" he had made an inappropriately coarse sexual reference....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >>So the OED does NOT have the "bird sh.t" definition? Tsk, tsk. That has >>been in wide use in BrE for a LONG time. >> >That was the definition I had in mind. I've never heard it. I only know the dictionary meaning. David >>Some foods or drinks > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It took more than a few minutes to rid myself of the droppings of > that unpleasant thought. What the heck is "egg lime"? Google mostly brings up hits on sex toys when I search that phrase; a search at foodreference.com shows nothing, as does freedictionary.com. SignatureBlinky RLU 297263 Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html >>Some foods or drinks > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It took more than a few minutes to rid myself of the droppings of > that unpleasant thought. The kind of thought that sticks. We don't keep bird lime in our pantry. Maybe I should check the fridge. SignatureRob Bannister |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.