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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007"Golden dancer"
Hi, here's a question about the - just great - movie "Inherit the Wind". In a scene where Brady and Drummond have a conversation on a porch, Drummond tells a story from his childhood. He wanted to have a special toy by then which - judging by the context - is a rocking horse but he calls it a "golden dancer". I had to re-translate it from German and I'm aware of the many translation mistakes that exist in the movies, but it is definitely this phrase. So, how is a rocking horse a "dancer"? Could it be a horse standing on his back feet or something? On 16 Jan 2007, Lothar Frings wrote > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > So, how is a rocking horse a "dancer"? Could it be a > horse standing on his back feet or something? Golden Dancer was the name of a specific horse -- he won European dressage competitions and that sort of thing.  SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > Golden Dancer was the name of a specific horse -- he won European > dressage competitions and that sort of thing. Ah, thank you. So some mildly retarded translator translated the name, too. But there's one thing I don't understand: The movie plays in 1925 but it was created in 1999. Obviously the '99 public is supposed to know this horse. Is it that famous? Or perhaps the original English text supplies some explanation which has been lost in translation. da_lodda@gmx.de had it: > > Golden Dancer was the name of a specific horse -- he won European > > dressage competitions and that sort of thing. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is it that famous? Or perhaps the original English text > supplies some explanation which has been lost in translation. The 1999 audience would not have recognised the name (I never heard it), but the original English would give a clue that he was talking about a specific *model* of horse. Something like: "I asked for a rocking horse - a Golden Dancer" or "I asked for a Golden Dancer rocking horse". You can't hear the capital letters but the audience would know that he wanted the Golden Dancer model, even if they had no idea what this referred to. SignatureDavid ===== > On 16 Jan 2007, Lothar Frings wrote > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Golden Dancer was the name of a specific horse -- he won European > dressage competitions and that sort of thing. Wrong era, I'm afraid. The only mention I see of such a horse is the *1996* European Dressage Pony Champion. "Inherit the Wind" with Spencer Tracy was made in 1960. The stage play was written in 1955. Whereas I see any number of people saying that "Golden Dancer" was the name given to the character's particular childhood rocking horse. Such as: There's this bit in the movie I had forgotten, where the lawyer for the Christians asks the lawyer for the science teacher why he wants to take "the beautiful dream" away from the Christians, especially since it's all they have. "Like my Golden Dancer," says the lawyer for the science teacher wistfully. "Huh?" The science lawyer tells about Golden Dancer, a rocking horse he had longed for as a child, how beautiful it was in the store window, how much he wanted it, how it shone in the sunlight. Glittering stirrups, gilded saddle, the works. Then he gets it, Christmas morning, leaps on it, starts to rock, it falls to bits: it's made of wax and glue and pressed board. It's a lie, a sham. It won't hold together. Even if it's all they have, if it's not the truth, we don't teach it. What's true: that's what we teach in the schools. That's what will get them through. To get any closer, one would to look at the play or movie script. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux On 16 Jan 2007, Donna Richoux wrote >> On 16 Jan 2007, Lothar Frings wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > with Spencer Tracy was made in 1960. The stage play was written > in 1955. Good point; it was an immediate (and erroneous) reaction on my part. Sorry. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > Wrong era, I'm afraid. The only mention I see of such a horse is the > *1996* European Dressage Pony Champion. "Inherit the Wind" with Spencer > Tracy was made in 1960. The stage play was written in 1955. What I've seen is the TV version from 1999, with Jack Lemmon. I guess the whole problem arises from the translation of the proper name. One more snippet: > Then he gets it, Christmas morning, leaps on it, > starts to rock, it falls to bits: it's made of wax > and glue and pressed board. It's a lie, a sham. It > won't hold together. He said "It wasn't Christmas, for sure - my birthday maybe." German version, of course. Thanks for your input! > > Wrong era, I'm afraid. The only mention I see of such a horse is the > > *1996* European Dressage Pony Champion. "Inherit the Wind" with Spencer [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > He said "It wasn't Christmas, for sure - my birthday maybe." > German version, of course. Okay, that could certainly be viewer error. The association of gift toys with Christmas is strong. The "Enote" site looks like it tries to be careful about such things, and it says: Act Three Bert and Drummond discuss the possible outcome of the trial. Drummond tells Bert about a toy rocking horse he received as a childhood birthday present from his parents. The horse, which he named Golden Dancer, was beautiful, yet when he tried to actually ride the horse, it broke in two. The whole incident sounds like the playwright's imagination, frankly. A colorful bit of analogy was needed. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > > In a scene where Brady and Drummond have a conversation > > > on a porch, Drummond tells a story from his childhood. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Wrong era, I'm afraid. The only mention I see of such a horse is the > *1996* European Dressage Pony Champion. And what a beautiful one it seems to have been: http://www.sportpony.de/html/aufzucht/zweijahrige/images/GoldenDancer_000.jpg Marius Hancu >>>> In a scene where Brady and Drummond have a conversation >>>> on a porch, Drummond tells a story from his childhood. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > And what a beautiful one it seems to have been: > http://www.sportpony.de/html/aufzucht/zweijahrige/images/GoldenDancer_000.jpg Why, that looks exactly like the one that inspired ... My lovely horse, running through the field. Where are you going with your fetlocks blowing in the wind? I want to shower you with sugar lumps, and ride you over fences. Polish your hooves every single day, and bring you to the horse dentist. My lovely horse, you're a pony no more. Running around with a man on your back, like a train in the night, yeah like a train in the night... SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >So, how is a rocking horse a "dancer"? Could it be a >horse standing on his back feet or something? I haven't seen the movie. "Golden Dancer" looks like a name given to a particular design of rocking horse. This website lists various types of antique rocking horses for sale. Each type has a name, for example: George, Karma, Charlie, Farouk, Chaplin, Jonah, Grundy, Gilder, etc., made by the firm F. H. Ayres: http://www.everythingrockinghorse.co.uk/index.htm SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > So, how is a rocking horse a "dancer"? Could it be a > horse standing on his back feet or something? Translating back and forth is always going to lead to trouble. If you want to know what something means - find the original. I can't see a full script to the movie on-line but several sites offer quotes including that speech. This seems to be the commonly accepted version: "That was the name of my first long shot: 'Golden Dancer.' She was in the big side window of the general store in Wakeman, Ohio. I used to stand out in the street and say to myself, 'If I had Golden Dancer, I'd have everything in the world I desire [in some versions "everything I wanted"].' I was seven years old and a very fine judge of rocking horses. Golden Dancer had a bright red mane, blue eyes, and she was gold all over, with purple spots. When the sun hit the stirrups, she was a dazzling sight. But she was a week's wages for my father. So Golden Dancer and I always had a plate glass window between us. But let's see -- it wasn't Christmas -- it must have been my birthday. I woke up in the morning, and there was Golden Dancer at the foot of my bed. Ma had skimped on the groceries, and my father had worked nights for a month. I jumped into the saddle and started to rock -- and it broke! It split in two! The wood was rotten; the whole thing was put together with spit and sealing wax! All shine, and no substance." So it's patently obvious that "Golden Dancer" is the name of the rocking horse - maybe the name of that model of horse, maybe an actual name bestowed by the store. So he doesn't call it "a golden dancer", he calls it "Golden Dancer" and that indefinite article (or its absence) makes all the difference. Some mistake was made along the line, either on the translation into German or the translation back out. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > Translating back and forth is always going to lead to trouble. If you want > to know what something means - find the original. > I can't see a full script to the movie on-line but several sites offer > quotes including that speech. This seems to be the commonly accepted > version: [...] Thanks for your effort. To make up for it, I made a transscript of the crucial part of the conversation on the porch as it is in the 1999 TV version, including the last portion - it is worth it. B.: They need something to believe in, something gorgeous. They search for and want something that's better than what they have. D.: Ha, window shopping for the blessedness. B.: Why do you want to take that from them anyway? It is all they have - it's almost a... golden goblet of hope. D.: Yes, like my Golden Dancer. B.: Your what?! D.: Golden Dancer. He[*] stood in a big window in the old department store in Wakeman, Ohio, and I stood in the street and looked at him. And said "I really want to have just this Golden Dancer and I'd abdicate to everything else in the world." The Golden Dancer... I was seven years old and an expert in the field of rocking horses. [lengthy description] But he'd cost a week's salary of my father so there was a store window between me and the Golden Dancer. Yes, and then, one morning - well, definitely not Christmas, probably my birthday, well, anyway, I woke up and there, right beside by bed, stood the Golden Dancer. Yes. My mother had been skimping with the groceries, my father had worked night shifts for a month - anyway, I hopped into the saddle and started to rock - and he broke in two. The wood was rotten. They had cobbled the thing together with spittle and shellac[**]. All glamour and no substance. So whenever I see something like that - so beautiful and shinyly polished and allegedly perfect - gold as far as the eye can reach, with red speckles - then I'd look behind the curtain. And if there is nothing I'll disclose it as a wind egg[***]. You say you give hope to the people. I think you're stealing the last of it from them. And as long as the prerequisite for their shiny paradise is intolerance and everything promoting it, like poverty, bigotry, and hate, it can go to blazes. ----- [*] Should this be "it"? [**] Maybe the original has a figure of speech here. [***] Is this term used in English, too, for "something without real value"? >> Translating back and forth is always going to lead to trouble. If you want >> to know what something means - find the original. [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > intolerance and everything promoting it, like poverty, bigotry, > and hate, it can go to blazes. "Golden Dancer" is clearly the name of a particular model of rocking horse. >----- >[*] Should this be "it"? "He" is fine if the horse is a representation of a stallion, a male. This is normal. Objects such as statutes, figurines, childrens' dolls are frequently referred to as "he" or "she" according to the gender of what they represent. >[**] Maybe the original has a figure of speech here. The suggestion is that "spittle", which is a very weak adhesive, has been used instead of proper glue. "Shellac" has been used as an outer coating to hide the deficiences in materials and construction. >[***] Is this term used in English, too, for "something without real >value"? It is an old phrase that is no longer used, as far as I know. A search at OneLook.com finds three dictionary entries: Webster's 1828 Dictionary http://tinyurl.com/yoqrq8 WIND-EGG, n. [wind and egg.] An addle egg. Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898: http://www.bartleby.com/81/17512.html Here is the wording from the 1999 print edition: An egg without a shell, or with a soft shell, or an unfertilized one, from the old superstition that the hen that lays it was impregnated by the wind. Dictionary.com combines those definitions: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wind%20egg Wind egg, an imperfect, unimpregnated, or addled egg. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) ... > >D.: Golden Dancer. He[*] stood in a big window in the old department > > store in Wakeman, Ohio, and I stood in the street and looked > > at him. And said "I really want to have just this Golden Dancer > > and I'd abdicate to everything else in the world." The Golden > > Dancer... I was seven years old and an expert in the field of > > rocking horses. ... > >[*] Should this be "it"? > > "He" is fine if the horse is a representation of a stallion, a male. > This is normal. Objects such as statutes, figurines, childrens' > dolls are frequently referred to as "he" or "she" according to the > gender of what they represent. I'd add that it's very common for Americans to refer to any animal as "he" unless it's really obviously female (nursing, for instance, or somebody's pet with a female name). SignatureJerry Friedman > I'd add that it's very common for Americans to refer to any animal as > "he" unless it's really obviously female (nursing, for instance, or > somebody's pet with a female name). Except cats-- all cats are 'she' until you specifically learn otherwise. -=Eric >> I'd add that it's very common for Americans to refer to any animal >> as "he" unless it's really obviously female (nursing, for instance, >> or somebody's pet with a female name). > > Except cats-- all cats are 'she' until you specifically learn > otherwise. Which can, apparently take quite a long time. I recall being at a friend's house[1], and heard her refer to her cat as "she". Said feline was, at that moment, laying supine on my lap getting a belly rub, and the pronoun was clearly inapplicable. Apparently, my friend had never noticed. [1] She was in college at the time and was there visiting her parents, but I'm pretty sure they had the cat before she left. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |English grammar is not taught in 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |primary or secondary schools in the Palo Alto, CA 94304 |United States. Sometimes some |mythology is taught under that kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |rubric, but luckily it's usually (650)857-7572 |ignored, except by the credulous. | John Lawler http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >Except cats-- all cats are 'she' until you specifically learn >otherwise. Is this pondian? I've never noticed it here, amd I wouldn't say it myself. David >> Except cats-- all cats are 'she' until you specifically learn >> otherwise. > > Is this pondian? I've never noticed it here, amd I wouldn't say it > myself. I think it's now old-fashioned in BrEtcE, but, yes, it used to be common. I don't do it myself, for example. OED says: < c. Used of animals of the female sex. Also (esp. in rustic use) of certain animals (e.g. the cat, the hare) the names of which have a quasi-grammatical feminine gender exc. when a male is specifically referred to. c1386 CHAUCER Sqr.'s T. 409 And euere in oon she [the falcon] cryde alwey and shrighte, And with hir beek hir seluen so she prighte, That [etc.]. c1410 Master of Game (MS. Digby 182) i, An hare shall dure well iiij. myle or more or lasse, and she be an olde hare mascle. 1486 Bk. St. Albans, Hawking cviii, She puttithouer when she Euoidith hir meete owte of hir goorge in to hir bowillis. 1576 TURBERV. Venerie lix. 162 Of the subtilties of an Hare, when she is runne and hunted. 1653 WALTON Angler vii[i]. 147 The Melter hovers over her all that time that she [the female pike] is casting her Spawn. 1665 J. NORTH in Extr. S.P. rel. Friends III. (1912) 234 Tennants and vassalls..who dare not say the Crow is blacke if they say shees white. 1860 READE Cloister & H. vii, She [a leopard] was chained to the huntsman. 1891 [D. JORDAN] ('Son of Marshes ') On Surrey Hills ii. (1892) 44 He [the sparrow-hawk], or 'she', as they say, will fly at anything.> SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Eric Schwartz: >>> Except cats-- all cats are 'she' until you specifically learn >>> otherwise. Mike Lyle: > I think it's now old-fashioned in BrEtcE, but, yes, it used to be > common. I don't do it myself, for example. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > quasi-grammatical feminine gender exc. when a male is specifically > referred to. Hares! I hadn't heard of it being done with them before. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "So *you* say." --Toddy Beamish msb@vex.net | (H.G. Wells, "The Man Who Could Work Miracles") > Eric Schwartz: > >>> Except cats-- all cats are 'she' until you specifically learn [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Hares! I hadn't heard of it being done with them before. Add to your store that the hare was traditionally known as "puss" in Br hunting circles. I assume it's connected in some way, though OED makes no comment. SignatureMike. >> Eric Schwartz: >> >>> Except cats-- all cats are 'she' until you specifically learn [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > hunting circles. I assume it's connected in some way, though OED makes > no comment. Bunny wabbits, yes. Hares? But we calls 'em jackrabbits. I assume that, as with a.ses, "jack"indicates the male. Maybe because of the long ears. > Bunny wabbits, yes. Hares? But we calls 'em jackrabbits. I assume > that, as with a.ses, "jack"indicates the male. Maybe because of the > long ears. The OED cites "jackrabbit" to 1863 and derives it from "jackass rabbit", cited to 1851, due to the long ears. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The reason that we don't have 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |"bear-proof" garbage cans in the Palo Alto, CA 94304 |park is that there is a significant |overlap in intelligence between the kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |smartest bears and the dumbest (650)857-7572 |humans. | Yosemite Park Ranger http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Except cats-- all cats are 'she' until you specifically learn >> otherwise. > > Is this pondian? I've never noticed it here, amd I wouldn't say it > myself. Although I'm sure you know that She is the cat's mother. It still seems to be used by those who wish to make money from the infatuation of ailurophiles. Adverts for cat food almost invariably speak of "she loves ..." and "she will enjoy ..." and "give her fresh, meaty ..." and stuff where the corresponding doggy sales pitch is "he" and "his". See, eg, the Whiskas UK site: http://www.whiskas.co.uk/whiskas/en-GB/MyCat/default.htm " ... tell us a bit about your cat (like what she's called). And if you want to see a picture of her on the site ..." Or the US: http://www.whiskas.com/article.aspx?cid=11 "If you have a kitten, a cat or a well-seasoned friend, you want to be there for her through thick and thin. " Whereas Australia seems to tend to http://www.whiskas.com.au/catcare/adult.asp?t=4 " If your cat has started a bad behaviour such as jumping on the kitchen bench or climbing the curtains, have a water pistol at the ready and squirt them when you see them doing it." SignatureJohn Dean Oxford John Dean filted: >>> Except cats-- all cats are 'she' until you specifically learn >>> otherwise. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >" ... tell us a bit about your cat (like what she's called). And if you want >to see a picture of her on the site ..." While I'm quite aware there are toms among the ever-changing colony that have taken over my patio, it's the females who make their presence known, e.g., by bringing over each new litter of kittens to play once they're old enough to open their eyes.... Spiders, on the other hand, are *always* female in my eyes...it's that "building a nest" thing....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > John Dean filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Spiders, on the other hand, are *always* female in my eyes...it's > that "building a nest" thing....r Not repeated exposure to Charlotte's Web? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford John Dean filted: >> Spiders, on the other hand, are *always* female in my eyes...it's >> that "building a nest" thing....r > >Not repeated exposure to Charlotte's Web? Nope...I don't think I heard of White in my first decade, at the end of which the habit was already in place....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Spiders, on the other hand, are *always* female in my eyes...it's that "building > a nest" thing....r Possibly also that "eating after sex" thing. The males don't last very long. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > ... > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "he" unless it's really obviously female (nursing, for instance, or > somebody's pet with a female name). Except that, for some strange reason, some people default to "she" for cats that are not obviously toms, perhaps reasoning that somehow dogs are to cats as boys are to girls inasmuch as both represent oppositions learned in early childhood. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >... > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >"he" unless it's really obviously female (nursing, for instance, or >somebody's pet with a female name). That opens an unexpected memory door. We acquired neighbours years ago who'd moved from a fairly poor part of town (Reading, England) to share our rural retreat. Among the animals they kept was a nanny-goat named Matilda (which along with their geese murdered our garden, but that's not the point), and they would persist in calling her 'he'. We couldn't understand the thought processes involved. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! > In message <1169146104.099647.200940@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>, > "jerry_friedman@yahoo.com" [...] [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > garden, but that's not the point), and they would persist in calling > her 'he'. We couldn't understand the thought processes involved. Isn't that fairly standard Burrks? Heard in Devon, too: for example, from the lips of Johnny Kingdom. (This Johnny Kingdom, for those who don't know, is a recent delightful arrival on UK television screens: a genuine unself-conscious village type, gravedigger, ex-poacher, etc, who stalks deer on Exmoor with a camera, and burbles artlessly in a fine mid-Devon accent.) SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> In message <1169146104.099647.200940@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>, >> "jerry_friedman@yahoo.com" [...] [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >stalks deer on Exmoor with a camera, and burbles artlessly in a fine >mid-Devon accent.) I could accept 'he' for inanimates, like tha' owd pleough yonder, 'e's paarst 'is sell-boy, but for Mistress Matilda? A horse of another colour. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! > >[*] Should this be "it"? > > "He" is fine if the horse is a representation of a stallion, a male. > This is normal. Objects such as statutes, figurines, childrens' > dolls are frequently referred to as "he" or "she" according to the > gender of what they represent. BTW: In the song "The Unknown Stuntman" by Lee Majors it says "...'cause I'm the unknown stuntman that made Redford such a star." A stuntman is clearly human and in this case clearly male. So is this "that" wrong and should rather be a "who"? Lothar Frings: > BTW: In the song "The Unknown Stuntman" by > Lee Majors it says [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > A stuntman is clearly human and in this case clearly male. Yes. > So is this "that" wrong and should rather be a "who"? No. "Which" is for things and "who" is for people[1], but "that" is for either. However, some people prefer to avoid using "that" for people. [1] Sometimes also for pets, computer programs, and so on, if they are being viewed as people. SignatureMark Brader | "Don't get me wrong, perl is an OK operating system, Toronto | but it lacks a lightweight scripting language." msb@vex.net | -- Walter Dnes >> Translating back and forth is always going to lead to trouble. If >> you want to know what something means - find the original. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of the crucial part of the conversation on the porch as it is in the > 1999 TV version, including the last portion - it is worth it. It looks like a translation from the German. What I am trying to say to you is that you should find the *original* version in English and work from that. The translation you quote here as some clear inaccuracies and several infelicities. "I'd abdicate to everything else in the world" is especially meaningless. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > It looks like a translation from the German. It is. > What I am trying to say to you > is that you should find the *original* version in English and work from > that. The translation you quote here as some clear inaccuracies and several > infelicities. Doubtless. I just wanted to show how the "Golden Dancer" came into the play. But I think we resolved the matter now. > "I'd abdicate to everything else in the world" is especially meaningless. Sorry, I wasn't sure which word to use for "verzichten" - I found so many words it was a little difficult to choose. But looking up "to abdicate" shows that it is doubless the wrong word. The phrase should mean "I would not want anything else in the world anymore." [...] > Sorry, I wasn't sure which word to use for "verzichten" - I found > so many words it was a little difficult to choose. "Go without" or "do without" often works. > But looking > up "to abdicate" shows that it is doubless the wrong word. > The phrase should mean "I would not want anything else > in the world anymore." SignatureLes > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> The phrase should mean "I would not want anything else >> in the world anymore." "renounce" might cover both the "abdicate" and the "(choose to) do without" meanings, in a pinch. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "renounce" might cover both the "abdicate" and the "(choose to) do > without" meanings, in a pinch. There's also "forsake", which even looks rather like the German word, although I don't think they're cognates. It's familiar from the marriage vows, and I think it would fit: "I'd forsake everything else in the world." >>> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > marriage vows, and I think it would fit: "I'd forsake everything else > in the world." The trouble with "renounce" and "forsake" is that, in today's cultural climate, a young lad of rocking-horse age using such words at school would run the risk of being taken behind the bike sheds and beaten up by his peers during break. SignatureLes >>>> [...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > at school would run the risk of being taken behind the bike sheds > and beaten up by his peers during break. Yabbut (reserving the fact that this was yesterday's climate, because they would have bikeshedded him then too, and continuing a discussion become somewhat academic since John Dean posted the original English version), the lad had only to dumbly feel the word; it's a crusading lawyer that's saying it. In the abstract, then, I still like the resonance of "forsake" with "forsaking all others". >>>>> [...] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > In the abstract, then, I still like the resonance of "forsake" with > "forsaking all others". If I hold a brief for "renounce" it it because (1) it is one of the dictionary translations of German "verzichten" (2) if you squint at it sideways hard enough, it can be made to cover most, maybe even all, of the semantic scope of "verzichten", and therefore (3) if you want to memorize a single English word as the meaning of "verzichten" that will enable you to grasp the sense of the latter when you encounter it in German writing or speech, "renounce" recommends itself as a leading candidate for that purpose. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. [best English equivalent for "verzichten", if we were going to need one, which we aren't right now] >> In the abstract, then, I still like the resonance of "forsake" with >> "forsaking all others". [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > when you encounter it in German writing or speech, "renounce" > recommends itself as a leading candidate for that purpose. The last, and most advanced, thing I ever read in German was a simplified version of _Emil und die Detektive_*, about fifty years ago; I didn't have to squint at it, because it wasn't even in Fraktur. I know when I'm beaten. *Folgt uns keiner, Brillenschlange? CDB worte: > The last, and most advanced, thing I ever read in German was a > simplified version of _Emil und die Detektive_*, about fifty years > ago; I didn't have to squint at it, because it wasn't even in Fraktur. > I know when I'm beaten. Good choice. One astonishing thing about Erich K?stner's[*] children's books is that you take them for children's books when you're a child and when you're an adult, you recognize that they aren't. ----- [*] By the way: Do you see the umlaut, or would it be better to write "Kaestner"? [Erich Kästner, a good choice] Yes, I found _Emil_ much more interesting than the usual teaching text. I was sorry when scheduling problems forced me to drop my high-school German course. > By the way: Do you see the umlaut, or would it be > better to write "Kaestner"? I see it, but I understand some people don't. I'm not sure what they see instead. I'm guilty of using diacritic marks myself. [...] > If I hold a brief for "renounce" it it because (1) it is one of the > dictionary translations of German "verzichten" (2) if you squint at it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > or speech, "renounce" recommends itself as a leading candidate for that > purpose. For that purpose, I'm inclined to agree; JFTSOI, here is a (not necessarily exhaustive) list of possibilities for when an in-context non-ephemeral translation is required: <http://tinyurl.com/3b9o6r> SignatureLes >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "renounce" might cover both the "abdicate" and the "(choose to) do > without" meanings, in a pinch. Or we could avoid the problem by remembering that the original English was "'If I had Golden Dancer, I'd have everything in the world I desire [in some versions "everything I wanted"].'" and that someone translated it into German and then it was translated back into English as ""I'd abdicate to everything else in the world"". In the process, someone introduced "verzichten" which was unnecessary and now we're wondering how to translate it back when, frankly, there's no need and no point. IMHO. HAND HTH HUH. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > Or we could avoid the problem by remembering that the original English was > "'If I had Golden Dancer, I'd have > everything in the world I desire [in some versions "everything I wanted"].'" > and that someone translated it into German and then it was translated back > into English as ""I'd abdicate to everything else in the world"". We could, but I'd have learned a lot less that way. > [...] > > > Sorry, I wasn't sure which word to use for "verzichten" - I found > > so many words it was a little difficult to choose. > > "Go without" or "do without" often works. This is also new to me: I'd use "to do without" in a case when you need, for example, a tool or something but don't have it right now, so you have to "do without (it?)". > > [...] > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > when you need, for example, a tool or something but > don't have it right now, so you have to "do without (it?)". Old piece of Yankee advice on thrift: Use it up. Wear it out. Make it do Or do without. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Lothar Frings: > Thanks for your effort. To make up for it, I made a transscript That's an interesting error. "Make up for" can mean "compensate for", but only in the sense of offsetting a weakness or deficiency, not in the sense of payment. I would say "in return for it" or just "in return". By the way, "trans-" becomes "tran-" before an S. Transcript. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "I don't _want_ people using Linux for ideological msb@vex.net | reasons. I think ideology sucks." -- Torvalds |
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