Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching
Learnglish.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

agreement

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
grant - 16 Jan 2007 23:51 GMT
My boss said the following, but I think he misspoke:

"It is the career opportunities, the nurturing opportunities, the
events that you get to participate in, and the friends that you get to
make for a lifetime that differentiates this program."

Shouldn't he have said "differentiate"?

Thank you, wise and learned ones.
Robert Lieblich - 17 Jan 2007 00:15 GMT
> My boss said the following, but I think he misspoke:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Shouldn't he have said "differentiate"?

Probably because by the time he reached the end of the sentence, he
had lost track of the beginning.  Standard English requires a plural
verb there.

It's possible that the boss thought he had to use a singular verb
because the subject of the sentence was the singular pronoun "it."
This is a misconception.  "It" is a dummy subject, a placeholder for
the true subject, which in this sentence is a compound subject
containing "opportunities" (twice), "events," and "friends."  The true
subject is plainly plural.  The relative pronoun "that" has the entire
compound true subject as its antecedent and therefore is also plural.
Ergo, the verb of the dependent clause should be plural.

A bit more detail:  The verb of the principal clause is "is," a
singlar.  The verb is invariably singular when a sentence begins with
the dummy subject "it."  But the singular nature of the dummy subject
governs only the verb that follows it, not the entire sentence.  In
the example sentence, you can see a very plural true subject following
the singular dummy subject "it" and its verb "is."  This is completely
standard.  Indeed, you cannot replace "It is" with the plural "They
are" even if the true subject is plural.  Try it on the example
sentence and you'll see what I mean.

> Thank you, wise and learned ones.

I think you've seriously overrated us, but you're welcome nonetheless.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Subject dummy

Pat Durkin - 17 Jan 2007 01:06 GMT
>> My boss said the following, but I think he misspoke:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> had lost track of the beginning.  Standard English requires a plural
> verb there.

> A bit more detail:  The verb of the principal clause is "is," a
> singlar.  The verb is invariably singular when a sentence begins with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> are" even if the true subject is plural.  Try it on the example
> sentence and you'll see what I mean.

Ah, but doesn't that last depend on the question being asked?  "What is
it/What are they that makes/make this program different?"  Context.  We
don't know if there was a question, even.
Robert Lieblich - 17 Jan 2007 03:38 GMT
[ ... ]

> > A bit more detail:  The verb of the principal clause is "is," a
> > singlar.  The verb is invariably singular when a sentence begins with
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> it/What are they that makes/make this program different?"  Context.  We
> don't know if there was a question, even.

There is a specific sentence under consideration.  Here it is again:
""It is the career opportunities, the nurturing opportunities, the
events that you get to participate in, and the friends that you get
to make for a lifetime that differentiates [sic] this program."  The
OP asked whether "differentiates" is wrong, and of course it is, and I
explained why -- probably at more length than was necessary.

That particular sentence, be it noted, begins "It is," and, as in many
sentences with that beginning, "it" is the dummy subject but not the
true one.  In questions beginning "What is it that ...,' "what" is the
subject, the true subject, and "it" is a predicate nominative.  In
sentences of that form. "that" and all that follows make up a
dependent clause modifying "it."  I suppose there may be other ways to
analyze "What is it that ..." questions,  but I don't think you'll
find that "it" is the dummy subject in any of them.[1]  Note also that
in the original example, there's a long true subject between "it" and
"that," whereas in the "What is it that ... " question there's no such
true subject, only "what" and "it" and the modifying dependent clause.

I was talking only about the "It is <true subject>" form, which is the
specific form the OP asked about.  Other forms, other analyses.

[1]  Maybe you prefer to call "it" the true subject and "what" a
dummy.  But no matter how you parse, "it" can't be the dummy subject
in that sort of sentence.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Grammar books at twenty paces

Fred - 17 Jan 2007 04:12 GMT
>> My boss said the following, but I think he misspoke:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> standard.  Indeed, you cannot replace "It is" with the plural "They
> are" even if the true subject is plural.

But could you not replace 'it is' with 'there are'?
Robert Lieblich - 17 Jan 2007 04:32 GMT
Robert Lieblich wrote:

[ ... ]

> > A bit more detail:  The verb of the principal clause is "is," a
> > singlar.  The verb is invariably singular when a sentence begins with
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> But could you not replace 'it is' with 'there are'?

Yes, you could not.

Actually, the answer is both yes and no.  Here is that sentence yet
again: "It is the career opportunities, the nurturing opportunities,
the events that you get to participate in, and the friends that you
get to make for a lifetime that differentiates [sic] this program."
If you replace "It" as dummy subject with "There" and change the verb
from "is" to "are," what you get is unidiomatic.  But, strangely
enough, if you use "There are" to indicate the location of something,
rather than as dummy subject, the same sentence becomes idiomatic.
But that makes this particular sentence quite implausible, because now
you're metaphorically pointing at all the items that follow "There
are," and that collection of items isn't sitting there, even
metaphorically, for anyone to point at.  Compare: "There are the ten
paintings that I bought at the auction," which has the same structure,
including the use of "there" to indicate location rather than as dummy
subject.

It's a slippery area of usage, because whether something is idiomatic
or not depends at least in part on the semantic meaning of its
component parts.

I thought I knew where you could find a good online article about
this, but I'm unable to turn one up.  Maybe someone else can help.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Close to confusing even himself

Pat Durkin - 17 Jan 2007 00:36 GMT
> My boss said the following, but I think he misspoke:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Shouldn't he have said "differentiate"?

Yes, but. . .

You wish to correct wording that is spoken, and perhaps extemporaneous.
It seems to me that you are expecting quite a lot of your boss to be
grammatically perfect, if, in the process of expressing a long and
complex idea he simply loses track of his opening clause.  That happens
to many of us.

First of all, you haven't shown us how accurate your recollection is.
Did you tape his speech?

Nextly, since he started out with "It is", then finishing it with "that
differentiates this program" is good.

Further, he could have thought of all of these "items" as one thing--"It
is".  "It is the accumulation of (the amassing of, the application of)
etc."

In addition, some usage rules are very flexible, allowing verb agreement
with the last item in a phrase or series, (even if the item is not the
actual subject of the verb):  ". . .lifetime that differentiates. . ."
Robert Lieblich - 17 Jan 2007 03:43 GMT
> > My boss said the following, but I think he misspoke:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> with the last item in a phrase or series, (even if the item is not the
> actual subject of the verb):  ". . .lifetime that differentiates. . ."

I'm not going to add yet more weight to this thread, but I wish to
register my dissent from everything Pat ays following "Nextly."[1]
IMO, what he's describing is the etiology of various errors.  If
there's anything left of English grammar at all, the only correct verb
form for the dependent clause is the plural -- "terminate."

Hey, Franke, where are you when I need you?

[1]  I'd also like to dissent from "Nextly."

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Loose, maybe, but not totally disjointed

cybercypher - 17 Jan 2007 03:17 GMT
>> > My boss said the following, but I think he misspoke:
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Hey, Franke, where are you when I need you?

You don't need me, Your Honor. Your analysis is fuller and more
convincing than mine would be. I agree with you fully here: the
plural verb is called for, even in spoken English, but we know that
speakers lose the threads of their sentences -- especially the long
and rambling ones -- when they speak and make these understandable
errors.

> [1]  I'd also like to dissent from "Nextly."

How can one dissent from comedy? If Pat meant what he said, then he's
playing Yorick for the bathroom mirror. I see it as a simple American
slap ("aluminiumism" rather than "irony") at the "firstly," etc.
convention.

Signature

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
"If you are still not convinced of the a.s-brain connection, finish
this sentence: 'It is easier to think after I … (a) get a haircut    
(b) take a dump'." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 12 Jan 2007;  
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/
teranews now charges a one-time US$3.95 setup fee

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2012 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.