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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007either means each?
In a P. G. Wodehouse story (Sir Agravaine) I see the statement From either end of the arena a mounted knight had appeared. I'm used to thinking of either as being contrary to both, so I picture a single knight appearing by himself at one end of the arena, with which end unspecified. I know what Plum is trying to say, but shouldn't he have said From each end of the arena a mounted knight had appeared. If a mounted knight appeared at either end, that says to me that sometimes he appeared at one end and sometimes the other. Is this maybe another one of those transpondencies? Algun Desconocido wrote: > In a P. G. Wodehouse story (Sir Agravaine) I see the > statement [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Is this maybe another one of those transpondencies? From M-W Online: "Either: 1 : being the one and the other of two : EACH <flowers blooming on either side of the walk." <http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=either> From Compact Oxford: "Either: one or the other of two people or things. 2 each of two." <http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/either?view=uk>. What the dictionaries say is consistent with my own understanding of the usage of the word, as also it appears to be with Wodehouse's. Looks like Plum was as idiomatic as always. Looks also as if there's no Pondian difference here.  SignatureBob Lieblich Hi, Tootsie > Algun Desconocido wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Looks like Plum was as idiomatic as always. Looks also as if there's > no Pondian difference here. Thank you. (I like your alternation between like as a conjunction and its replacement by the as if that would warm miss Thistlebottom's heart. I'm sure you did it intentionally.) But I still think either can be used with one of its dictionary meanings in a certain situation and still strike a reader as odd. It's the ambiguity that does it. A knight entered at either end can mean a single knight entered at whichever end happened to suit him at the moment or it can mean two knights entered, one at each end. It struck me thusly. Bottom line is Plum would have been clearer if he had said a knight entered at each end. I think so anyway. > > > In a P. G. Wodehouse story (Sir Agravaine) I see the > > > statement [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > its replacement by the as if that would warm miss > Thistlebottom's heart. I'm sure you did it intentionally.) Of course it was intentional. Didn't Freud teach us that nothing is an accident. Actually, thinking back on it, I think what led to the difference was the intervention of "also" in the second sentence. "Looks like" is very idiomatic even there's still some residual resistance to it in place of "Looks as if." But when you put anything between the two words it loses just enough idiomaticity to make "as if" preferable to "like." That may seem farfetched, but it's the only explanation I can think of (other than sheer carelessness, and that would greatly disappoint Freud). > But I still think either can be used with one of its > dictionary meanings in a certain situation and still strike [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Bottom line is Plum would have been clearer if he had said a > knight entered at each end. I think so anyway. Well, I can't tell you what to think. I'd suggest, however, that if Wodehouse had meant a single knight at one end or the other, that's how he would have put it: "From one end of the arena or the other, a mounted knight had appeared." "From either end" isn't the way a native speaker would express that idea. Interesting question. Thanks for bringing it up. SignatureBob Lieblich Expressing his own opinion, to be sure > > > > In a P. G. Wodehouse story (Sir Agravaine) I see the > > > > statement [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > mounted knight had appeared." "From either end" isn't the way a > native speaker would express that idea. You may be right, but it seems to me a native speaker could say very idiomatically Knights entered from either end to mean knights had the option of entering either from the left or from the right. But, okay, it seems I should concede that in From either end of the arena a mounted knight had appeared either can only mean the same as each. > Interesting question. Thanks for bringing it up. And I thank either of the a.u.e. participants who has responded for his thoughtful remarks. > You may be right, but it seems to me a native speaker could > say very idiomatically Knights entered from either end to > mean knights had the option of entering either from the left > or from the right. It's possible (in the right context), but I'd tend to express that as "Knights entered from either one end or the other". Absent a context that suggests otherwise, "...from either end" means "from both ends" with just a simple verb like "entered". If it were "Knights could enter from either end", then it would mean one end or the other. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > > You may be right, but it seems to me a native speaker could > > say very idiomatically Knights entered from either end to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > both ends" with just a simple verb like "entered". If it were "Knights > could enter from either end", then it would mean one end or the other. It seems the possibilities range from completely unambiguous to completely ambiguous, with gradations in between. If I say There was a rose on either side of the hat that seems clearly to mean both sides and two roses altogether. But if I say You are to pin a rose on either side of the hat I don't think the person so instructed can possibly know without elucidation whether they are to pin two roses to the hat, one on each side, or one rose on whichever side the pinner chooses. In between could be Passengers entered through either gate where the meaning seems to be that the passengers had their choice of which gate to enter through, but it could possibly mean that each of the gates had passengers entering through it. I'm still thinking that Wodehouse would have done better to say each rather than either. Each is shorter and less ambiguous. I can't think of anything to argue in favor of saying either rather than each. > mounted knight had appeared." "From either end" isn't the way a > native speaker would express that idea. I think you have gone a bit too far there. The construction strikes me as slightly old-fashioned, but in no way non-native. SignatureRob Bannister > > mounted knight had appeared." "From either end" isn't the way a > > native speaker would express that idea. > > I think you have gone a bit too far there. The construction strikes me > as slightly old-fashioned, but in no way non-native. I think you snipped too much, Rob. I was limiting myself to one particular meaning (one knight coming from one end or the other) when I said "From either end" isn't how that idea is conveyed. Certainly there are plenty of contexts in which "From either end" (e.g., meaning "From each end") is just fine. If you understand that point and still think I have gone a bit too far -- well, then, we disagree. No big deal. SignatureBob Lieblich Functioning at his usual level of clarity >>>mounted knight had appeared." "From either end" isn't the way a >>>native speaker would express that idea. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > think I have gone a bit too far -- well, then, we disagree. No big > deal. As you say: no big deal. I know I wouldn't have written it that way myself, but I have no difficulty in understanding it. SignatureRob Bannister <snip> > But I still think either can be used with one of its > dictionary meanings in a certain situation and still strike [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mean two knights entered, one at each end. It struck me > thusly. Motivated by a more recent thread, I was looking up 'either' in the Oxford English Dictionary when I came across the following remarks that seem quite pertinent to this older thread: # In OE. and early ME. the word appears only in its # original sense each of two, or as adv. = both; # but about the beginning of 14th c. it assumed the # disjunctive sense one or the other of two (and # the corresponding adverbial use), <snip> This # disjunctive sense has so far prevailed that in # mod.Eng. such expressions as on either side = on # both sides are felt to be somewhat arch., and # must often be avoided on account of their # ambiguity. > In a P. G. Wodehouse story (Sir Agravaine) I see the > statement [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Is this maybe another one of those transpondencies? Either can mean both: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/ http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=24980&dict=CALD David In alt.usage.english, wrote: >> In a P. G. Wodehouse story (Sir Agravaine) I see the >> statement [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=24980&dict=CALD ITYM "either can mean either". SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > > In a P. G. Wodehouse story (Sir Agravaine) I see the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Is this maybe another one of those transpondencies? I'm not aware of any geographical associations. It's not the most common construction, which must be why it strikes you as odd, but it's common enough that native speakers who wouldn't be likely to say it themselves (like me) have no trouble understanding it. My hunch is that it's primarily said by people older than I am (52). Searching Google using the wildcard asterisk: "has a * at each end" 77,700 "has a * at either end" 13,100 Some examples of the latter: Model Airplane News It has a bushing at either end and is connected to the piston with a wristpin RAM Mount Arms 1-3/4 double socket arm (measured from socket center to socket center) has a socket at either end to allow a 1" ball accessories to be connected. ... In addition to four sets of sliding side doors, the bi-level has a door at either end to let passengers walk between cars It's definitely not a mistake. Nor is it limited to "end": The straight skirt is knee length and has a pleat at either side of the front The bag has a hole at either side for the feed pipe the frame has a vertical flange at either side SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > In a P. G. Wodehouse story (Sir Agravaine) I see the > statement [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Is this maybe another one of those transpondencies? I'm inclined to rationalize this by saying that you could have been looking at either end, and still have seen a knight appear. The same with the examples Donna had of mechanical things with the same feature at either end - you could take it from either end and it would be the same. In this usage, either implies both. However, if the original statement had not been in past perfect tense, another interpretation would be possible. Suppose it was describing the general case of whatever kind of festivities are being described, and said >From either end of the arena, a knight would appear. In that case, I would have to read it exactly as you said, implying 'not both'. -- John |
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