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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Chinese premier vs. China premier
I see very often the Chinese Premier in papers. I am wondering whether this expression is correct or not. Strictly speaking, the Chinese Premier does not necessary mean that he is the Premier of China, but he is the Premier whose race is Chinese. I thought that China Premier (or the Premier of China) could be correct but I did not see that expression in paper. Am I wrong on this one? (For example, Fujimori was the president of Peru but he is a Japanese. In my opinion, he was Japanese Premier of Peru). Craig > I see very often the Chinese Premier in papers. > I am wondering whether this expression is correct or not. > Strictly speaking, the Chinese Premier does not necessary mean that he is > the Premier of China, but he is the Premier whose race is Chinese. In this case you can think of it as applying to citizenship, not race. (By the way, it's usual to call "Chinese" an ethnicity or a nationality but not a race. I hope I'm not repeating myself on this subject.) > I thought that China Premier (or the Premier of China) could be correct but > I did not see that expression in paper. I was going to say that "China Premier" isn't any kind of English I've ever heard, but I Googled and found it in headlines, as this one from Harvard: <http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/12.11/01-china.html>. "China's Premier" and "the Premier of China" are fine. At Google, "Chinese Premier" is the most common, though. > Am I wrong on this one? > (For example, Fujimori was the president of Peru but he is a Japanese. In > my opinion, he was Japanese Premier of Peru). "President" isn't the same as "Premier"--some countries have one of each. Your phrase for Fujimori depends a lot on the article that you left out. "Fujimori was the Japanese President of Peru" implies (to me) that Peru had another president at the same time. "Fujimori has been the only Japanese President of Peru" is okay. "Fujimori was a Japanese President of Peru"--you might be able to say that in some contexts, maybe with some strain. For example "Some presidents are from small minorities. For instance, Fujimori was a Japanese President of Peru." But I'd be much more likely to say something like, "For instance, Fujimori, who's Japanese, was the president of Peru" or "...Peru had a Japanese president, Fujimori."  SignatureJerry Friedman Thanks Jerry, Actually, I meant "China's Premier" not China Premier while writing the post. I understand that China Premier is not correct. Craig >> I see very often the Chinese Premier in papers. >> I am wondering whether this expression is correct or not. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Fujimori, who's Japanese, was the president of Peru" or "...Peru had a > Japanese president, Fujimori." > Thanks Jerry, > > Actually, I meant "China's Premier" not China Premier while writing > the post. > I understand that China Premier is not correct. [...] Note also that, while "premier" is sometimes used for "prime minister", it most often refers to the first minister of an Australian state or Canadian province, with "Prime Minister" reserved for the national officer. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Mike Lyle: > Note also that, while "premier" is sometimes used for "prime minister", And vice versa. The usage "Prime Minister of Ontario" is not unknown. > it most often refers to the first minister of an Australian state or > Canadian province, with "Prime Minister" reserved for the national > officer. It's different with some foreign countries, though. Google counts: "Premier of China" 43,900 "Prime Minister of China" 23,000 "Prime Minister of France" 123,000 "Premier of France" 37,400 "Prime Minister of Italy" 101,000 "Premier of Italy" 12,000 But: "Prime Minister of Japan" 268,000 "Premier of Japan" 627 "Prime Minister of Russia" 48,500 "Premier of Russia" 655 "Prime Minister of Cambodia" 22,300 "Premier of Cambodia" 126 "Prime Minister of Egypt" 37,100 "Premier of Egypt" 351 "Prime Minister of Morocco" 11,600 "Premier of Morocco" 5 "Prime Minister of Tanzania" 12,700 "Premier of Tanzania" 8 I wonder if the difference between the first group and the second group of countries lies in the usage of their own governments when writing in English. SignatureMark Brader | "And so it went. Tens of thousands of messages, Toronto | hundreds of points of view. It was not called the msb@vex.net | Net of a Million Lies for nothing." --Vernor Vinge My text in this article is in the public domain. > I see very often the Chinese Premier in papers. > I am wondering whether this expression is correct or not. > Strictly speaking, the Chinese Premier does not necessary mean that he is > the Premier of China, but he is the Premier whose race is Chinese. . . . > (For example, Fujimori was the president of Peru but he is a Japanese. In > my opinion, he was Japanese Premier of Peru). Craig seems to expect more of the English language than it can be trusted by itself to deliver. Most of the time, Westerners would not say: Fujimori was the president of Peru but he is a Japanese; they might spontaeously say Fujimori was the president of Peru but he is Japanese but (anticipating this problem) are more likely to say Fujimori was the president of Peru but he is of Japanese ract (or origins or family, etc.) Aware of the problem at issue, English speakers usually reword what they are going to say in order to avoid ambiguity. No general rules of the language offer a single way out for all cases. The words for some nationalities by themselves solve it in advance. Thus we say Sr. Gomez is a Spaniard (the noun requiring the indefinite article) and Sr. Gomez is Spanish (the adjective requiring no artice.) Similar logic allows us to say both Mr. Chan is a Chinese and Mr. Chan is Chinese -- but it is unsafe to assume everyone else also makes the same distinction, so we usually try to reword our utterance to make it clear. (Perhaps things were simpler when we allowed the noun Chinaman cf. Frenchman, Dutchman, Mussulman etc.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) Don Phillipson wrote, in <eoohib$5jp$3@theodyn.ncf.ca> on Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:24:31 -0500: > > I see very often the Chinese Premier in papers. > > I am wondering whether this expression is correct or not. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > (Perhaps things were simpler when we allowed the noun > Chinaman cf. Frenchman, Dutchman, Mussulman etc.) I don't remember when it started happening but the British radio and TV news presenters nowadays take care to say "our Ireland correspondent" or "our Europe correspondent" rather then "Irish" or "European" which would sound more natural to me. SignatureNick Spalding >Don Phillipson wrote, in <eoohib$5jp$3@theodyn.ncf.ca> > on Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:24:31 -0500: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >"our Europe correspondent" rather then "Irish" or "European" which would >sound more natural to me. It must be a BBC thing. We've mentioned here before that their news website is always teeming with references to "the Greece prime minister" or "the India government's protests" and the like. SignatureArchie Valparaiso >I don't remember when it started happening but the British radio and TV >news presenters nowadays take care to say "our Ireland correspondent" or >"our Europe correspondent" rather then "Irish" or "European" which would >sound more natural to me. I understand and partly agree with that. Would the following sound unnatural? our Washington correspondent our Canberra correspondent our Dublin correspondent our Paris correspondent our London correspondent our Delhi correspondent and the like SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson wrote, in <o0qvq2ttl6v70qpr0oc98m4soh9qpc58mi@4ax.com> on Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:39:52 +0000: > >I don't remember when it started happening but the British radio and TV > >news presenters nowadays take care to say "our Ireland correspondent" or [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > our Delhi correspondent > and the like Not at all, but none of those except Paris has a common adjectival form as Ireland and Europe do. SignatureNick Spalding On 18 Jan 2007, Peter Duncanson wrote >> I don't remember when it started happening but the British >> radio and TV news presenters nowadays take care to say "our [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I understand and partly agree with that. Although it sounded odd when I first heard it, I realised a while back that it's quite impossible to fault this on any reasonable grounds of usage, logic, or clarity. It's clearly more accurate to refer to an English correspondent based in Paris as their "France correspondent" than their "French correspondent". SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > It's clearly more accurate to refer to an English correspondent > based in Paris as their "France correspondent" than their "French > correspondent". Is it okay to call the correspondent a "French speaker" if they can chat with the locals? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |On a scale of one to ten... 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |it sucked. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ On 20 Jan 2007, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote >> It's clearly more accurate to refer to an English correspondent >> based in Paris as their "France correspondent" than their "French >> correspondent". > > Is it okay to call the correspondent a "French speaker" if they can > chat with the locals? Sure, but "France speaker" -- speaker in France -- isn't a reasonable construction, whereas "France correspondent" (correspondent in France) is. The ambiguities, in the real world, aren't equal. SignatureCheers, Harvey >I don't remember when it started happening but the British radio and TV >news presenters nowadays take care to say "our Ireland correspondent" or >"our Europe correspondent" rather then "Irish" or "European" which would >sound more natural to me. It's not just nationalities. As a student in the sixties I worked in a "Physical Laboratory"; now, the corresponding place is the Physics Laboratory (or it was before physics was abolished). David >>I don't remember when it started happening but the British radio and TV >>news presenters nowadays take care to say "our Ireland correspondent" or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It's not just nationalities. As a student in the sixties I worked in a > "Physical Laboratory"; As opposed to a "Virtual Laboratory"? --Jeff SignatureThe shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their interests and his own are the same. --Stendhal In our last episode, <eoobqf$p8u$1@iruka.swcp.com>, the lovely and talented Craig broadcast on alt.usage.english: > I see very often the Chinese Premier in papers. > I am wondering whether this expression is correct or not. > Strictly speaking, the Chinese Premier does not necessary mean that he is > the Premier of China, but he is the Premier whose race is Chinese. No, strictly speaking, it doesn't. (And I know racists sometimes like to split hairs, but I have never heard anyone assert that Chinese is a race.) > I thought that China Premier (or the Premier of China) could be correct but > I did not see that expression in paper. > Am I wrong on this one? > (For example, Fujimori was the president of Peru but he is a Japanese. No. He isn't. He is Peruvian. "A Japanese" is not correct. And Japanese is a nationality. Does he have dual citizenship? > In my opinion, he was Japanese Premier of Peru). Craig Pity. SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner> "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait." -- Bush's Ambassador April Glaspie, giving Saddam Hussein the greenlight to invade Kuwait. >In our last episode, ><eoobqf$p8u$1@iruka.swcp.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >No, strictly speaking, it doesn't. (And I know racists sometimes like to >split hairs, but I have never heard anyone assert that Chinese is a race.) But Singaporeans spoke of their president as being Chinese, though not as the Chinese president. >> I thought that China Premier (or the Premier of China) could be correct but >> I did not see that expression in paper. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >> In my opinion, he was Japanese Premier of Peru). Craig As opposed to the Peruvian president of Japan. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >In our last episode, > ><eoobqf$p8u$1@iruka.swcp.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >No. He isn't. He is Peruvian. "A Japanese" is not correct. And Japanese > >is a nationality. While not commonly used, the expression "A Japanese" is correct as it is both an adjective and a noun. A similar comparison would be that you could say both "He is Canadian." and "He is a Canadian." Similarly to say that someone is "a Japanese" is correct. In our last episode, <1169209383.400117.99260@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and talented sgallagher@rogers.com broadcast on alt.usage.english: >> >In our last episode, >> ><eoobqf$p8u$1@iruka.swcp.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >No. He isn't. He is Peruvian. "A Japanese" is not correct. And Japanese >> >is a nationality. > While not commonly used, the expression "A Japanese" is correct as it > is both an adjective and a noun. A similar comparison would be that > you could say both "He is Canadian." and "He is a Canadian." Similarly > to say that someone is "a Japanese" is correct. So "He is an English" must be correct by the same argument. SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner> "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait." -- Bush's Ambassador April Glaspie, giving Saddam Hussein the greenlight to invade Kuwait. > In our last episode, > <1169209383.400117.99260@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, the lovely > and talented sgallagher@rogers.com broadcast on alt.usage.english: [Peru premiers, China oranges, English bodies] >> While not commonly used, the expression "A Japanese" is correct as >> it is both an adjective and a noun. A similar comparison would be >> that you could say both "He is Canadian." and "He is a Canadian." >> Similarly to say that someone is "a Japanese" is correct. > > So "He is an English" must be correct by the same argument. The wagon of analogy breaks down under the baggage of life. > In our last episode, <1169209383.400117.99260@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, > the lovely and talented sgallagher@rogers.com broadcast on [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > So "He is an English" must be correct by the same argument. No, the noun form would be Englishman. > While not commonly used, the expression "A Japanese" is correct as it > is both an adjective and a noun. A similar comparison would be that > you could say both "He is Canadian." and "He is a Canadian." Similarly > to say that someone is "a Japanese" is correct. To me, it sounds very odd using any of the "-ese" set of adjectives as nouns except in the plural. This has been discussed before at AUE, and I have a feeling a definitive statement was made, which of course I can't remember. It was something like "-ian and -an are fine as nouns, but many people feel uneasy with -ese and -ish" — being AUE, it was naturally far more complicated than that. SignatureRob Bannister >> While not commonly used, the expression "A Japanese" is correct as it >> is both an adjective and a noun. A similar comparison would be that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > many people feel uneasy with -ese and -ish" — being AUE, it was > naturally far more complicated than that. Speaking of "a Chinee" is now considered to be hopelessly old-fashioned. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. [...] > Speaking of "a Chinee" is now considered to be hopelessly old-fashioned. I've only ever come across that in the collocation "heathen Chinee", which may or may not derive from a music hall song and, in any case, would be Frowned Upon today. SignatureLes Lars Eighner filted: >In our last episode, ><eoobqf$p8u$1@iruka.swcp.com>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >No. He isn't. He is Peruvian. "A Japanese" is not correct. And Japanese >is a nationality. Does he have dual citizenship? Éamon de Valera was the Cuban president of Ireland...I guess he would have been "the Ireland president" but not "the Irish president"...similarly, Arnold Schwarzenegger is "the California governor" but not "the Californian governor" (that would have been Jerry Brown).... I've mentioned here before the character played by Emil Jannings in the movie "The Blue Angel"...the character was German; his profession was teaching English...it gets horribly confusing if you call him "the English teacher", but that's the most natural way to put it.... (The most convoluted case of this type may be a cover of "Fernando" I heard on Taiwan Radio a few years ago: a Chinese recording of an English song by Swedish composers about a Spanish revolutionary)....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Éamon de Valera was the Cuban president of Ireland... Note that it was an Irish-born man (the Duke of Wellington) who observed, "Because someone is born in a stable, that does not make him a horse." SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > > Éamon de Valera was the Cuban president of Ireland... > > Note that it was an Irish-born man (the Duke of > Wellington) who observed, "Because someone > is born in a stable, that does not make him a horse." Commonly said to be said by Vermonters: "If the cat had kittens in the oven, would you call them muffins?" SignatureSML Sara Lorimer filted: >> > Éamon de Valera was the Cuban president of Ireland... >> >> Note that it was an Irish-born man (the Duke of >> Wellington) who observed, "Because someone >> is born in a stable, that does not make him a horse." Was he referring to anyone in particular, do we know?...I know who comes to *my* mind first when the phrase "born in a stable" is raised.... >Commonly said to be said by Vermonters: "If the cat had kittens in the >oven, would you call them muffins?" Abe Lincoln, not a Vermonter, gets credit for (obAUE) "how many legs does a sheep have if you call the tail a leg?"...(answer: "four; calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one"...alternate (=BrE "alternative") answer: "you don't a sheep like that all at once")....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. R H Draney wrote, in <eoovp9022pe@drn.newsguy.com> on 18 Jan 2007 15:27:37 -0800: > Sara Lorimer filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Was he referring to anyone in particular, do we know?...I know who comes to *my* > mind first when the phrase "born in a stable" is raised.... He was referring to himself, born and brought up in Ireland, in response to someone who had spoken dismissively of him as an Irishman. > >Commonly said to be said by Vermonters: "If the cat had kittens in the > >oven, would you call them muffins?" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > doesn't make it one"...alternate (=BrE "alternative") answer: "you don't a sheep > like that all at once")....r SignatureNick Spalding > I see very often the Chinese Premier in papers. I am wondering > whether this expression is correct or not. Strictly speaking, the > Chinese Premier does not necessary mean that he is the Premier of > China, but he is the Premier whose race is Chinese. The adjective "Chinese" does not exclusively refer to people. It means anything that is of or from China, with any ambiguity usually resolved from context. Strictly speaking, "the Chinese Premier" _does_ mean "the Premier of China", even if the person holding that position came from Alpha Centauri. > I thought that China Premier (or the Premier of China) could be > correct but I did not see that expression in paper. It would be correct if the Premier were made of porcelain, but not otherwise. > (For example, Fujimori was the president of Peru but he is a > Japanese. In my opinion, he was Japanese Premier of Peru). To the best of my knowledge, Fujimori is not Japanese. His parents were Japanese, but they emigrated before he was born. (Besides, have you ever met a Japanese person called "Alberto"?) He was a Peruvian President who happened to have Japanese ancestry. The only way you could have a Japanese Premier of Peru would be if Japan invaded Peru and annexed the country. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > The adjective "Chinese" does not exclusively refer to people. It means > anything that is of or from China, with any ambiguity usually resolved > from context. Strictly speaking, "the Chinese Premier" _does_ mean "the > Premier of China", even if the person holding that position came from > Alpha Centauri I understand that. So does everybody. But when you refer somebody's official title, I would say that China's Premier would be more appropriate than Chinese Premier. China's premier explicitly indicates that the person is the premier of China and the head of China regardless whether the person is a Mongolian, Manchurian, Han, or other races in China. But in my opinion, Chinese Premier emphasizes the race rather than position of the Premier. Regarding Fujimori, he is a 100% full blood Japanese. His parents are full-blood Japanese. So he was addressed as the President of Peru. But in essence he is a Japanese. President of Peru indicates that the person is the President of Peru regardless of the person's racial category. But Peruvian President more sounds like the president is a REAL Peruvian (Indian, Indian-Spanish, or Spanish who inhibited in Peru for a long period of time). Japanese Premier of Peru implies and emphasizes that the person is a Japanese descendent in Peru. Therefore, I feel that China's or Ireland's Premier (or Premier of China or Ireland) is more suitable than Chinese or Irish Premier when referring to their government titles. Craig >> I see very often the Chinese Premier in papers. I am wondering >> whether this expression is correct or not. Strictly speaking, the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Japanese Premier of Peru would be if Japan invaded Peru and annexed the > country. >>The adjective "Chinese" does not exclusively refer to people. It means >>anything that is of or from China, with any ambiguity usually resolved [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > But in my opinion, Chinese Premier emphasizes the race rather than position > of the Premier. No more than the American President emphasizes, er, what exactly? If you say the Idiot President everyone immediately knows of whom you speak. --Jeff SignatureThe shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their interests and his own are the same. --Stendhal >>The adjective "Chinese" does not exclusively refer to people. It means >>anything that is of or from China, with any ambiguity usually resolved [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > But in my opinion, Chinese Premier emphasizes the race rather than position > of the Premier. Strange. I read "the American president" or "the British Prime Minister" regularly without thinking of race at all. SignatureRob Bannister > (For example, Fujimori was the president of Peru but he is a Japanese. In > my opinion, he was Japanese Premier of Peru). > Craig I think you're wrong.Despite Fujimore was born in Japan, their fathers lie when they went to Peru and said he was born in Peru. So Fujimori is Peruvian, not japanese. |
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