"...ascertained with certainty..."

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Bob G - 20 Jan 2007 04:15 GMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/afpentertainmentitaly

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Robert Lieblich - 20 Jan 2007 14:44 GMT

> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/afpentertainmentitaly

So?

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Bob G - 20 Jan 2007 15:20 GMT

> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/afpentertainmentitaly
>
> So?

Well, I think's it's a glaring redundancy.
To ascertain means to make certain, or don't it?

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Robert Lieblich - 20 Jan 2007 15:40 GMT

> > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/afpentertainmentitaly
> >
> > So?
>
> Well, I think's it's a glaring redundancy.
> To ascertain means to make certain, or don't it?

That's certainly the question. Let's ascertain what the word means.

I just did some belated dictionarying and ascertained that most
dictionaries do indeed define the word as meaning not just to find out
but to find out with certainty. My own sense of the word was that it
covers somewhat broader ground than that and that the etymological
fallacy was in play, but I can't cite chapter and verse. So I guess
you're right and I just missed the point. Not the first time for
that.

It's never too late to learn something.

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Bob Lieblich
Or to embarrass yourself

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tinwhistler - 20 Jan 2007 22:32 GMT

[snip]

> So I guess
> you're right and I just missed the point. Not the first time for
> that.
>
> It's never too late to learn something. [snip]

I've been in the same mindset, but I'm not quite as willing to accept,
100%, Bob's new instruction on the meaning of "ascertain." Yes, most
of the definitions do give "find out with certainty" -- but the
Wiktionary entry gives just plain "find out" as its first definition;
see:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ascertain

With that broader definition, the addition of "with certainty" isn't
redundant.

Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego

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Robert Lieblich - 20 Jan 2007 22:39 GMT

> [snip]
> > So I guess
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> With that broader definition, the addition of "with certainty" isn't
> redundant.

Thanks for coming to my defene, Ozzie, but I already surrendered. I'm
even going native. It strikes me that "find out" implies certainty
also.

More generally, I think there are fuzzy boundaries around most words
and phrases that would pop up in the same thesaurus entry as
"ascertain," and they're not all the same. Words have penumbras, and
the penumbras vary. But to me, in its clear area, "ascertain" does
suggest certainty, now that I think about it. I think this is another
way of saying what Ozzie is saying. So I surrender yet again.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Don't shoot

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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007

"...ascertained with certainty..."