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"Refute" in the wild

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Philip Eden - 20 Jan 2007 12:10 GMT
Did anyone else notice Ruth Turner's statement after
being arrested and questioned:  "I absolutely refute any
allegations of wrongdoing of any nature whatsoever"?

I waited, and I waited ....

Philip Eden
Peter Moylan - 20 Jan 2007 12:59 GMT
> Did anyone else notice Ruth Turner's statement after being arrested
> and questioned:  "I absolutely refute any allegations of wrongdoing
> of any nature whatsoever"?
>
> I waited, and I waited ....

It's easy to make this sort of mistake in impromptu speech. I'm more
annoyed by the third-person examples, where the reporter should have had
enough time to reflect on the meaning of the word.

"The Prime Minister today refuted any suggestion that awarding a
contract to his brother's company was improper, saying that the Leader
of the Opposition should mind his own business."

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Peter Moylan                             http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses.  The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
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address could disappear at any time.

Philip Eden - 20 Jan 2007 13:29 GMT
>> Did anyone else notice Ruth Turner's statement after being arrested
>> and questioned:  "I absolutely refute any allegations of wrongdoing
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> contract to his brother's company was improper, saying that the Leader
> of the Opposition should mind his own business."

Ah, but it came in a written statement which emerged from
10 Downing Street. So it's quite possible that they were not even
her own words.

Philip Eden
mike.j.harvey@gmail.com - 20 Jan 2007 13:04 GMT
> Did anyone else notice Ruth Turner's statement after
> being arrested and questioned:  "I absolutely refute any
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Philip Eden

This has been a sore point with for me a couple of decades now. I think
it has been discussed on here at least once before. People like us were
taught that to "deny" an accusation meant to assert its falsity,
whereas to "refute" it meant to demonstrate its falsity. However, we
are Canutes I fear. (Yes, folks, I know that Canute only commanded the
waves to retire in order to show his courtiers that even the power of
kings had limits).

I believe some dictionaries now give "deny" as an alternative meaning
of "refute". Another useful distinction on the way out...
Philip Eden - 20 Jan 2007 13:30 GMT
>> Did anyone else notice Ruth Turner's statement after
>> being arrested and questioned:  "I absolutely refute any
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I believe some dictionaries now give "deny" as an alternative meaning
> of "refute". Another useful distinction on the way out...

As skunked as fulsome, I'd suggest ...

pe
Marius Hancu - 20 Jan 2007 16:01 GMT
> > Did anyone else notice Ruth Turner's statement after
> > being arrested and questioned:  "I absolutely refute any
> > allegations of wrongdoing of any nature whatsoever"?

> This has been a sore point with for me a couple of decades now. I think
> it has been discussed on here at least once before.

Right.

This thread provided a good debate:

http://tinyurl.com/2ggkqx

Marius Hancu
John Dean - 20 Jan 2007 19:25 GMT
>> Did anyone else notice Ruth Turner's statement after
>> being arrested and questioned:  "I absolutely refute any
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> us were taught that to "deny" an accusation meant to assert its
> falsity, whereas to "refute" it meant to demonstrate its falsity.

True, true. But mayhap the Blairista was in process of refuting the
accusations, she just didn't expand her arguments (or the meeja didn't
report them). After all, the Great Doctor merely said "I refute it thus" and
kicked the stone. How about if she said "I CAN absolutely refute ..."
Mind you, the but I find really worrying is the protestething too much -
"absolutely ... any nature ... whatsoever." What happened to British
understatement and the stiffness of non-lower lips?

> However, we are Canutes I fear. (Yes, folks, I know that Canute only
> commanded the waves to retire in order to show his courtiers that
> even the power of kings had limits).

Should we spell it "Knut" in honour of Knutsford?
Signature

John Dean
Oxford

Vinny Burgoo - 20 Jan 2007 13:11 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Philip Eden wrote:

>Did anyone else notice Ruth Turner's statement after
>being arrested and questioned:  "I absolutely refute any
>allegations of wrongdoing of any nature whatsoever"?
>
>I waited, and I waited ....

Yes. And it was paraphrased by several newsreaders with the refute
intact.

Did anyone else misunderstand this eye-catching headline in The Daily
Telegraph?

       Pair accused in 21/7 bomb plot joke as they buy chemicals

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V

JNugent - 20 Jan 2007 14:45 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Philip Eden wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>         Pair accused in 21/7 bomb plot joke as they buy chemicals

Another one for "What The Papers Didn't Mean To Say".
Peter Moylan - 21 Jan 2007 02:29 GMT
> Did anyone else misunderstand this eye-catching headline in The Daily
>  Telegraph?
>
> Pair accused in 21/7 bomb plot joke as they buy chemicals

The airlines and airports, at least, are alert to this sort of thing.
They have made it clear that anyone making a bomb plot joke will be
ousted or arrested.

Signature

Peter Moylan                             http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses.  The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.  The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.

Prai Jei - 20 Jan 2007 17:31 GMT
"Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> (or somebody else of the same
name) wrote thusly in message <45b2069c$0$2447$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>:

> Did anyone else notice Ruth Turner's statement after
> being arrested and questioned:  "I absolutely refute any
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Philip Eden

A woman of ill refute perhaps :)
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