Jugjugged
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Marius Hancu - 22 Jan 2007 00:24 GMT Hello:
How would you read "reel out" here? Is it "give out" combined with "unwind"?
Also, is this "jugjugged" onomatopoeic?
--- ... some warbler in the thickest of the bushes reeled out a resonant, stuttering song. ... It scolded, fluted, screeched, jugjugged, entranced.
John Fowles, The Magus, p. 56 ---
Thanks. Marius Hancu
Richard Maurer - 22 Jan 2007 02:01 GMT How would you read "reel out" here? Is it "give out" combined with "unwind"?
Also, is this "jugjugged" onomatopoeic?
--- ... some warbler in the thickest of the bushes reeled out a resonant, stuttering song. ... It scolded, fluted, screeched, jugjugged, entranced.
John Fowles, The Magus, p. 56 ---
From Thomas Nashe: Cold doth not sting, the pretty birds do sing: Cuckoo, jug-jug, pu-we, to-witta-woo!
My image of "reeled out" is a possibly figurative description of the bird's tongue.
(But who am I to think -- I first thought that entranced meant "came in".)
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Don Phillipson - 22 Jan 2007 13:23 GMT > From Thomas Nashe: > Cold doth not sting, the pretty birds do sing: > Cuckoo, jug-jug, pu-we, to-witta-woo! > > My image of "reeled out" is a possibly figurative > description of the bird's tongue. John Fowles wrote The Magus when open-reel tape recorders became common in Europe: so his "reeled out a resonant, stuttering song" may have had tape in mind. The Nashe lyric was at that date well-known in English schools.
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Marius Hancu - 22 Jan 2007 19:04 GMT > From Thomas Nashe: > Cold doth not sting, the pretty birds do sing: > Cuckoo, jug-jug, pu-we, to-witta-woo! OK:-)
Thanks. Marius Hancu
Donna Richoux - 22 Jan 2007 09:45 GMT > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > John Fowles, The Magus, p. 56 A reel is a Scottish dance or dance-tune, but I don't find any evidence that there exists "to reel out" connected to that.
I would probably go with a fishing line being reeled out (unwound, extended into the water), with a slight allusion to the musical meaning.
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Marius Hancu - 22 Jan 2007 13:01 GMT > > --- > > ... some warbler in the thickest of the bushes reeled out a resonant, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I would probably go with a fishing line being reeled out (unwound, > extended into the water) Same here. Thank you for the confirmation.
Marius Hancu
Mike Lyle - 22 Jan 2007 19:31 GMT >>> --- >>> ... some warbler in the thickest of the bushes reeled out a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Same here. Thank you for the confirmation. "Reel off" is an everyday expression in my English. "Don't ask Joe how he is, or he'll reel off every symptom in the medical dictionary." "I used to be able to reel off hundreds of lines of Shakespeare." I don't think I'm getting mixed up with "wheel out" when I feel "reel out" is common, too: "Don't reel out all your usual excuses."
I must admit I'm tempted by the tape-recorder explanation; but I wonder if there's cross-pollination from film, which of course came earlier. There's also some connection in my mind with the drum magazine of a Tommy gun: if this connection isn't spurious, it presumably has a movie link. Where would "off the reel" fit in with these? In fishing, casting off the reel is different from working out line using one's hand as intermediary.
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Marius Hancu - 23 Jan 2007 12:41 GMT > "Reel off" is an everyday expression in my English. "Don't ask Joe how > he is, or he'll reel off every symptom in the medical dictionary." "I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I must admit I'm tempted by the tape-recorder explanation; but I wonder > if there's cross-pollination from film, which of course came earlier. Then, would you say it doesn't show earlier than 20th century?
Marius Hancu
Donna Richoux - 23 Jan 2007 13:20 GMT > > "Reel off" is an everyday expression in my English. "Don't ask Joe how > > he is, or he'll reel off every symptom in the medical dictionary." "I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Then, would you say it doesn't show earlier than 20th century? Which one? I think for a bird to "reel out" a song is individual to Mr. Fowles. For anyone to reel out a certain amount of thread, line, tape, etc, off a reel -- a spool, a bobbin -- is old. The web hits for "reeled out" look quite literal.
To reel *off* facts and figures (reciting from memory) is old.
I think Mike's thought that he, Mike, is mixing up "reel out" with "wheel out" is probably true. Whether Fowles was being poetically creative or merely mistaken, we'll never know.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jan 2007 21:00 GMT >> > "Reel off" is an everyday expression in my English. "Don't ask >> > Joe how he is, or he'll reel off every symptom in the medical [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > etc, off a reel -- a spool, a bobbin -- is old. The web hits for "reeled > out" look quite literal. I actually see a few Google Books hits that would seem to be on target. The earliest is from Ann Stephens's 1854 _High Life in New York_:
I swanny, if he didn't take me a'most off the handle with his consarned sweet voice and harnsome manners. It raly was eenamost as good as a play, to hear him reel out the common sense and soft sodder about this land of liberty and old England.
(sic, modulo my own typos, of course). There's also David Porter's 1884 _Allan Dare and Robert Le Diable:
"Betsy Jane," said Samson, "ain't it time we heered them sleigh-bells? Parson Peabody has had time enough to splice half a dozen couples. When I was married it didn't take more'n half so long to reel out the ceremony; but nowadays, with their hifalutin notions, they do take uncommon long."
So it looks as though it actually was an expression in the nineteenth century, almost certainly from the notion of reeling out cable or line or something similar.
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CDB - 23 Jan 2007 14:50 GMT [reel off]
> Then, would you say it doesn't show earlier than 20th century? A quick search of Mastertexts shows Twain using it in _Tom Sawyer_ (1876): "...and heard the stony-hearted liar reel off his serene statement..."; and in _Life on the Mississippi_ (1883): "... I could shut my eyes and reel off a good long string of these names...".
The second one suggests that the metaphor was drawn from the reeling-off of a cord or cable.
John Dean - 23 Jan 2007 15:38 GMT >> "Reel off" is an everyday expression in my English. "Don't ask Joe >> how he is, or he'll reel off every symptom in the medical [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Marius Hancu OED has "reel off" from the 18th C and in this sense from the 19th:
"b. transf. To rattle off (a story, song, etc.) without pause or effort. Also, to cover (a distance, etc.) rapidly; to accomplish or perform without pause or effort. Also const. out (rare). 1837 Marryat Dog-fiend ix, Well reeled off, Billy. 1870 'Mark Twain' in Galaxy Dec. 883/2 The hands [of my watch] would straightway begin to spin round and round.+ She would reel off the next twenty-four hours in six or seven minutes."
"reeling out" seems to be from the angling term. also pre 20th C, the opposite action to reeling in.
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Mike Lyle - 23 Jan 2007 16:00 GMT >>> "Reel off" is an everyday expression in my English. "Don't ask Joe >>> how he is, or he'll reel off every symptom in the medical [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > "reeling out" seems to be from the angling term. also pre 20th C, the > opposite action to reeling in. There we are, then. No tape-recorders or movies were harmed in the production of this idiom: just unrolling stuff.
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John Holmes - 24 Jan 2007 11:56 GMT >> OED has "reel off" from the 18th C and in this sense from the 19th: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > There we are, then. No tape-recorders or movies were harmed in the > production of this idiom: just unrolling stuff. Do you suppose it might be a fossilised pun? If you reel out your lines when you recite something?
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Donna Richoux - 24 Jan 2007 13:26 GMT > >> OED has "reel off" from the 18th C and in this sense from the 19th: > >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Do you suppose it might be a fossilised pun? If you reel out your lines when > you recite something? Can we please watch the distinction between "reel out" and "reel off"? This thread makes less and less sense the more people mix them up.
The reciting is "reel off". Yes, I think that is sort of a metaphor (not a pun, exactly) comparing pulling a thread of material quickly and easily off a reel and pulling information the same way out of one's brain.
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Mike Lyle - 24 Jan 2007 13:58 GMT > > >> OED has "reel off" from the 18th C and in this sense from the 19th: > > > >> "b. transf. To rattle off (a story, song, etc.) without pause or > > >> effort. Also, to cover (a distance, etc.) rapidly; to accomplish or > > >> perform without pause or effort. Also const. out (rare). [...]
> > >> "reeling out" seems to be from the angling term. also pre 20th C, the > > >> opposite action to reeling in. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Do you suppose it might be a fossilised pun? If you reel out your lines when > > you recite something?
> Can we please watch the distinction between "reel out" and "reel off"? > This thread makes less and less sense the more people mix them up. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > easily off a reel and pulling information the same way out of one's > brain. But, see John's OED quotation above, there doesn't seem to _be_ a recognized distinction: "Also constructed with 'out' (rare)". There is only one example of "reel out" in this sense, but it's clearly treated as synonymous.
I'm inclined to believe that in fact there is a slight difference in usage, but it certainly isn't described in the Dictionary. If difference there be, I'd say "reeling off" referred to fluency of utterance, while "reeling out" slightly emphasised that the object was already "in" -- prepared or memorized. But on the Dictionary's evidence this looks very much like a trivial personal preference.
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John Holmes - 26 Jan 2007 03:01 GMT >> >> OED has "reel off" from the 18th C and in this sense from the 19th: >> >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Can we please watch the distinction between "reel out" and "reel off"? > This thread makes less and less sense the more people mix them up. What distinction do you think there is exactly?
Whether you reel out the same old lines or reel off your favourite yarn, it's much of a muchness, AFAICS.
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Donna Richoux - 26 Jan 2007 20:06 GMT > > Can we please watch the distinction between "reel out" and "reel off"? > > This thread makes less and less sense the more people mix them up. > > What distinction do you think there is exactly? I thought it was spelled out well. "Reel out" refers to actual thread, line, etc, being pulled off a winding reel. "Reel off" is the figurative recitation of facts and figures.
> Whether you reel out the same old lines At first I was going to say that this would be metaphorical and there was no evidence for it, but I did find four (4) hits by searching on
"reeled out * line"
He reeled out some line 'bout the frigid bitch, and you bit." Simon Cowell reeled out his sickeningly familiar line he always saves for the finals. On the ferry they had received several inquires as to the content of the trailer; Stewart promptly reeled out the old line about transporting alligators. ... smooth President Kliment E. Voroshilov reeled out a party line of ...
So it does exist, as a metaphor. Thanks for calling my attention to it.
The other 29 hits, however, were all about actual fishing lines and other physical examples.
> or reel off your favourite yarn, > it's much of a muchness, AFAICS.
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John Holmes - 27 Jan 2007 09:32 GMT >> > Can we please watch the distinction between "reel out" and "reel off"? >> > This thread makes less and less sense the more people mix them up. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > line, etc, being pulled off a winding reel. "Reel off" is the figurative > recitation of facts and figures. So reel _out_ refers to it being pulled _off_, but reel _off_ doesn't? Surely they are both metaphorical/figurative, aren't they?
The other thing that makes me curious is, why limit it to reciting facts and figures? You could reel (out/)off a list of excuses, or the lyrics of a song, for example. The MC at a ceremony could reel off his usual patter. The essence of the expression as I see it is that whatever is being said has been "stored up" beforehand and is being delivered mechanically. It can sometimes carry an implication of insincerity.
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Donna Richoux - 27 Jan 2007 11:32 GMT > >> > Can we please watch the distinction between "reel out" and "reel off"? > >> > This thread makes less and less sense the more people mix them up. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > So reel _out_ refers to it being pulled _off_, but reel _off_ doesn't? Well now, we don't always find literal sense in those phrasal verbs, do we? What turns outward when things turn out? What is given upward when you give up?
> Surely they are both metaphorical/figurative, aren't they? I went on to address that later in that post. I hadn't been aware of a figurative "reel out," but I found a few examples.
> The other thing that makes me curious is, why limit it to reciting facts and > figures? You could reel (out/)off a list of excuses, or the lyrics of a > song, for example. The MC at a ceremony could reel off his usual patter. Quite right. That was an example. The idea of "etc" and "and so forth" got lost somewhere in the discussion.
>The > essence of the expression as I see it is that whatever is being said has > been "stored up" beforehand and is being delivered mechanically. It can > sometimes carry an implication of insincerity. At least, the idea of words being delivered unusually quickly and easily, without thought (as one could swiftly pay out a line that has been wound on a spool, as opposed to line lying in a tangled heap).
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Prai Jei - 23 Jan 2007 20:48 GMT Marius Hancu (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message <wvTsh.6323$a05.338602@weber.videotron.net>:
> Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > John Fowles, The Magus, p. 56 Wasn't the jugjug bird one of the several dangerous creatures one was warned against in the second stanza of Jabberwocky?
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2007 00:30 GMT > Wasn't the jugjug bird one of the several dangerous creatures one > was warned against in the second stanza of Jabberwocky? That's "jubjub". It also shows up in the _Hunting of the Snark_ (fit five, mentioned at the end of fit four).
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Robert Lieblich - 24 Jan 2007 00:36 GMT > > Wasn't the jugjug bird one of the several dangerous creatures one > > was warned against in the second stanza of Jabberwocky? > > That's "jubjub". It also shows up in the _Hunting of the Snark_ (fit > five, mentioned at the end of fit four). Also in third line of second stanza of "Jabberwocky:
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun The frumious Bandersnatch.
I give all bandersnatches a wide berth, frumious or not.
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Richard Maurer - 24 Jan 2007 01:12 GMT Marius Hancu asked about: ... some warbler in the thickest of the bushes reeled out a resonant, stuttering song. ... It scolded, fluted, screeched, jugjugged, entranced.
I saw an unauthoritative note that 19th century writers used "jug jug" for one of the nightingale's sounds. Elsewhere on the web it is mentioned that the nightingale has a call (as opposed to a song) that resembles that croak of a frog. Maybe "jug jug" is that croak.
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer - 24 Jan 2007 07:16 GMT Marius Hancu asked about: ... some warbler in the thickest of the bushes reeled out a resonant, stuttering song. ... It scolded, fluted, screeched, jugjugged, entranced.
I saw an unauthoritative note that 19th century writers used "jug jug" for one of the nightingale's sounds. Elsewhere on the web it is mentioned that the nightingale has a call (as opposed to a song) that resembles that croak of a frog. Maybe "jug jug" is that croak.
I looked at an OED hours ago. It had an entry for "jug" as a bird sound. The cite was from the 1500s and used a nightingale, and was perhaps too nice for a croak.
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
CDB - 24 Jan 2007 15:29 GMT [...]
> I looked at an OED hours ago. It had an entry for "jug" > as a bird sound. The cite was from the 1500s and used > a nightingale, and was perhaps too nice for a croak. Maybe she's calling for a term of imprisonment, for sad infamy. John Lyly and Thomas Dekker published strangely similar poems towards the end of that century, in each of which the nightingale cries, "... jug, jug, tereu". Lyly's bird says four jugs and Dekker's says three.
I'm not posting the links: the poems are nothing to write home about. In fact, I wrote and killed a post about this yesterday.
Nick Atty - 24 Jan 2007 19:42 GMT >I looked at an OED hours ago. It had an entry for "jug" >as a bird sound. The cite was from the 1500s and used >a nightingale, and was perhaps too nice for a croak. Is it something to do with the nightjug? A bird much like the nightjar, but with a handle.
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Donna Richoux - 24 Jan 2007 23:09 GMT > Marius Hancu asked about: > ... some warbler in the thickest of the bushes [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > has a call (as opposed to a song) that resembles > that croak of a frog. Maybe "jug jug" is that croak. I've heard a nightingale; in the spring, the park rangers here lead evening "nightingale walks" so people can hear them. The song is a long and involved series of squeaks, chirps, and buzzes. I found a sound file -- I'm not sure I'd transcribe any of the sounds as "jug" myself, but... http://www.dutchbirding.nl/sounds/thrush_night060603a.mp3
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Richard Maurer - 25 Jan 2007 02:26 GMT Richard Maurer wrote: I saw an unauthoritative note that 19th century writers used "jug jug" for one of the nightingale's sounds. Elsewhere on the web it is mentioned that the nightingale has a call (as opposed to a song) that resembles that croak of a frog. Maybe "jug jug" is that croak.
I've heard a nightingale; in the spring, the park rangers here lead evening "nightingale walks" so people can hear them. The song is a long and involved series of squeaks, chirps, and buzzes. I found a sound file -- I'm not sure I'd transcribe any of the sounds as "jug" myself, but... http://www.dutchbirding.nl/sounds/thrush_night060603a.mp3
I hear something close to "jug jug jug jug" at 21 seconds in. I have seen reports of a gurgle, so maybe "gurgle" is the modern notation for "jug jug". The question that remains for me is whether "jug jug" is supposed to sound sweet or raucous or gurgly.
That bird uses such a wide variety of sounds; most seem to use just two or three. I am reminded of a time thankfully now in the past when a car alarm would sound off twice a week. It was one of those alarms that cycled through a series of annoying sounds and it would go through the whole cycle at least twice. To compound the annoyance, a local bird learned that "song". It was a little sweeter than the real thing, but conveyed the annoyance. Just a reminder that many of these bird songs are territorial, so they imitate the most threatening sounds they know. No surprise to hear hissing snakes, croaking frogs, screeching monkeys, and frumious whatnots.
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2007 01:16 GMT >> > Wasn't the jugjug bird one of the several dangerous creatures one >> > was warned against in the second stanza of Jabberwocky? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun > The frumious Bandersnatch. So what you're saying is that in addition to being one of the several dangerous creatures one was warned against in the second stanza of Jabberwocky, it shows up in the the third line of the second stanza of Jabberwocky?
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Robert Lieblich - 24 Jan 2007 01:40 GMT > >> > Wasn't the jugjug bird one of the several dangerous creatures one > >> > was warned against in the second stanza of Jabberwocky? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Jabberwocky, it shows up in the the third line of the second stanza of > Jabberwocky? Yup, that's what I'm saying.
I wouldn't be saying it if I had paid more attention to what I was doing.
Roland Hutchinson - 24 Jan 2007 13:43 GMT >> >> > Wasn't the jugjug bird one of the several dangerous creatures one >> >> > was warned against in the second stanza of Jabberwocky? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I wouldn't be saying it if I had paid more attention to what I was > doing. Good idea! The Jubjub bird is notorious for sneaking up on you when you're not paying attention. I think you just got lucky this time.
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Peter Moylan - 24 Jan 2007 06:38 GMT >> Wasn't the jugjug bird one of the several dangerous creatures one >> was warned against in the second stanza of Jabberwocky? > > That's "jubjub". It also shows up in the _Hunting of the Snark_ (fit > five, mentioned at the end of fit four). Not to be confused with the oomidoodle bird.
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Prai Jei - 26 Jan 2007 19:14 GMT Peter Moylan (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message <45b6fed3$0$8001$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
> Not to be confused with the oomidoodle bird. I managed to spot one of those once, just before it disappeared up its own
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Peter Moylan - 27 Jan 2007 12:03 GMT > Peter Moylan (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in > message <45b6fed3$0$8001$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I managed to spot one of those once, just before it disappeared up > its own We seem to have hit a cultural clash here. In my memory the oomidoodle bird was the one with no legs, and who therefore always had a painful landing. (Whether it is related to the no-eye deer is left as an exercise for the reader.) The one who flew round and round in ever-decreasing circles is called ... well, now that I think of it, I can't remember what it was called. I do remember that both birds appeared in a song called "The Wild West Show", which also referred to the Fakawi tribe, and a variety of other weird and wonderful creatures.
Googling didn't help me much here. A search on "We're going to the Wild West Show" turned up one scouting song book (!) and one web site of children's songs (!!!) containing the song I remembered, but with only a small sampling of verses. The old "Engineers' Song Book", being an underground publication when I was a student, apparently never made it to the web.
The interesting part is that a search for "oomidoodle bird" turned up your "disappearing up ..." connection, almost all on web pages discussing the Iraq war.
Some of the bawdy classics are at risk of falling out of living memory. "Eskimo Nell" is alive and well on the web, appearing in Wikipaedia and even Amazon, among other places. I would imagine that "The Good Ship Venus" is equally easy to find. But a few of the more obscure ones ... I fear for the future.
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