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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007What Language Rules am I Missing?
Hello, after reading several chapters in my English grammar book I, an ESL writer, am still a little confused by some sentence structures. It would be very nice if you could point out some of the rules I am missing. Grammar book: To understand the causes, researchers have extensively investigated vandalism. My version: There has been an extensive investigation to understand the causes of vandalism. Grammar book: The library has a room for readers. Why not: The library has a room for reading? Grammar book: The library has room for reading. Why not: The library has room for readers? Grammar book: In English the use of determiners depends on the context they appear in and the kind of noun they precede. My version: In English the use of determiners depends on their context and the kind of noun they are preceding. My car you is worth more than you yourself(omit?) [are?] Thanks, Sven skoehler@gmail.com had it: > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > My version: In English the use of determiners depends on their context > and the kind of noun they are preceding. I'm not sure what your question is. Each of the Grammar book sentences is OK and so are yours. There are many ways to phrase sentences of this length. Although I don't like the Grammar book's example in the last case - it's ugly. Yours is better but finishes badly. I prefer: - In English the use of determiners depends on their context and the kind of noun they precede. > My car you is worth more than you yourself(omit?) [are?] Using "worth" about a person refers to how much capital (money) they have. Unless you are talking to a slave with a specific purchase price, the sentence doesn't make a lot of sense.  SignatureDavid ===== > skoehler@gmail.com had it: [...] >> My car you is worth more than you yourself(omit?) [are?] > > Using "worth" about a person refers to how much capital > (money) they have. Unless you are talking to a slave with a > specific purchase price, the sentence doesn't make a lot of > sense. Are you sure about that? Can you imagine the following remarks by a husband engaged in a feud with his wife? "What?!" "I should sell my car?" "Hell, no, I'm not going to sell my car!" "My car is worth more than you!" Regards, ----- WB. >Using "worth" about a person refers to how much capital (money) they >have. Unless you are talking to a slave with a specific purchase >price, the sentence doesn't make a lot of sense. Except as in "I'm worth it". Hello, > I'm not sure what your question is. Each of the Grammar book > sentences is OK and so are yours. There are many ways to phrase > sentences of this length. Although I don't like the Grammar book's > example in the last case - it's ugly. Each of the sentences I gave are the revision of a faulty version of that sentence which were used to illustrate grammatical concepts. However, some of the revised sentences seemed to fix more than just the fault that the book wanted to illustrate. So I had the impression I am missing something, but as you point out it's usually just another way to phrase the sentence. > Yours is better but finishes > badly. I prefer: > > - In English the use of determiners depends on their context and the > kind of noun they precede. Thanks. > > My car you is worth more than you yourself(omit?) [are?] > > Using "worth" about a person refers to how much capital (money) they > have. Unless you are talking to a slave with a specific purchase > price, the sentence doesn't make a lot of sense. I think that's a Germanism (my native language), as in German there is only one word for expressing both worth and value. Is this a better version: My car has a greater value than you? I think the actual context I used this phrase was in a conversation about a woman who told a friend: My relationship with my husband has greater value than you. Thanks for all your input! Best wishes, Sven skoehler@gmail.com had it: > Hello, ... > > > My car you is worth more than you yourself(omit?) [are?] > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > is only one word for expressing both worth and value. Is this a better > version: My car has a greater value than you? If you really want to compare a person with a monetary value then "worth" is the right word. But it's not common in that way and I maintain that it's essentially meaningless. Am I worth more or less than £20,000? I think your recasting above is intending to compare the value of the car and the person. In that case you need a subjective viewpoint as the value of a person varies, depending on who is appraising them: - My car's more valuable to me than you are. SignatureDavid ===== > Hello, > > after reading several chapters in my English grammar book I, an ESL > writer, am still a little confused by some sentence structures. It > would be very nice if you could point out some of the rules I am > missing. I don't disagree with David's answer, but I think a bit more detail would help, as the different examples do not all point in the same direction. Sometimes the book is better, sometimes you are. > Grammar book: To understand the causes, researchers have extensively > investigated vandalism. > My version: There has been an extensive investigation to understand the > causes of vandalism. The grammar book is clumsy; yours is much better. > Grammar book: The library has a room for readers. > Why not: The library has a room for reading? I think yours is better unless we are talking about a library that has a specific category of users that are officially recognized as "readers" clearly distinguished from people who just wandered in. > Grammar book: The library has room for reading. > Why not: The library has room for readers? Here I take "room" to mean sufficient space rather than a room with the article omitted. I think the book's version means that the library is spacious enough to allow people to read in it without getting in one another's way. Your version doesn't seem an improvement and on the whole I prefer the book's. > Grammar book: In English the use of determiners depends on the context > they appear in and the kind of noun they precede. > My version: In English the use of determiners depends on their context > and the kind of noun they are preceding. Neither is better than the other. > My car you is worth more than you yourself(omit?) [are?] I don't understand this sentence at all. What is it supposed to mean? athel > > Hello, > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > My version: In English the use of determiners depends on their context > > and the kind of noun they are preceding. Grammar book: the first "in" makes the second "in" jar horribly... ...so the OP has improved it if my ears are to be believed.. > Neither is better than the other. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > athel [ ... ] > > > Grammar book: In English the use of determiners depends on the context > > > they appear in and the kind of noun they precede. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ...so the OP has improved it if my ears are to be believed.. I don't find that repeating words like "in" jars much, especially when they are separated by 11 words. I would only ever apply the rule about not repeating words in a sentence to nouns, verbs and adjectives, and then with considerable discretion. Writers who tie themselves in knots to avoid repeating a word often create greater problems than the ones they are trying to solve. a. >Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >My version: There has been an extensive investigation to understand the >causes of vandalism. There are no rules involved in either construction. It's a matter of emphasis. The first emphasizes that understanding the causes is the reason for the investigation, and the second emphasizes that extensive investigations have taken place. The emphasis is slight, but there is some. >Grammar book: The library has a room for readers. >Why not: The library has a room for reading? Two different meanings. "Readers", in this case, refers to people who come to the library only to read books at the library. Your sentence refers to a space in which all patrons, including people who come to the library to check out books, can read. >Grammar book: The library has room for reading. >Why not: The library has room for readers? See above. >Grammar book: In English the use of determiners depends on the context >they appear in and the kind of noun they precede. >My version: In English the use of determiners depends on their context >and the kind of noun they are preceding. The determiners appear *in* context, but you are saying the determiners *have* context. The grammar book's version is better. >My car you is worth more than you yourself(omit?) [are?] Not a complete sentence. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > Grammar book: The library has a room for readers. > Why not: The library has a room for reading? > > Grammar book: The library has room for reading. > Why not: The library has room for readers? English has no comprehensive set of a priori rules that prescribe how any sentence must be constructed. Its rules are now understood to be regular (and repeated) patterns that have been approved a posteriori. For example it is a general rule of English that adjectives must precede the noun described. Thus we talk about "a little dog," not "a dog little." But (1) this is not true for all descriptors, e.g. we say "the noun described" not "the described noun." English has no rule that (in your example) prescribes that we must use readers (plural noun), or the reader (singular noun), or reading (gerund). In general terms, English is more flexible than many other languages (e.g. allows in poetry or spoken language constructions that would be disapproved in prose or writing.) Flexibility means few rules (or many exceptions to rules.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) ... > Grammar book: In English the use of determiners depends on the context > they appear in and the kind of noun they precede. > My version: In English the use of determiners depends on their context > and the kind of noun they are preceding. Some people (not me) object to using possessives with anything but people (and maybe animals, buildings, and a few other things) They'd say you can't use "their" with an antecedent of "determiners". Maybe your grammar book follows this rule. > My car you is worth more than you yourself(omit?) [are?] "My car is worth more than you (are)" could mean either that my car is worth more money than all your possessions together (minus your debts), or that my car is more important to me than you are. Either way the "are" is optional and I wouldn't include a "yourself". SignatureJerry Friedman |
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