 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Being Marius
I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are right. Or grammatical. Or idiomatic. I'm currently reading "A Short History of Tractors In Ukrainian" by Marina Lewycka. Despite the title, it's a novel. The author writes: (about a bride at her wedding) "Despite her slim build, she must have been visibly pregnant." That's at cross-purposes to me. "Due to her slim build, she must have been visibly pregnant" would seem better. "Despite" seems contradictory to the image. The book, a paperback, has an interesting history. I don't know where it was first sold as new, but it was rubber-stamped by a used-book store in London. My brother bought it from a used-book seller (a cart in the street) in Puerto Natales, Chile. He took it back to Denmark and then mailed it to me in Orlando, and I will give it my son when I'm done with it. I'm hoping that his wife will, in turn, send it to one of her Ukrainian friends. (Though she is Russian, she has a number of friends from the Ukraine because she took some courses in Kiev.) obAue: I always say and write "the Ukraine". Do others usually use the definite article? Seems odd to do when, in the country in question, definite articles are seldom used.  SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when > I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > been visibly pregnant" would seem better. "Despite" seems > contradictory to the image. Yes. I wonder if the author was thinking of some Ukey expression meaning something like "in contrast to". "With her slim build, her pregnancy must have been striking." > The book, a paperback, has an interesting history. I don't know where > it was first sold as new, but it was rubber-stamped by a used-book [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > number of friends from the Ukraine because she took some courses in > Kiev.) Sounds like a family version of www.bookcrossing.com/ > obAue: I always say and write "the Ukraine". Do others usually use > the definite article? Seems odd to do when, in the country in > question, definite articles are seldom used. I do, too. But didn't we find a year or so ago that the locals find the definite article demeaning? Not sure if that's a sign of emotional security or insecurity. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > > I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when > > I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > -- > Mike. In complete contrast to the folks of "THE" Ohio State University. > I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when > I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Tony Cooper > Orlando, FL What about; 'Despite her slim build, she *was* visibly pregnant.' The 'must have been' is a non sequitur, in that slimness does not imply pregnancy. Richard Lichten > > I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when > > I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > The 'must have been' is a non sequitur, in that slimness does not imply > pregnancy. It depends on the circumstances of the narrator at the time of the comment, no? An omniscient narrator couldn't say that, but one with a limited perspective, commenting on a wedding the narrator didn't attend could say "must have been" about one of the bridesmaids. > I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when > I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > the definite article? Seems odd to do when, in the country in > question, definite articles are seldom used. Despite means "in spite of", according to MWCD. 1spite \spt\ noun [ME, short for despite] (14c) [...] in spite of : in defiance or contempt of : without being prevented by I think you're thinking in terms of the second definition, while the author was thinking in terms of the first definition. While your correction does make perfect sense, I think the original works as well. I'd read it as "In defiance or contempt of her slim build, she was visibly pregnant." I don't know why the author used "must have been", unless the narrator was conjecturing. > > I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when > > I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > visibly pregnant." I don't know why the author used "must have been", > unless the narrator was conjecturing. I suppose that to arrive at a definitive answer, we would need to know the whole context of the passage in question, otherwise it's not just the narrator who's conjecturing. Richard L > I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when > I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Tony Cooper > Orlando, FL They are never used, since they don't exist in Ukrainian. >> > obAue: I always say and write "the Ukraine". Do others usually use > > the definite article? Seems odd to do when, in the country in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > They are never used, since they don't exist in Ukrainian. Fine except the "the" is used by folk speaking English, we don't need to follow Ukrainian laguage rules. It's like the PC nutcakes who get upset when someone speaking English refers to an Amerindian leader as a "chief' saying "they didn't call their leaders chiefs".{I've had that conversation several times} [ ... ] > It's like the PC nutcakes who get upset when someone speaking English refers > to an Amerindian leader as a "chief' saying "they didn't call their leaders > chiefs".{I've had that conversation several times} Isn't that "chieves"? -- Bertie Wooster The vorotyntsev@yahoo.com entity posted thusly: >> I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when >> I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >They are never used, since they don't exist in Ukrainian. Additionally, the fine folks of Ukraine prefer that we call it by its actual name. Oleg, from the Canada. > The vorotyntsev@yahoo.com entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Oleg, from the Canada. English has historically changed foreign names Cologne for Koln, Vienna for Wien, Leghorn for Livorno. So the good folk of the Ukraine can go take a .... The Ray O'Hara entity posted thusly: >> The vorotyntsev@yahoo.com entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >Wien, Leghorn for Livorno. >So the good folk of the Ukraine can go take a .... Is that a "whoosh", or do you really advocate the use of the definite article when referring to a country by its name? It's not that they want folks to pronounce Ukraine they way they do. Perhaps things are different in the Florida. >The Ray O'Hara entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > >Perhaps things are different in the Florida. Ray, who I think you are responding to, is in Massachusetts. I am in Florida. My comment had nothing to do with the proper or currently acceptable way to describe the country. I has to do with old dogs not learning new tricks. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL The Tony Cooper entity posted thusly: >>The Ray O'Hara entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >Ray, who I think you are responding to, is in Massachusetts. I am in >Florida. Ahh! Well, I did think it were you, eh. >My comment had nothing to do with the proper or currently acceptable >way to describe the country. I has to do with old dogs not learning >new tricks. That I can understand. Having quite a few Ukrainian relatives (by marriage), I am somewhat sensitized to the name of the country as she should oughta be spoke. > Is that a "whoosh", or do you really advocate the use of the definite > article when referring to a country by its name? Some countries do have have a definite article, and I'm not just talking about the ones with complicated names like "the United Kingdom, the United States of America or the Netherlands". Some we learnt to use when we were kids: eg the Ukraine. Others I am still discovering - what's the West African country? The Gambia? SignatureRob Bannister >> Is that a "whoosh", or do you really advocate the use of the definite >> article when referring to a country by its name? > Some countries do have have a definite article, and I'm not just talking > about the ones with complicated names like "the United Kingdom, the United > States of America or the Netherlands". Some we learnt to use when we were > kids: eg the Ukraine. Others I am still discovering - what's the West African > country? The Gambia? It was decided some time ago, by the Ukrainians, that calling the country "The Ukraine" demeaned it, and now that it was a proper country it had to be called just "Ukraine". Whether it's logical or not, once it's declared by the people involved, there is an imperative to go along with it, since it seems like you are trying to be offensive if you don't. I have never had a proper explanation of why, whhat was once the normal word in England meaning "of Scotland", which is "Scotch", is regarded as offensive to the Scots and we must now use "Scots". It just seem that at some point it was declared as such, and after that it just seemed rude to carry on using the older English word. Matthew Huntbach >Whether it's logical or not, once it's declared by the people involved, there >is an imperative to go along with it, since it seems like you are trying to >be offensive if you don't. How is that so? Why should non-native speakers be entitled to tell native speakers how their language should be arranged? Have that tried to do it to the French as well? Granted that the Chinese, in particular, have had some success in stamping out older romanizations of mainland place-names, but this is not generally the way of the world. If Ukrainians want to be creatively thin-skinned over something that is none of their business anyway, then by all means, let's make sure to keep on using the definite article. What other examples are there? Someone mentioned (The Republic of) the Gambia; there's also "the Sudan" and "the Lebanon", although I believe both are dying out. "The Maldives" is another. Many toponyms for regions use the definite article: the Levant, the Middle East, the South of France, the North of England, the West, the Pacific Northwest, the Maritimes, the West Indies, the Balkans, etc., but many others do not. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >> Whether it's logical or not, once it's declared by the people >> involved, there is an imperative to go along with it, since it seems [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > something that is none of their business anyway, then by all means, > let's make sure to keep on using the definite article. [...] Well, you're right, of course. But also not so right, in that English is an international language: we want to deal with them at conferences, we want them to fill the coffers of our universities, we want to sell them our atlases. I suppose it's a bit like it being none of our business who the citizens of the US elect as President: obviously true. But at the same time it's obviously true that it's very much our business, because it will affect us just as much as it affects them, or even more. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com The Garrett Wollman entity posted thusly: >>Whether it's logical or not, once it's declared by the people involved, there >>is an imperative to go along with it, since it seems like you are trying to [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Northwest, the Maritimes, the West Indies, the Balkans, etc., but many >others do not. The Yukon is now properly referred to as Yukon. I think it's rather like not wanting to be called negro or wetback. >"The Maldives" is another. And many other archipalagoes, though I've heard that Orkney and Shetland are properly so called. David > >"The Maldives" is another. > > And many other archipalagoes, though I've heard that > Orkney and Shetland are properly so called. I've sometimes wondered why that should be. At the opposite end of the British archipelago there are also the Scilly Isles, which are called plain "Scilly" by the locals. I'm not sure how the experts treat the Blaskets. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com [...] > How is that so? Why should non-native speakers be entitled to > tell native speakers how their language should be arranged? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > business anyway, then by all means, let's make sure to keep on > using the definite article. The Ukrainians began their linguistic efforts by telling the Russians what Russian preposition to use for "in" when referring to free Ukraine without being derogatory. Ukrainian media using the Russian language follow the dictate. Russian media do not. That does not alter the fact that Ukraine is an independent country. The main Ukrainian foreign linguistic focus, apart from Russian, was on English, the international language. Most English-language media seem to comply with Ukrainians' request not to use a definite article with the name of their country. In other countries where English is not the native language, Ukraine has not been so successful. Germany, which is usually a sucker for a pitch to stop discrimination in language, has kept using the German definite article with Ukraine, with which Germany has good relations. The Ukrainian embassy in Germany respects that and uses the article themselves. Germany was able to point out that the German language traditionally uses the definite article with countries that have feminine gender. Ukraine is one of the seven that do. Switzerland is another one, and German-speaking Swiss refer to their own country using the German feminine article. After that explanation, Ukrainian objections were squelched. This is all reminiscent of the hoo-ha some years when the Ivory Coast insisted that the name of the country was only Côte d'Ivoire, in French, and must never be translated into another language. The German government, as is to be expected, adheres to that, though German media translate the name into German. The Chinese story is a different one. People's China did not set out to "stamp out older romanizations." The Beijing government developed a system of romanization in 1958, pinyin, to help spread a modern standard pronunciation of the official language throughout China. In 1979, the Beijing government _officially_ adopted pinyin for the transliteration of Chinese words, including place names and proper nouns, in texts written in Latin letters. The fact that the government of a country, that is China in this case, stood behind a transliteration system and said it was the country's official one, paved the way for pinyin to be accepted internationally as the standard system of transliterating the Chinese language. In my opinion, pinyin is a good system, much better than Wade-Giles, a system that once predominated in Chinese transliteration. Regards, ----- WB. > It was decided some time ago, by the Ukrainians, that calling the country > "The Ukraine" demeaned it, and now that it was a proper country it had to > be called just "Ukraine". As depicted in the historically accurate (though fictionalized in a few otherwise trivial details) comic: http://www.angryflower.com/ukefev.gif -=Eric In alt.usage.english, Eric Schwartz wrote: >> It was decided some time ago, by the Ukrainians, that calling the country >> "The Ukraine" demeaned it, and now that it was a proper country it had to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >http://www.angryflower.com/ukefev.gif History at its best. Accessible, succinct, may contain sunflowers. SignatureV The Eric Schwartz entity posted thusly: >> It was decided some time ago, by the Ukrainians, that calling the country >> "The Ukraine" demeaned it, and now that it was a proper country it had to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >http://www.angryflower.com/ukefev.gif Thanks! My niece and nephews will also thank you. > The Eric Schwartz entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Thanks! My niece and nephews will also thank you. And for the AUEista on your "holiday" list... http://www.angryflower.com/aposter.html . > I have never had a proper explanation of why, > whhat was once the normal word in England meaning "of Scotland", which is > "Scotch", is regarded as offensive to the Scots and we must now use > "Scots". > It just seem that at some point it was declared as such, and after that > it just seemed rude to carry on using the older English word. That must have happened some time after about the 1870s. The Scots who settled in Australia before then had no problem with naming their schools Scotch College: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scotch_College&oldid=86699477 SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au [ ... ] > Oleg, from the Canada. There you pinpoint the problem. Francophones do indeed call it "le Canada" and I think they already had named (part of) it thus before the Anglos got there. So which is right? Obviously, what is right is what is appropriate for the language one is using -- "Canada" in English, "le Canada" in French. It seems to me that Ray is entirely right: what the Ukrainians do when speaking Ukrainian is up to them, but irrelevant to what we do in English. athel The athel...@yahoo entity posted thusly: >[ ... ] >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the Ukrainians do when speaking Ukrainian is up to them, but irrelevant >to what we do in English. To me, the definite article is used to denote an area that is part of a larger political entity. The midwest, the Florida Panhandle, the Sonora desert, and so on. I think the Ukrainians might be a little miffed at being called what they used to be, an area of the USSR, now that they are independent. [ ... ] > To me, the definite article is used to denote an area that is part of > a larger political entity. The midwest, the Florida Panhandle, the > Sonora desert, and so on. This seems quite arbitrary. What large political entity is the USA part of, for example? > I think the Ukrainians might be a little miffed at being called what > they used to be, an area of the USSR, now that they are independent. Is there any evidence whatsoever that people who call it the Ukraine do so in order to imply that it is part of the USSR? It had never occurred to me until you suggested it that the definite article carried this implication. If you consider the various countries that have or have had the definite article attached to their name the reasons seem pretty diverse -- "the Argentine" because it's short for "the Argentine Republic", "the Gambia" because the river of that name is its principal geographical feature, "the Lebanon" because the l is (I think) a vestige of the Arabic definite article, "the Ivory Coast" and "the Gold Coast" because normal grammatical rules demand it, "the Sudan", I've no idea, but it must be different from the ones I've given, "the Ukraine" because it is, I think, a translation of "the Southern Land". Now you may object that if the Ukraine is called the Southern Land then that in itself implies that it is the southern part of something bigger, but if so the problem is with the whole name, not just with the definite article. a. > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > This seems quite arbitrary. What large political entity is the USA > part of, for example? "The <nation-type> of <country>" is, of course, an exception. >> I think the Ukrainians might be a little miffed at being called >> what they used to be, an area of the USSR, now that they are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > occurred to me until you suggested it that the definite article > carried this implication. The notion appears to be that there are two separate readings for the word based on Slavic roots. The one that the Ukrainians prefer is basically "country" or "principality", i.e., "this country", "us", "here". The one they don't like, but the Russians preferred to emphasize is something like "frontier" or "borderland", i.e., "the part of Russia on the border over there". Encouraging "the Ukraine" can, indeed, be seen as a move on the part of the Soviets (and Russians before them) to have the region be considered to be properly part of Russia. Encouraging "Ukraine" (better would probably have gone further to "Ukraina") is a statement that that never was really the case. Of course, most people who call it "the Ukraine" now do so because that's the way they've always done so, much like people who still talk about "the Sudan" oor "the Gambia". > If you consider the various countries that have or have had the > definite article attached to their name the reasons seem pretty > diverse -- "the Argentine" because it's short for "the Argentine > Republic", I had thought that "the Argentine" predated the republic, but I can't actually find evidence of that. Even so, it's a bit strange. It would be like calling Switzerland "the Swiss". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Oh, forget it: I can't write about 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |this anymore until I find a much Palo Alto, CA 94304 |more sarcastic typeface. | Bill Bickel kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ [...] >> If you consider the various countries that have or have had the >> definite article attached to their name the reasons seem pretty [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > actually find evidence of that. Even so, it's a bit strange. It > would be like calling Switzerland "the Swiss". I have a faint residual imperialist tendency to say "the Argentine"; I've always thought it was short for something like "la tierra argentina" and became a national name later. . . but OED tells me the name was formed from "Rio de la Plata", presumably by partial translation into Latin (in which the word is certainly an adjective). This Latinisation isn't unique, of course: people spoke of "the southern continent" before coining "Australia", for example. Oh, and OED has only two examples of "the Argentine" for "Argentina", both from the same book, dated 1891. But it has been current much more recently: IIRC, English-speaking Argentines of British stock tended to use it. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com My understanding is that 'Raina' is old Ruthenian for 'country' and that the 'U' is itself a preposition. It may be that referring to the country as The Ukraine, you're actually saying; 'The The Country'. Richard Lichten > My understanding is that 'Raina' is old Ruthenian for 'country' and > that the 'U' is itself a preposition. It may be that referring to the > country as The Ukraine, you're actually saying; 'The The Country'. Don't tell the hoi polloi. SignatureBob Lieblich Posting from the County of Arlington > My understanding is that 'Raina' is old Ruthenian for 'country' and > that the 'U' is itself a preposition. It may be that referring to the > country as The Ukraine, you're actually saying; 'The The Country'. But how do you account for the K? SignatureRob Bannister > > My understanding is that 'Raina' is old Ruthenian for 'country' and > > that the 'U' is itself a preposition. It may be that referring to the > > country as The Ukraine, you're actually saying; 'The The Country'.But how do you account for the K? > -- > Rob Bannister On reflection I should have written Kraina meaning border. Richard >>>My understanding is that 'Raina' is old Ruthenian for 'country' and >>>that the 'U' is itself a preposition. It may be that referring to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > On reflection I should have written Kraina meaning border. Which brings us straight back to the "on the border" meaning, which is what most Slavs outside (the) Ukraine think it means. SignatureRob Bannister >> My understanding is that 'Raina' is old Ruthenian for 'country' and >> that the 'U' is itself a preposition. It may be that referring to the >> country as The Ukraine, you're actually saying; 'The The Country'. > > But how do you account for the K? Don't tell anyone, but it's actually "the UK country". SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. >Oh, and OED has only two examples of "the Argentine" for "Argentina", >both from the same book, dated 1891. But it has been current much more >recently: IIRC, English-speaking Argentines of British stock tended to >use it. That may not be significant, as the OED doesn't generally do placenames. He had a lot of stocks and shares And half a street in Buenos Aires,[1] A bank in Rio, and a line Of Steamers to the Argentine. [1] But this pronunciation varies. Some people call it Bu-enos Aires. -- Belloc Metafootnote: There's an accent on the "e" of "Aires". David >> Oh, and OED has only two examples of "the Argentine" for >> "Argentina", both from the same book, dated 1891. But it has been [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > [1] But this pronunciation varies. > Some people call it Bu-enos Aires. My mother once told me that, when a lass attending the Ottawa Ladies' College, she had been taught to say it _'bjun@s 'erz_ . > -- Belloc > > Metafootnote: There's an accent on the "e" of "Aires". Not in Espanish, there isn't. Unless you mean a Spanish accent, of course. > The notion appears to be that there are two separate readings for the > word based on Slavic roots. The one that the Ukrainians prefer is > basically "country" or "principality", i.e., "this country", "us", > "here". The one they don't like, but the Russians preferred to > emphasize is something like "frontier" or "borderland", i.e., "the > part of Russia on the border over there". I would be interested to know which Slavic root gives the "this country meaning". For most Western Slav languages it has to mean "on the border/edge". In Southern Slav, it would be worse: "at the end". Encouraging "the Ukraine" > can, indeed, be seen as a move on the part of the Soviets (and > Russians before them) to have the region be considered to be properly > part of Russia. This is the bit I find strange. Surely, it was called "the Ukraine" long before the Russian Revolution. SignatureRob Bannister >> The notion appears to be that there are two separate readings for >> the word based on Slavic roots. The one that the Ukrainians prefer [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > country meaning". For most Western Slav languages it has to mean "on > the border/edge". In Southern Slav, it would be worse: "at the end". I know that citing Wikipedia for something like this is putting me on shaky ground, but According to one theory, the Ukrainian word Ukrayina stems from the Old Slavic root kraj-, meaning 'land', 'region', 'country', but also 'edge' or 'borderland' (see below). In particular, in Ukrainian krayina means simply 'country'. Opinions vary as to the immediate derivation, but the first known mentioning in the Kiev Chronicle of 1187 probably uses the word in the meaning of 'region', 'principality', which might be defined as 'land cut out for a Prince' (maybe referring to the general feudal practice of a prince dividing land between his sons). Over time, as the dominant self-identification paradigms were changing, the word's initial meaning 'the land of the prince' may have transformed to a wider meaning. According to another theory, kraj- in the meaning of 'borderland', 'frontier' formed the basis for the modern name of the country (cf. Russian okraina, 'outskirts'; a semantic parallel to -mark in Denmark, cf. Marches; cf. also Krajina). The voivodship of Kiev, which was called Ukraina from the sixteenth century on, was on the south-eastern border of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine >> Encouraging "the Ukraine" can, indeed, be seen as a move on the >> part of the Soviets (and Russians before them) to have the region >> be considered to be properly part of Russia. > > This is the bit I find strange. Surely, it was called "the Ukraine" > long before the Russian Revolution. That's what I meant by "Russians before them". If there was more contact with Russians than with Ukranians, the meaning could have been "explained" in the most favorable way. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |English is about as pure as a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |cribhouse whore. We don't just Palo Alto, CA 94304 |borrow words; on occasion, English |has pursued other languages down kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |alleyways to beat them unconscious (650)857-7572 |and rifle their pockets for new |vocabulary. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --James D. Nicoll >>> The notion appears to be that there are two separate readings for >>> the word based on Slavic roots. The one that the Ukrainians prefer [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I know that citing Wikipedia for something like this is putting me on > shaky ground, but [snip] I should also point out that the Ukranian version of the article also appears to have a section on the etymology of the name. http://tinyurl.com/2nmwq7 <URL:http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0 %D1%97%D0%BD%D0%B0#.D0.9F.D0.BE.D1.85.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.B6.D0. B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.D0.BD.D0.B0.D0.B7.D0.B2.D0.B8_.D0.B4. D0.B5.D1.80.D0.B6.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.B8> Unfortnately, I can't read it. I see that theres also an article (in English) specifically on the name of the country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine The discussion page for that one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Name_of_Ukraine has an interesting argument that the "region" or "country" sense appears to date back to at least the 12th century. They give a quote from a 16th-century gospel, in which the word is used in the translation of "Judea" (the other word appears to be "Jewish") in John 7:1. (Note that in that verse, Jesus is staying in Galilee to avoid Judea. If either of those would be considered a "border", it would be Galilee.) According to this author, the "borderland" sense appears to have arisen in the 16th century. Note that this particular author believes that the name derives from the second ("border") sense, although others there disagree. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |This gubblick contains many 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the overall pluggandisp can be |glorked from context. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | (650)857-7572 | David Moser http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>I would be interested to know which Slavic root gives the "this >>country meaning". For most Western Slav languages it has to mean "on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the Old Slavic root kraj-, meaning 'land', 'region', 'country', > but also 'edge' or 'borderland' (see below). I've had another think about this. You are correct: one meaning of kraj, that I had forgotten, is indeed region, even in Southern Slavic where "moj roden kraj" means "the area where I was born". SignatureRob Bannister The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: >>>I would be interested to know which Slavic root gives the "this >>>country meaning". For most Western Slav languages it has to mean "on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >that I had forgotten, is indeed region, even in Southern Slavic where >"moj roden kraj" means "the area where I was born". Ooo! Does that have any relationship to "Rodina"? > The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: >> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >>> Robert Bannister writes: >>>> I would be interested to know which Slavic root gives the "this >>>> country meaning". For most Western Slav languages it has to mean [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Ooo! Does that have any relationship to "Rodina"? All together now: "Za Rodinu, za Stalina!" SignatureSkitt At trakiem tikai ar labu. > The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Ooo! Does that have any relationship to "Rodina"? Both from the same root, of course. Jac sum roden means I was born. SignatureRob Bannister > Encouraging "the Ukraine" > > can, indeed, be seen as a move on the part of the Soviets (and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > This is the bit I find strange. Surely, it was called "the Ukraine" long > before the Russian Revolution. If only there was an easy way to find out if phrases were used in the olden days... I know! Let's go to Making of America's 19th century collection! You searched: All Selected Collections for "the ukraine" Results: 402 matches in 178 records And for the heck of it, Google Books (discounting for their flaw of dating long runs of journals by the first year): 809 on "the ukraine" date:0-1915 Ukrainians could have as much distate for being considered a mere region of imperial Russia as much as a region of the USSR, of course. This topic has come up repeatedly before. There's still a 2004 Guardian article about the controversy, including the speculation about Soviet translators, at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1282935,00.html SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux In alt.usage.english, Donna Richoux wrote: [...] >Ukrainians could have as much distate for being considered a mere region >of imperial Russia as much as a region of the USSR, of course. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >translators, at: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1282935,00.html When Mercia gets its independence, we're going the other way. We're going to insist on The Mercia. (Not to be confused with Amercia.) SignatureV posting from Craven Arms, self-styled Gateway to the Marches [...] V posting from Craven Arms, self-styled Gateway to the Marches It occurs to me to wonder if the US has many towns and villages (AmE "cities") named after pubs. You'd expect there to be few of them in the UK, where settlements and their names have been around for centuries or millennia, but actually they're legion, or at any rate cohort -- more than decury, anyhow. I suppose the westward drive was too fast for that kind of thing in the New World. My vague recollection is that Australia has few if any examples. Wales has not only its fair share of "Cross Hands" and such, but also lots of biblical village names deriving from the local chapels. There's always a rush on the post office in Bethlehem in December. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Mike Lyle filted: >It occurs to me to wonder if the US has many towns and villages (AmE >"cities") named after pubs. You'd expect there to be few of them in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >kind of thing in the New World. My vague recollection is that Australia >has few if any examples. The California town/village/city of Yreka was, according to a local apocryphal story, named for the bakery in which the town meeting was held...someone pointed to the window with the word "BAKERY" painted on it, which read backwards when seen from inside...(accounts differ as to why the B was omitted).... The bakery itself is gone now, but one establishment in the town still bears the palindromic name "Yrella Gallery"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > [...] > V > posting from Craven Arms, self-styled Gateway to the Marches > > It occurs to me to wonder if the US has many towns and villages > (AmE "cities") named after pubs. I know of only one: the nearly-invisible settlement named "Boyd's Tavern" near Charlottesville, Virginia. > You'd expect there to be few of > them in the UK, where settlements and their names have been [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > chapels. There's always a rush on the post office in Bethlehem > in December. Not quite in the same class, but there are some settlements that seem to have been named because of single structures: Washington Court House, Ohio, for example. And then there's Eleva, the town in Wisconsin that would have had a slightly different name if the sign painter had finished painting the word "Elevator" on the big grain storage structure there. Signaturerzed > Not quite in the same class, but there are some settlements that > seem to have been named because of single structures: Washington > Court House, Ohio, for example. And then there's Eleva, the town > in Wisconsin that would have had a slightly different name if the > sign painter had finished painting the word "Elevator" on the big > grain storage structure there. Coalinga, California might count, as well. It was "Coaling [station] A" along one of the rail lines. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Any programming problem can be 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |solved by adding another layer of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |indirection. Any performance |problem can be solved by removing kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |one. (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Not quite in the same class, but there are some settlements that >> seem to have been named because of single structures: Washington [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Coalinga, California might count, as well. It was "Coaling [station] > A" along one of the rail lines. West Intercourse Island, off the coast of Western Australia, supposedly got its name when a sailor referred to it as "West f.ck". Of course I can't find any official documents that confirm or deny this. In 1993 I mentioned, in this group, a newspaper article saying that the name was changed from "West Intercourse" to "West Innercourse" because the locals felt that the former name was undignified. It now appears as if this change either never happened or was reversed, because East and West Innercourse can no longer be found on maps. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. rzed wrote: Not quite in the same class, but there are some settlements that seem to have been named because of single structures: Washington Court House, Ohio, for example. And then there's Eleva, the town in Wisconsin that would have had a slightly different name if the sign painter had finished painting the word "Elevator" on the big grain storage structure there. Coalinga, California might count, as well. It was "Coaling [station] A" along one of the rail lines. And, closer to home, "Palo Alto" was so named because of a single tree. Plus, twenty-some towns in California are named after Spanish missions. These missions were named after somebody or something, but so too were the elesethread pubs, I suppose. -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Not quite in the same class, but there are some settlements that >seem to have been named because of single structures: Washington >Court House, Ohio, for example. There are dozens if not hundreds of these in The South. There are probably dozens just in Virginia alone, although I haven't tried to count. Generally, X C.H. is where the county seat of X county is, or once was. Likewise, there are many X's Ferrys where Mr. X used to own a ferry launch. Since The South generally does not have local government outside of cities, many of these place-names are not shown on maps; the USGS calls them "populated places", and GNIS counts 51 "Court House"s and 16 "Ferry"s (although this includes historical variant names) in Virginia alone. For the whole country, there are 231 Ferrys and 105 Court Houses. Note in particular that Washington Court House, Ohio, only adopted that name in 2003! Previously, its official name (as chartered) was Washington, Ohio. Speaking of which, there are 35 places whose current official name is "Washington"; Arkansas, Iowa, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania each have two. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote: >It occurs to me to wonder if the US has many towns and villages (AmE >"cities") named after pubs. You'd expect there to be few of them in the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >lots of biblical village names deriving from the local chapels. There's >always a rush on the post office in Bethlehem in December. Pub? Pub! It's "the big 'otel" in local parlance, and don't you forget it. Though I don't think they have rooms. It's a scruffy pool-table-'n'-noisy-jukebox boozer full of underaged drinkers. Allegedly. Possibly. Nobody sue me. It's these glasses, hofficer. I'm not wearing any, you see? Besides, you're one to talk. You look about fourteen. You'll probably not be surprised to hear that it was a coaching inn. The inn was also on a major droving route, so it must have been quite an important junction. All the same, you won't see a Craven Arms on any map until ... dunno. When the railway arrived. The very late 19th century, I think. If there was a dot on the map near here it was either marking an exquisite fortified manor house whose name, alarmingly, currently escapes me or the now totally insignificant village of Wistanstow (it's a hotbed of lukewarm LibDem activism). SignatureV [...] [Craven Arms] > You'll probably not be surprised to hear that it was a coaching inn. > The inn was also on a major droving route, so it must have been quite > an important junction. All the same, you won't see a Craven Arms on > any map until ... dunno. When the railway arrived. The very late 19th > century, I think. [...] Because I failed to give it to my brother for Christmas, I have here the 1893 railway map of England and Wales, a wonderful document. No Scotland, though, which is mortifying. It shows "Craven Arms & Stokesay". I see that the road atlas doesn't bother with Stokesay, though it does have Stokesay Castle -- is that the gem you mention? I think I've seen it in a book: if so, it really is a gem. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote: >Because I failed to give it to my brother for Christmas, Ah. I'm not the only one, then. I'm forever hanging on to presents. I recently lost my car keys in a puddle. Fortunately, I had once bought a cheap metal detector for a nephew who was thinking of becoming an archaeologist. It sat in a drawer for ten years, a continuous lurking reproach. But the nephew eventually changed his mind and one wet day the ungiven gift helped me out of a tight corner. There's a lesson for life in there somewhere, boys. Now whittle your sticks while I put another billy on the fire. >I have here the 1893 railway map of England and Wales, a wonderful >document. No Scotland, though, which is mortifying. It shows "Craven >Arms & Stokesay". I see that the road atlas doesn't bother with >Stokesay, though it does have Stokesay Castle -- is that the gem you >mention? I think I've seen it in a book: if so, it really is a gem. That's the one. I stumbled on a history of the Craven Arms to Bishop's Castle line last night. I had always thought it had been closed by Beeching but in fact it closed in 1935 when, after being in receivership for 69 years of its 70-year history, the receiver finally decided that it would never make a profit and pulled the plug. The rails are said to have been used to build HMS Prince of Wales, the battleship sunk off Malaya in 1941. I live next to a stretch of the line that in 1877 was repossessed by an irate widow who claimed she had never been paid for the land. The bailiffs removed a rail and built a barricade, cutting Bishop's Castle off from the rest of the rail network. The town soon ran short of coal and other essentials. A party of Craven Arms men, who may or may not have been railway employees, met in the Big Hotel to devise a cunning plan for the relief of their beleaguered neighbours. Gin was to be slipped into the bailiffs' beer, rendering them insensible while the rail was quietly replaced. Meanwhile, a stolen loco and several loaded wagons would be edged along the line. Although the plotters were themselves less than sober, the plan worked. The train broke through! Bishop's Castle had been relieved! Flags were waved! Hats were thrown in the air! More gin was drunk! It is said* that, 25 years later, Lord Bobs of Kabul and Kandahar had a map of the Bishop's Castle line hanging in his tent when he planned the relief of Mafeking. Hurrah! *It is now, anyway. SignatureV Happy Australia Day! Hurrah! Hurrah! > It occurs to me to wonder if the US has many towns and villages (AmE > "cities") named after pubs. You'd expect there to be few of them in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > too fast for that kind of thing in the New World. My vague > recollection is that Australia has few if any examples. The town in NSW called Wiseman's Ferry still prospers, and the ferry is still the only way to cross the river. If I did a bit of searching I imagine I could find a few more Australian towns named after bridges or fords. Indeed, now that I think of it the town of Broadford is not far from where I grew up. That town, Seymour in Victoria, was briefly known as "The New Crossing Place" when someone found a better way to get across the Goulburn River when travelling from Melbourne to Sydney, but it got a proper name once a few buildings were established in the area. Bridges play an important part in Australia culture. It is said that if you constructed a bridge in the middle of the desert, by nightfall there would be a dozen fishermen on it. My favourite Australian bridge is at Gundagai. It's about a kilometre long, it's single-lane (but with the occasional siding for when you met a car coming the other way), and when driving along it you had to watch out for missing or rotten boards. This was part of a national highway linking the country's two largest cities. It was replaced about 20 years ago. The old bridge still exists, but there are barriers to stop people walking onto it. The only Australian town I can think of that was named after a pub is Ettamogah, but that one is fictional. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > > It occurs to me to wonder if the US has many towns and villages (AmE > > "cities") named after pubs. You'd expect there to be few of them in [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > The only Australian town I can think of that was named after a pub is > Ettamogah, but that one is fictional. I don't think they have pubs in Utah, but there's a town there called "Helper." In the old days of steam locomotives, it was the practice to hook an extra locomotive to a train to add the necessary oomph to get the train over a high pass. The extra locomotive was called a helper, and a town where a helper was often attached became "Helper." http://www.onlineutah.com/helperhistory.shtml One of the ways you used to could cross the Colorado River was on a ferry that was operated by a man named "Lee." The site where that used to happen is still called "Lees Ferry." http://www.americansouthwest.net/arizona/lees_ferry/index.html >One of the ways you used to could cross the Colorado River >was on a ferry that was operated by a man named "Lee." The >site where that used to happen is still called "Lees Ferry." >http://www.americansouthwest.net/arizona/lees_ferry/index.html Indeed - I have a couple of pictures I took while there briefly - http://www.pajarowatershed.com/Aarde/pages/137_3772.htm The ferry was established here because it was the lowest point on the river that was easily accessible for crossing by horses (and men). Just a little further downstream the river banks rise to become what is known as the Grand Canyon - at which point, if you are a cross-country trekker, it is a real pain in the arse to get from one bank of the river to the other. Jitze The Peter Moylan entity posted thusly: >> It occurs to me to wonder if the US has many towns and villages (AmE >> "cities") named after pubs. You'd expect there to be few of them in [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >ago. The old bridge still exists, but there are barriers to stop people >walking onto it. I have two favourites, and both were in BC (I say 'both' because one is, I believe, gone). 1. The Alexandria Bridge. Goes across the Fraser Canyon. I loved it when I was a lad, because of the sound of the tires on the metal deck. It was a sort of corrugated or egg-crate surface, and when crossing it, the sound was like a loud propeller-drien airplane. 2. The bridge at a little town called Grindrod (pronounced "grin-rod"). The roads on each end of the bridge were at 90 degrees to the river, but they did not align. rather than change the roadways, they built the bridge in an 'S' shape. This one is no longer there. >It occurs to me to wonder if the US has many towns and villages (AmE >"cities") named after pubs. You'd expect there to be few of them in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >kind of thing in the New World. My vague recollection is that Australia >has few if any examples. There's a whole bunch of them in Lancaster County, PA. http://www.geocities.com/mapguygk07/Lancaster/ has some nice photos of signs that show the origin of the place name. Probably the biggest in the UK is Nelson which is a fair sized town. SignatureOn-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon > V posting from Craven Arms, self-styled Gateway to the Marches To the best of my recollection, this is only the second example I've seen of a "Gateway to the <xxx>". (The first was, of course, Balham.) Is this a specifically English thing? SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >> V posting from Craven Arms, self-styled Gateway to the Marches > >To the best of my recollection, this is only the second example I've >seen of a "Gateway to the <xxx>". (The first was, of course, Balham.) Is >this a specifically English thing? I haven't heard of another either. Perhaps the local worthies were Peter Sellers fans. The odd thing about CA being the Gateway to the Marches is that it's in the middle of the Marches. SignatureV Happy Australia Day! >In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >The odd thing about CA being the Gateway to the Marches is that it's in >the middle of the Marches. Wooler -- Gateway to the Cheviots www.wooler.org.uk/ West Bay, Bridport, Dorset -- Official Gateway to the Jurassic Coast www.westbay.co.uk/ Wendover -- Gateway to the Chilterns www.chilternweb.co.uk/wendover/ Skipton -- Gateway to the Dales ("Official", whatever that means) www.skiptononline.co.uk/ but... Otley -- Gateway to the Yorkshire Dales www.vrotley.co.uk/ Oban -- Gateway to the Isles www.oban.org.uk/ Barrow-in-Furness -- Gateway to the Lake District (and Britain's Newest Cruise-Liner Port) www.lake-district-peninsulas.co.uk/cruise-ships.htm Crakehall -- Gateway to Wensleydale www.crakehall.org.uk/ While Hebden Bridge, Rochdale, Barnsley and no doubt others all claim to be the "Gateway to the Pennines". SignatureArchie Valparaiso (Me? I blame the weather.) >>In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >>I haven't heard of another either. [snip gateways-a-go-go] It's just dawned on me that the nowest and happeningest English regions are no longer known by their geographical names, but rather by the names of the writers, artists, buildings, theme parks, novels, happenings or even sitcoms that are associated with them in the public imagination. This means that Greater Manchester, for example, could promote itself as "Industrial Revolution Country", although if they're smart they'll go with "Theatre of Dreams Country" or, even better, "Bernard Manning's World Famous Embassy Club Country". So, if we extend the search to <gateway to * country site:.uk>, we get: Manningtree -- Gateway to Constable Country (formerly Essex) www.realessex.co.uk/experience_essex/ Hexham -- Gateway to Hadrian's Wall Country (formerly Northumberland) www.blanchland.org.uk/ Bradford -- Gateway to Brontë Country (formerly the West Riding) (See Hansard 1997, maiden speech of Marsha Singh, MP for Bradford West) Hartfield, E. Sussex -- Gateway to Pooh Country (formerly Sussex) www.pooh-country.co.uk/ Crakehall -- Gateway to Herriot Country (formerly the Cheviots) Camelford -- Gateway to Camelot Country (formerly N. Cornwall) www.cornwall-online.co.uk/north-cornwall/camelfor.htm Callander -- Gateway to Rob Roy Country (formerly Perthshire) www.perthshire-scotland.co.uk/towns.htm Sherborne -- Gateway to Hardy Country (formerly Dorset) http://services.westdorset-dc.gov.uk/websites/SherborneTownCouncil/ Linton -- Gateway to Lorna Doone Country (formerly Exmoor) (no URL, but I remember it well from when I was there in the early '80s) But my favourite of all has to be: Huddersfield -- Gateway to Last of the Summer Wine Country http://www2.halifaxtoday.co.uk/southpenninevisitor (Huddersfield and District Council Tourism Committee strategy meeting: "So, how do we feel about "Moors Murders Shallow Graves Country", everyone?) SignatureArchie Valparaiso (Me? I blame the weather.) > It's just dawned on me that the nowest and happeningest English > regions are no longer known by their geographical names, but rather by > the names of the writers, artists, buildings, theme parks, novels, > happenings or even sitcoms that are associated with them in the public > imagination. Didn't I just hear about Robin Hood Airport? Is that real or proposed? SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>It's just dawned on me that the nowest and happeningest English >>regions are no longer known by their geographical names, but rather by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Didn't I just hear about Robin Hood Airport? Is that real or proposed? It seems to be real, an in Doncaster: http://www.robinhoodairport.com/index.php Doesn't everyone associate Doncaster with Robin Hood? Fran >>>It's just dawned on me that the nowest and happeningest English >>>regions are no longer known by their geographical names, but rather by [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Doesn't everyone associate Doncaster with Robin Hood? That's what I thought but "legend" does make the link, apparently: The name has [...] been a source of controversy, but airport officials argue Doncaster's links with Robin Hood are strong enough. Legend has it that he married Maid Marian nearby. www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire/content/articles/2005/04/27/airport_opening_feature .shtml It turns out that "Robin Hood Doncaster Sheffield International Airport" (I kid you not -- couldn't they have managed to squeeze Rotherham, Worksop and Bawtry in there too?) is actually RAF Finningley tarted up for use by package flights to Benidorm. As for the green-clad one in green tights, the airport's code is "DSA" (presumably from Doncaster Sheffield Airport), so it doesn't seem like the air-traffic authorities make much of an association, either. SignatureArchie Valparaiso (Me? I blame the weather.) >>>> It's just dawned on me that the nowest and happeningest English >>>> regions are no longer known by their geographical names, but [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > officials argue Doncaster's links with Robin Hood are strong > enough. Legend has it that he married Maid Marian nearby. Marian Nearby? Was she one of the Nottinghamshire Nearbys? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford The Frances Kemmish entity posted thusly: >>>It's just dawned on me that the nowest and happeningest English >>>regions are no longer known by their geographical names, but rather by [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Doesn't everyone associate Doncaster with Robin Hood? No. Only with Sherwood Forest. > The Frances Kemmish entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > No. Only with Sherwood Forest. And Nottingham. >>The Frances Kemmish entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > And Nottingham. And Robin Hood Bay which is nowhere near. SignatureRob Bannister In alt.usage.english, Archie Valparaiso wrote: [snip vast lists of Gateways] OK. I surrender. I was the Gateway to Ignorance. SignatureV > In alt.usage.english, Archie Valparaiso wrote: > > [snip vast lists of Gateways] > > OK. I surrender. I was the Gateway to Ignorance. The Gateway to Ignorance is the Portal to Enrightenment, Glasshopper. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> In alt.usage.english, Archie Valparaiso wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >The Gateway to Ignorance is the Portal to Enrightenment, Glasshopper. I thought that was Cheam. SignatureArchie Valparaiso (Me? I blame the weather.) In alt.usage.english, Archie Valparaiso wrote: >On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:52:33 -0000, "Mike Lyle" >>"Vinny Burgoo" <hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message >>> OK. I surrender. I was the Gateway to Ignorance. >> >>The Gateway to Ignorance is the Portal to Enrightenment, Glasshopper. > >I thought that was Cheam. Verily. For does Cheam not lead to Carshalton? SignatureV >I thought that was Cheam.Verily. For does Cheam not lead to Carshalton? You're giving your outer-suburban roots away there. Cheam leads to Ewell if you are coming from Mitcham Junction. In alt.usage.english, contrex wrote: >>I thought that was Cheam.Verily. For does Cheam not lead to Carshalton? > >You're giving your outer-suburban roots away there. Cheam leads to >Ewell if you are coming from Mitcham Junction. Mitcham Junction? Pah! Now that *is* outer-suburban. I always came from Tooting, dontcha know (even when I was coming from Battersea). SignatureV Carshalton is a state of mind >In alt.usage.english, Archie Valparaiso wrote: > >[snip vast lists of Gateways] > >OK. I surrender. I was the Gateway to Ignorance. St Louis MO claims to be the "Gateway to the West" and has an arch to prove it: http://www.nps.gov/jeff/ It seems to me that St Louis would also be the "Gateway to the East" to those driving into the city from the west, but I guess that's just a quibble. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >In alt.usage.english, Archie Valparaiso wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Tony Cooper > Orlando, FL I once went through Craven Arms on the way to Ludlow races. Sadly, I blinked. Richard Lichten In alt.usage.english, Turenne wrote: >I once went through Craven Arms on the way to Ludlow races. Sadly, I >blinked. Not a bad idea. Not only is there not much of it but it's nothing much to look at. SignatureV In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper wrote: >St Louis MO claims to be the "Gateway to the West" and has an arch to >prove it: http://www.nps.gov/jeff/ > >It seems to me that St Louis would also be the "Gateway to the East" >to those driving into the city from the west, but I guess that's just >a quibble. Or, on the Craven Arms model, it's the Gateway to Somewhere You've Just Been. Incidentally, the Arch FAQ at that site gives a curiously defensive answer to one of the questions. Are there restrooms or a snack bar at the top? There are no facilities at the top of the Arch; there was never a snack bar or restaurant at the top. It's as though there's a well-known urban legend about there once having been a snack bar at the top of the Arch. Or is it just local idiom? SignatureV > Incidentally, the Arch FAQ at that site gives a curiously defensive > answer to one of the questions. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It's as though there's a well-known urban legend about there once > having been a snack bar at the top of the Arch. Not that I've ever heard, but then I've never been up the Arch or discussed it much with others. > Or is it just local idiom? Is what a local idiom? Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) In alt.usage.english, Default User wrote: >> Incidentally, the Arch FAQ at that site gives a curiously defensive >> answer to one of the questions. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Is what a local idiom? A possible "... there was never ..." = BrE "... there isn't ...". But I've just had a Road to St Louis Moment: "facilities" here means toilets (lavatories, WCs, restrooms, powder-rooms, crappers) and only toilets. It doesn't mean the whole lot - restrooms, snack bars and whatever else the Arch might have provided in the way of (BrE) facilities for the tourists' ease, convenience and spending enjoyment. This makes the second half of the sentence less peculiar (although it is still a little odd). "Facilities" can sometimes mean toilets in BrE but it would never be used to mean that in answer to a question about wider facilities - toilets plus, if you like. SignatureV "If a student of mine were to hand in this report as a Masters thesis, perhaps if I were in a good mood I would give him a 'D' for diligence; but more likely I would give him an 'F' for fail." - Prof Richard Tol on the Stern Review > In alt.usage.english, Default User wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > A possible "... there was never ..." = BrE "... there isn't ...". No, "there was never" means "there never was" in the local speak. > But I've just had a Road to St Louis Moment: "facilities" here means > toilets (lavatories, WCs, restrooms, powder-rooms, crappers) and only [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > enjoyment. This makes the second half of the sentence less peculiar > (although it is still a little odd). No, "facilities" would normally mean restrooms here. > "Facilities" can sometimes mean toilets in BrE but it would never be > used to mean that in answer to a question about wider facilities - > toilets plus, if you like. I'm not entirely sure what BrE has to do with it. St. Louis is in the USA. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) In alt.usage.english, Default User wrote: >> "Facilities" can sometimes mean toilets in BrE but it would never be >> used to mean that in answer to a question about wider facilities - >> toilets plus, if you like. > >I'm not entirely sure what BrE has to do with it. St. Louis is in the >USA. Is it? I'm ever so sorry. I didn't mean to cause any offence. Please forgive me for anything that might have been over the line. It certainly wasn't intentional. I really didn't mean to imply anything other than what I stated. I do hope you'll forgive me. Sorry. SignatureV "If a student of mine were to hand in this report as a Masters thesis, perhaps if I were in a good mood I would give him a 'D' for diligence; but more likely I would give him an 'F' for fail." - Prof Richard Tol on the Stern Review > In alt.usage.english, Default User wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Is it? Why, what have you heard? Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) > In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I haven't heard of another either. Perhaps the local worthies were Peter > Sellers fans. Ashbourne, Buxton and Glossop all claim to be the Gateway to the Peak District. > The odd thing about CA being the Gateway to the Marches is that it's in > the middle of the Marches. Well, you don't always find the gate on the edge of the property. Fran In alt.usage.english, Frances Kemmish wrote: >> In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: >>> To the best of my recollection, this is only the second example I've >>> seen of a "Gateway to the <xxx>". (The first was, of course, Balham.) Is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Well, you don't always find the gate on the edge of the property. Not always. Just usually. Perhaps it's a way of economising on Gateways. Perhaps the more authentically gatelike Ashbourne, Buxton and Glossop should hand their keys to the more central [checks map] Castleton. SignatureV > In alt.usage.english, Frances Kemmish wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > authentically gatelike Ashbourne, Buxton and Glossop should hand their > keys to the more central [checks map] Castleton. Perhaps that's the garden gate. >In alt.usage.english, Frances Kemmish wrote: >>> In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >authentically gatelike Ashbourne, Buxton and Glossop should hand their >keys to the more central [checks map] Castleton. No, Castleton is the Backdoor Gateway to the Gateway to Last of the Summer Wine Country. SignatureArchie Valparaiso (Me? I blame the weather.) The Evan Kirshenbaum entity posted thusly: >> [ ... ] >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >gone further to "Ukraina") is a statement that that never was really >the case. The Ukrainians are quite sensitive about the whole USSR/Russian thing. A niece and nephew are members of a Ukrainian dance ensemble that made a trip to Ukraine last year (in August). They were scheduled to dance at the Independence Day festivities in Kyiv (or Kiev, if you prefer), but the government wanted the festivities tones down to practically nothing, so as not to reawaken the big red bear. As a result, they did not dance, though they did dance in a few other venues. >Of course, most people who call it "the Ukraine" now do so because >that's the way they've always done so, much like people who still talk [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >actually find evidence of that. Even so, it's a bit strange. It >would be like calling Switzerland "the Swiss". For some reason I always associated "the Argentine" with an area not politically delimited, and Argentina as the politically delimited country. I also associate the name with "silver", perhaps because of "argent". [ ... ] > For some reason I always associated "the Argentine" with an area not > politically delimited, In a sort of sense you are right, because Argentina has border disputes with all of its neighbours, but in a more meaningful sense, no. >and Argentina as the politically delimited > country. > > I also associate the name with "silver", perhaps because of "argent". As indeed you should, because that's what the name means. athel > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > geographical feature, "the Lebanon" because the l is (I think) a > vestige of theArabicdefinite article, "the Ivory Coast" and "the Gold there is no definite artcile inarabic for "Lebanon" : lubna:n > Coast" because normal grammatical rules demand it, "the Sudan", I've no > idea, but it must be different from the ones I've given, "the Ukraine" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > a. > [ ... ] >> >> Oleg, from the Canada. > There you pinpoint the problem. Francophones do indeed call it "le > Canada" and I think they already had named (part of) it thus before the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the Ukrainians do when speaking Ukrainian is up to them, but irrelevant > to what we do in English. But what is used in English appears to be changing. I've noticed that 'the Ukraine' seems to be passing out of use in favour of 'Ukraine', and I recently found out from a Sudanese person speaking English that 'Sudan' is preferred over 'the Sudan' in English. I think I read something similar about another country - Gambia, perhaps? - along with speculation that 'the' is being interpreted as meaning a geographical region (as in 'the Prairies'), and is therefore now considered inappropriate in the name of a nation. SignatureCheryl On Jan 23, 10:45 am, Tony Cooper [snip] > obAue: I always say and write "the Ukraine". Do others usually use > the definite article? Seems odd to do when, in the country in > question, definite articles are seldom used. [snip] This webpage suggests that the use of the definite article in front of "Ukraine" is passing out of favor: http://www.torugg.org/ukraine_or_the_ukraine.html [excerpt] Is there any [..] reason to use the definite article in English with Ukraine? Usage has been suggested as a reason but this cannot be accepted today since the majority of books and newspapers do not use it. For example, the authoritative five volume Encyclopedia of Ukraine edited by Danylo Struk and published by the University of Toronto Press does not use it. The article is not used by such prominent publications as The Ukrainian Quarterly (New York), Ukrainian Review (London, England), Forum Ukrainian Review (Scranton, Pa.), Ukrainian Voice (Winnipeg), Ukrainian Echo (Toronto), Journal of Ukrainian Studies (Toronto), Ukrainian News (Edmonton) or News From Ukraine (Kiev). In fact, today there is no Ukrainian periodical in English which uses the article although Harvard Ukrainian Studies once forced it on scholarly contributors. But what about the regular daily press in the USA, Canada and England? Even The New York Times (which once required it in its Style Guide) does not use it now. Neither do The Times (London), The Economist (London), Washington Post, TIME, Newsweek or Maclean's. News services such as Canadian Press, Reuters, CNN and Associated Press do not use the article. When the December 1991 referendum confirmed the independence of Ukraine the White House in Washington, D.C. officially announced that it would discontinue use of the definite article before the name Ukraine. Even the computer age has ruled that "the" Ukraine is wrong in English. Gram-mat-ik, the very popular grammar and style checker for computers by Reference Software International of San Francisco, uses Ukraine without the article and labels "the Ukraine" as a mistake of grammar. [end excerpt] Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego (snipped) > The author writes: (about a bride at her wedding) "Despite her slim > build, she must have been visibly pregnant." > That's at cross-purposes to me. "Due to her slim build, she must have > been visibly pregnant" would seem better. "Despite" seems > contradictory to the image. "...contradictory to the image...." Contradictory to _her_ image. This is the point of this authoress; contradiction. Her passage is very nicely written, very creative and invokes emotional response which is the prime objective of a writer. Despite: contradiction of the obvious, or seemingly obvious, a strong emotion invoking contradiction. Her slim figure and her pregnant belly are at odds, are arguing for recognition. "Despite his knife fight scarred face, his words are that of a handsome silver tongued devil." "Despite her slim build, she must have been visibly pregnant. Some gossipy old women roll their eyes, other more mannered women make effort to not stare at the bride's slightly swollen and clearly pregnant rounded belly. Quiet snickers are heard amongst the men. Her pregnancy had been a secret until this wedding day. Nonetheless, her groom walked with pride, walked with a slight smile, walked with his bride, shoulder-to-shoulder, in mutual love, and mutual respect." Purl Gurl >(snipped) > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >"...contradictory to the image...." Contradictory to _her_ image. No, it's not _her_ image. It is the author's image; the image the author creates. And, the image is contradictory. >This is the point of this authoress; contradiction. Her passage is >very nicely written, very creative and invokes emotional response >which is the prime objective of a writer. >Despite: contradiction of the obvious, or seemingly obvious, a strong >emotion invoking contradiction. Her slim figure and her pregnant belly [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >her groom walked with pride, walked with a slight smile, walked with >his bride, shoulder-to-shoulder, in mutual love, and mutual respect." Well, you certainly have the bit in your teeth. This, despite having read a sentence and not a passage. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL (snipped) >>"...contradictory to the image...." Contradictory to _her_ image. > No, it's not _her_ image. It is the author's image; the image the > author creates. "Authoress" - female. "Bride" - character is female. You state, "...the author's image...." She is female, "her image." This image is of a female character, a bride. This image is not "the" image, this image is her image. No matter how you twist this around, author is female, character is female, image belongs to a female. Now what? Whatever! This image is created by a bride. This is _her_ image. > Well, you certainly have the bit in your teeth. No, I ride bareback and am ridden bareback; no bit save for any bit I am fit to inflict, or to smit. Purl Gurl > obAue: I always say and write "the Ukraine". Do others usually use > the definite article? Seems odd to do when, in the country in > question, definite articles are seldom used. I think it lost its article when the Soviet Union disbanded. --Jeff SignatureI believe I found the missing link between animal and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz > I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when > I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > the definite article? Seems odd to do when, in the country in > question, definite articles are seldom used. It sounds like a bad translation and the country is now just Ukraine. The truth is I always wondered why they rated a "THE" anyway .Are there lesser ukraines they needed to be differentiated from like The Moon has to deal with? > I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when > I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are > right. Or grammatical. Or idiomatic. > > I'm currently reading "A Short History of Tractors In Ukrainian" by > Marina Lewycka. Despite the title, it's a novel. That title reminds me of a book in my father's possession, called 'Golfing for Cats'. I recall that in the foreword, the author stated that he wanted an incongruous combination in the title. I forget why. I should add that the cover was simply a Nazi swastika, and the book was a collection of short stories of varying degrees of hilarity. One of them, I think, was a monologue by Winnie-the-Pooh. As I started typing this post, I couldn't remember who the author was; only that he was an English humourist. Googling reveals that the author is Alan Coren, and his daughter is a poker champion. ObAue: Where is 'golfing' used in preference to 'golf'? Stupot >ObAue: Where is 'golfing' used in preference to 'golf'? One goes golfing, but plays golf. However, one can have a "golf buddy" or a "golfing buddy". SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>ObAue: Where is 'golfing' used in preference to 'golf'? > > One goes golfing, but plays golf. However, one can have a "golf > buddy" or a "golfing buddy". "Golf with Cats" wouldn't be clear about the nature of the cats' participation; think Alice in Wonderland and croquet with flamingos. --Jeff SignatureI believe I found the missing link between animal and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz > >>ObAue: Where is 'golfing' used in preference to 'golf'? > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Golf with Cats" wouldn't be clear about the nature of the cats' > participation; think Alice in Wonderland and croquet with flamingos. It's incongruous either way, which I think was the original point. SignatureBob Lieblich Fishing with worms Robert Lieblich filted: >> "Golf with Cats" wouldn't be clear about the nature of the cats' >> participation; think Alice in Wonderland and croquet with flamingos. > >It's incongruous either way, which I think was the original point. Or maybe the author got advice similar to that followed by Ruben Bolling when he put out a collection of his "Tom the Dancing Bug" cartoons...assured that books about cats, golf, and self-help always sell well, he gave his book the title "All I Ever Needed To Know I Learned From My Golf-Playing Cats".... Apart from the picture on the cover, the book contains no more about cats or golf than it does about bugs or dancing...I came very close to passing it up entirely until I happened upon its true nature, so insipid was the implied subject matter....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > That title reminds me of a book in my father's possession, called 'Golfing > for Cats'. I recall that in the foreword, the author stated that he wanted an [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that he was an English humourist. Googling reveals that the author is Alan > Coren, and his daughter is a poker champion. The cover was a joke, which Coren explained at the time. He noted that bookshops were full of books about cats, books about golfing, and books about the Nazis. So a book which appeared to comnine all three would undoubtedly become a best seller. Matthew Huntbach > I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when > I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are > right. Or grammatical. Or idiomatic. > > I'm currently reading "A Short History of Tractors In Ukrainian" by > Marina Lewycka. Despite the title, it's a novel. That title reminds me of a book in my father's possession, called 'Golfing for Cats'. I recall that in the foreword, the author stated that he wanted an incongruous combination in the title. I forget why. I should add that the cover was simply a Nazi swastika, and the book was a collection of short stories of varying degrees of hilarity. One of them, I think, was a monologue by Winnie-the-Pooh. As I started typing this post, I couldn't remember who the author was; only that he was an English humourist. Googling reveals that the author is Alan Coren, and his daughter is a poker champion. ObAue: Where is 'golfing' used in preference to 'golf'? Stupot > That title reminds me of a book in my father's possession, called > 'Golfing for Cats'. I recall that in the foreword, the author stated [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > ObAue: Where is 'golfing' used in preference to 'golf'? In phrases like "went golfing". My first thought is that the title is meant to evoke "Bowling for Dollars". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |To find the end of Middle English, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you discover the exact date and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time the Great Vowel Shift took |place (the morning of May 5, 1450, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |at some time between neenuh fiftehn (650)857-7572 |and nahyn twenty-fahyv). | Kevin Wald http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > I have become Marius. Instead of taking in paragraphs and pages when > I read, I'm looking phrases and sentences and wondering if they are [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > been visibly pregnant" would seem better. "Despite" seems > contradictory to the image. Despite the opinions of all my learned colleagues, I find the author's phraseology entirely natural and clear. athel [ ... ] > obAue: I always say and write "the Ukraine". Do others usually use > the definite article? Seems odd to do when, in the country in > question, definite articles are seldom used. Until recently I always included the article. But since the country started being more in the news in the past few years I've found myself following the general trend and dropping it. Other countries have taken the same route: few people (at least in BrE) still talk about the Lebanon, the Gambia or the Argentine. athel > I'm currently reading "A Short History of Tractors In Ukrainian" by > Marina Lewycka. Despite the title, it's a novel. > The book, a paperback, has an interesting history. I don't know where > it was first sold as new, but it was rubber-stamped by a used-book [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the definite article? Seems odd to do when, in the country in > question, definite articles are seldom used. I still use "the" too. I'm trying to unlearn it without much success. I also have a copy of the book which was also given to me by my brother. There must be some secret fraternity. SignatureRob Bannister |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.