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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007tense lag?
Hi. Recently on one of the topics here, a couple of native speakers said that 'However old she was,she won the race' was okay. My notion however is that when you use 'however' ,the 'however' clause needs to be a step behind in tense from the succeeding clause. Thus you would say: 1)However old she is,she will win the race. 2)However old she might be,she is winning the race. 3)However old she might have been,she won the race. 'However old she was,she won the race' has both clauses in the same tense which seems a bit odd to me.But perhaps this means something slightly different from the form I prescribe(3 above). In your replies,I'd appreciate it if you were as detailed and diffuse as necessary but avoided getting too technical. Thanks in advance. > Hi. Recently on one of the topics here, a couple of native speakers > said [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > In your replies,I'd appreciate it if you were as detailed and diffuse > as necessary but avoided getting too technical. Let's get technical. There are only two tenses in English: past and present. What's different between "However old she was, she won the race" and "However old she might have been, she won the race" is aspect: perfective ("have been") versus simple ("won"). The modal "might" carries the past tense just as the main verb "won" does. BrE might prefer the perfective aspect, but AmE prefers the simple aspect. I see no difference in meaning between them, only a difference in style and aspect.  SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "If you are still not convinced of the a.s-brain connection, finish this sentence: 'It is easier to think after I … (a) get a haircut (b) take a dump'." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 12 Jan 2007; http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/ teranews now charges a one-time US$3.95 setup fee -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Hi. First of all,let me change the sentences that I presented as the paradigm I follow to the following 1)However old she may be,she will win the race. 2)However old she might be,she wins the race. 3)However old she may have been,she won the race. 4)However old she might have been,she had won the race. There is no need for the present continous in 2 as in the O.P.. Also I think that when you use 'however', the verb part of the clause must contain may. I don't think I ever say 'however it is' but only 'however it may be'. I'd like for members to comment on that as well.I also agree that 'tense lag' is not an appropriate but only approximte description for the forms I propose. Secondly I thought there was a whole crapload of tenses like past(did),present(do,does),future(will do,shall do),past continuous(was doing),past perfect(had done),present perfect(have done),present continuous(am doing),future perfect(will have done,shall have done),future continuous(will be doing,shall be doing) and perhaps others as well.But perhaps the modern view is to say that there are only three simple tenses,past present and future and that compound tenses such as the ones I mention are formed by variations of aspect etc. Anyway,what you are saying is that in AmE at least the following are admissible: However old she may be,she wins. or without the may: However old she is,she wins. Also forms like 'However old she was,she won' in all of which there is no 'tense lag' (with the appropriate hedge on the meaning of 'tense lag') and in some of which my stipulation that the verb in a 'however' clause must contain 'may' somewhere is ignored. Right? Also,if you have any further comments,and indeed if any of the other members do,I'd like to hear them. > Hi. First of all,let me change the sentences that I presented as > the paradigm I follow to the following [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > clause must contain may. I don't think I ever say 'however it is' > but only 'however it may be'. That is quite different from "however old she {is/may be/might be}", however. In AmE, "however old she is, {she's winning/she will win/she won} the race" are all perfectly normal and acceptable standard English. > I'd like for members to comment on > that as well.I also agree that 'tense lag' is not an appropriate > but only approximte description for the forms I propose. > Secondly I thought there was a whole crapload of tenses like > past(did),present(do,does),future(will do,shall do),past > continuous(was doing),past perfect(had done),present perfect(have > done),present continuous(am doing),future perfect(will have > done,shall have done),future continuous(will be doing,shall be > doing) and perhaps others as well. It all depends on how one looks at tenses. Morphologically there are only two tenses: present and past. There is no future tense in English, only structures and words (will/shall) that express the idea of future time. "I go to New York tomorrow" is a statement about the future in the simple present tense. It means exactly the same thing as "I will go to New York tomorrow" and "I'm going to New York tomorrow". Generally, however, school children and ESL/EFL students learn that there is a raft of tenses simply because English teachers and English students seem to find it easier to teach and learn aspects (progressive, perfect) if all the verbal structures in English are called "tenses" rather than "aspects". Linguists are more wont to say that there are only two tenses; almost all others usually say that there are many tenses. It's technical distinction, as I mentioned in my post. > But perhaps the modern view is > to say that there are only three simple tenses, Only two. > past present and future There is no future tense in English. > and that compound tenses such as the ones I mention are > formed by variations of aspect etc. Only linguists will argue that, though. > Anyway,what you are saying is that in AmE at least the following > are admissible: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in a 'however' clause must contain 'may' somewhere is ignored. > Right? Right. BrE speakers are more likely to use present perfect and past perfect than AmE speakers. > Also,if you have any further comments,and indeed if any of the > other members do,I'd like to hear them. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "'I don't think you want to fight me', said the cocky new 1-dan black-belt in karate. 'You're right', I said. 'I'm a killer, not a fighter'. And then I shot him dead between the eyes." Anonymous hit- man. teranews now charges a one-time US$3.95 setup fee -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com The cybercypher entity posted thusly: >> Secondly I thought there was a whole crapload of tenses like >> past(did),present(do,does),future(will do,shall do),past [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >as "I will go to New York tomorrow" and "I'm going to New York >tomorrow". Hey, that's a fascinating view of tenses. I never looked at them that way, but I think you are right. Makes me glad you escaped from my filter. Thanks. > The cybercypher entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Makes me glad you escaped from my filter. Purely unintentional that I outflanked everybody's killfiles: my ISP stopped providing the news groups and Google was essentially down for three days, so I had to find a new way to access AUE, and that was TeranewsFree. > Thanks. Any time. When I'm not being outrageous and obnoxious, I sometimes make worthwhile contributions. It al depends on the questions asked. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "It has come to my attention that my opinions are not universally shared." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 23 Jan 2007; http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/ teranews charges a one-time US$3.95 setup fee -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com The cybercypher entity posted thusly: >> The cybercypher entity posted thusly: >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >Any time. When I'm not being outrageous and obnoxious, I sometimes >make worthwhile contributions. It al depends on the questions asked. I know. You went into my filter for obnoxious and gratuitously insulting behaviour. When you escaped, I watched you carefully for a while. Keep up the good work. |
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