The Meddling of the English plurality on Meaning
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Xah Lee - 25 Jan 2007 18:11 GMT The Meddling of the English plurality on Meaning
Today, while working on my website ( http://xahlee.org/sl/build.html ), i had to write:
[image] = Rezzing disabled. (rezz means creating objects out of non-existence, in the context of virtual world. It originates from the word de-rezz in the movie Tron↗ (about a video-game virtual world), to mean death of the video game character. (which is is manifested as sudden disappearance of the sprite↗.) )
Originally, i was just going to write:
[image] = No creating objects.
Here's the English problem. In the above, the sentence “No creating objects.” — due to the English grammar's singularity/plurality thing, is ambiguous, because by the plural form of the word “object”, it might be interpreted to mean that creating a single object is OK!
This is a example of my finding serious logical and efficiency problems in English from the aspect of what is possible. I felt that i should write it down more often whenever i came up such issues in my writing process. (and post here for discussion too on occasion) So that, in the long run, i will have collected MY OWN thoughts on all the problems of English, in the context of 21st-century linguistics in our era of info age.
(the literature on English being a wildly imperfect human communication tool is not lacking among the linguistic community, but grammarians and writers have no idea.)
For another episode of my complaint on the issue of plurality, please see: http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/bangu/plurality.html
PS the traditional resolution to the “No creating objects” is of course “No creating object(s)”, or rephrase, or even the phrase as it is is understood by CONVENTION. Countless writing guides and books diddle and verbalize on issues like this. Now you see the complexity.
Xah xah@xahlee.org ∑ http://xahlee.org/
contrex - 25 Jan 2007 18:24 GMT > Originally, i was just going to write: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "object", it might be interpreted to mean that creating a single > object is OK! Only by a pedant, or someone whose first language was not English, or someone who was being deliberately awkward, or a barrack-room lawyer. The plural implies the singular. A notice saying "No riding of bicycles on the beach" is not rendered invalid because one cannot ride more than one bicycle at a time.
If it bothers you, change it to "object creation not allowed".
Mike Lyle - 25 Jan 2007 22:14 GMT >> Originally, i was just going to write: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > If it bothers you, change it to "object creation not allowed". I think Xah should just relax, or just quit gracefully. I hope nobody ever told him advanced English was going to be easy: if he's been reading AUE, he should know that no expert speaker thinks the language is free of complexity or anomaly. As you suggest, the fault here is not a weakness in the English language but his unwillingness to consider alternatives.
 Signature Mike.
-- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Alan Hope - 25 Jan 2007 23:20 GMT Xah Lee goes:
>Now you see the complexity. There is no complexity. A plural noun in the imperative -- and particularly in the negative imperative -- is taken to include its singular.
"No dogs" means no dog or dogs. "No children" means no child or children.
"Children half price" means a child or some children half price. That's also an imperative, though it may not look like one.
 Signature AH http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com
R H Draney - 25 Jan 2007 23:48 GMT Alan Hope filted:
>Xah Lee goes: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >"Children half price" means a child or some children half price. >That's also an imperative, though it may not look like one. On the other hand, "no shoes, no shirt, no service" could well be interpreted in a way that permits you to be served if you show up in one shoe and a crop top....r
 Signature "You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Alan Hope - 26 Jan 2007 00:38 GMT R H Draney goes:
>Alan Hope filted: >>Xah Lee goes:
>>>Now you see the complexity.
>>There is no complexity. A plural noun in the imperative -- and >>particularly in the negative imperative -- is taken to include its >>singular.
>>"No dogs" means no dog or dogs. "No children" means no child or >>children.
>>"Children half price" means a child or some children half price. >>That's also an imperative, though it may not look like one.
>On the other hand, "no shoes, no shirt, no service" could well be interpreted in >a way that permits you to be served if you show up in one shoe and a crop >top....r But that's not an imperative, it's a conditional.
 Signature AH http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com
CDB - 26 Jan 2007 14:10 GMT > R H Draney goes: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > But that's not an imperative, it's a conditional. It strikes me that "children half price" is a conditional too, then. If you belong to the designated group (children, the underdressed), you get the prescribed treatment. Even "no dogs/children" is an imperative only because the sign is presumably addressed to the custodians, not the members, of the designated group. If dogs could read, it would be a conditional too: if you are a dog, you don't get in.
"Rats away,"* or "Dog, don't let the sun set on you in this park," now, *that's* an imperative.
* http://preview.tinyurl.com/3bwr25 . Sorry about the little boxes, but it's still pretty legible. They're all thorns, AFAICS, except for yoghs in "ny_t" and "sy_t".
Alan Hope - 26 Jan 2007 15:34 GMT CDB goes:
>> R H Draney goes: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >It strikes me that "children half price" is a conditional too, then. Suit yourself.
 Signature AH http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com
Echosyn - 26 Jan 2007 00:24 GMT > Xah Lee goes: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > AH > http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com An excellent expression of the mechanics of language does not necessarily qualify one to render the same feat with the Qabala of the Sepher Yetzirah. Who am I to be declaring this? I am a twig grafted into the Tree of Israel.
The writers' handbooks are the paving stones of the writer's path, but the goal is the journey toward what lies just above and beyond the horizon.
-Echosyn
Alan Hope - 26 Jan 2007 00:39 GMT Echosyn goes:
>> Xah Lee goes:
>> >Now you see the complexity.
>> There is no complexity. A plural noun in the imperative -- and >> particularly in the negative imperative -- is taken to include its >> singular.
>> "No dogs" means no dog or dogs. "No children" means no child or >> children.
>> "Children half price" means a child or some children half price. >> That's also an imperative, though it may not look like one.
>An excellent expression of the mechanics of language does not >necessarily qualify one to render the same feat with the Qabala of the >Sepher Yetzirah. Who am >I to be declaring this? I am a wibbling nutflake.
 Signature AH http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com
Robert Lieblich - 26 Jan 2007 02:34 GMT [ ... ]
> The writers' handbooks are the paving stones of the writer's path, but > the goal is the journey toward what lies just above and beyond the > horizon. Lovely sentiment, but how can something lie both above and beyond the horizon?
 Signature Bob Lieblich (AUE) EMWTK
Eric Schwartz - 26 Jan 2007 02:39 GMT > > The writers' handbooks are the paving stones of the writer's path, but > > the goal is the journey toward what lies just above and beyond the > > horizon. > > Lovely sentiment, but how can something lie both above and beyond the > horizon? A true politician can lie anywhere.
-=Eric
Mike Lyle - 26 Jan 2007 13:21 GMT > > > The writers' handbooks are the paving stones of the writer's path, but > > > the goal is the journey toward what lies just above and beyond the > > > horizon. > > > Lovely sentiment, but how can something lie both above and beyond the > > horizon?A true politician can lie anywhere. And let's be fair: it's a much higher class of vapidity than we get from, say, the Penses de la Jeune Fille la Maille.
 Signature Mike.
Mike Lyle - 26 Jan 2007 15:38 GMT On Jan 26, 2:39am, Eric Schwartz <emsch...@pobox.com> wrote:
> Robert Lieblich <r_s_liebl...@yahoo.com> writes: > > Echosyn wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > And let's be fair: it's a much higher class of vapidity than we get > from, say, the Penses de la Jeune Fille la Maille. Aha! Another weakness of GG, I think (I'm pretty sure I was using that rather than Teranews at the time). That started life with "e-acute e" and "a-grave" in there. I also had to add some > things.
 Signature Mike.
-- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Lars Enderin - 26 Jan 2007 15:50 GMT ..
>> And let's be fair: it's a much higher class of vapidity than we get >> from, say, the Penses de la Jeune Fille la Maille. > > Aha! Another weakness of GG, I think (I'm pretty sure I was using that > rather than Teranews at the time). That started life with "e-acute e" > and "a-grave" in there. I also had to add some > things. Your previous message had an utf-8 header, and was encoded as quouted-printable, but the actual characters seem to be latin 1 (iso-8859-1): ... And let's be fair: it's a much higher class of vapidity than we get from, say, the Pens=E9es de la Jeune Fille =E0 la Maille.
--=20 Mike.
Echosyn - 27 Jan 2007 01:26 GMT > > > The writers' handbooks are the paving stones of the writer's path, but > > > the goal is the journey toward what lies just above and beyond the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -=Eric There is no place for politics in the truth and beauty of creation. Isaac Newton and R. Buckminster Fuller, to name just two of dozens, stood on the shoulders of giants before them and deduced from what was seen on the horizon those things that were beyond: Apprentice - Journeyman - Guildsman - Artisan. Sit - crawl - walk - fly.
-Echosyn
Alan Hope - 27 Jan 2007 09:06 GMT Echosyn goes:
>Apprentice - Journeyman - Guildsman - Artisan. >Sit - crawl - walk - fly. Worst. Haiku. Ever.
 Signature AH http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com
Mike M - 26 Jan 2007 16:52 GMT > "No dogs" means no dog or dogs. " Whenever I see the sign "Dogs must be carried" in front of escalators, I always feel that I can't use them, as I don't have a dog to carry.
Mike M
the Omrud - 26 Jan 2007 18:16 GMT mikmooney@googlemail.com had it:
> > "No dogs" means no dog or dogs. " > > Whenever I see the sign "Dogs must be carried" in front of escalators, > I always feel that I can't use them, as I don't have a dog to carry. That sign can't be very common around here - I am always looking for a spare child to carry on escalators.
 Signature David =====
R H Draney - 26 Jan 2007 22:15 GMT Mike M filted:
>> "No dogs" means no dog or dogs. " > >Whenever I see the sign "Dogs must be carried" in front of escalators, >I always feel that I can't use them, as I don't have a dog to carry. I hate using the men's room in a public place because of that sign that says "Employees must wash hands"...there I stand, my hands badly in need of washing, and not an employee in sight to take care of it for me....r
 Signature "You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Mark Brader - 27 Jan 2007 05:08 GMT Mike M.:
> Whenever I see the sign "Dogs must be carried" in front of escalators, > I always feel that I can't use them, as I don't have a dog to carry. One dog wouldn't be enough anyway.
 Signature Mark Brader | "Strong typing isn't for weak minds; the argument Toronto | 'strong typing is for weak minds' is for weak minds." msb@vex.net | -- Guy Harris
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