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The Meddling of the English plurality on Meaning

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Xah Lee - 25 Jan 2007 18:11 GMT
The Meddling of the English plurality on Meaning

Today, while working on my website
( http://xahlee.org/sl/build.html ),
i had to write:

[image] = Rezzing disabled. (rezz means creating objects out of
non-existence, in the context of virtual world. It originates from the
word de-rezz in the movie Tron↗ (about a video-game virtual world),
to mean death of the video game character. (which is is manifested as
sudden disappearance of the sprite↗.) )

Originally, i was just going to write:

[image] = No creating objects.

Here's the English problem. In the above, the sentence “No creating
objects.” — due to the English grammar's singularity/plurality
thing, is ambiguous, because by the plural form of the word
“object”, it might be interpreted to mean that creating a single
object is OK!

This is a example of my finding serious logical and efficiency problems
in English from the aspect of what is possible. I felt that i should
write it down more often whenever i came up such issues in my writing
process. (and post here for discussion too on occasion) So that, in the
long run, i will have collected MY OWN thoughts on all the problems of
English, in the context of 21st-century linguistics in our era of info
age.

(the literature on English being a wildly imperfect human communication
tool is not lacking among the linguistic community, but grammarians and
writers have no idea.)

For another episode of my complaint on the issue of plurality, please
see:
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/bangu/plurality.html

PS the traditional resolution to the “No creating objects” is of
course “No creating object(s)”, or rephrase, or even the phrase as
it is is understood by CONVENTION. Countless writing guides and books
diddle and verbalize on issues like this. Now you see the complexity.

 Xah
 xah@xahlee.org
http://xahlee.org/
contrex - 25 Jan 2007 18:24 GMT
> Originally, i was just going to write:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> "object", it might be interpreted to mean that creating a single
> object is OK!

Only by a pedant, or someone whose first language was not English, or
someone who was being deliberately awkward, or a barrack-room lawyer.
The plural implies the singular. A notice saying "No riding of bicycles
on the beach" is not rendered invalid because one cannot ride more than
one bicycle at a time.

If it bothers you, change it to "object creation not allowed".
Mike Lyle - 25 Jan 2007 22:14 GMT
>> Originally, i was just going to write:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> If it bothers you, change it to "object creation not allowed".

I think Xah should just relax, or just quit gracefully. I hope nobody
ever told him advanced English was going to be easy: if he's been
reading AUE, he should know that no expert speaker thinks the language
is free of complexity or anomaly. As you suggest, the fault here is not
a weakness in the English language but his unwillingness to consider
alternatives.

Signature

Mike.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Alan Hope - 25 Jan 2007 23:20 GMT
Xah Lee goes:

>Now you see the complexity.

There is no complexity. A plural noun in the imperative -- and
particularly in the negative imperative -- is taken to include its
singular.

"No dogs" means no dog or dogs. "No children" means no child or
children.

"Children half price" means a child or some children half price.
That's also an imperative, though it may not look like one.

Signature

AH
http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com

R H Draney - 25 Jan 2007 23:48 GMT
Alan Hope filted:

>Xah Lee goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>"Children half price" means a child or some children half price.
>That's also an imperative, though it may not look like one.

On the other hand, "no shoes, no shirt, no service" could well be interpreted in
a way that permits you to be served if you show up in one shoe and a crop
top....r

Signature

"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Alan Hope - 26 Jan 2007 00:38 GMT
R H Draney goes:

>Alan Hope filted:
>>Xah Lee goes:

>>>Now you see the complexity.

>>There is no complexity. A plural noun in the imperative -- and
>>particularly in the negative imperative -- is taken to include its
>>singular.

>>"No dogs" means no dog or dogs. "No children" means no child or
>>children.

>>"Children half price" means a child or some children half price.
>>That's also an imperative, though it may not look like one.

>On the other hand, "no shoes, no shirt, no service" could well be interpreted in
>a way that permits you to be served if you show up in one shoe and a crop
>top....r

But that's not an imperative, it's a conditional.

Signature

AH
http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com

CDB - 26 Jan 2007 14:10 GMT
> R H Draney goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> But that's not an imperative, it's a conditional.

It strikes me that "children half price" is a conditional too, then.
If you belong to the designated group (children, the underdressed),
you get the prescribed treatment.  Even "no dogs/children" is an
imperative only because the sign is presumably addressed to the
custodians, not the members, of the designated group.  If dogs could
read, it would be a conditional too: if you are a dog, you don't get
in.

"Rats away,"* or "Dog, don't let the sun set on you in this park,"
now, *that's* an imperative.

* http://preview.tinyurl.com/3bwr25 .  Sorry about the little boxes,
but it's still pretty legible.  They're all thorns, AFAICS, except for
yoghs in "ny_t" and "sy_t".
Alan Hope - 26 Jan 2007 15:34 GMT
CDB goes:

>> R H Draney goes:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>It strikes me that "children half price" is a conditional too, then.

Suit yourself.

Signature

AH
http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com

Echosyn - 26 Jan 2007 00:24 GMT
> Xah Lee goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> AH
> http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com

An excellent expression of the mechanics of language does not
necessarily qualify one to render the same feat with the Qabala of the
Sepher Yetzirah. Who am
I to be declaring this?  I am a twig grafted into the Tree of Israel.

The writers' handbooks are the paving stones of the writer's path, but
the goal is the journey toward what lies just above and beyond the
horizon.

-Echosyn
Alan Hope - 26 Jan 2007 00:39 GMT
Echosyn goes:

>> Xah Lee goes:

>> >Now you see the complexity.

>> There is no complexity. A plural noun in the imperative -- and
>> particularly in the negative imperative -- is taken to include its
>> singular.

>> "No dogs" means no dog or dogs. "No children" means no child or
>> children.

>> "Children half price" means a child or some children half price.
>> That's also an imperative, though it may not look like one.

>An excellent expression of the mechanics of language does not
>necessarily qualify one to render the same feat with the Qabala of the
>Sepher Yetzirah. Who am
>I to be declaring this?  I am a

wibbling nutflake.

Signature

AH
http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com

Robert Lieblich - 26 Jan 2007 02:34 GMT
[ ... ]

> The writers' handbooks are the paving stones of the writer's path, but
> the goal is the journey toward what lies just above and beyond the
> horizon.

Lovely sentiment, but how can something lie both above and beyond the
horizon?

Signature

Bob Lieblich (AUE)
EMWTK

Eric Schwartz - 26 Jan 2007 02:39 GMT
> > The writers' handbooks are the paving stones of the writer's path, but
> > the goal is the journey toward what lies just above and beyond the
> > horizon.
>
> Lovely sentiment, but how can something lie both above and beyond the
> horizon?

A true politician can lie anywhere.

-=Eric
Mike Lyle - 26 Jan 2007 13:21 GMT
> > > The writers' handbooks are the paving stones of the writer's path, but
> > > the goal is the journey toward what lies just above and beyond the
> > > horizon.
>
> > Lovely sentiment, but how can something lie both above and beyond the
> > horizon?A true politician can lie anywhere.

And let's be fair: it's a much higher class of vapidity than we get
from, say, the Penses de la Jeune Fille  la Maille.

Signature

Mike.

Mike Lyle - 26 Jan 2007 15:38 GMT
On Jan 26, 2:39am, Eric Schwartz <emsch...@pobox.com> wrote:
> Robert Lieblich <r_s_liebl...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > Echosyn wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> And let's be fair: it's a much higher class of vapidity than we get
> from, say, the Penses de la Jeune Fille   la Maille.

Aha! Another weakness of GG, I think (I'm pretty sure I was using that
rather than Teranews at the time). That started life with "e-acute e"
and "a-grave" in there. I also had to add some > things.

Signature

Mike.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Lars Enderin - 26 Jan 2007 15:50 GMT
..
>> And let's be fair: it's a much higher class of vapidity than we get
>> from, say, the Penses de la Jeune Fille   la Maille.
>
> Aha! Another weakness of GG, I think (I'm pretty sure I was using that
> rather than Teranews at the time). That started life with "e-acute e"
> and "a-grave" in there. I also had to add some > things.

Your previous message had an utf-8 header, and was encoded as
quouted-printable, but the actual characters seem to be latin 1
(iso-8859-1):
...
And let's be fair: it's a much higher class of vapidity than we get
from, say, the Pens=E9es de la Jeune Fille =E0 la Maille.

--=20
Mike.
Echosyn - 27 Jan 2007 01:26 GMT
> > > The writers' handbooks are the paving stones of the writer's path, but
> > > the goal is the journey toward what lies just above and beyond the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> -=Eric

There is no place for politics in the truth and beauty of creation.
Isaac Newton and R. Buckminster Fuller, to name just two of dozens,
stood on the shoulders of giants before them and deduced from what was
seen on the horizon those things that were beyond:
Apprentice - Journeyman - Guildsman - Artisan.
Sit - crawl - walk - fly.

-Echosyn
Alan Hope - 27 Jan 2007 09:06 GMT
Echosyn goes:

>Apprentice - Journeyman - Guildsman - Artisan.
>Sit - crawl - walk - fly.

Worst. Haiku. Ever.

Signature

AH
http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com

Mike M - 26 Jan 2007 16:52 GMT
> "No dogs" means no dog or dogs. "

Whenever I see the sign "Dogs must be carried" in front of escalators,
I always feel that I can't use them, as I don't have a dog to carry.

Mike M
the Omrud - 26 Jan 2007 18:16 GMT
mikmooney@googlemail.com had it:

> > "No dogs" means no dog or dogs. "
>
> Whenever I see the sign "Dogs must be carried" in front of escalators,
> I always feel that I can't use them, as I don't have a dog to carry.

That sign can't be very common around here - I am always looking for
a spare child to carry on escalators.

Signature

David
=====

R H Draney - 26 Jan 2007 22:15 GMT
Mike M filted:

>> "No dogs" means no dog or dogs. "
>
>Whenever I see the sign "Dogs must be carried" in front of escalators,
>I always feel that I can't use them, as I don't have a dog to carry.

I hate using the men's room in a public place because of that sign that says
"Employees must wash hands"...there I stand, my hands badly in need of washing,
and not an employee in sight to take care of it for me....r

Signature

"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Mark Brader - 27 Jan 2007 05:08 GMT
Mike M.:
> Whenever I see the sign "Dogs must be carried" in front of escalators,
> I always feel that I can't use them, as I don't have a dog to carry.

One dog wouldn't be enough anyway.
Signature

Mark Brader   |   "Strong typing isn't for weak minds; the argument
Toronto       |   'strong typing is for weak minds' is for weak minds."
msb@vex.net   |                                         -- Guy Harris

 
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