Hello:
I am trying to confirm some observations on sentences embedding "as
though/if" constructions.
Google stats indicate that "as though she had" may be followed
by "she was," but not by "she were" in the same sentence. Thus in the
two examples here, the WAS couldn't be exchanged with the subjunctive
"were":
-----
Lauren lifted their intertwined fingers, looking at them as though she
had forgotten she WAS holding Devlyn's hand.
http://www.academyofbards.org/fanfic/a/advocate_tn_madampresident.html
-----
As LG left the room, I spoke to him as though she had said she WAS
taking the car out to 7-11 to get a pack of cigarettes.
http://uhohnowlook.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_uhohnowlook_archive.html
-----
At Google the corresponding hits are:
413 for "as though she had * she was"
2 for "as though she had * she were"
(* being a Google wildcard)
Would this be a case of avoiding the double doubt/hypothetical thought?
I mean, the reasoning along these lines would be that when having a
first doubt caused by "as though/if she had," using the subjunctive
"were" in the 2nd part of the sentence, instead of "was," could be
seen as an overkill in terms of creating the hypothetical/doubtful
environment/mindset.
Do you find this a possible explanation?
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
jinhyun - 26 Jan 2007 05:30 GMT
> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Do you find this a possible explanation?
Hi. The clause modified by 'as though' is, of course, in the
subjunctive.
In the case of 'As LG left the room, I spoke to him as though she had
said she WAS
> taking the car out to 7-11 to get a pack of cigarettes.' 'she had said' is in the subjunctive(hence 'had said' instead of 'said') But there is no obligation, and indeed deprecated in Fowler, to extend the subjunctive mood to what she had said. The tense and mood sequence rule had better be relaxed here. In general,the subjunctive were better used as sparingly as possible since it is pretentious and heavy. This at least is what Fowler thought. And I am disposed to agree
subjunctive mood to what she had said
Marius Hancu - 26 Jan 2007 14:35 GMT
>But there is no obligation, and indeed deprecated in Fowler, to extend the >subjunctive mood to what she had said.
Interesting. Could you indicate where exactly he mentions that? Is is
in:
The King's English
?
http://www.bartleby.com/116/index.html
If so, in which section?
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
jinhyun - 27 Jan 2007 04:54 GMT
Hi Marius. No, it is in a book entitled: A Dictionary of Modern English
Usage.
It is in the section about subjunctives, starting from the bottom of
page 576 and filling the first column of page 577.
I cannot do better than to quote from it. So here it is:
To those who have had to do with Latin & Greek grammar,there will to e
familiar sund in Sequence of Tenses and Sequence of moods; what is
implied in the terms is that it may be necessary to use a tense or mood
nt to convey the meaning peculiar to it as such but for the sake of
harmony with another verb on which it depends. The principle has its
place, though little isheard of it, in English grammar; it is mentioned
here, because the most likely explanation of the subjunctives now to be
quoted, some clearly wrong, someat best uncalled-for, seems to be a
hazy memory of seqence of moods; after each example the supposed
reasoning is mentioned, not as sound, but as concievable.
1)Why should ordinary shop assistants enjoy a half-holiday as is
proposed in Sir William Bull's Bill, while the staff working behind the
scenes, often working underground, be denied this privilege?
(Fowler's note:'Why should assistants be denied' is in the subjunctive
which isextended to the subordinate clause making it 'why should the
behind-the-scenes staff BE denied, instead of IS denied)
(My note:Fowler seems to think 'IS denied' is better)
(Some other examples which I omit since they have less bearing on this
topic)
2)And if exceptional action were needed to prove love, What would be
proved except that love were not the rule.
('Exceptional action were needed' and 'what would be proved' are in the
subjunctive what there is no need for it tofilter down to 'love is not
the rule'. So it should be 'love is not the rule' and not 'love were
not the rule)
(And some more examples,either along the lines of the above two or a
little irrelevant to the present discussion)
Marius Hancu - 27 Jan 2007 19:51 GMT
Thank you for your effort to post the quote from Fowler.
Marius Hancu
Marius Hancu - 27 Jan 2007 20:00 GMT
> 2)And if exceptional action were needed to prove love, What would be
> proved except that love were not the rule.
> ('Exceptional action were needed' and 'what would be proved' are in the
> subjunctive what there is no need for it to filter down to 'love is not
> the rule'. So it should be 'love is not the rule' and not 'love were
> not the rule)
Is the commentary in parantheses here yours or Fowler's?
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Donna Richoux - 26 Jan 2007 13:22 GMT
> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Would this be a case of avoiding the double doubt/hypothetical thought?
I guess so. What you are suggesting would apply the hypothetical nature
to the *wrong action*.
There is no doubt Lauren really was holding Devlyn's hand. It was the
forgetting that was imagined or unsure.
In the second example, in the imagined "as though" scenario, LG would
have said something like "I'm taking the car out to the 7-11," no doubt
about it, not "I might theoretically go to the 7-11," nor "If I were to
go to the 7-1l..." It was the saying of anything at all that was
imaginary and contrary to fact.
I suppose one could invent an imaginary conversation in which both
levels apply. Let me try. "She had forgotten whether she was invited to
the party. She had decided to behave as though she were."
Is that one? The "were" refers to "invited," of course, which is what is
in doubt.

Signature
Best -- Donna Richoux
Marius Hancu - 26 Jan 2007 14:38 GMT
> I suppose one could invent an imaginary conversation in which both
> levels apply. Let me try. "She had forgotten whether she was invited to
> the party. She had decided to behave as though she were."
Interesting.
Thank you, Donna.
Marius Hancu