BrE: He was wretched that she should have thought it such a ...

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Marius Hancu - 26 Jan 2007 05:19 GMT

Hello:

I think we're dealing with putative "shoulds" here, in
"wretched that she should have thought it ...," correct?

------
[Bernard feels attracted to Lenina, but suffers because of his
timidity and his "non-standard" appearance.]

Even Lenina was making him suffer. He remembered those weeks of timid
indecision, during which he had looked and longed and despaired of
ever having the courage to ask her. Dared he face the risk of being
humiliated by a contemptuous refusal? But if she were to say yes, what
rapture! Well, now she had said it and he was still wretched --
wretched that she should have thought it such a perfect afternoon for
Obstacle Golf, that she should have trotted away to join Henry Foster,
that she should have found him funny for not wanting to talk of their
most private affairs in public.

Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, p. 68
-----

My real question here is however related to their meaning, or a more
modern interpretation of them.

Would you say that:

"He was wretched that she should have thought it such a perfect
afternoon for Obstacle Golf."

may be better interpreted as:

"He was wretched that she had been capable/able to think it such a
perfect afternoon for Obstacle Golf."

than as:

"He was wretched that she had thought it such a perfect afternoon for
Obstacle Golf."

Any other (better) "translations?"

Thanks.
Marius Hancu

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contrex - 26 Jan 2007 15:30 GMT

> [Bernard feels attracted to Lenina, but suffers because of his
> timidity and his "non-standard" appearance.]

I know the feeling!

> "He was wretched that she had been capable/able to think it such a
> perfect afternoon for Obstacle Golf."

That would be either "capable of thinking" or "able to think". One is
capable + of + gerund - OR - able + to + infinitive.

> "He was wretched that she had thought it such a perfect afternoon for
> Obstacle Golf."

I don't know that I have enough information.

Is he upset because she preferred Obstacle Golf to something he wanted
her to do, or hoped that she would want to do, which she knew about? If
so, maybe the former.

Or is he just upset simply because he detests Obstacle Golf for some
reason? If so, the latter perhaps.

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Marius Hancu - 26 Jan 2007 21:48 GMT

> That would be either "capable of thinking" or "able to think". One is
> capable + of + gerund - OR - able + to + infinitive.

Thanks.
Marius Hancu

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CDB - 26 Jan 2007 16:20 GMT

> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> "He was wretched that she had been capable/able to think it such a
> perfect afternoon for Obstacle Golf."

I would write that "He was wretched that she could have thought...".

> than as:
>
> "He was wretched that she had thought it such a perfect afternoon
> for Obstacle Golf."

That seems closer to me.

> Any other (better) "translations?"

Not a better way of expressing it, but one that says more explicitly
what it means, for me, would be "The thought that she had thought it
such a perfect afternoon for OG made him wretched." Putative, as you
said.

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Marius Hancu - 26 Jan 2007 21:50 GMT

> Not a better way of expressing it, but one that says more explicitly
> what it means, for me, would be "The thought that she had thought it
> such a perfect afternoon for OG made him wretched." Putative, as you
> said.

OK, thank you.
Marius Hancu

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jinhyun - 27 Jan 2007 08:41 GMT

> > Not a better way of expressing it, but one that says more explicitly
> > what it means, for me, would be "The thought that she had thought it
> > such a perfect afternoon for OG made him wretched." Putative, as you
> > said.OK, thank you.
> Marius Hancu

Hi Marius. For me, "The thought that she had thought it such a perfect
afternoon for OG made him wretched." suggests that her thinking it was
a perfect afternoon for O.G is something that no longer actively
affects him; but it annoys him, even though it happened in the past.
"The thought that she should have thought it such a perfect afternoon
for OG made him wretched.", on the other hand, suggests that her so
thinking still affects him, the unsavoury results of that are still
current, and the worst of it is still to come. Even if the effects of
that decision were in in the past, you could still use this latter form
to conjure up the idea that the unsavoury effects of her decision are
still vivid and rankle actively almost as if the worst of it weren't
already past.

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Marius Hancu - 27 Jan 2007 19:48 GMT

Sorry, I do not find your answer here clear at all.

Marius Hancu

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Marius Hancu - 27 Jan 2007 20:12 GMT

Plainly speaking, I wonder if the author means:

"He was wretched that she had been capable/able to think it"

or:

"He was wretched that she had thought it"

Other than that, I pretty much understand what's all about.

Marius Hancu

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jinhyun - 28 Jan 2007 02:10 GMT

> Plainly speaking, I wonder if the author means:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Other than that, I pretty much understand what's all about.

Hi mate. No, I was merely pointing out that "He was wretched that she
had thought it", though closer in meaning to 'He was wretched she
should have thought it' than "He was wretched that she had been
capable/able to think it", isn't quite the same. "He was wretched that
she had thought it" is the sort of thing he would be after the horrid
golf date was over but he was still annoyed about it even though the
bad effects of it were past. "He was wretched that she should have
thought it" on the other hand suggests that the author is recording
the character's state of mind when the golf date with all its noisome
concomitants was still going on or lay in the (immediate) future. Of
course, you could also say "He was wretched that she should have
thought it" to record the character's state of mind after the golf
date was over to indicate that he was still keenly smarting from the
disparaging or otherwise wracking influence of that golf date almost
as badly as if it were still going on.In this case, the usage would be
a figure to indicate how keen and vivid the character's wretchedness
was.

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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007

BrE: He was wretched that she should have thought it such a ...