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Swallowing half an hour before closing time ...

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Marius Hancu - 26 Jan 2007 21:22 GMT
Hello:

I find the use of "Swallowing" right at the beginning of the enclosed
quotation a bit strange.

I'd have expected:

"Having being swallowed half an hour ..."
dose of soma"

or:

"Swallowed half an hour ... "

How do you feel about it?

--------
["Soma" is the perfect drug used in the novel]

Swallowing half an hour before closing time, that second dose of soma
had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the actual universe and
their minds. Bottled, they crossed the street; bottled, they took the
lift up to Henry's room on the twenty-eighth floor. And yet, bottled
as she was, and in spite of that second gramme of soma, Lenina did not
forget to take all the contraceptive precautions prescribed by the
regulations. Years of intensive hypnopædia and, from twelve to
seventeen, Malthusian drill three times a week had made the taking of
these precautions almost as automatic and inevitable as blinking.

Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, p. 79
--------

Thank you.
Marius Hancu
TakenEvent - 26 Jan 2007 21:54 GMT
> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, p. 79
> --------

"Having being swallowed" makes no sense to me.  I could see a case being
made for "having swallowed half an hour", which is probably what you
intended to write.  There does seem to be a certain inconsistency between
"swallowing" and "had raised".  I would expect the sentence to read
something like:

Having swallowed half an hour before closing time, that second dose of soma
had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the actual universe and their
minds.
Mike Lyle - 26 Jan 2007 22:11 GMT
> > Hello:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Having swallowed half an hour before closing time, that second dose of soma
> had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the actual universe and
their
> minds.

More like "Having  been swallowed" or, as Marius suggests, "Swallowed.
." "Having swallowed" doesn't work.

Signature

Mike.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Skitt - 26 Jan 2007 22:31 GMT
>>> I find the use of "Swallowing" right at the beginning of the
>>> enclosed quotation a bit strange.
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> More like "Having  been swallowed" or, as Marius suggests, "Swallowed.
> ." "Having swallowed" doesn't work.

It all depends on who or what is doing the swallowing.  Myself, I think what
was meant was that the second dose of soma swallowed the half an hour.  If
so, the original is written perfectly.
Signature

Skitt
Jes' fine

TakenEvent - 27 Jan 2007 07:40 GMT
> >>> I find the use of "Swallowing" right at the beginning of the
> >>> enclosed quotation a bit strange.
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> was meant was that the second dose of soma swallowed the half an hour.  If
> so, the original is written perfectly.

I read it the same way, that one of the effects of the drug was to make the
half hour seem to disappear, move quickly, or otherwise hold the user in an
oblivious daze for the duration.  Still, I don't see how "swallowing" works
with "had raised".
Skitt - 27 Jan 2007 18:07 GMT
>>>>> I find the use of "Swallowing" right at the beginning of the
>>>>> enclosed quotation a bit strange.
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> the user in an oblivious daze for the duration.  Still, I don't see
> how "swallowing" works with "had raised".

I don't see anything wrong with it.
   Crying, she had stopped paying attention.
Anything wrong with that?  Nothing that I know.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Donna Richoux - 27 Jan 2007 18:42 GMT
> >>>>> --------
> >>>>> ["Soma" is the perfect drug used in the novel]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Swallowing half an hour before closing time, that second dose of
> >>>>> soma had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the actual
> >>>>> universe and their minds.
[snip]

> >>>>> Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, p. 79
> >>>>> --------
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>     Crying, she had stopped paying attention.
> Anything wrong with that?  Nothing that I know.

Well, I'm sure you know the rule (although goodness knows it's often
broken these days) that the "-ing" part before the comma is supposed to
describe the person or thing directly after the comma. In your example,
"she" was "crying" so that's fine.

But in the original example, "that second dose of soma" wasn't
"swallowing" anything.

Unless (as some implied) it's figurative, the dose caused a chunk of
time to be swallowed or pass surprisingly quickly... The soma swallowed
half an hour?

Naw, I think it's just a simple mistake for "Swallowed". The people took
the pills half an hour before closing time and there were effects.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Skitt - 27 Jan 2007 19:08 GMT
>>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>> ["Soma" is the perfect drug used in the novel]
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> But in the original example, "that second dose of soma" wasn't
> "swallowing" anything.

See below.

> Unless (as some implied) it's figurative, the dose caused a chunk of
> time to be swallowed or pass surprisingly quickly... The soma
> swallowed half an hour?

Exactly.  I said that in the quoted text above.

> Naw, I think it's just a simple mistake for "Swallowed". The people
> took the pills half an hour before closing time and there were
> effects.

I don't believe that Huxley would make a mistake like that.

I repeat -- the sentence works perfectly as written.  I think some people
are trying to put a different meaning to it than the one that Huxley
intended.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

irwell - 27 Jan 2007 22:02 GMT
>>>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>> ["Soma" is the perfect drug used in the novel]
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>are trying to put a different meaning to it than the one that Huxley
>intended.

I agree.

Swallowing half an hour before opening time, the Viagra worked as
expected.
Skitt - 27 Jan 2007 23:36 GMT
>>>>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>>> ["Soma" is the perfect drug used in the novel]
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
> I agree.

OK, but

> Swallowing half an hour before opening time, the Viagra worked as
> expected.

is not a similar thing at all.  The Viagra does not do the swallowing.  No
siree, not at all.
Signature

Skitt
Like you say... a idea what unclips every blind
flask of unspired geraniums what ever I is had.
                            --Churchy La Femme

K. Edgcombe - 28 Jan 2007 17:45 GMT
>>>>>>>>>> Swallowing half an hour before closing time, that second dose
>>>>>>>>>> of soma had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the
>>>>>>>>>> actual universe and their minds.
>>> I repeat -- the sentence works perfectly as written.  I think some
>>> people are trying to put a different meaning to it than the one that
>>> Huxley intended.

When Skitt's right, he's right.

Katy
Donna Richoux - 28 Jan 2007 11:12 GMT
> > Naw, I think it's just a simple mistake for "Swallowed". The people
> > took the pills half an hour before closing time and there were
> > effects.
>
> I don't believe that Huxley would make a mistake like that.

Well, we all write the wrong word at times, but it could have been the
typist or printsetter. Do you remember the olden days, when the author
was given long galley-sheets to pore over, in hopes of catching such
errors?

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Skitt - 28 Jan 2007 18:43 GMT
>>> Naw, I think it's just a simple mistake for "Swallowed". The people
>>> took the pills half an hour before closing time and there were
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> was given long galley-sheets to pore over, in hopes of catching such
> errors?

Well, yes -- sh.t can happen, but that does not mean that it happened in
this case.  There's absolutely no reason to think that it did.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Donna Richoux - 28 Jan 2007 20:26 GMT
> >>> Naw, I think it's just a simple mistake for "Swallowed". The people
> >>> took the pills half an hour before closing time and there were
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Well, yes -- sh.t can happen, but that does not mean that it happened in
> this case.  There's absolutely no reason to think that it did.

Well, why, yes, there is. It is far more normal to speak of swallowing a
pill at a certain time than to speak of a pill swallowing time. (Cue
Grace Slick singing 'Go Ask Alice'). But maybe it fits the plot.

The only thing I can think of that would settle this is finding an
edition of the work where this word had been changed.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Marius Hancu - 28 Jan 2007 20:43 GMT
I would've easier understood something like this:

-------
_Disolving ITSELF (in their mouths, etc)_ half an hour before closing
time, that second dose of soma had raised a quite impenetrable wall
between the actual universe and their minds.
-------

Marius Hancu
Marius Hancu - 28 Jan 2007 20:45 GMT
Should have been:

diSSolving

Marius Hancu
the Omrud - 28 Jan 2007 22:52 GMT
Marius.Hancu@gmail.com had it:

> I would've easier understood something like this:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> between the actual universe and their minds.
> -------

I've been watching this with interest and I agree with Skitt and
others - the meaning is straightforward and I see no reason to
presume that the word is faulty.  But "swallowing" doesn't mean
taking into the mouth and through the gullet.  It means "using up" or
"occupying".  "swallow" is often used of a period of time.  "I'm
sorry I'm late but trying to find a parking space swallowed the best
part of an hour".

Something like:
Taking up the half hour before closing time, that second dose of soma
had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the actual universe and
their minds.

Signature

David
=====

Robert Lieblich - 29 Jan 2007 02:17 GMT
> Marius.Hancu@gmail.com had it:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the actual universe and
> their minds.

Okay, fine, but the choice of a word that so easily and frequently
leads the reader astray is still a mistake, and I consider Huxley to
have made one in this case.  I think this falls within Fowler's "false
scent" category.  It's yet another instance of misleading the reader
because the author knew what he meant and didn't see the alternative
reading.  Eventually the reader can untangle the mess and figure out
what the author intended, but readers aren't supposed to be put to
that task, particularly in popular fiction.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
I'm an authority on this sort of thing because I do it so often myself

Skitt - 29 Jan 2007 19:33 GMT
>> Marius.Hancu@gmail.com had it:

>>> I would've easier understood something like this:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> what the author intended, but readers aren't supposed to be put to
> that task, particularly in popular fiction.

Gosh, Bob -- I must be "special".  I got it in one, never even considering
some alternative to what was clearly written.  I have been puzzled all along
about what people are trying to read into the senrtence.

I must confess that I absorb what is written, and often, when there's a
mistake in the written words, I have some difficulty in imagining what might
have been meant.  It's a great help in nitpicking, but not so hot for quick
comprehension of the material.
Signature

Skitt
I may not understand what you say, but
I'll defend to your death my right to deny it.
                          --Albert Alligator

Robert Lieblich - 29 Jan 2007 22:50 GMT
[ ... ]

> > Okay, fine, but the choice of a word that so easily and frequently
> > leads the reader astray is still a mistake, and I consider Huxley to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Gosh, Bob -- I must be "special".

I'm not sure I'd volunteer for that designation, Alec.

> I got it in one, never even considering
> some alternative to what was clearly written.

Good thing I didn't say "invariably."

> I have been puzzled all along
> about what people are trying to read into the sentence.

It's just part of the psychology of the thing.  If you don't see the
primrose path the first time through, you probably won't ever see it
unless it's called to your attention.  This whole business of trying
to decode ambiguous texts and figure out what was really meant is a
major part of several fields of American law -- contracts, wills and
estates, and real estate among them.  Even honest lawyers can get into
disagreements over something that strikes them both as perfectly clear
but with different results.

Look at this thread.  Lots of people wandering about in a daze trying
to relate the swallowing of the soma to the remainder of the context.
Others realizing on first reading that what was swallowed was not a
pill but half an hour.  Still others eventually coming around to what
some realized on first reading.  That's Huxley's fault.  You can't put
"swallowing" in the same sentence with a medication and count on
people not to wander off-track.

> I must confess that I absorb what is written, and often, when there's a
> mistake in the written words, I have some difficulty in imagining what might
> have been meant.  It's a great help in nitpicking, but not so hot for quick
> comprehension of the material.

It's much the same here.  But of course different people glom onto
different meanings in different ways, so there are lots of individual
differences, as was the case here.

Apropos of nothing, I'm listening to some of the recordings of Jelly
Roll Morton (originals re-mastered for CD).  This side of a Mahler
symphony, there isn't much that's better.  They're available at
Berkshire Record Outlet, along with a whole bunch of other stuff (Fats
Waller, Stan Kenton, and on and on -- and plenty of classics, albeit
hit or miss), at remainder prices.  Click on
<http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/>.  The search method takes a
bit of getting used to, but it's worth it.  (I have no financial
interest in the company apart from all the dinero I've send them in
payment for CDs.)

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Clear as mud (if mud is clear)

Skitt - 29 Jan 2007 23:23 GMT
[...]
> Apropos of nothing, I'm listening to some of the recordings of Jelly
> Roll Morton (originals re-mastered for CD).  This side of a Mahler
> symphony, there isn't much that's better.  They're available at
> Berkshire Record Outlet, along with a whole bunch of other stuff (Fats
> Waller, Stan Kenton, and on and on -- and plenty of classics, albeit
> hit or miss), at remainder prices.  [...]

Ooh, Stan Kenton!  I saw him live when June Christy was his featured singer.
I do have a couple of Stan's albums.

I was actively pursuing jazz interests back then, in the early 'fifties, and
I had won a couple of tickets to Jazz a la Carte in SF by setting up an hour
of jazz for a San Jose radio station (KLOK -- Custer's Caravan program).
Signature

Skitt
Jes' fine!

Skitt - 29 Jan 2007 23:25 GMT

>> Gosh, Bob -- I must be "special".
>
> I'm not sure I'd volunteer for that designation, Alec.

Well, there's the scare quotes ...
Signature

Skitt
Ever ready to retract the aforesaid and aver the opposite.

Sara Lorimer - 29 Jan 2007 17:49 GMT
> Well, we all write the wrong word at times, but it could have been the
> typist or printsetter. Do you remember the olden days, when the author
> was given long galley-sheets to pore over, in hopes of catching such
> errors?

They still are. Well, "long," I don't know about, but I was given proofs
of both my books to check for mistakes, and I'm not exactly the most
feared and valuable writer on the block.

Signature

SML

LFS - 29 Jan 2007 17:56 GMT
>>Well, we all write the wrong word at times, but it could have been the
>>typist or printsetter. Do you remember the olden days, when the author
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> of both my books to check for mistakes, and I'm not exactly the most
> feared and valuable writer on the block.

I had proofs to check for mine, too, but it's quite easy to miss errors
in text that you have written yourself. What no longer seem to exist are
in-house copy-editors.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

R H Draney - 29 Jan 2007 18:09 GMT
LFS filted:

>I had proofs to check for mine, too, but it's quite easy to miss errors
>in text that you have written yourself. What no longer seem to exist are
>in-house copy-editors.

Another opportunity for our friends in Bangalore, I'd say...I eagerly anticipate
the first wave of results....r

Signature

"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Sara Lorimer - 29 Jan 2007 19:06 GMT
> I had proofs to check for mine, too, but it's quite easy to miss errors
> in text that you have written yourself. What no longer seem to exist are
> in-house copy-editors.

It's mostly freelancers now, I suspect -- I be one myself.

Signature

SML

Marius Hancu - 28 Jan 2007 01:39 GMT
> >>> Swallowing half an hour before closing time, that second dose of
> >>> soma had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the actual
> >>> universe and their minds.

> Myself, I think what
> was meant was that the second dose of soma swallowed the half an hour.  If
> so, the original is written perfectly.

If so, I think a "the" may be required in there:

--------
Swallowing THE half an hour before closing time, that second dose of
soma had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the actual
universe and their minds.
--------

However, I agree that in general Huxley has impeccable style.

Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Richard Maurer - 28 Jan 2007 03:24 GMT
Marius Hancu wrote:
   --------
   ["Soma" is the perfect drug used in the novel]

   Swallowing half an hour before closing time,
   that second dose of soma had raised a quite
   impenetrable wall between the actual universe
   and their minds. Bottled, they crossed the street;
   bottled, they took the lift up to Henry's room
   on the twenty-eighth floor. And yet, bottled as
   she was, and in spite of that second gramme of soma,
   Lenina did not forget to take all the contraceptive
   precautions prescribed by the regulations. Years of
   intensive hypnopædia and, from twelve to seventeen,
   Malthusian drill three times a week had made
   the taking of these precautions almost as automatic
   and inevitable as blinking.

   Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, p. 79
   --------

   It all depends on who or what is doing the swallowing.
   Myself, I think what was meant was that the second dose
   of soma swallowed the half an hour.  If so,
   the original is written perfectly.

An attempted parallel follows:

 Taking a full hour, the third act had heightened their fear
 of rain and strangers.  They huddled in the alcove,
 postponing the dash for the car.

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Marius Hancu - 28 Jan 2007 20:49 GMT
> An attempted parallel follows:
>
>   Taking a full hour, the third act had heightened their fear
>   of rain and strangers.  They huddled in the alcove,
>   postponing the dash for the car.

I've no difficulties with this one.

Marius Hancu
Skitt - 28 Jan 2007 22:07 GMT

>> An attempted parallel follows:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I've no difficulties with this one.

So, why do you have difficulties with the original?

  Swallowing half an hour before closing time, that second dose
  of soma had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the actual
  universe and their minds.

It has the same construction.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Marius Hancu - 29 Jan 2007 13:50 GMT
>So, why do you have difficulties with the original?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It has the same construction.

Is your reading of the above:

"That second dose is taking / consumes time in the amount of half an
hour before closing time?"

Then, perhaps I understand it as it is.

Marius Hancu
Skitt - 29 Jan 2007 19:39 GMT
>> So, why do you have difficulties with the original?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Then, perhaps I understand it as it is.

Yes, the second dose wiped out the the half an hour before closing time.
Messed up the takers' minds but good, creating an impenetrable wall between
the takers of that dose and reality.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Marius Hancu - 29 Jan 2007 20:11 GMT
>Yes, the second dose wiped out the the half an hour before closing time.
> Messed up the takers' minds but good, creating an impenetrable wall between
> the takers of that dose and reality.

OK, with this meaning of "swallowing" I've no problems.

Initially, I've only considered the non-figurative meaning of
"swallowing,"  as in "swallowing food."

Thank you very much.
Marius
Marius Hancu - 26 Jan 2007 23:31 GMT
On Jan 26, 5:11 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> More like "Having  been swallowed" or, as Marius suggests, "Swallowed.

Yes, I've just realized I made an error wrt my own intentions (!), what
I wanted to write was indeed:

"Having  _been_ swallowed..." (NOT "being)
or
"Being swallowed .."
or
"Swallowed ..."

Thanks.
Marius Hancu
TakenEvent - 27 Jan 2007 07:46 GMT
> > > Hello:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> More like "Having  been swallowed" or, as Marius suggests, "Swallowed.
> ." "Having swallowed" doesn't work.

"Swallowed" works if the sentence is indicating that drug is what is being
swallowed.  If the half hour is what's being swallowed (by the drug),
"having swallowed" works best.  Even if the intent of the sentence is to
indicate that the drug was swallowed thirty minutes before closing time, I
can't see how Huxley went from "swallowing" to "had raised".
John Dean - 27 Jan 2007 01:22 GMT
> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, p. 79
> --------

Here's a fanciful scenario.
In that chapter, Lenina takes a dose of soma at dinner:

"Soma was served with the coffee. Lenina took two half-gramme tablets and
Henry three."

Later they go out dancing. At some point Lenina has a second gramme of soma
"in spite of that second gramme of soma".
So maybe she swallowed half a dose (a dose being 2 grammes) and she did
this an hour before closing.
Signature

John Dean
Oxford

Marius Hancu - 27 Jan 2007 02:09 GMT
> > Swallowing half an hour before closing time, that second dose of soma
> > had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the actual universe and
> > their minds.

> Here's a fanciful scenario.
> In that chapter, Lenina takes a dose of soma at dinner:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>  So maybe she swallowed half a dose (a dose being 2 grammes) and she did
> this an hour before closing.

Sorry, I have a problem realising how this is related to using
"swallowING," but I may be missing something.

Marius Hancu
 
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