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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007trilby with a sock?
A curious reference for me in today's paper: "Trilby" first appeared in Harper's New Monthly Magazine, raising circulation by 100,000, and later inspired a play, a Warner Brothers film and the once renowned Trilby hat. http://www.nytimes.com/ 2007/01/27/arts/27vict.html It turns out that the only hat I have is a trilby - I discovered this by googling up an image: http://www.hatsandthat.com/otherfeatures_trilbyhats.htm Looking in OED2 I discovered that a sense of "trilby" meaning "foot" developed around 1900 but, per OED, may have become obsolete: [excerpt] Also Trilby. Pl. trilbies or trilbys. [The title of a novel by George du Maurier published in 1894, and the name of its heroine.] 1. colloq. a. A jocular name for the foot (with reference to Trilby's feet, which were objects of admiration). ? Obs. 1895 People 7 July, An American paper has spent its energy of psychological investigation on the foot (I beg pardon, the trilby). 1907 H. E. Dudeney Canterbury Puzzles 114 'Two feet-' he murmured. 'Somebody's Trilbys?' I inquired. 1932 U. Sinclair Candid Reminiscences i. v. 29 There was a book by the name of 'Trilby', which the ladies blushed to hear spoken of... I knew it had something to do with feet, because thereafter my father always called them 'trilbies'. [end excerpt] Has anyone heard the "foot" sense of "trilby?" Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > A curious reference for me in today's paper: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Has anyone heard the "foot" sense of "trilby?" No, but Bartleby shows there are several works called "Trilby." The one I knew of was the novel that contained the evil Svengali. That appears to be by George du Maurier, 1894, and it's the one mentioned in your NY Times article. The American Heritage Dictionary agrees about the hat: trilby A soft felt hat with a deeply creased crown. ETYMOLOGY: After the novel Trilby by George du Maurier (because such a hat was worn in the original London stage production based on the novel). Bartleby hits also include an earlier reference (red herring?): Nodier, Charles 1780-1844, French novelist and poet. ... His most noted works are the fantastic tales Trilby; ou, Le Lutin d'Argail (1822) and La Fée aux miettes (1832). 1 And a slightly later one: Trilby By Alice Brown (1857-1948) O LIVING image of eternal youth! Wrought with such large simplicity of truth That, now the pattern's made and on the shelf, Each vows he might have cut it for himself; Nor marvels that we sang of empty days, 5 Of rank-grown laurel and unprunëd bays, While yet, in all this lonely Crusoe land, The Trilby footprint had not touched the sand. [snip long remainder] That's a bit vague, but searching on <"alice brown" trilby> hits pay dirt. http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:2dYFAGjrZe4J:www.mauicroquetclub.or g/history/CheatingGenderRolesAndTheNineteenthCentruyCroquetCraze.pdf+%22 alice+brown%22+trilby&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&lr=lang_nl|lang_en&ie=UTF-8 George Du Maurier's Trilby, the heroine's animal innocence, beauty, and sexuality were all symbolized by the exquisite shape of her naked feet, which were the focus of whatever sexuality the novel's three Englishmen express. The book was an international best-seller, selling nearly 300,000 copies its first year of publication. Du Maurier's biographer noted of the resulting Trilby-mania, "The scene in the novel that was most thoroughly exploited for commercial purposes was the one in which Little Billee sketched Trilby's perfect foot on the wall of his apartment. I have no recollection of ever reading Svengali, oops, I mean Trilby, but I have read books in which the characters did. That's the same relationship I have with Uncle Tom's Cabin.  SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux [snip] > Bartleby hits also include an earlier reference (red herring?): > > Nodier, Charles 1780-1844, French novelist and poet. > ... His most noted works are the fantastic tales > Trilby; ou, Le Lutin d'Argail (1822) and La Fée aux > miettes (1832). 1 Not a red herring unless this bibliography referring to the 1822 book title (in 1851) is also false: http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx? c=moa;cc=moa;g=moagrp;xc=1;q1=trilby;rgn=full %20text;idno=AJD6870.0014.001;didno=AJD6870.0014.001;view=image;seq=000 00464 [snip] > The Trilby footprint had not touched the sand. > [snip long remainder] [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > g/history/CheatingGenderRolesAndTheNineteenthCentruyCroquetCraze.pdf+%22 > alice+brown%22+trilby&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&lr=lang_nl|lang_en&ie=UTF-8 [snip] When the link wouldn't work for me, I found Alice Brown's 1900 poem by Googling on the search terms you suggested -- thanks. That poem fed into the then current cachet for the word/name "Trilby". I'm thinking a proper etymology should include reference to the 1822 book title, even though that was in the French language. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > %20text;idno=AJD6870.0014.001;didno=AJD6870.0014.001;view=image;seq=000 > 00464 By "red herring?" I wasn't questioning the truth as to whether there was such a piece by Nodier. Bartleby has good reference works. I was questioning whether it was going to have any relevance to your question about trilby=feet. > I'm thinking > a proper etymology should include reference to the 1822 book title, > even though that was in the French language. An etymology of what? Trilby=feet? Only if you can show some connection between the du Maurier work and the Nodier work. We turn up these happenstance associations while we're exploring, but some of them are truly irrelevant. Of course, I suppose you could put it in the negative and note "No apparent connection to Nodier's 'Trilby, le lutin d'Argail.'" But then you'd have to read both Trilbies to make sure Du Maurier *didn't* make such a reference. And I don't think etymologies should be cluttered with "No connection to" this and that unless there's good reason, like strong misled popular belief. At this moment we don't know how widely Trilby might have been used in the past as a forename, surname, placename... I noticed it turned up in genealogical records when I was hunting for information. Turning now to the Oxford Dictionary of English Surnames, I see it's listed with a first date of 1254, and said to be probably from Thurlby, Lincolnshire. I don't have a good book on forenames. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux [Trilby: put a sock on it] > I'm thinking > a proper etymology should include reference to the 1822 book title, > even though that was in the French language. > An etymology of what? Trilby=feet? Only if you can show some > connection between the du Maurier work and the Nodier work. We turn > up these happenstance associations while we're exploring, but some > of them are truly irrelevant. Tinwhistler may be hinting (see subject-line) that le lutin d'Argail comes from a region of Scotland noted for its distinctive footwear. http://www.johnhelmer.com/products/full/78.jpg [...] > [Trilby: put a sock on it] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > http://www.johnhelmer.com/products/full/78.jpg Clever and charming. Except that I agree with MW11 that "argyle" is the pattern, not the sock -- is it used to mean sock somewhere? Argyle vests, jumpers, sweaters... SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> [Trilby: put a sock on it] >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Clever and charming. Except that I agree with MW11 that "argyle" is the >pattern, not the sock -- is it used to mean sock somewhere? It would be ordinary to exclaim "Good Lord! He's wearing argyles with a pin-stripe suit and cap toe shoes!". If such a thing was seen. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL [snip] Only if you can show some connection > between the du Maurier work and the Nodier work. We turn up these > happenstance associations while we're exploring, but some of them are > truly irrelevant. [snip] The name "Trilby" appears to have been a fashionable word c1895, with both the "hat" and "foot" senses taking hold about that time, following the du Maurier novel with the name as its title. As to why that name should become an eponym there could be much speculation, but I think that qua eponym, it goes back to the 1822 book title because du Maurier was a Francophile as I recall. (I recently saw the movie "Finding Neverland," in which Sylvia Llewelyn-Davies -- JM Barrie's real-life wife-- was the daughter-in-law of the du Maurier clan). Alice Brown's reference is just a proper name sort of thing, IMO, since "Crusoe" is referred to immediately prior to a capitalized "Trilby" (ie, the footprints were of a person named Trilby and were not prints of a trilby/foot) in her 1900 poem. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego On Jan 27, 2:32 pm, "tinwhistler" <ozziemal...@post.harvard.edu> wrote: > (I recently saw the movie > "Finding Neverland," in which Sylvia Llewelyn-Davies -- JM Barrie's > real-life wife-- was the daughter-in-law of the du Maurier clan). Oops -- Sylvia Llewelyn-Davies was not his wife, but the mother of the sons that Barrie became conservator for. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > [snip] > Only if you can show some connection [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I think that qua eponym, it goes back to the 1822 book title because > du Maurier was a Francophile as I recall. He was from a sort of British-French family and happened to be born in Paris. Biography here: http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illustration/dumaurier/pva95.html >(I recently saw the movie > "Finding Neverland," in which Sylvia Llewelyn-Davies -- JM Barrie's > real-life wife-- was the daughter-in-law of the du Maurier clan). You'd still have to point to *something* in the 1822 book that is referred to by the 1894 novel. Otherwise it's random chance. There might be copies of the 1822 story in French on-line. I didn't see one in English. > Alice Brown's reference is just a proper name sort of thing, IMO, > since "Crusoe" is referred to immediately prior to a capitalized > "Trilby" (ie, the footprints were of a person named Trilby and were > not prints of a trilby/foot) in her 1900 poem. Gosh, no, it made much more sense than just a random name. I don't mean that "trilby" in the poem meant foot, but the explanation showed why "foot" was a highly charged symbol in "Trilby." The most famous scene involved drawing Trilby's foot. You mentioned you had trouble with the URL I gave, but you did see what I quoted, right? Here's the same site: http://tinyurl.com/2gcvul SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux [snip] > Gosh, no, it made much more sense than just a random name. I don't mean > that "trilby" in the poem meant foot, but the explanation showed why [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://tinyurl.com/2gcvul [snip] My Google search came up with the Alice Brown poem, but I didn't stay with it long enough to find your webpage -- until you gave me the shorter link just now. I'm pasting a key paragraph here because of its pertinence for the thread: "...George Du Maurier's Trilby, the heroine's animal innocence, beauty, and sexuality were all symbolized by the exquisite shape of her naked feet, which were the focus of whatever sexuality the novel's three Englishmen express. The book was an international best-seller, selling nearly 300,000 copies its first year of publication. Du Maurier's biographer noted of the resulting Trilby-mania, "The scene in the novel that was most thoroughly exploited for commercial purposes was the one in which Little Billee sketched Trilby's perfect foot on the wall of his apartment." Thanks for greatly aiding my understanding of why the "foot" sense got started. I guess the hat sense started because of du Maurier's detailed description of the hat that the Mr. Trilby wore. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego [snip] > You'd still have to point to *something* in the 1822 book that is > referred to by the 1894 novel. Otherwise it's random chance. [snip] I think this webpage takes it well beyond random chance: http://fanac.org/fanzines/IGOTS/igotsnew9.htm [excerpt] Trilby, The Fairy of Argyle by Charles Nodier, Estes & Lauriat, Boston, 1895 Nodier, a member of the French Academy, wrote this story after a visit to Scotland in 1820, and it is translated here by Nathan Haskell Dole. This is apparently the origin of the name of the title character of DuMaurier's famous novel Trilby, which also became the name of a type of hat. The original Trilby, however, is always refered to as being male. [end excerpt] Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > [snip] > > You'd still have to point to *something* in the 1822 book that is [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > male. > [end excerpt] To me, it boosts the chances slightly, but it doesn't put it *that* far beyond random. It means that someone else besides you, a writer for a fanzine site, also thinks it was the source. Maybe they have good reason to think so and maybe they don't. Seeing as how this 1822 French story was suddenly translated and printed in 1895, what that says to me that *that* event was inspired by the Du Maurier Trilby craze. "Oh, look, there's another story with the same name, I bet that would sell." Although I only read short bits yesterday so I can't be sure, the 1822 Trilby seems to be a ghost or spirit messenger, nothing to do with the 1894 novel. Wikipedia points out that the 1822 story was made into a ballet in 1870. Ancestry World turns up a handful of people with first name "Trilby" before 1894. For example: CLARK, Trilby 1727 Of Harwich,Mass F: Scotto CLARK M: Thankful CROSBY Yes, Scotto was a first name, too, as was Thankful; I have two Thankfuls in my family tree. Fashions change. Anyway, Trilby is a name, and you can't jump to the conclusion that any two Trilbys must be associated, any more than any two Georges. I'm please to see from your quote that CDB's association of Argail and Argyle holds up -- same place. Scotland explains why Nodier would use such an un-French looking name as "Trilby," too. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux [...] > Here's the same site: > > http://tinyurl.com/2gcvul Thanks for this: very interesting; I hadn't been able to get through with the longer URL. Is it just my browser, or were readers generally not able to find the symbolic and emotionally-charged Homer painting? Anyhow, here it is: http://www.artic.edu/artexplorer-assets/aeimages/l/E10285_WL.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/yruouw . >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > up these happenstance associations while we're exploring, but some of > them are truly irrelevant. Nodier's work was adapted into a ballet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilby_%28ballet%29 There's a picture here of the ballerina who played Trilby. Du Maurier travelled on mainland Europe so it's not impossible he saw the ballet. It seems to me very likely he would have heard of it. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford [snip] Nodier's work was adapted into a ballet:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Trilby_%28ballet%29 > There's a picture here of the ballerina who played Trilby. > Du Maurier travelled on mainland Europe so it's not impossible he saw the > ballet. It seems to me very likely he would have heard of it. [snip] Thanks for that link to the Trilby ballet which came out in 1870 -- explicitly based on the Nodier work (the title character being changed from male to female). The choreographer was a Frenchman, Maestro Marius Ivanovich Petipa, Maître de Ballet of the Imperial Theatres St. Petersburg -- per the Wiki link on him we find this description: "...is cited nearly unanimously by the most noted artists of the classical ballet to be the most influential balletmaster and choreographer that has ever lived (among them - George Balanchine, who cited Petipa as his primary influence)...." So, Du Maurier's book with a female Trilby followed not long after a ballet by a Frenchman, a world-famous choreographer, based on the Nodier work -- the linkage between Nodier and Du Maurier works grows pretty strong. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > So, Du Maurier's book with a female Trilby followed not long after a > ballet by a Frenchman, a world-famous choreographer, based on the > Nodier work -- the linkage between Nodier and Du Maurier works grows > pretty strong. Your notion of "pretty strong" "linkage" is a heck of lot weaker than mine. That something happened and then that something else happened twenty-four years later is not what I call proof of causation. Not even evidence. It merely allows for the possibility of linkage. Eliza is a main character of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Eliza is a main character in Pygmalion (My Fair Lady). One was named before the other. Do we all have to agree that, therefore, the first is the inspiration of the second? I hope not. Eliza is also the name of a computer that talks, or should I say writes answers. People agree that that *is* associated to one of those two Elizas, but not just because of similarity of spelling. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > Eliza is a main character of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Eliza is a main > character in Pygmalion (My Fair Lady). One was named before the other. > Do we all have to agree that, therefore, the first is the inspiration of > the second? I hope not. Eliza was the name of a character in the Stowe book and the Shaw play. What we have before us in this thread are three 19th century works, all with the same title. I suppose if a book now came out with the title, West Side Story, and someone 100 years from now was looking for the origin of such phrase, they'd deny a linkage between the 2007 book and the earlier musical, following your logic. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > > Eliza is a main character of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Eliza is a main > > character in Pygmalion (My Fair Lady). One was named before the other. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > for the origin of such phrase, they'd deny a linkage between the 2007 > book and the earlier musical, following your logic. What does "deny a linkage" mean? To prove there is absolutely no link? (Damned hard to do). Or point out that none of us (yet) know of any significant, reasonable, content-based connection? That's where I am, and I'd say that the word "deny" doesn't fit. Saying that we don't know something is different from saying we know for sure it is untrue. I can't follow your "West Side" example well enough to imagine why I would "deny a linkage" (no matter what that means). It would depend a lot on what the content of the 2007 book *was*. Some reworking of Romeo and Juliet, bingo -- there's content. Some totally different material, perhaps relating to the western side of someplace, and just cleverly titled in order to allude to the musical, well, that's a sort of homage or pun. A link, but a weak one. I grant you, it's hard to imagine anyone titling anything "West Side Story" in 2007 and being ignorant that there was already a major work by that name. Even if it was a story about someone named Westly Side, or even if it was a member of a series "The North Side Story," "The East Side Story," etc. But I wouldn't grant the ballet Trilby such a mega-status. Look, I'll go this far on Trilby: the fact that a ballet named Trilby came out in 1870 (based on an 1822 story named Trilby) could certainly have put it into Du Maurier's subconscious that there was this rather rare name of Trilby. So when he was looking to name the girl in his book, trying and rejecting names, the way writers do, it was in his pool of possibilities to choose from. "Nothing classical, nothing Biblical, something vague, ah, I've got it." I call that a remote linkage, but it's quite plausible. It's different from claiming (on no evidence) that he was acquainted with the earlier story and the character and felt that his Trilby, in some way, was a reworking of (or even a mere homage to) either the 1822 ghost character or the 1870 ballet character. For us to know this, we need either external or internal clues. External, like letters and biographical material. Internal, from the works themselves. You and I, to this point, haven't located and examined any of this, have we? Contemporary correspondence and reviews, or even the works themselves? We have a shakey basis here. We're just raising issues. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux [snip] > You and I, to this point, haven't located and examined any of this, have > we? Contemporary correspondence and reviews, or even the works > themselves? We have a shakey basis here. We're just raising issues. [snip] OK, I'll agree that no 100% linkage has been established. As long as we're raising issues, I'd say that there seems to be a closer link between the Nodier book, dealing with an area of Scotland that produced wool tweeds, and the trilby hat, than there is between Du Maurier's female Trilby and such a hat. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > [snip] >> You and I, to this point, haven't located and examined any of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > produced wool tweeds, and the trilby hat, than there is between Du > Maurier's female Trilby and such a hat. Actually, there may be something to indicate a slim connection. I googled this up: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14392/14392-h/14392-h.htm , about halfway down the page: Title: George Du Maurier, the Satirist of the Victorians Author: T. Martin Wood Release Date: December 20, 2004 [eBook #14392] Trilby was a name that had long lain perdu somewhere "at the back of du Maurier's head." He traced it to a story by Charles Nodier, in which Trilby was a man. The name Trilby also appears in a poem by Alfred de Musset. And to this name, and to the story of a woman which was once told to him, du Maurier's Trilby owed her birth. "From the moment the name occurred to me," he said, "I was struck with its value. I at once realised that it was a name of great importance. I think I must have felt as happy as Thackeray did when the title of Vanity Fair suggested itself to him." > > [snip] > >> You and I, to this point, haven't located and examined any of [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > which Trilby was a man. The name Trilby also appears in a poem by > Alfred de Musset. That must be this, http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/R%C3%A9ponse_%C3%A0_M._Charles_Nodier De Musset's poem "Réponse à M. Charles Nodier." They knew each other. I can't analyze French poetry very well, but this looks like a passing reference to Nodier's character Trilby. Non pas cette belle insomnie Du génie, Où Trilby vient, prêt à chanter, T'écouter. > And to this name, and to the story of a woman which > was once told to him, du Maurier's Trilby owed her birth. "From the > moment the name occurred to me," he said, "I was struck with its > value. I at once realised that it was a name of great importance. I > think I must have felt as happy as Thackeray did when the title of > Vanity Fair suggested itself to him." Perfect, exactly the sort of thing we needed. Trilby was a name that appealed to du Maurier, that resonated with him. I like this bit from the same article: Before he began to write novels, he prided himself upon the fact that a store of "plots" for novels lay undeveloped in his mind. It was the offer of a "plot" to Mr. Henry James one evening when they were walking up and down the High Street, Bayswater, that resulted in du Maurier becoming a novelist. Du Maurier told him the plot of Trilby. "But you ought to write that story," cried James. "I can't write," he replied; "I have never written. If you like the plot so much you may take it." Mr. James said that it was too valuable a present to take, and that du Maurier must write the story himself. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux [snip] > connection. I > googled this up: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Author: T. Martin Wood [snip] > Trilby was a name that had long lain perdu somewhere "at the back of > du Maurier's head." He traced it to a story by Charles Nodier, in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > think I must have felt as happy as Thackeray did when the title of > Vanity Fair suggested itself to him." By George, he's got it. (Thanks, that's great researching.) Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego tinwhistler filted: >> Eliza is a main character of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Eliza is a main >> character in Pygmalion (My Fair Lady). One was named before the other. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >for the origin of such phrase, they'd deny a linkage between the 2007 >book and the earlier musical, following your logic. Back when John Landis was talking about the film he was working on, "An American Werewolf In London", he had to keep explaining to people that it had nothing to do with the Warren Zevon song of similar name....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" |
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