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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Attorney General
Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? This is not French, where the adjective goes AFTER the noun. > Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? > > This is not French, where the adjective goes AFTER the noun. You hit right on the answer. It *was* French, way back when. The Online Etymology Dictionary has: Attorney general first recorded 1533 in sense of "legal officer of the state" (1292 in Anglo-Fr.), from Fr., hence the odd plural (subject first, adjective second). Note the term "Angle-French," which MW-11 defines as "the French language used in medieval England."  SignatureBest wishes -- Donna Richoux > > Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > from Fr., hence the odd plural (subject first, > adjective second). [snip] Clarence Darrow was, I believe, one of the first US in-house lawyers representing a corporation as a lawyer -- his title was "General Attorney" (for the Santa Fe Railroad in it Chicago headquarters). That was my title in the time I was with Montgomery Ward & Co. in Chicago, but I was an underling to the "General Counsel" -- the styles had changed. (My boss, the "General Counsel," was none other than Daniel Walker -- who authored the 1968 Walker Report about the violence at the Chicago 1968 Democratic Convention and went on to be Governor of Illinois ... and then an inmate at the Duluth, MN, federal prison) Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego Donna Richoux filted: >> Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > from Fr., hence the odd plural (subject first, > adjective second). I have a box near this desk on which the original contents are described as "Cable Modem" on one side, and "Modem Cable" on the other...it's not hard to imagine a smaller container, once holding a cord meant to attach that device, with the same pair of bilingual descriptions, but reversed....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >> Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? >> >> This is not French, where the adjective goes AFTER the noun. > You hit right on the answer. It *was* French, way back when. The Online > Etymology Dictionary has: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Note the term "Angle-French," which MW-11 defines as "the French > language used in medieval England." Yes, the French influence on the development of the English language is less than many people suppose (There sems to be a widespread belief amongst Germans and the like that English is an amalgam of French and Germanic rather than Germanic with a few French and Latin load words). However the time when England was ruled by an aristocracy who spoke French has left us with many of the words which are to do with government being of French origin. French was the official language of government in England until (from memory) about the middle of the 14th century. Matthew Huntbach > >> Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Matthew Huntbach Yep, 1362 is when Edward III declared that the courts had to use English instead of French. But lawbooks were not written in English (with chunks of Latin thrown in) for almost 300 years yet. Sir Edward Coke's first volume was a translation of Sir Thomas Littleton's book on land law, which had been written in French with bigger chunks of Latin (Law French), in about 1483 (Coke translated the French and part of the Latin into English). Legalese hangs on to lots of old ways of saying things, sometimes because the old way has an accepted legal meaning that the current way does not, and sometimes for pure CYA ("on or about [date]," for example). And sometimes, just for grins! Cece > Yes, the French influence on the development of the English language is > less [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > French origin. French was the official language of government in England > until (from memory) about the middle of the 14th century. The interesting part is that French, of all the Romance languages, probably has more words of Germanic origin than any other. SignatureRob Bannister >> Yes, the French influence on the development of the English language is >> less than many people suppose (There sems to be a widespread belief amongst [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> French origin. French was the official language of government in England >> until (from memory) about the middle of the 14th century. > The interesting part is that French, of all the Romance languages, probably > has more words of Germanic origin than any other. Yes, it is a Romance language with many Germanic words, whereas English is a Germanic language with many Romance words. The French themselves are named after the Germanic tribe, the Franks, who seem to have lost their language fairly early on as they merged with the Romance-speaking inhabitants for whom they acted partly as allies and later as overlords in defence against further waves of Germanic tribes. Matthew Hunbach >The French themselves are named after the Germanic tribe, the Franks, >who seem to have lost their language fairly early on as they merged >with the Romance-speaking inhabitants ... as they merged with the Romance-speaking Celts who had arrived a few centuries previously ... -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>The French themselves are named after the Germanic tribe, the Franks, >>who seem to have lost their language fairly early on as they merged >>with the Romance-speaking inhabitants > > ... as they merged with the Romance-speaking Celts who had arrived a > few centuries previously ... Not forgetting the Romance-speaking Vikings who turned up a couple of centuries later. SignatureRob Bannister >Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? I think a general attorney would be a different thing, a private practice attorney who doesn't specialize. >This is not French, where the adjective goes AFTER the noun. And why do naughty soldiers get a court martial instead of a martial court, or even a military court? And why do some people aspire to have the body beautiful? Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney?I think a general attorney would be a different thing, a private > practice attorney who doesn't specialize. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * > * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * It is interesting to note that the plural of both of the aforementioned are attorneys general and courts martial. It is a natural (and common) mistake by people to refer to court marshals and attorney generals. Richard Lichten Richard Lichten: > It is interesting to note that the plural of both of the > aforementioned are attorneys general and courts martial. It is a > natural (and common) mistake by people to refer to court marshals and > attorney generals. Given that "court martial" is now commonly verbed and inflected as "court-martialed", I cannot agree that the plural noun "court martials" with or without a hyphen should be considered an error. Confusing it with the identically pronounced phrase "court marshals", on the other hand, is certainly an error. SignatureMark Brader | Up until now, you have been told never to use Toronto | the Goto. I use it. I use a revolver too, but msb@vex.net | I don't give it to my children. --a Prof. Baird My text in this article is in the public domain. [some slight tidying] > On 27 Jan, 20:55, Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> > > >Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? > > >I think a general attorney would be a different thing, a private [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > natural (and common) mistake by people to refer to court marshals and > attorney generals. There are marshals who work in courts, and I imagine they could be called court marshals. Who knows? maybe they are. Intersting slip of fingers, RL. (Feel free to share my initials. No charge.) In the real world, lots of these trailing-adjective compounds are frequently pluralized on the trailing word. Whether the practice is still "wrong" depends on your definition of "wrong." The late David Brinkley, for one, used to address the Attorney General of the United States as "General." Brinkley was a very literate and sophisticated fellow, and I don't understand why he persisted in that usage. Perhaps he was being puckish -- something he was quite good at. I've heard the same usage from others on occasion but can't remember who. The possessive 's pretty much has to go on the trailing adjective; it simply doesn't work attached to the noun in such phrases. SignatureBob Lieblich Former lieutenant junior grade > [some slight tidying] > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Bob Lieblich > Former lieutenant junior grade- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Yes, mea culpa, sorry chaps. Richard >>Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? > >I think a general attorney would be a different thing, a private >practice attorney who doesn't specialize. In some jurisdictions, the rules of the bar forbid attorneys from claiming a specialty (although they are, of course, free to refuse cases that they have no interest in). In reality, of course, they do specialize, and so you often see fine-print disclaimers attached to advertising. (I think the real issue is that attorneys are not licensed for specialties in the way that doctors, for example, are, and the regulators do not want people confused into thinking that (e.g.) the "elder lar" attorney they hear advertised on the radio has passed an examination on "elder lar".) In any event, that would make "general attorney" theoretically redundant. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>>Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >passed an examination on "elder lar".) In any event, that would make >"general attorney" theoretically redundant. Doctors may be board certified in a specialty, but I don't believe MDs are licensed for specialties. A board certified psychiatrist can legally remove your appendix. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? > >>This is not French, where the adjective goes AFTER the noun. No, it's English, where in certain standard phrases the adjective goes after the noun. Live with it. Katy ke10@cus.cam.ac.uk had it: > >>Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? > > > >>This is not French, where the adjective goes AFTER the noun. > > No, it's English, where in certain standard phrases the adjective goes after > the noun. Live with it. Never mind the fact that in French, certain adjectives can go before the noun. As in English, the meaning changes when you move the adjective. SignatureDavid ===== > And why do some people aspire to have the body beautiful? Dunno. Surely it's better to sing the body electric. -- > Why is the position called Attorney General and not General Attorney? > > This is not French, where the adjective goes AFTER the noun. In the British tradition, suffix general is commonly used distinguish the top official of a country (or state or province), e.g. Auditor General, Solicitor General, and so on. It means his sphere of responsibility is general i.e. universally wide, not limited to one particular subset of problems. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) |
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