Steering the train
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Mike Lyle - 25 Feb 2007 18:28 GMT I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio, which earlier today said the driver had been "praised for trying to steer the train to safety".
 Signature Mike.
-- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Hatunen - 25 Feb 2007 18:45 GMT >I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after >which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio, >which earlier today said the driver had been "praised for trying to >steer the train to safety". You gotta really grip that steering wheel...
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Paul Wolff - 25 Feb 2007 19:02 GMT >On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:28:38 -0000, "Mike Lyle" ><mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >You gotta really grip that steering wheel... The train was a Virgin, and reluctant to go all the way.
 Signature Paul In bocca al Lupo!
tinwhistler - 25 Feb 2007 19:34 GMT [snip]
> The train was a Virgin, and reluctant to go all the way. [snip]
It's in the newspapers as well:
http://tinyurl.com/2hcgwp
Investigators Inspect Tracks After Fatal U.K. Train Wreck Saturday, February 24, 2007 AP
"...Branson said driver Ian Black, a former police officer, had attempted to keep the train on the railroad tracks, refusing to abandon his cabin and seek shelter with passengers. Black, who suffered serious neck injuries, had chosen not to "desert the bridge and deserves a lot of praise for that," Branson said. "He is a definitely a hero. In the sober light of day we will have to see if he can be recognized as such." Branson said Black was able to move his fingers and his toes despite his neck injuries...."
I guess the media can declare Black white. (The rail line is owned by the owner of Virgin Airlines.)
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Philip Eden - 25 Feb 2007 22:50 GMT "tinwhistler" <ozziemaland@post.harvard.edu> wrote :
> "...Branson said driver Ian Black, a former police officer, had > attempted to keep the train on the railroad tracks, refusing to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I guess the media can declare Black white. (The rail line is owned by > the owner of Virgin Airlines.) Is this a pondial difference? By rail line, do you mean the physical railway/railroad track, or the service?
The rail line (i.e. track) is actually owned by Network Rail, a company largely or possibly wholly owned by the British government. The train is/was owned by Branson's company, and the service was run by Branson's company.
Philip Eden
tinwhistler - 25 Feb 2007 23:54 GMT On Feb 25, 2:50 pm, "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote: [snip]
> Is this a pondial difference? By rail line, do you mean the > physical railway/railroad track, or the service? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > by the British government. The train is/was owned by Branson's > company, and the service was run by Branson's company. [snip]
I meant the rail service -- it's not a pondial thing, just my hastiness.
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Robert Bannister - 26 Feb 2007 00:16 GMT > On Feb 25, 2:50 pm, "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I meant the rail service -- it's not a pondial thing, just my > hastiness. It made sense to me: airline, therefore rail line. However, we always used to call the actual track the "railway line" or "lines".
 Signature Rob Bannister
Hatunen - 26 Feb 2007 00:11 GMT >"tinwhistler" <ozziemaland@post.harvard.edu> wrote : >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >Is this a pondial difference? Not really. Our semi-public AMTRAK rail system does not own any trackage; the tracks are owned by our private rail corporations. There is, though, a question of what the writer meant by "rail line".
By rail line, do you mean the
>physical railway/railroad track, or the service? > >The rail line (i.e. track) is actually owned >by Network Rail, a company largely or possibly wholly owned >by the British government. Their web site shows no indication that it is partly or wholly owned by the government, nor is a crown corporation, although it is government-regulated.
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Numeromania - 26 Feb 2007 02:15 GMT > Not really. Our semi-public AMTRAK rail system does not own any > trackage; the tracks are owned by our private rail corporations. Not true. According to the Wikipedia entry on the Northeast Corridor, "Amtrak owns the track between Washington and New Rochelle, New York, a northern suburb of New York City."
Hatunen - 26 Feb 2007 20:23 GMT >> Not really. Our semi-public AMTRAK rail system does not own any >> trackage; the tracks are owned by our private rail corporations. > >Not true. According to the Wikipedia entry on the Northeast Corridor, >"Amtrak owns the track between Washington and New Rochelle, New York, a >northern suburb of New York City." A stand corrected. I believe Amtrak does own the Northeast Corridor route. But it is a very small part of Amtrak.
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Mike Page - 27 Feb 2007 20:29 GMT >"tinwhistler" <ozziemaland@post.harvard.edu> wrote : >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >by the British government. The train is/was owned by Branson's >company, and the service was run by Branson's company. Are you sure the train was owned by Virgin? Nearly all the rolling stock is owned by train leasing companies and leased to the operating companies. That way if a franchise is not renewed the departing company can't hold the incomer to ransom over the price of the trains.
-- Mike Page Posting trivia to aue since April 1997
Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 22:15 GMT >>"tinwhistler" <ozziemaland@post.harvard.edu> wrote : >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >the departing company can't hold the incomer to ransom over the >price of the trains. Quite.
A financial website carries a report of the accident: http://www.advfn.com/news_Virgin-Trains-Pendolino-derailed-by-faulty-points-RAIB _19557573.html
or http://tinyurl.com/2xqald
... The 11 mln stg Pendolino tilting train damaged in the accident is one of a 53-strong fleet built in Birmingham by French engineering group Alstom and owned by Royal Bank of Scotland Group PLC train leasing business Angel Trains. ...
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 22:50 GMT >>>"tinwhistler" <ozziemaland@post.harvard.edu> wrote : >>>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Group PLC train leasing business Angel Trains. > ... That reports also says:
Virgin and Stagecoach Group PLC run the UK's West Coast and Cross Country rail franchises via Virgin Rail Group, in which they hold stakes of 51 pct and 49 pct respectively.
The silence of Brian Souter, chairman and co-founder of Stagecoach, is deafening. He seems happy to let Branson be the frontman in respect of the accident.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Paul Wolff - 27 Feb 2007 23:59 GMT >On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:15:33 +0000, Peter Duncanson ><mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >is deafening. He seems happy to let Branson be the frontman in >respect of the accident. If something derailed *my* train, I'd wish to say as little as possible in this blameworld until I knew what it was, and who, if anyone, was responsible for it. Not for nothing do insurers instruct motorists in involved in accidents just to exchange the basic essential facts. Even expressions of regret can be misconstrued.
He could have said "We are most upset, though perhaps not as upset as the train was. And as minority investors in the train operating company, we shall instruct our Board to lift every finger, nay, strain every sinew, to find out what the hell happened, and why; and then to act appropriately, in accordance with good conscience and best practice." Not that this would have made one jot of practical difference to anyone affected by the event.
Such talk is cheap, and worth less. Better to not add to the noise.
["To not add" is the infinitive form of a verb that I cannot, at this moment, pare down to fewer words. "To fewer words" is the... etc.]
 Signature Paul In bocca al Lupo!
Adrian Tuddenham - 28 Feb 2007 10:59 GMT > http://www.advfn.com/news_Virgin-Trains-Pendolino-derailed-by-faulty-points- >RAIB_19557573.html The carriages "...came to rest at varying angles".
I'm prepared to believe that they came to rest, but I doubt if they then started revolving.
 Signature ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
contrex - 25 Feb 2007 19:00 GMT On 25 Feb, 18:28, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after > which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com Where are you from? That sort of remark from idiots in the media is a perennial joke on the uk.railway newsgroup. Usually someone on the BBC makes them. The Bearded One made a few choice ones, praising the train's driver for staying "at the controls" during the crash. Just where you go while a derailed train doing 95 mph goes where it wants I'm not sure.
Nick Spalding - 25 Feb 2007 21:46 GMT contrex wrote, in <1172430052.880851.96390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> on 25 Feb 2007 11:00:52 -0800:
> On 25 Feb, 18:28, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > where you go while a derailed train doing 95 mph goes where it wants > I'm not sure. Or how 'staying at the controls' could achieve anything.
 Signature Nick Spalding
Skitt - 25 Feb 2007 21:55 GMT >>> I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, >>> after which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Or how 'staying at the controls' could achieve anything. It's not the staying at the controls, but the timely leaning right or left that guides the train around obstacles. You know -- like in bowling.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
irwell - 26 Feb 2007 00:01 GMT >contrex wrote, in <1172430052.880851.96390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> > on 25 Feb 2007 11:00:52 -0800: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Or how 'staying at the controls' could achieve anything. Somebody has to hold the Dead Man's Handle.
John Dean - 27 Feb 2007 00:14 GMT >> contrex wrote, in >> <1172430052.880851.96390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> on 25 Feb [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Somebody has to hold the Dead Man's Handle. That's only when you want the train to run. At the point at which it leaves the tracks, you want it to stop. Therefore relinquish the DMH (if there is such a thing on the Pendolino). Branson's considered view (as opposed to the stumbling and repetitive speech he gave on the scene) is at http://www.virgintrainsmediaroom.com/index.cfm?articleid=1005
"The driver did an amazing job," said Sir Richard at the site of the accident on Saturday 24 February. "He stayed in his seat for a quarter of a mile to control the train as it came off the rails, and didn't try to protect himself by running back into the coach behind."
Still no clarification of how this "control" was exercised nor why it was good for the driver not to protect himself. I'd have thought the more able bodied souls available to assist the injured when the train came to a halt the better.
 Signature John Dean Oxford
the Omrud - 27 Feb 2007 08:24 GMT john-dean@fraglineone.net had it:
> > Somebody has to hold the Dead Man's Handle. > > That's only when you want the train to run. At the point at which it leaves > the tracks, you want it to stop. Therefore relinquish the DMH (if there is > such a thing on the Pendolino). I think modern trains have a pedal.
 Signature David =====
Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 11:10 GMT >john-dean@fraglineone.net had it: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I think modern trains have a pedal. Where "modern" began decades ago.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 12:29 GMT >>john-dean@fraglineone.net had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Where "modern" began decades ago. There is a website that says that the dead man's pedal was invented prior to 1918 for use on a particular design of steam locomotive in use in New Jersey. http://www.fineartmodels.com/pages/product.asp?content_area=3&sub_area=10&produc t_area=43
Jersey Central T-38 Camelback 4-6-0 ... One of the most unusual steam locomotive designs, as well as one of the most familiar despite the fact that none were built after World War I, originated as a solution to an interesting technical problem: the Camelback. In the mid-19th century, coal-mining practices were much less efficient than they are today. Some 20 percent of Pennsylvania's total anthracite output was regarded as waste too fine for general use, in light of its high shale content. While this culm could be used for heating buildings and other forgiving applications, it lacked the high heat content needed to power the locomotives of the day. John Wootten, later general manager of the Philadelphia & Reading, saw that such fuel might prove practical if burned on a sufficiently large grate. In 1877, the first locomotive with a wide Wootten firebox was completed. Six years later, 170 more such locomotives were in service. Together they saved the railroad almost $400,000 on its annual coal bill. The Wootten firebox was so big that it left little room at the rear of the locomotive for a conventional cab. The solution was to arrange a separate cab for the engineer astride the boiler, with a smaller deck for the fireman remaining in the traditional position between the firebox and tender. However, this camelback design, also known as the Mother Hubbard, had drawbacks. Their engineers worked in a hot, cramped environment - so hot and so cramped, that even in winter, they preferred to sit on the window sill. Some even fell out, which led to the invention of the dead man's pedal. Even when they stayed put, engineers could be exposed to steam leaks and broken side rods and had no easy escape route in an emergency. In 1918, the Interstate Commerce Commission banned further construction of Camelbacks. ...
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
tinwhistler - 27 Feb 2007 16:58 GMT [snip]
> and had no easy escape route in an emergency. In 1918, the > Interstate Commerce Commission banned further construction of > Camelbacks. [snip]
I can hear a farker snicker, "Yeah, but if you're lucky you can still see a camel toe."
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Hatunen - 27 Feb 2007 16:49 GMT >>> Or how 'staying at the controls' could achieve anything. >> >> Somebody has to hold the Dead Man's Handle. > >That's only when you want the train to run. At the point at which it leaves >the tracks, you want it to stop. I think it was meant as a joke. At least I took it as such.
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Robert Bannister - 27 Feb 2007 22:48 GMT >>>contrex wrote, in >>><1172430052.880851.96390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> on 25 Feb [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > bodied souls available to assist the injured when the train came to a halt > the better. I assumed some sort of controlled braking. I was thinking of the derailment as being a bit like a car skidding. What actually happened, we'll probably never know.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 23:25 GMT >>> contrex wrote, in >>> <1172430052.880851.96390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> on 25 Feb [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >bodied souls available to assist the injured when the train came to a halt >the better. I would guess that the driver decided to slow the train by cutting the power and applying the brakes. Note that the brakes operate on wheels all along the train, so there would be some normal braking effect as long as at least part of the train was on the track. I have no idea whether braking would have any effect, good or bad, for derailed wheels running on the ballast and across the sleepers (AmE: ties).
It is perfectly possible that it did not enter the driver's head to leave his cab. Drivers are presumably not accustomed to leaving the controls while the train is in motion.
Regarding the "dead man's handle/pedal/button" or Driver's Vigilance Device as it known generically: I believe that when released this cuts the power and applies the brakes. It appears that a time delay of a few seconds is normal.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
M. J. Powell - 25 Feb 2007 19:42 GMT >I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after >which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio, >which earlier today said the driver had been "praised for trying to >steer the train to safety". I heard one reporter ask an expert what 'points' were.
Mike
 Signature M.J.Powell
Paul Wolff - 25 Feb 2007 23:00 GMT >In message <45e1c8b0$0$16391$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>, Mike Lyle ><mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I heard one reporter ask an expert what 'points' were. In this context, the starting position for a grand jeté. Also known as a saut de chat, a sort of cat.
 Signature Paul In bocca al Lupo!
Mike Lyle - 25 Feb 2007 23:28 GMT >> In message <45e1c8b0$0$16391 [...]
>> I heard one reporter ask an expert what 'points' were. >> > In this context, the starting position for a grand jeté. Also known > as a saut de chat, a sort of cat. Colloquially known (cf "throw a punch", "kick up a fuss", etc) as "swinging a cat". Impoverished ballet students find it notoriously hard to get digs big enough for their practice: hence the well-known expression for diminutive apartments.
 Signature Mike.
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Robert Bannister - 26 Feb 2007 00:04 GMT >>> I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after >>> which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > In this context, the starting position for a grand jeté. Also known as > a saut de chat, a sort of cat. In my crossword puzzle, it always means the letters E, N, S or W.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Garrett Wollman - 26 Feb 2007 03:30 GMT >I heard one reporter ask an expert what 'points' were. An American reporter probably would have to ask (for the benefit of his audience if not for himself). We have switches here, not points. (However, in the jargon, they do talk about "leading-point" and "trailing-point" switches, and an expert here would understand the en_GB terminology.) Switches are a subclass of "special work" (also jargon).
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Mike Lyle - 26 Feb 2007 12:47 GMT > In article <0qL2GbAqae4FF...@pickmere.demon.co.uk>, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > en_GB terminology.) Switches are a subclass of "special work" (also > jargon). I feel sure I once read, or was told, that real techie British railway language makes a distinction between "points" and "switches". Does this "leading-point" and "trailing-point" have something to do with that?
-- Mike.
contrex - 26 Feb 2007 19:58 GMT > I feel sure I once read, or was told, that real techie British railway > language makes a distinction between "points" and "switches". Does > this "leading-point" and "trailing-point" have something to do with > that? In the UK a "switch" is one of a pair of linked tapering rails that can be moved laterally to cause a train to pass from one line to the other. The whole set of rails making up such a junction being commonly referred to as points. Americans commonly call the whole thing a switch.
The same set of points could be facing or trailing depending on the direction of travel. Points which allow a train to change lines without reversing the direction of travel are known as facing points. If a train would have to reverse to change lines, they would be described as trailing points.
UK - facing points US - facing point switch
That type of trackwork is often generically called "special trackwork" or "point and crossing work" in the US. Perversely, the UK equivalent is "switch and crossing work".
Peter Duncanson - 26 Feb 2007 21:10 GMT >> I feel sure I once read, or was told, that real techie British railway >> language makes a distinction between "points" and "switches". Does [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >or "point and crossing work" in the US. Perversely, the UK equivalent >is "switch and crossing work". There is a song about points. It was the theme tune of the BBC TV pop music show "Six Five Special" (1957). http://www.whirligig-tv.co.uk/tv/adults/rocknroll/sixfivespecial.htm
Over the points, over the points, over the points, over the points. The 6.5 Special's steamin' down the line, The 6.5 Special's right on time. Coal in the boiler burnin' up'n bright, Rollin' and a-rockin' through the night, My heart's a-beatin' 'cos I'll be meetin' The 6.5. Special at the station tonight. The 6.5 Special better not be late, The 6.5 Special platform 8, The train starts a-brakin' hard as can be, The station is a-shakin' like a tree' And I won't be missin' that special kissin' When the 6.5 Special brings my baby to me. Hear the whistle blowin' 12 to the bar. See the lights a-glowin' bright as a star. Now the wheels a-slowin', can't be far. ...more
Full lyrics: http://www.whirligig-tv.co.uk/tv/adults/rocknroll/sixfive.htm
In glorious ancient audio: http://www.whirligig-tv.co.uk/tv/adults/rocknroll/sixfivespecial.wav
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
contrex - 26 Feb 2007 21:22 GMT > There is a song about points. It was the theme tune of the BBC TV > pop music show "Six Five Special" (1957) I remember it well. We had just got a TV. I was 5 years old. Another series around that time was "The old Pull and Push" set on a Kent or Sussex branch line. The theme tune was a song in the "skiffle" style, sung in a faux-American accent, and it sounded like the guy was singing "The Old Bull and Bush", which is another song altogether. I have always been interested in railways.
I forgot to mention that just as the American "special trackwork" is shortened by those in the business to "special work", so the UK "switch and crossing work" is shortened to "S and C" or even "S&C" in writing. A driver won't say "There are lots of points outside Waterloo", he or she would most likely say "there is plenty of S and C" there.
Garrett Wollman - 26 Feb 2007 22:27 GMT >I forgot to mention that just as the American "special trackwork" is >shortened by those in the business to "special work", "Special work" is more general, as it also includes the power system, not just track. While most electrified mainline railways use catenary, special work in the overhead is necessary for lines that still use trolley wire (primarily urban transit systems). Trolleybuses actually require physical switches up there (since the two wires have to cross each other somehow).
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Adrian Tuddenham - 27 Feb 2007 08:51 GMT > >I forgot to mention that just as the American "special trackwork" is > >shortened by those in the business to "special work", [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > actually require physical switches up there (since the two wires have > to cross each other somehow). In tramway parlance, that is called OHLE (OverHead Line Equipment). The term "special work" only refers to trackwork.
I thought that was also the case with railways.
 Signature ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
contrex - 27 Feb 2007 10:35 GMT On 27 Feb, 08:51, poppy...@ukonline.invalid.invalid (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote:
> > "Special work" is more general, as it also includes the power system, > > not just track. While most electrified mainline railways use [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > In tramway parlance, that is called OHLE (OverHead Line Equipment). > The term "special work" only refers to trackwork.
> I thought that was also the case with railways. He's talking about US usage. In the UK we have OHLE (and "juice rails" darn sarf).
The point (sorry!) about trolley bus OHLE switches reminds me of the ones I noted in Croydon as a kid. They were electrically actuated. (and called "frogs".) Shortly before a point where the trolleybus had a choice of routes, the overhead wire would have an insulated joint, so that the section immediately before the OHLE switch was fed separately. The current being drawn was sensed. If the driver desired to take the turnout, he drew power. If not, he coasted. A board on a pole read "Take power to turn - coast for straight on" or something like that.
Once the trolleybus had cleared the junction, detected by a similar method, the frog would return to the straight ahead position.
There is a weird arrangement in Melbourne, Australia where 650v trams cross a 1500v railway at grade in four places. An elaborate arrangement of wires called an "overhead square" is rigged up over the crossings, and switching ensures that the trains and trams get the right voltage. I wonder if a fault eg a stuck contactor has ever resulted in a tram getting more juice than it bargained for?
Mark Brader - 27 Feb 2007 06:22 GMT Mike Harvey:
> In the UK a "switch" is one of a pair of linked tapering rails that > can be moved laterally to cause a train to pass from one line to the > other. The whole set of rails making up such a junction being commonly > referred to as points. Americans commonly call the whole thing a > switch. And each of the individual moving rails is a "point" or "switchpoint".
I see that this British use of "switch" exists, because it occurs in the official preliminary report on the accident. But I have rarely or never encountered it before. In my experience the usual British term has been "blade" or "point blade".
> The same set of points could be facing or trailing depending on the > direction of travel. Yes.
> Points which allow a train to change lines without reversing the > direction of travel are known as facing points. If a train would > have to reverse to change lines, they would be described as trailing > points. "Change lines" could have all sorts of meanings. A simpler way to put it is: "facing" means that the tracks are diverging, "trailing" that they are converging. Typically these terms relate implicitly to the normal direction of travel on a particular track.
 Signature Mark Brader, | "There is no silver bullet, because not every Toronto, msb@vex.net | problem is a werewolf." -- Damian Conway
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Mike Lyle - 27 Feb 2007 18:34 GMT > Mike Harvey: >> In the UK a "switch" is one of a pair of linked tapering rails that [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > they are converging. Typically these terms relate implicitly to the > normal direction of travel on a particular track. For completeness, I'll mention that BR trains were not generally allowed by Board of Trade Regulations to go over points the "wrong way". I don't know how it is with modern metals. On the branch line I knew, the Exe Valley Line, when trains (14xx auto-tanker sets or pannier tankers whose numbers I forget) had to change from the up to the down platform, any passengers were required to dismount.
(As it was a former GWR line, any movement was, of course, preceded by a whistle: I've only quite recently twigged that drivers no longer give a warning before moving off.)
 Signature Mike.
-- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Jonathan Morton - 26 Feb 2007 23:13 GMT >>I heard one reporter ask an expert what 'points' were. > > An American reporter probably would have to ask (for the benefit of > his audience if not for himself). We have switches here, not points. We have both here - though "switches" tends to be technical - "switch and crossing" work and so on.
> (However, in the jargon, they do talk about "leading-point" and > "trailing-point" switches, and an expert here would understand the > en_GB terminology.) Switches are a subclass of "special work" (also > jargon). Points in the UK are either "facing" or "trailing" - both expressions should be intelligible, even to a journalist.
And I've only come here tonight to escape the nonsense on this very subject in uk.railway.
Regards
Jonathan
Peter Duncanson - 26 Feb 2007 12:14 GMT >I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after >which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio, >which earlier today said the driver had been "praised for trying to >steer the train to safety". Other news reporting oddities on the night of the derailment, mainly from Sky News:
1. The crash happened in a very remote area. There was only a narrow lane to the location with no room for large vehicles to pass one another.
The accident happened about 4 miles from the town of Kendal (pop. approx. 30,000). There are main roads within 5 miles, including the M6. http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?lat=54.3577&lon=-2.6624&scale=100000&icon=x
The location is not "remote" by any reasonable interpretation of that word. The fact that there are roads and lanes very close to the location also severely undermines any notion of remoteness.
2. The train was derailed and fell into a ditch (!).
It is a hilly area with lots of local ups and downs. The track runs through and over cuttings, embankments, viaducts and bridges. The train came off the track and more than half of it slid and rolled down an embankment.
3. The Sky News presenters and editors appeared to have struggled to find an inclusive word for the personnel of the fire and rescue service, ambulance service, one possibly two mountain rescue teams, helicopter crews, etc. who were working on site. They called them "operators".
Most people would have chosen "rescuers".
Sadly the amateurishness of the reporting is yet another indication of the abyssmal lack of general knowledge of those in TV news studios. It becomes apparent almost every time they have have to deal with live events.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Peter Moylan - 26 Feb 2007 23:54 GMT > Other news reporting oddities on the night of the derailment, mainly > from Sky News: > > 1. The crash happened in a very remote area. There was only a narrow > lane to the location with no room for large vehicles to pass one > another. There are some NSW reporters (and, I suspect, most of the NSW government) for whom "rural" means "anywhere outside Sydney". Do you likewise have a group for whom "remote" means "not in London"?
 Signature Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time.
Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 10:55 GMT >> Other news reporting oddities on the night of the derailment, mainly >> from Sky News: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >government) for whom "rural" means "anywhere outside Sydney". Do you >likewise have a group for whom "remote" means "not in London"? Yes, indeed.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Philip Eden - 27 Feb 2007 12:45 GMT "Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote :
>>> Other news reporting oddities on the night of the derailment, mainly >>> from Sky News: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Yes, indeed. I noticed one report last night describing the site, which had clearly been accessed by countless officials, celebrity rail company owners, journalists and others, as "inaccessible". What he meant, I suppose, is that it was "not easily accessible to heavy lifting equipment given the present waterlogged conditions of the fields."
Philip Eden
Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 17:02 GMT >"Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote : >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I suppose, is that it was "not easily accessible to heavy lifting >equipment given the present waterlogged conditions of the fields." Yes.
I must confess that the day after the crash while watching the almost continuous coverage on Sky News and BBC News 24 I was waiting for some intrepid reporter to ask an official whether the train's coaches/carriages/cars could be lifted by helicopter.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
R H Draney - 27 Feb 2007 20:21 GMT Peter Duncanson filted:
>I must confess that the day after the crash while watching the >almost continuous coverage on Sky News and BBC News 24 I was waiting >for some intrepid reporter to ask an official whether the train's >coaches/carriages/cars could be lifted by helicopter. Shame it's the wrong part of the country for a latter-day Merlin to levitate them off the crash site....r
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John Dean - 28 Feb 2007 00:51 GMT >> "Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote : >>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > for some intrepid reporter to ask an official whether the train's > coaches/carriages/cars could be lifted by helicopter. Would have been more interesting if they'd asked about the heavy-lifting cranes sited on flat cars which British Rail used to maintain and which could be brought right up the scene of a crash by, er, rail. Very expensive to keep fettled for the rare occasions they were needed. Obviously a prime target for economies. How could you make a profit if you had to keep heavy machinery in good enough shape to be at the scene of a crash within a few hours and maybe save a few lives by lifting away wreckage?
 Signature John Dean Oxford
Mike Lyle - 28 Feb 2007 14:02 GMT [...]
> Would have been more interesting if they'd asked about the heavy-lifting > cranes sited on flat cars which British Rail used to maintain and which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > machinery in good enough shape to be at the scene of a crash within a few > hours and maybe save a few lives by lifting away wreckage? That's just the politics of envy. Next you'll be saying the companies' dividends should be related to how well they run a railway.
Youngest and I once found a huge red trailer parked in a lay-by on the A40. We clambered over it with relish, and counted all 96 wheels with awe: it was what they use to shift railway engines by road. (Huh?) I don't even know if there's more than one of them in Europe: somebody (perhaps wrongly) later told me it had to be fetched from France.
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Peter Duncanson - 28 Feb 2007 14:43 GMT >> I must confess that the day after the crash while watching the >> almost continuous coverage on Sky News and BBC News 24 I was waiting [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >machinery in good enough shape to be at the scene of a crash within a few >hours and maybe save a few lives by lifting away wreckage? I understand your point. However it is likely that such cranes still exist.[1] If they do they could potentially be used for "rerailing" the last three carriages of the Virgin train. The other carriages look to be in positions that are well outside the reach of track-mounted cranes. The responsibility for the engineering aspects of the rescue would have been with the Fire and Rescue Service. If track-mounted heavy-lifting cranes ahd been needed they wouled have been called for. If they chad been called for but did not exist I think the story would have got out.
The interim report of the Rail Accident Investigation Branch is at: http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources/070226_I012007_Grayrigg.pdf
This includes a "Diagram of switch and stock rails and stretcher bar", and a "Photograph of derailed train with carriages numbered".
[1] Derailments do happen from time to time and locomotives, carriages and wagons do need to be rerailed. There must be cranes available to do this. The RAIB has nearly 40 investigations in hand at the moment. The largest single category is derailment -- 17 in total.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson - 28 Feb 2007 15:14 GMT >>> I must confess that the day after the crash while watching the >>> almost continuous coverage on Sky News and BBC News 24 I was waiting [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >at the moment. The largest single category is derailment -- 17 in >total. I've found the House of Lords debate on "Railway Safety" following the Ladbroke Grove train crash (in which the visibility of a signal was a central issue). The availability of heavy lifting gear was raised (no pun intended):
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199899/ldhansrd/vo991011/text/91011-05.htm [Foot of this page and top of the next]
11 Oct 1999 Lord Methuen: My Lords, the issue is of particular significance to me. I was a railway signal engineer and I am still a member of the Institution of Railway Signal Engineers, the professional body to which most of these people belong. I know that they will be deeply distressed by what has happened at Paddington. ... Can the Minister comment on the issue--it has not yet been raised--of the absence of rail-mounted heavy lifting gear which could have given more rapid assistance? I understand that the crane had to be brought by road from Carlisle. In the old days of British Rail such heavy rail-mounted equipment would have been at the local depots and available within four hours or so.
[The Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions] Lord Macdonald of Tradeston: My Lords, the availability of the heavy lifting gear has not been raised as yet with me, but I shall take account of what the noble Lord said.
So it seems that even in Ye Olden Days rail-mounted heavy lifting gear would not have been available very quickly.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
John Dean - 28 Feb 2007 18:46 GMT >>>> I must confess that the day after the crash while watching the >>>> almost continuous coverage on Sky News and BBC News 24 I was [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > So it seems that even in Ye Olden Days rail-mounted heavy lifting > gear would not have been available very quickly. Available within four hours? I think that's pretty good. I believe we're still waiting for it to arrive at Oxenholme.
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athel...@yahoo - 27 Feb 2007 16:00 GMT > On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:54:41 +1100, Peter Moylan > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Yes, indeed. In the days around 30 years ago when the motorway network in the UK was a lot more rudimentary than it is now this London-centric attitude was obvious in the numbering of the M1, M5 and M6: to an unbiassed eye these formed a pattern like an H, with a western road that went (with gaps) from Exeter to Manchester, an eastern road that went from London to Leeds, and a third that connected the two. However, that wasn't the way it looked to the chaps in London, with the result that the western limb suffers an arbitrary change in name from M5 to M6 at a nondescript place between Birmingham and Wolverhampton. Despite the fact that I knew this perfectly well when I lived in Birmingham, I found it sufficiently confusing that on one occasion instead of continuing straight along the M5 when the M6 changed into it I found myself heading off towards Coventry.
athel
Nick Atty - 27 Feb 2007 20:04 GMT >> Other news reporting oddities on the night of the derailment, mainly >> from Sky News: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >government) for whom "rural" means "anywhere outside Sydney". Do you >likewise have a group for whom "remote" means "not in London"? We've got two. Ones the BBC and the other is the Government.
If a major political even happens outside the M25 we get a report from "our north of England corespondent" and a map showing us where Birmingham is. If someone gets a sore toe in a London park we get a live report from the "Sore toes in parks correspondent" and are all assumed to know exactly where Victoria Park is.
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Nick Atty - 28 Feb 2007 00:11 GMT >We've got two. Ones the BBC and the other is the Government. "one's" - that key doesn't seem to work reliably.
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