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Steering the train

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Mike Lyle - 25 Feb 2007 18:28 GMT
I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after
which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio,
which earlier today said the driver had been "praised for trying to
steer the train to safety".

Signature

Mike.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Hatunen - 25 Feb 2007 18:45 GMT
>I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after
>which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio,
>which earlier today said the driver had been "praised for trying to
>steer the train to safety".

You gotta really grip that steering wheel...

Signature

  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Paul Wolff - 25 Feb 2007 19:02 GMT
>On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:28:38 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
><mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>You gotta really grip that steering wheel...

The train was a Virgin, and reluctant to go all the way.
Signature

Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

tinwhistler - 25 Feb 2007 19:34 GMT
[snip]
> The train was a Virgin, and reluctant to go all the way.
[snip]

It's in the newspapers as well:

http://tinyurl.com/2hcgwp

Investigators Inspect Tracks After Fatal U.K. Train Wreck
Saturday, February 24, 2007
AP

"...Branson said driver Ian Black, a former police officer, had
attempted to keep the train on the railroad tracks, refusing to
abandon his cabin and seek shelter with passengers.  Black, who
suffered serious neck injuries, had chosen not to "desert the bridge
and deserves a lot of praise for that," Branson said. "He is a
definitely a hero. In the sober light of day we will have to see if he
can be recognized as such."  Branson said Black was able to move his
fingers and his toes despite his neck injuries...."

I guess the media can declare Black white.  (The rail line is owned by
the owner of Virgin Airlines.)

Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Philip Eden - 25 Feb 2007 22:50 GMT
"tinwhistler" <ozziemaland@post.harvard.edu> wrote :

> "...Branson said driver Ian Black, a former police officer, had
> attempted to keep the train on the railroad tracks, refusing to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I guess the media can declare Black white.  (The rail line is owned by
> the owner of Virgin Airlines.)

Is this a pondial difference?  By rail line, do you mean the
physical railway/railroad track, or the service?

The rail line (i.e. track) is actually owned
by Network Rail, a company largely or possibly wholly owned
by the British government. The train is/was owned by Branson's
company, and the service was run by Branson's company.

Philip Eden
tinwhistler - 25 Feb 2007 23:54 GMT
On Feb 25, 2:50 pm, "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom>
wrote:
[snip]

> Is this a pondial difference?  By rail line, do you mean the
> physical railway/railroad track, or the service?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> by the British government. The train is/was owned by Branson's
> company, and the service was run by Branson's company.
[snip]

I meant the rail service -- it's not a pondial thing, just my
hastiness.

Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Robert Bannister - 26 Feb 2007 00:16 GMT
> On Feb 25, 2:50 pm, "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I meant the rail service -- it's not a pondial thing, just my
> hastiness.

It made sense to me: airline, therefore rail line. However, we always
used to call the actual track the "railway line" or "lines".
Signature

Rob Bannister

Hatunen - 26 Feb 2007 00:11 GMT
>"tinwhistler" <ozziemaland@post.harvard.edu> wrote :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>Is this a pondial difference?  

Not really. Our semi-public AMTRAK rail system does not own any
trackage; the tracks are owned by our private rail corporations.
There is, though, a question of what the writer meant by "rail
line".

By rail line, do you mean the
>physical railway/railroad track, or the service?
>
>The rail line (i.e. track) is actually owned
>by Network Rail, a company largely or possibly wholly owned
>by the British government.

Their web site shows no indication that it is partly or wholly
owned by the government, nor is a crown corporation, although it
is government-regulated.

Signature

  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Numeromania - 26 Feb 2007 02:15 GMT
> Not really. Our semi-public AMTRAK rail system does not own any
> trackage; the tracks are owned by our private rail corporations.

Not true. According to the Wikipedia entry on the Northeast Corridor,
"Amtrak owns the track between Washington and New Rochelle, New York, a
northern suburb of New York City."
Hatunen - 26 Feb 2007 20:23 GMT
>> Not really. Our semi-public AMTRAK rail system does not own any
>> trackage; the tracks are owned by our private rail corporations.
>
>Not true. According to the Wikipedia entry on the Northeast Corridor,
>"Amtrak owns the track between Washington and New Rochelle, New York, a
>northern suburb of New York City."

A stand corrected. I believe Amtrak does own the Northeast
Corridor route. But it is a very small part of Amtrak.

Signature

  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Mike Page - 27 Feb 2007 20:29 GMT
>"tinwhistler" <ozziemaland@post.harvard.edu> wrote :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>by the British government. The train is/was owned by Branson's
>company, and the service was run by Branson's company.

Are you sure the train was owned by Virgin? Nearly all the
rolling stock is owned by train leasing companies and leased to
the operating companies. That way if a franchise is not renewed
the departing company can't hold the incomer to ransom over the
price of the trains.

--
Mike Page
Posting trivia to aue since April 1997
Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 22:15 GMT
>>"tinwhistler" <ozziemaland@post.harvard.edu> wrote :
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>the departing company can't hold the incomer to ransom over the
>price of the trains.

Quite.

A financial website carries a report of the accident:
http://www.advfn.com/news_Virgin-Trains-Pendolino-derailed-by-faulty-points-RAIB
_19557573.html


or http://tinyurl.com/2xqald

   ...
   The 11 mln stg Pendolino tilting train damaged in the accident
   is one of a 53-strong fleet built in Birmingham by French
   engineering group Alstom and owned by Royal Bank of Scotland
   Group PLC train leasing business Angel Trains.
   ...

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 22:50 GMT
>>>"tinwhistler" <ozziemaland@post.harvard.edu> wrote :
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>    Group PLC train leasing business Angel Trains.
>    ...
That reports also says:

   Virgin and Stagecoach Group PLC run the UK's West Coast and
   Cross Country rail franchises via Virgin Rail Group, in which
   they hold stakes of 51 pct and 49 pct respectively.

The silence of Brian Souter, chairman and co-founder of Stagecoach,
is deafening. He seems happy to let Branson be the frontman in
respect of the accident.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Paul Wolff - 27 Feb 2007 23:59 GMT
>On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:15:33 +0000, Peter Duncanson
><mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>is deafening. He seems happy to let Branson be the frontman in
>respect of the accident.

If something derailed *my* train, I'd wish to say as little as possible
in this blameworld until I knew what it was, and who, if anyone, was
responsible for it.  Not for nothing do insurers instruct motorists in
involved in accidents just to exchange the basic essential facts. Even
expressions of regret can be misconstrued.

He could have said "We are most upset, though perhaps not as upset as
the train was.  And as minority investors in the train operating
company, we shall instruct our Board to lift every finger, nay, strain
every sinew, to find out what the hell happened, and why; and then to
act appropriately, in accordance with good conscience and best
practice."  Not that this would have made one jot of practical
difference to anyone affected by the event.

Such talk is cheap, and worth less.  Better to not add to the noise.

["To not add" is the infinitive form of a verb that I cannot, at this
moment, pare down to fewer words.  "To fewer words" is the... etc.]
Signature

Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

Adrian Tuddenham - 28 Feb 2007 10:59 GMT
> http://www.advfn.com/news_Virgin-Trains-Pendolino-derailed-by-faulty-points-
>RAIB_19557573.html

The carriages  "...came to rest at varying angles".

I'm prepared to believe that they came to rest, but I doubt if they then
started revolving.

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~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

contrex - 25 Feb 2007 19:00 GMT
On 25 Feb, 18:28, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after
> which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

Where are you from? That sort of remark from idiots in the media is a
perennial joke on the uk.railway newsgroup. Usually someone on the BBC
makes them. The Bearded One made a few choice ones, praising the
train's driver for staying "at the controls" during the crash. Just
where you go while a derailed train doing 95 mph goes where it wants
I'm not sure.
Nick Spalding - 25 Feb 2007 21:46 GMT
contrex wrote, in <1172430052.880851.96390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
on 25 Feb 2007 11:00:52 -0800:

> On 25 Feb, 18:28, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> where you go while a derailed train doing 95 mph goes where it wants
> I'm not sure.

Or how 'staying at the controls' could achieve anything.
Signature

Nick Spalding

Skitt - 25 Feb 2007 21:55 GMT
>>> I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England,
>>> after which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Or how 'staying at the controls' could achieve anything.

It's not the staying at the controls, but the timely leaning right or left
that guides the train around obstacles.  You know -- like in bowling.

Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

irwell - 26 Feb 2007 00:01 GMT
>contrex wrote, in <1172430052.880851.96390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
> on 25 Feb 2007 11:00:52 -0800:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Or how 'staying at the controls' could achieve anything.

Somebody has to hold the Dead Man's Handle.
John Dean - 27 Feb 2007 00:14 GMT
>> contrex wrote, in
>> <1172430052.880851.96390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> on 25 Feb
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Somebody has to hold the Dead Man's Handle.

That's only when you want the train to run. At the point at which it leaves
the tracks, you want it to stop. Therefore relinquish the DMH (if there is
such a thing on the Pendolino).
Branson's considered view (as opposed to the stumbling and repetitive speech
he gave on the scene) is at
http://www.virgintrainsmediaroom.com/index.cfm?articleid=1005

"The driver did an amazing job," said Sir Richard at the site of the
accident on Saturday 24 February. "He stayed in his seat for a quarter of a
mile to control the train as it came off the rails, and didn't try to
protect himself by running back into the coach behind."

Still no clarification of how this "control" was exercised nor why it was
good for the driver not to protect himself. I'd have thought the more able
bodied souls available to assist the injured when the train came to a halt
the better.
Signature

John Dean
Oxford

the Omrud - 27 Feb 2007 08:24 GMT
john-dean@fraglineone.net had it:

> > Somebody has to hold the Dead Man's Handle.
>
> That's only when you want the train to run. At the point at which it leaves
> the tracks, you want it to stop. Therefore relinquish the DMH (if there is
> such a thing on the Pendolino).

I think modern trains have a pedal.

Signature

David
=====

Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 11:10 GMT
>john-dean@fraglineone.net had it:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>I think modern trains have a pedal.

Where "modern" began decades ago.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 12:29 GMT
>>john-dean@fraglineone.net had it:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Where "modern" began decades ago.

There is a website that says that the dead man's pedal was invented
prior to 1918 for use on a particular design of steam locomotive in
use in New Jersey.
http://www.fineartmodels.com/pages/product.asp?content_area=3&sub_area=10&produc
t_area=43


   Jersey Central T-38 Camelback 4-6-0
   ...
   One of the most unusual steam locomotive designs, as well as one
   of the most familiar despite the fact that none were built after
   World War I, originated as a solution to an interesting
   technical problem: the Camelback.
   
   In the mid-19th century, coal-mining practices were much less
   efficient than they are today.  Some 20 percent of
   Pennsylvania's total anthracite output was regarded as waste too
   fine for general use, in light of its high shale content.  While
   this culm could be used for heating buildings and other
   forgiving applications, it lacked the high heat content needed
   to power the locomotives of the day.  John Wootten, later
   general manager of the Philadelphia & Reading, saw that such
   fuel might prove practical if burned on a sufficiently large
   grate.  In 1877, the first locomotive with a wide Wootten
   firebox was completed.  Six years later, 170 more such
   locomotives were in service.  Together they saved the railroad
   almost $400,000 on its annual coal bill.
   
   The Wootten firebox was so big that it left little room at the
   rear of the locomotive for a conventional cab.  The solution was
   to arrange a separate cab for the engineer astride the boiler,
   with a smaller deck for the fireman remaining in the traditional
   position between the firebox and tender.  However, this
   camelback design, also known as the Mother Hubbard, had
   drawbacks. Their engineers worked in a hot, cramped environment
   - so hot and so cramped, that even in winter, they preferred to
   sit on the window sill.  Some even fell out, which led to the
   invention of the dead man's pedal.  Even when they stayed put,
   engineers could be exposed to steam leaks and broken side rods
   and had no easy escape route in an emergency.  In 1918, the
   Interstate Commerce Commission banned further construction of
   Camelbacks.
   ...

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

tinwhistler - 27 Feb 2007 16:58 GMT
[snip]
>     and had no easy escape route in an emergency.  In 1918, the
>     Interstate Commerce Commission banned further construction of
>     Camelbacks.
[snip]

I can hear a farker snicker, "Yeah, but if you're lucky you can still
see a camel toe."

Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Hatunen - 27 Feb 2007 16:49 GMT
>>> Or how 'staying at the controls' could achieve anything.
>>
>> Somebody has to hold the Dead Man's Handle.
>
>That's only when you want the train to run. At the point at which it leaves
>the tracks, you want it to stop.

I think it was meant as a joke. At least I took it as such.

Signature

  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Robert Bannister - 27 Feb 2007 22:48 GMT
>>>contrex wrote, in
>>><1172430052.880851.96390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> on 25 Feb
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> bodied souls available to assist the injured when the train came to a halt
> the better.

I assumed some sort of controlled braking. I was thinking of the
derailment as being a bit like a car skidding. What actually happened,
we'll probably never know.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 23:25 GMT
>>> contrex wrote, in
>>> <1172430052.880851.96390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> on 25 Feb
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>bodied souls available to assist the injured when the train came to a halt
>the better.

I would guess that the driver decided to slow the train by cutting
the power and applying the brakes. Note that the brakes operate on
wheels all along the train, so there would be some normal braking
effect as long as at least part of the train was on the track. I
have no idea whether braking would have any effect, good or bad, for
derailed wheels running on the ballast and across the sleepers (AmE:
ties).

It is perfectly possible that it did not enter the driver's head to
leave his cab. Drivers are presumably not accustomed to leaving the
controls while the train is in motion.

Regarding the "dead man's handle/pedal/button" or Driver's Vigilance
Device as it known generically: I believe that when released this
cuts the power and applies the brakes. It appears that a time delay
of a few seconds is normal.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

M. J. Powell - 25 Feb 2007 19:42 GMT
>I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after
>which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio,
>which earlier today said the driver had been "praised for trying to
>steer the train to safety".

I heard one reporter ask an expert what 'points' were.

Mike
Signature

M.J.Powell

Paul Wolff - 25 Feb 2007 23:00 GMT
>In message <45e1c8b0$0$16391$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>, Mike Lyle
><mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>I heard one reporter ask an expert what 'points' were.

In this context, the starting position for a grand jeté.  Also known as
a saut de chat, a sort of cat.
Signature

Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

Mike Lyle - 25 Feb 2007 23:28 GMT
>> In message <45e1c8b0$0$16391
[...]
>> I heard one reporter ask an expert what 'points' were.
>>
> In this context, the starting position for a grand jeté.  Also known
> as a saut de chat, a sort of cat.

Colloquially known (cf "throw a punch", "kick up a fuss", etc) as
"swinging a cat". Impoverished ballet students find it notoriously hard
to get digs big enough for their practice: hence the well-known
expression for diminutive apartments.

Signature

Mike.

--
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Robert Bannister - 26 Feb 2007 00:04 GMT
>>> I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after
>>> which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> In this context, the starting position for a grand jeté.  Also known as
> a saut de chat, a sort of cat.

In my crossword puzzle, it always means the letters E, N, S or W.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Garrett Wollman - 26 Feb 2007 03:30 GMT
>I heard one reporter ask an expert what 'points' were.

An American reporter probably would have to ask (for the benefit of
his audience if not for himself).  We have switches here, not points.
(However, in the jargon, they do talk about "leading-point" and
"trailing-point" switches, and an expert here would understand the
en_GB terminology.)  Switches are a subclass of "special work" (also
jargon).

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Mike Lyle - 26 Feb 2007 12:47 GMT
> In article <0qL2GbAqae4FF...@pickmere.demon.co.uk>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> en_GB terminology.) Switches are a subclass of "special work" (also
> jargon).

I feel sure I once read, or was told, that real techie British railway
language makes a distinction between "points" and "switches". Does
this "leading-point" and "trailing-point" have something to do with
that?

--
Mike.
contrex - 26 Feb 2007 19:58 GMT
> I feel sure I once read, or was told, that real techie British railway
> language makes a distinction between "points" and "switches". Does
> this "leading-point" and "trailing-point" have something to do with
> that?

In the UK a "switch" is one of a pair of linked tapering rails that
can be moved laterally to cause a train to pass from one line to the
other. The whole set of rails making up such a junction being commonly
referred to as points. Americans commonly call the whole thing a
switch.

The same set of points could be facing or trailing depending on the
direction of travel. Points which allow a train to change lines
without reversing the direction of travel are known as facing points.
If a train would have to reverse to change lines, they would be
described as trailing points.

UK - facing points
US - facing point switch

That type of trackwork is often generically called "special trackwork"
or "point and crossing work" in the US. Perversely, the UK equivalent
is "switch and crossing work".
Peter Duncanson - 26 Feb 2007 21:10 GMT
>> I feel sure I once read, or was told, that real techie British railway
>> language makes a distinction between "points" and "switches". Does
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>or "point and crossing work" in the US. Perversely, the UK equivalent
>is "switch and crossing work".

There is a song about points. It was the theme tune of the BBC TV
pop music show "Six Five Special" (1957).
http://www.whirligig-tv.co.uk/tv/adults/rocknroll/sixfivespecial.htm

   Over the points, over the points, over the points,
   over the points.
   
   The 6.5 Special's steamin' down the line,
   The 6.5 Special's right on time.
   Coal in the boiler burnin' up'n bright,
   Rollin' and a-rockin' through the night,
   My heart's a-beatin' 'cos I'll be meetin'
   The 6.5. Special at the station tonight.
   
   The 6.5 Special better not be late,
   The 6.5 Special platform 8,
   The train starts a-brakin' hard as can be,
   The station is a-shakin' like a tree'
   And I won't be missin' that special kissin'
   When the 6.5 Special brings my baby to me.
   
   Hear the whistle blowin' 12 to the bar.
   See the lights a-glowin' bright as a star.
   Now the wheels a-slowin', can't be far.
   ...more    

Full lyrics:
http://www.whirligig-tv.co.uk/tv/adults/rocknroll/sixfive.htm

In glorious ancient audio:
http://www.whirligig-tv.co.uk/tv/adults/rocknroll/sixfivespecial.wav

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

contrex - 26 Feb 2007 21:22 GMT
> There is a song about points. It was the theme tune of the BBC TV
> pop music show "Six Five Special" (1957)

I remember it well. We had just got a TV. I was 5 years old. Another
series around that time was "The old Pull and Push" set on a Kent or
Sussex branch line. The theme tune was a song in the "skiffle" style,
sung in a faux-American accent, and it sounded like the guy was
singing "The Old Bull and Bush", which is another song altogether. I
have always been interested in railways.

I forgot to mention that just as the American "special trackwork" is
shortened by those in the business to "special work", so the UK
"switch and crossing work" is shortened to "S and C" or even "S&C" in
writing. A driver won't say "There are lots of points outside
Waterloo", he or she would most likely say "there is plenty of S and
C" there.
Garrett Wollman - 26 Feb 2007 22:27 GMT
>I forgot to mention that just as the American "special trackwork" is
>shortened by those in the business to "special work",

"Special work" is more general, as it also includes the power system,
not just track.  While most electrified mainline railways use
catenary, special work in the overhead is necessary for lines that
still use trolley wire (primarily urban transit systems).  Trolleybuses
actually require physical switches up there (since the two wires have
to cross each other somehow).

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Adrian Tuddenham - 27 Feb 2007 08:51 GMT
> >I forgot to mention that just as the American "special trackwork" is
> >shortened by those in the business to "special work",
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> actually require physical switches up there (since the two wires have
> to cross each other somehow).

In tramway parlance, that is called OHLE (OverHead Line Equipment).
The term "special work" only refers to trackwork.

I thought that was also the case with railways.

Signature

~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

contrex - 27 Feb 2007 10:35 GMT
On 27 Feb, 08:51, poppy...@ukonline.invalid.invalid (Adrian Tuddenham)
wrote:

> > "Special work" is more general, as it also includes the power system,
> > not just track.  While most electrified mainline railways use
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> In tramway parlance, that is called OHLE (OverHead Line Equipment).
> The term "special work" only refers to trackwork.

> I thought that was also the case with railways.

He's talking about US usage. In the UK we have OHLE (and "juice rails"
darn sarf).

The point (sorry!) about trolley bus OHLE switches reminds me of the
ones I noted in Croydon as a kid. They were electrically actuated.
(and called "frogs".) Shortly before a point where the trolleybus had
a choice of routes, the overhead wire would have an insulated joint,
so that the section immediately before the OHLE switch was fed
separately. The current being drawn was sensed. If the driver desired
to take the turnout, he drew power. If not, he coasted. A board on a
pole read "Take power to turn - coast for straight on" or something
like that.

Once the trolleybus had cleared the junction, detected by a similar
method, the frog would return to the straight ahead position.

There is a weird arrangement in Melbourne, Australia where 650v trams
cross a 1500v railway at grade in four places. An elaborate
arrangement of wires called an "overhead square" is rigged up over the
crossings, and switching ensures that the trains and trams get the
right voltage. I wonder if a fault eg a stuck contactor has ever
resulted in a tram getting more juice than it bargained for?
Mark Brader - 27 Feb 2007 06:22 GMT
Mike Harvey:
> In the UK a "switch" is one of a pair of linked tapering rails that
> can be moved laterally to cause a train to pass from one line to the
> other. The whole set of rails making up such a junction being commonly
> referred to as points. Americans commonly call the whole thing a
> switch.

And each of the individual moving rails is a "point" or "switchpoint".

I see that this British use of "switch" exists, because it occurs in
the official preliminary report on the accident.  But I have rarely
or never encountered it before.  In my experience the usual British
term has been "blade" or "point blade".

> The same set of points could be facing or trailing depending on the
> direction of travel.

Yes.

> Points which allow a train to change lines without reversing the
> direction of travel are known as facing points.  If a train would
> have to reverse to change lines, they would be described as trailing
> points.

"Change lines" could have all sorts of meanings.  A simpler way to put
it is: "facing" means that the tracks are diverging, "trailing" that
they are converging.  Typically these terms relate implicitly to the
normal direction of travel on a particular track.
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Mike Lyle - 27 Feb 2007 18:34 GMT
> Mike Harvey:
>> In the UK a "switch" is one of a pair of linked tapering rails that
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> they are converging.  Typically these terms relate implicitly to the
> normal direction of travel on a particular track.

For completeness, I'll mention that BR trains were not generally allowed
by Board of Trade Regulations to go over points the "wrong way". I don't
know how it is with modern metals. On the branch line I knew, the Exe
Valley Line, when trains (14xx auto-tanker sets or pannier tankers whose
numbers I forget) had to change from the up to the down platform, any
passengers were required to dismount.

(As it was a former GWR line, any movement was, of course, preceded by a
whistle: I've only quite recently twigged that drivers no longer give a
warning before moving off.)

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Jonathan Morton - 26 Feb 2007 23:13 GMT
>>I heard one reporter ask an expert what 'points' were.
>
> An American reporter probably would have to ask (for the benefit of
> his audience if not for himself).  We have switches here, not points.

We have both here - though "switches" tends to be technical - "switch and
crossing" work and so on.

> (However, in the jargon, they do talk about "leading-point" and
> "trailing-point" switches, and an expert here would understand the
> en_GB terminology.)  Switches are a subclass of "special work" (also
> jargon).

Points in the UK are either "facing" or "trailing" - both expressions should
be intelligible, even to a journalist.

And I've only come here tonight to escape the nonsense on this very subject
in uk.railway.

Regards

Jonathan
Peter Duncanson - 26 Feb 2007 12:14 GMT
>I don't make light of last night's derailment in northern England, after
>which at least one person has died. But I am prepared to mock the radio,
>which earlier today said the driver had been "praised for trying to
>steer the train to safety".

Other news reporting oddities on the night of the derailment, mainly
from Sky News:

1.  The crash happened in a very remote area. There was only a
   narrow lane to the location with no room for large vehicles to
   pass one another.

The accident happened about 4 miles from the town of Kendal (pop.
approx. 30,000). There are main roads within 5 miles, including the
M6.
http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?lat=54.3577&lon=-2.6624&scale=100000&icon=x

The location is not "remote" by any reasonable interpretation of
that word. The fact that there are roads and lanes very close to the
location also severely undermines any notion of remoteness.

2.  The train was derailed and fell into a ditch (!).

It is a hilly area with lots of local ups and downs. The track runs
through and over cuttings, embankments, viaducts and bridges.
The train came off the track and more than half of it slid and
rolled down an embankment.

3.  The Sky News presenters and editors appeared to have struggled
   to find an inclusive word for the personnel of the fire and
   rescue service, ambulance service, one possibly two mountain
   rescue teams, helicopter crews, etc. who were working on site.
   They called them "operators".

Most people would have chosen "rescuers".

Sadly the amateurishness of the reporting is yet another indication
of the abyssmal lack of general knowledge of those in TV news
studios. It becomes apparent almost every time they have have to
deal with live events.

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(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Moylan - 26 Feb 2007 23:54 GMT
> Other news reporting oddities on the night of the derailment, mainly
> from Sky News:
>
> 1.  The crash happened in a very remote area. There was only a narrow
> lane to the location with no room for large vehicles to pass one
> another.

There are some NSW reporters (and, I suspect, most of the NSW
government) for whom "rural" means "anywhere outside Sydney". Do you
likewise have a group for whom "remote" means "not in London"?

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Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 10:55 GMT
>> Other news reporting oddities on the night of the derailment, mainly
>> from Sky News:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>government) for whom "rural" means "anywhere outside Sydney". Do you
>likewise have a group for whom "remote" means "not in London"?

Yes, indeed.

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Philip Eden - 27 Feb 2007 12:45 GMT
"Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote :

>>> Other news reporting oddities on the night of the derailment, mainly
>>> from Sky News:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Yes, indeed.

I noticed one report last night describing the site, which had
clearly been accessed by countless officials, celebrity rail company
owners, journalists and others, as "inaccessible". What he meant,
I suppose, is that it was "not easily accessible to heavy lifting
equipment given the present waterlogged conditions of the fields."

Philip Eden
Peter Duncanson - 27 Feb 2007 17:02 GMT
>"Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote :
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>I suppose, is that it was "not easily accessible to heavy lifting
>equipment given the present waterlogged conditions of the fields."

Yes.

I must confess that the day after the crash while watching the
almost continuous coverage on Sky News and BBC News 24 I was waiting
for some intrepid reporter to ask an official whether the train's
coaches/carriages/cars could be lifted by helicopter.

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R H Draney - 27 Feb 2007 20:21 GMT
Peter Duncanson filted:

>I must confess that the day after the crash while watching the
>almost continuous coverage on Sky News and BBC News 24 I was waiting
>for some intrepid reporter to ask an official whether the train's
>coaches/carriages/cars could be lifted by helicopter.

Shame it's the wrong part of the country for a latter-day Merlin to levitate
them off the crash site....r

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John Dean - 28 Feb 2007 00:51 GMT
>> "Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote :
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> for some intrepid reporter to ask an official whether the train's
> coaches/carriages/cars could be lifted by helicopter.

Would have been more interesting if they'd asked about the heavy-lifting
cranes sited on flat cars which British Rail used to maintain and which
could be brought right up the scene of a crash by, er, rail.  Very expensive
to keep fettled for the rare occasions they were needed. Obviously a prime
target for economies. How could you make a profit if you had to keep heavy
machinery in good enough shape to be at the scene of a crash within a few
hours and maybe save a few lives by lifting away wreckage?
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Oxford

Mike Lyle - 28 Feb 2007 14:02 GMT
[...]
> Would have been more interesting if they'd asked about the heavy-lifting
> cranes sited on flat cars which British Rail used to maintain and which
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> machinery in good enough shape to be at the scene of a crash within a few
> hours and maybe save a few lives by lifting away wreckage?

That's just the politics of envy. Next you'll be saying the companies'
dividends should be related to how well they run a railway.

Youngest and I once found a huge red trailer parked in a lay-by on the
A40. We clambered over it with relish, and counted all 96 wheels with
awe: it was what they use to shift railway engines by road. (Huh?) I
don't even know if there's more than one of them in Europe: somebody
(perhaps wrongly) later told me it had to be fetched from France.

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Peter Duncanson - 28 Feb 2007 14:43 GMT
>> I must confess that the day after the crash while watching the
>> almost continuous coverage on Sky News and BBC News 24 I was waiting
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>machinery in good enough shape to be at the scene of a crash within a few
>hours and maybe save a few lives by lifting away wreckage?

I understand your point. However it is likely that such cranes still
exist.[1] If they do they could potentially be used for "rerailing"
the last three carriages of the Virgin train. The other carriages
look to be in positions that are well outside the reach of
track-mounted cranes. The responsibility for the engineering aspects
of the rescue would have been with the Fire and Rescue Service. If
track-mounted heavy-lifting cranes ahd been needed they wouled have
been called for. If they chad been called for but did not exist I
think the story would have got out.

The interim report of the Rail Accident Investigation Branch is at:
http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources/070226_I012007_Grayrigg.pdf

This includes a "Diagram of switch and stock rails and stretcher
bar", and a "Photograph of derailed train with carriages numbered".

[1] Derailments do happen from time to time and locomotives,
carriages and wagons do need to be rerailed. There must be cranes
available to do this. The RAIB has nearly 40 investigations in hand
at the moment. The largest single category is derailment -- 17 in
total.

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Peter Duncanson - 28 Feb 2007 15:14 GMT
>>> I must confess that the day after the crash while watching the
>>> almost continuous coverage on Sky News and BBC News 24 I was waiting
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>at the moment. The largest single category is derailment -- 17 in
>total.

I've found the House of Lords debate on "Railway Safety" following
the Ladbroke Grove train crash (in which the visibility of a signal
was a central issue). The availability of heavy lifting gear was
raised (no pun intended):

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199899/ldhansrd/vo991011/text/91011-05.htm
[Foot of this page and top of the next]

   11 Oct 1999
   Lord Methuen:  My Lords, the issue is of particular
   significance to me. I was a railway signal engineer and I am
   still a member of the Institution of Railway Signal Engineers,
   the professional body to which most of these people belong. I
   know that they will be deeply distressed by what has happened
   at Paddington.
   ...
   Can the Minister comment on the issue--it has not yet been
   raised--of the absence of rail-mounted heavy lifting gear which
   could have given more rapid assistance? I understand that the
   crane had to be brought by road from Carlisle. In the old days
   of British Rail such heavy rail-mounted equipment would have
   been at the local depots and available within four hours or so.

   [The Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport
   and the Regions] Lord Macdonald of Tradeston:  My Lords, the
   availability of the heavy lifting gear has not been raised as
   yet with me, but I shall take account of what the noble Lord
   said.

So it seems that even in Ye Olden Days rail-mounted heavy lifting
gear would not have been available very quickly.

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John Dean - 28 Feb 2007 18:46 GMT
>>>> I must confess that the day after the crash while watching the
>>>> almost continuous coverage on Sky News and BBC News 24 I was
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> So it seems that even in Ye Olden Days rail-mounted heavy lifting
> gear would not have been available very quickly.

Available within four hours? I think that's pretty good. I believe we're
still waiting for it to arrive at Oxenholme.
Signature

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Oxford

athel...@yahoo - 27 Feb 2007 16:00 GMT
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:54:41 +1100, Peter Moylan
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Yes, indeed.

In the days around 30 years ago when the motorway network in the UK
was a lot more rudimentary than it is now this London-centric attitude
was obvious in the numbering of the M1, M5 and M6: to an unbiassed eye
these formed a pattern like an H, with a western road that went (with
gaps) from Exeter to Manchester, an eastern road that went from London
to Leeds, and a third that connected the two. However, that wasn't the
way it looked to the chaps in London, with the result that the western
limb suffers an arbitrary change in name from M5 to M6 at a
nondescript place between Birmingham and Wolverhampton. Despite the
fact that I knew this perfectly well when I lived in Birmingham, I
found it sufficiently confusing that on one occasion instead of
continuing straight along the M5 when the M6 changed into it I found
myself heading off towards Coventry.

athel
Nick Atty - 27 Feb 2007 20:04 GMT
>> Other news reporting oddities on the night of the derailment, mainly
>> from Sky News:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>government) for whom "rural" means "anywhere outside Sydney". Do you
>likewise have a group for whom "remote" means "not in London"?

We've got two.  Ones the BBC and the other is the Government.

If a major political even happens outside the M25 we get a report from
"our north of England corespondent" and a map showing us where
Birmingham is.  If someone gets a sore toe in a London park we get a
live report from the "Sore toes in parks correspondent" and are all
assumed to know exactly where Victoria Park is.
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Nick Atty - 28 Feb 2007 00:11 GMT
>We've got two.  Ones the BBC and the other is the Government.

"one's" - that key doesn't seem to work reliably.

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