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Peter Moylan - 19 Jun 2007 05:59 GMT
Further news about the Newcastle floods. In a news report about damage
sustained in one shopping street, we heard "... and in the hairdressing
salon across the street, five electric chairs, costing thousands of
dollars each, were destroyed."

Shocking!

Over a week after the big storms, some roads are still closed because of
flooding. The rain has, it appears, set in for forty days and a similar
number of nights. A major storm is forecast for tonight. This time, the
ship captains will probably heed the warnings to move further out to sea.

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Peter Moylan                             http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Toby A Inkster - 19 Jun 2007 09:17 GMT
> The rain has, it appears, set in for forty days and a similar
> number of nights. A major storm is forecast for tonight.

You Australians! ;-)

Honestly, you complain when there's a drought; you complain when there's a
flood; will you *never* be satisfied?!

How far inland does the current storm extend? Enough to replenish the MDB?

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Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS

                            dict, thes & ency
         http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/06/18/dict-thes-ency/

Stuart Chapman - 19 Jun 2007 10:02 GMT
>> The rain has, it appears, set in for forty days and a similar
>> number of nights. A major storm is forecast for tonight.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Honestly, you complain when there's a drought; you complain when there's a
> flood; will you *never* be satisfied?!

It's a sunburnt country, you know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Country

> How far inland does the current storm extend? Enough to replenish the MDB?

No. These storm systems have been floating around over the coast of New
South Wales, and little, if any, rain will make it over the Great
Dividing Range. No single weather event will return the Murray - Darling
to anything like its normal flow. Instead, it will take one or two years
of above average rainfall, which, according to the meteorologists is
possible as the El Nino cycle appears to have ended.

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Stupot           http://insignity.blogspot.com

Toby A Inkster - 19 Jun 2007 12:14 GMT
> Instead, it will take one or two years of above average rainfall, which,
> according to the meteorologists is possible as the El Nino cycle appears
> to have ended.

In almost 50% of years we experience above average rainfall.

(Assuming "average"="median".)

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Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS

                            dict, thes & ency
         http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/06/18/dict-thes-ency/

Garrett Wollman - 20 Jun 2007 02:36 GMT
>In almost 50% of years we experience above average rainfall.
>
>(Assuming "average"="median".)

Warning!  Abuse of statistics alert!

Your statement is true only in a very limited (and for practical
purposes useless) sense.  Yes, among the N years sampled, very close
to half of them experienced rainfall greater than the median, with the
difference involved in "very close" limited to those years where
exactly the median value was observed.  However, that may not be true,
of those exact same years, with respect to the median of N+k samples
(k <> 0), for obvious reasons.

-GAWollman

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Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Robert Bannister - 20 Jun 2007 02:51 GMT
>>Instead, it will take one or two years of above average rainfall, which,
>>according to the meteorologists is possible as the El Nino cycle appears
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> (Assuming "average"="median".)

As far as I can work out, "average" rainfall is the average taken since
weather recording began. Therefore, over the last 10-20 years, most
rainfall is below average. Your 50% happened before most of us were born.

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Rob Bannister

Richard Bollard - 20 Jun 2007 03:44 GMT
>> The rain has, it appears, set in for forty days and a similar
>> number of nights. A major storm is forecast for tonight.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Honestly, you complain when there's a drought; you complain when there's a
>flood; will you *never* be satisfied?!

Toby, meet Hanrahan.

http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/obrienj/poetry/hanrahan.html
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Al in Dallas - 22 Jun 2007 01:56 GMT
>Further news about the Newcastle floods. In a news report about damage
>sustained in one shopping street, we heard "... and in the hairdressing
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>number of nights. A major storm is forecast for tonight. This time, the
>ship captains will probably heed the warnings to move further out to sea.

Hmmm, we have downtowns, but I doubt that we have shopping streets.

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Al in St. Lou

tony cooper - 22 Jun 2007 02:27 GMT
>>Further news about the Newcastle floods. In a news report about damage
>>sustained in one shopping street, we heard "... and in the hairdressing
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Hmmm, we have downtowns, but I doubt that we have shopping streets.

We do in this area.  A "shopping street" is a street where vehicular
traffic is banned for a few blocks.  It's quite common in an older
area to block off vehicular traffic and allow shoppers to cross the
street without worrying about waiting for traffic to clear or to go to
an intersection.  A "shopping street" is sometimes called a "walking
street".

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Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Al in Dallas - 22 Jun 2007 05:07 GMT
>>>Further news about the Newcastle floods. In a news report about damage
>>>sustained in one shopping street, we heard "... and in the hairdressing
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>an intersection.  A "shopping street" is sometimes called a "walking
>street".

Well, that's what it means to you, but is that what Peter meant? The
only time I was in the French Quarter, there was a time in the evening
where the cops put cement columns up to block vehicles from Bourbon
Street. My bride wore a long t-shirt as a dress and didn't look out of
place. We had to step over some folks passed out on the sidewalk, and
we were a bit taken aback by the couple pushing strollers in that
environment. Laissez le bon temps roullez !

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Al in St. Lou

the Omrud - 22 Jun 2007 15:30 GMT
alfargnoli@yahoo.com had it ...

> Well, that's what it means to you, but is that what Peter meant? The
> only time I was in the French Quarter, there was a time in the evening
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> we were a bit taken aback by the couple pushing strollers in that
> environment. Laissez le bon temps roullez !

I don't believe this is ideomatic French, but: "les" (plural temps)
and "rouler" (second verb and therefore imperative).

And it sounds better to me as "Laissez rouler les bon temps".

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David
=====

Hatunen - 22 Jun 2007 17:46 GMT
>alfargnoli@yahoo.com had it ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>And it sounds better to me as "Laissez rouler les bon temps".

It's not French; it's Cajun. But it's "Laissez les bons temps
rouler!" so it's pretty much the same.

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  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

John Kane - 22 Jun 2007 18:19 GMT
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:30:52 GMT, the Omrud
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> It's not French; it's Cajun. But it's "Laissez les bons temps
> rouler!" so it's pretty much the same.

One hears it in Canada too.

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada
Al in Dallas - 23 Jun 2007 06:06 GMT
>>alfargnoli@yahoo.com had it ...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>It's not French; it's Cajun. But it's "Laissez les bons temps
>rouler!" so it's pretty much the same.

I copied it off a web site. I guess I picked the wrong site.

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Al in St. Lou

Lanarcam - 22 Jun 2007 17:47 GMT
the Omrud a écrit :
> alfargnoli@yahoo.com had it ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> And it sounds better to me as "Laissez rouler les bon temps".

"Laissez les bons temps roulez" is not grammatical,
but it is close enough to the cajun expression
"Laissez les bons temps rouler"

<http://www.csdgs.qc.ca/ClotildeRaymond/Louisiana/GoodTime.htm>

"Pourquoi sont-ils aussi joyeux? C'est qu'ils se disent qu'il
faut «laisser les bons temps rouler», c'est-à-dire qu'ils
aiment prendre leur temps pour bien profiter de la vie."
Peter Moylan - 22 Jun 2007 07:17 GMT
>>> Further news about the Newcastle floods. In a news report about
>>> damage sustained in one shopping street, we heard "... and in the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>
>> Hmmm, we have downtowns, but I doubt that we have shopping streets.

I struggled hard to find the right term. "Shopping street" is not
precisely pure Australian, but it sounded like a term that would be
understood cross-culturally. A more typical Australian statement would
be something like "I'm just going down to the Lambton shops." (I now
live in Lambton, and the Lambton shops do happen to be concentrated in a
single street; the same is true in many suburbs and the smaller towns.
"Downtown" is not Australian at all, although we all understand it
because of the influence of songs (one song?) and other cultural
imports. The bigger towns have something called a CBD (Central Business
District) that will stretch over several - many, for the cities -
blocks. On top of that we, like nearly everyone, have big shopping
complexes where one's main activity is trying to find a parking spot.

> We do in this area.  A "shopping street" is a street where vehicular
> traffic is banned for a few blocks.  It's quite common in an older
> area to block off vehicular traffic and allow shoppers to cross the
> street without worrying about waiting for traffic to clear or to go
> to an intersection.  A "shopping street" is sometimes called a
> "walking street".

Newcastle has that too, and it's called a "mall"; but this year there's
been a lot of talk about opening it up to traffic. A few other towns in
Australia have already done this, and have experienced a reduction in
crime as a result. There's a growing feeling that the pedestrian mall
was an experiment that failed.

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Peter Moylan                             http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Peter Duncanson - 22 Jun 2007 14:09 GMT
>I now
>live in Lambton

Interesting. Way back when, my grandparents, my father and his
brothers lived in Queen's Road, New Lambton. They lived there twice,
with a gap while they lived with Dad's maternal grandmother in
Merewether, so that Dad's Mum could care for her Mum.

Dad wrote:

   Dad bought another house in New Lambton, also in Queen's Road
   but, where the first one was at the bottom of the gently sloping
   hill, the second was almost at the top where the last part of
   the road - about six houses - rose very steeply!

   There was only one house between us and an extensive area of
   bush, between 1 and 2 square miles in area:  while at the back
   of us and sloping away, were fields.

I see that the area of bush has been somewhat tamed and now has
marked trails and walks, and a picnic area.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Moylan - 22 Jun 2007 15:33 GMT
>> I now live in Lambton
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> I see that the area of bush has been somewhat tamed and now has
> marked trails and walks, and a picnic area.

There's an enormous social distance between the top and bottom of
Queen's Road. I once lived a block away from the bottom, in Fleet
Street, and it counted as a so-so area of suburbia. When you get to the
top of Queen's Road, you're in a location that only the wealthy can
afford. This is partly because of the height. Living on a hill is
greatly valued in Newcastle, because it gets you the summer breezes and
possibly some good views. But that particular location is even more
valued because of the area of bush you mention. It's a large area of
only partially tamed bush - it's deliberately not made too park-like -
right in the middle of the inner suburbs. There are a couple of tamed
areas where people like to go for a weekend picnic, or to look at the
animals in the small zoo, but once you get onto some of the walking
trails you can forget that you're in the middle of a city.

While looking at on-line maps to remind myself of where Queen's Road is,
I noticed that Google Maps still shows my car parked outside my old address.

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Peter Moylan                             http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Peter Duncanson - 22 Jun 2007 17:15 GMT
>>> I now live in Lambton
>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>animals in the small zoo, but once you get onto some of the walking
>trails you can forget that you're in the middle of a city.

That's good.

The area called Blackbutt used to be an isolated area in the bush. I
understand it has been developed into what Dad called a "a pleasure
resort".

Dad recalled an occasion he and his cousin Fred were playing at
Blackbutt.

   ...we were swinging on lianas (monkey ropes) across a pool when
   he lost his grip and fell in.  We lit a fire to dry his socks
   and when later he went to put them on, they just fell to pieces.

The socks were presumably woolen.

The social distance between the top and bottom of Queen's Road must
have developed since my Dad's time there. Grandad worked all his
life in the offices of Paul & Gray, Ship Chandler. He earned enough
to buy a house, but he was certainly not well-off.

Dad started going to primary school when living in Queen's Road the
first time, and was still at PS when they moved back there. He was
born in 1907.

>While looking at on-line maps to remind myself of where Queen's Road is,
>I noticed that Google Maps still shows my car parked outside my old address.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Moylan - 23 Jun 2007 13:56 GMT
> The social distance between the top and bottom of Queen's Road must
> have developed since my Dad's time there. Grandad worked all his life
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> first time, and was still at PS when they moved back there. He was
> born in 1907.

Both New Lambton and the posher part known as New Lambton Heights
qualify today as inner suburbs, but in the early 1900s they might well
have been considered as being out in the sticks. There were probably no
trams in that direction. (It's hard to tell; all evidence of the former
tram system has now disappeared.) Access would be tricky; you'd need
more than one horse to pull a cart up the steep part of Queens Road. It
might have been a long walk to get to any civilised area.

One often hears stories, here and elsewhere, of older people forced to
move out of a posh area because they can't afford the land taxes. They
bought the land when it was cheap, and later the wealthy people moved in
around them and changed the nature of the area. That's particularly so
in places that used to be on the fringes of a city.

My own grandfather was born in 1890, the son of poor immigrants, in
North Melbourne. At that time North Melbourne would have been on the
outer fringes of Melbourne. By the time I moved to Melbourne (1965),
North Melbourne was an inner-city slum. These days, I gather, it's home
to the very rich.

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Peter Moylan                             http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Richard Bollard - 25 Jun 2007 03:55 GMT
[...]

>My own grandfather was born in 1890, the son of poor immigrants, in
>North Melbourne. At that time North Melbourne would have been on the
>outer fringes of Melbourne. By the time I moved to Melbourne (1965),
>North Melbourne was an inner-city slum. These days, I gather, it's home
>to the very rich.

Not the housing commission towers.
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Robert Bannister - 23 Jun 2007 00:36 GMT
> Newcastle has that too, and it's called a "mall"; but this year there's
> been a lot of talk about opening it up to traffic. A few other towns in
> Australia have already done this, and have experienced a reduction in
> crime as a result. There's a growing feeling that the pedestrian mall
> was an experiment that failed.

Any evidence for that? Maybe it's a purely local thing; I hadn't noticed
any opposition to the couple of pedestrian-only streets in Perth.

I was going to explain that these 2 streets are linked by "arcades", but
I knew this would not be understood overseas and I wondered whether it
is an Australia-wide term or just used in Perth and Adelaide.

For overseas readers, an "arcade" is (usually) a bit like an alleyway
with shops either side, but normally covered in. Some have 2 or 3 levels
- in particular the ones that link Murray and Hay Streets in Perth,
where one street is a level higher than the other. I imagine some of
these started life as a service alleyway between two large shops, but
since then, many have been purpose-built. A few are below street-level
and in some places link to an underground carpark.
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Rob Bannister

Nick Spalding - 23 Jun 2007 10:54 GMT
Robert Bannister wrote, in <5e34r6F3641pbU1@mid.individual.net>
on Sat, 23 Jun 2007 07:36:14 +0800:

> I was going to explain that these 2 streets are linked by "arcades", but
> I knew this would not be understood overseas and I wondered whether it
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> since then, many have been purpose-built. A few are below street-level
> and in some places link to an underground carpark.

They have a long history in London.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlington_Arcade>
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Nick Spalding

Robert Bannister - 24 Jun 2007 00:02 GMT
> Robert Bannister wrote, in <5e34r6F3641pbU1@mid.individual.net>
>  on Sat, 23 Jun 2007 07:36:14 +0800:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> They have a long history in London.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlington_Arcade>

I must admit I'd forgotten Burlington Arcade. However, would you say
"arcade" in this sense is common in Britain? It certainly wasn't 35
years ago when I lived there.

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Rob Bannister

Nick Spalding - 24 Jun 2007 08:39 GMT
Robert Bannister wrote, in <5e5n7vF33rop4U1@mid.individual.net>
on Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:02:33 +0800:

> > Robert Bannister wrote, in <5e34r6F3641pbU1@mid.individual.net>
> >  on Sat, 23 Jun 2007 07:36:14 +0800:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> "arcade" in this sense is common in Britain? It certainly wasn't 35
> years ago when I lived there.

I think if someone referred to an arcade most people would think of that
sort of place.  I don't remember it being used for any other type of
structure except in an architectural sense.  There was one in Weymouth
when I lived near there during the war.
Signature

Nick Spalding

the Omrud - 24 Jun 2007 08:48 GMT
spalding@iol.ie had it ...

> Robert Bannister wrote, in <5e5n7vF33rop4U1@mid.individual.net>
>  on Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:02:33 +0800:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> structure except in an architectural sense.  There was one in Weymouth
> when I lived near there during the war.

Arcades, in the sense of the Burlington Arcade (past which I walked
the other day) are rare - there is one in Birmingham, one in Leeds
and a little one in Manchester.  I think they have to be Victorian.

I also think of the sort of arcade where you stuffed your pennies
into one-armed-bandits.  Cromer Pier.

Signature

David
=====

Mark Brader - 24 Jun 2007 20:51 GMT
Rob Bannister:
> > > I must admit I'd forgotten Burlington Arcade. However, would you say
> > > "arcade" in this sense is common in Britain? ...

Nick Spalding:
> > I think if someone referred to an arcade most people would think of that
> > sort of place.

I am familiar with the Burlington Arcade sort of thing, but I think of
them as a British/European phenomenon.  There is a building in downtown
Toronto called the Arcade Building (or at least it *was* called that;
I'm not sure if the name is still use), maybe 50 years old, with a
ground-floor shopping concourse that (when open) links two side streets
in a continuous straight line:

                  Yonge St.            Victoria St.
                     |                 |
         Temperance  | +-------------+ |
         St.         | |  concourse  | |   Lombard St.
           ----------+ | - - - - - - | +----------
                     | |             | |
                     | +-------------+ |
                     |   Arcade Bldg.  |

But I don't think of it as "an arcade", even if that's what was named
after.  It's just a shopping concourse.  (Which is distinct from a
shopping *mall* in that the latter is the main thing in the building,
the reason why it was built.  A shopping concourse would typically be
found in a hotel or, as in this case, an office buiding.)

The first thing the word "arcade" does bring to my mind is a big room
that be rights should be full of pinball machines, but in fact probably
has one or two of them in a corner and the rest of the space wasted on
video games and such.

"David":
> I also think of the sort of arcade where you stuffed your pennies
> into one-armed-bandits.  Cromer Pier.

Over here, gambling machines are not to be found outside casinos.
Signature

Mark Brader, Toronto | "Close your tag and give it a rest, Jason"
msb@vex.net          |                          --FoxTrot (Bill Amend)

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Garrett Wollman - 24 Jun 2007 22:58 GMT
>I am familiar with the Burlington Arcade sort of thing, but I think of
>them as a British/European phenomenon.  There is a building in downtown
>Toronto called the Arcade Building (or at least it *was* called that;
>I'm not sure if the name is still use), maybe 50 years old, with a
>ground-floor shopping concourse [...]

Similarly in downtown Los Angeles one finds the Spring Arcade, which
was also an early shopping arcade (I don't know if it still is).  It
is perhaps somewhat more notable for the two steel towers on its roof,
which once supported a "T" antenna for the owners' radio station, KRKD
(1150 Los Angeles).  (The station would later merge with Aimee Semple
McPherson's KFSG -- after McPherson's death -- and even later still,
as KIIS, would become famous as the Rick Dees's home station.  See
<http://gallery.bostonradio.org/2006-04/la/> for the rest of the
story.)

Even here in Framingham (tiny by comparison to Los Angeles) we have an
"Arcade Building" downtown, although the actual arcade, last time I
looked at it, was moribund -- even the town government offices
(overflow from the Memorial Building across the street) had moved
out.  There are plans to redevelop all the buildings on Memorial
Square (except town hall) into expensive condominiums with upscale
ground-floor retail.  It remains to be seen whether any of this will
actually happen.

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Oleg Lego - 25 Jun 2007 00:03 GMT
>Rob Bannister:
>> > > I must admit I'd forgotten Burlington Arcade. However, would you say
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
>Over here, gambling machines are not to be found outside casinos.

For some values of "over here", you're right. Farther "over here", in
Saskatchewan, we have the "VLT", or Video Lottery Terminal, found in
bars, into which you pump coins in expectation of a profit.

They are not "one armed bandits", though, if by that term you mean a
"slot machine". Many are poker playing machines, though there are
other types.
Matthew Huntbach - 25 Jun 2007 10:04 GMT
> Rob Bannister:

>>>> I must admit I'd forgotten Burlington Arcade. However, would you say
>>>> "arcade" in this sense is common in Britain? ...

> Nick Spalding:
>>> I think if someone referred to an arcade most people would think of that
>>> sort of place.

> I am familiar with the Burlington Arcade sort of thing, but I think of
> them as a British/European phenomenon.

"Arcade" meaning "a walkway with shops on either side" is a common
usage in Britain, I can think of quite a few places which have
such a structure which has a name called X "Arcade".

It's an old-fashioned term, however, dating from a time before shopping
malls (or "pedestrian shopping areas" as we used to call them before
we adopted the Americanism "mall") existed. In those days, when the
predominant pattern was shops on a street with vehicular traffic, an
arcade seemed rather exotic.

Matthew Huntbach
John Holmes - 29 Jun 2007 13:04 GMT
>> I am familiar with the Burlington Arcade sort of thing, but I think
>> of them as a British/European phenomenon.
>
> "Arcade" meaning "a walkway with shops on either side" is a common
> usage in Britain, I can think of quite a few places which have
> such a structure which has a name called X "Arcade".

There's also the Ritz Arcade in London, but that looks like only half an
arcade, open to the street along one side.

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Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

HVS - 24 Jun 2007 21:37 GMT
On 24 Jun 2007, the Omrud wrote

> Arcades, in the sense of the Burlington Arcade (past which I
> walked the other day) are rare - there is one in Birmingham, one
> in Leeds and a little one in Manchester.  I think they have to
> be Victorian.

Sorry, they're not remotely that rare if you keep an eye out for
them.

I know that Leeds has many more than one -- Victoria, Cross, and
County spring to mind -- and I've seen them in Reading, Brighton,
and Norwich.

[goes to bookshelf]

There's a pair of books I have here on the things -- a gazetteer of
extant British arcades, and a companion volume on "The History and
Conservation of Shopping Arcades".  (The author was Margaret
McKeith -- must have been a thesis.)

The gazetter lists about 120 extant arcades as of 1984;  most were
Victorian, but the date range is 1817 to 1939.  Many towns still
had a couple of them, but a quick glance says that those with more
than two surviving arcades were Bournemouth (4), Cardiff (7), Leeds
(5), London (13), and Newcastle (3).

Given that many of them appear to be listed and that conservation
became stronger in the 1980s, I suspect that a lot of these --
probably even most of them -- survive.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Nick Spalding - 25 Jun 2007 11:19 GMT
the Omrud wrote, in <MPG.20e831f18d485fb998997b@news.ntlworld.com>
on Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:48:22 GMT:

> spalding@iol.ie had it ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> I also think of the sort of arcade where you stuffed your pennies
> into one-armed-bandits.  Cromer Pier.

I have just remembered that there is one here in Dublin, built in 1881,
and still in fine fettle.
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Robert Bannister - 26 Jun 2007 00:41 GMT
> the Omrud wrote, in <MPG.20e831f18d485fb998997b@news.ntlworld.com>
>  on Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:48:22 GMT:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> I have just remembered that there is one here in Dublin, built in 1881,
> and still in fine fettle.

Perth and Adelaide have lots of them. In many cases, they are the
most-used ways of getting from one main street to the next. This one of
Perth's better known ones, unusual because it is mainly open-air:
http://www.londoncourt.com.au/

A better view that takes a long time to download is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/globetrotter1937/132402563/

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Rob Bannister

Robert Bannister - 26 Jun 2007 00:30 GMT
> spalding@iol.ie had it ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> I also think of the sort of arcade where you stuffed your pennies
> into one-armed-bandits.  Cromer Pier.

That was, I believe, the most common use of the word back when I lived
in England. I think the term  was even extended to the places with
computer games: "video arcade"?

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Rob Bannister

Robert Bannister - 26 Jun 2007 00:29 GMT
> Robert Bannister wrote, in <5e5n7vF33rop4U1@mid.individual.net>
>  on Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:02:33 +0800:

>>I must admit I'd forgotten Burlington Arcade. However, would you say
>>"arcade" in this sense is common in Britain? It certainly wasn't 35
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> structure except in an architectural sense.  There was one in Weymouth
> when I lived near there during the war.

I have a vague recollection of the word being used as a street name,
rather like "Crescent", but then the people who name streets are not
known for their linguistic knowledge.
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Rob Bannister

Hatunen - 26 Jun 2007 03:37 GMT
>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <5e5n7vF33rop4U1@mid.individual.net>
>>  on Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:02:33 +0800:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>rather like "Crescent", but then the people who name streets are not
>known for their linguistic knowledge.

Not yet mentioned, but strictly speaking an "arcade" is a
structure consisting of a series of arches. How it came to be
associated with coin machines is beyond my ken.

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Mark Brader - 27 Jun 2007 03:35 GMT
Dave Hatunen:
> Not yet mentioned, but strictly speaking an "arcade" is a
> structure consisting of a series of arches. How it came to be
> associated with coin machines is beyond my ken.

Actually, in some places they take tokens, which you buy from a
machine or an attendant.
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Hatunen - 27 Jun 2007 05:46 GMT
>Dave Hatunen:
>> Not yet mentioned, but strictly speaking an "arcade" is a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Actually, in some places they take tokens, which you buy from a
>machine or an attendant.

Tokens ARE coins.

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Mark Brader - 27 Jun 2007 06:39 GMT
Dave Hatunen:
>>> Not yet mentioned, but strictly speaking an "arcade" is a
>>> structure consisting of a series of arches. How it came to be
>>> associated with coin machines is beyond my ken.

Mark Brader:
>> Actually, in some places they take tokens, which you buy from a
>> machine or an attendant.

Dave Hatunen:
> Tokens ARE coins.

To me if it's only a coin if it's money, or was money when produced.
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tony cooper - 27 Jun 2007 13:40 GMT
>Dave Hatunen:
>>>> Not yet mentioned, but strictly speaking an "arcade" is a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>To me if it's only a coin if it's money, or was money when produced.

Tokens are considered to be exonumia.

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Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Al in Dallas - 27 Jun 2007 14:54 GMT
>>Dave Hatunen:
>>>>> Not yet mentioned, but strictly speaking an "arcade" is a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Tokens are considered to be exonumia.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is it's only a coin if
it's worth its face value. That is, the face value only tells you how
much value the material holds if it's a coin. Tokens are a different
thing altogether, and the only metallic disks that governments make
nowadays.

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Al in St. Lou

Mark Brader - 28 Jun 2007 08:52 GMT
Al Fargnoli:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is it's only a coin if
> it's worth its face value. That is, the face value only tells you how
> much value the material holds if it's a coin...

You may be correct that that is your understanding, but I doubt that
it is anyone *else's* understanding.
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Al in Dallas - 28 Jun 2007 14:07 GMT
>Al Fargnoli:
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is it's only a coin if
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>You may be correct that that is your understanding, but I doubt that
>it is anyone *else's* understanding.

Try googling. There are a whole bunch who rant about how we only have
tokens nowadays.

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Al in St. Lou

Mark Brader - 28 Jun 2007 19:19 GMT
Al Fargnoli and I (Mark Brader) write:
>>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is it's only a coin if
>>> it's worth its face value. That is, the face value only tells you how
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Try googling. There are a whole bunch who rant about how we only have
> tokens nowadays.

Okay, anyone else's understanding other than loonies?
(No pun intended.)
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Robert Bannister - 27 Jun 2007 23:56 GMT
> Dave Hatunen:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> To me if it's only a coin if it's money, or was money when produced.

Me too. I'd have said coins are tokens, but not the other way round.

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Rob Bannister

Mark Brader - 28 Jun 2007 08:56 GMT
Dave Hatunen:
>>> Tokens ARE coins.

Mark Brader:
>> To me if it's only a coin if it's money, or was money when produced.

Rob Bannister writes:
> Me too. I'd have said coins are tokens, but not the other way round.

And I say neither; they are two disjoint species of metal disk.
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tony cooper - 28 Jun 2007 13:51 GMT
>Dave Hatunen:
>>>> Tokens ARE coins.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>And I say neither; they are two disjoint species of metal disk.

Any serious collector of exonumia will have several types of tokens
that are not made of metal.  Since a token is a coin-like object that
can be exchanged for something of value, a wooden nickel that is good
for a beer at a particular saloon is one example.  A vecturist might
have a token made of a non-metal composition if he has one of the
Indianapolis bus tokens of the 50s.  (I want to say they were made of
bakelite, but I'm not sure what the material was)

I can't find a cite on this, but I remember reading about non-metal
tokens being used in munitions factories during WWII.  They were used
to purchase items at the factory canteen, and made of a material that
would not cause a spark.

Some prisons used plastic tokens in the 30s because they did not want
inmates to have metal disks.  Again, they were used to purchase items
in the canteen.

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Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Mark Brader - 28 Jun 2007 19:18 GMT
Rob Bannister:
>>> I'd have said coins are tokens, but not the other way round.

Mark Brader:
>> And I say neither; they are two disjoint species of metal disk.

Tony Cooper:
> Any serious collector of exonumia will have several types of tokens
> that are not made of metal. ...

Good point.  All the tokens I can remember using<*> have been metal,
but indeed there are others.  In fact, I now remember seeing British
competitions offering a "book token" as a prize; as there is no
reason to for this to be coin-sized, I assume its take the form of
a piece of paper.  Can someone confirm or correct this?

Another type of "token" that is not at all coin-like is the one used
in traditional British-style operation of single-track railways.
But I digress.

<*> Besides the pinball-arcade game tokens that started this subthread,
I've used telephone tokens in France; toll tokens on the QEW bridges;
and of course subway/transit tokens, in Toronto, New York, Boston, and if
I recall correctly Philadelphia.  I think I once used a laundromat with
an arcade-like token system, too, but if so then I forget where.

The telephone tokens were a vanishing species when I used them, and the
toll tokens disappeared with the tolls (and that was before I was old
enough to drive, but I'd get to drop the toll token into the hopper from
the back window, so that counts as using them).
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Frances Kemmish - 28 Jun 2007 19:40 GMT
> Good point.  All the tokens I can remember using<*> have been metal,
> but indeed there are others.  In fact, I now remember seeing British
> competitions offering a "book token" as a prize; as there is no
> reason to for this to be coin-sized, I assume its take the form of
> a piece of paper.  Can someone confirm or correct this?

I have fond memories of the book tokens of my youth. They were small
slips of paper, somewhat like the banknotes in a monopoly set, that came
tucked into a greeting card.

They were exchangeable for books at most bookshops in England. I only
remember finding one bookshop that didn't sell or take book tokens, and
that was a very small shop on a back street in a small town.

I got a book token as a prize in a school essay competition (it was
sponsored by Brooke Bond, and was about tea) when I was about seven
years old, and I still have the books I bought with it (a Ladybird bird
book, Cinderella, and a book of Bible stories). Our teacher drove us to
the bookshop to use them.

It looks as though they are still around:

http://www.booktokens.co.uk/

Fran
LFS - 28 Jun 2007 22:20 GMT
>> Good point.  All the tokens I can remember using<*> have been metal,
>> but indeed there are others.  In fact, I now remember seeing British
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> http://www.booktokens.co.uk/

I too have happy memories of receiving book tokens in my youth, both as
gifts and as prizes, and the pleasure of going to W.H.Smith to spend
them. But my mother always insisted that I had to buy books that I would
"use" which meant reference books rather than fiction. I blame her for
the extravagant fiction buying habit I now have.

They are certainly still around. Husband plays safe with birthday gifts:
he gives me a book token every year, although recently my gift has been
in the form of a Borders token, which is a plastic card.

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Roland Hutchinson - 28 Jun 2007 22:51 GMT
> It looks as though they are still around:
>
> http://www.booktokens.co.uk/

It seems to me that a book token is the prize for listener questions that
stump the panel on one of the perennial Radio 4 quiz shows -- is it Brain
of Britain?

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Robert Bannister - 29 Jun 2007 01:54 GMT
>> Good point.  All the tokens I can remember using<*> have been metal,
>> but indeed there are others.  In fact, I now remember seeing British
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> slips of paper, somewhat like the banknotes in a monopoly set, that came
> tucked into a greeting card.

Although "token" still hangs around with respect to books, it seems to
be have largely taken over by "voucher", and "book voucher" is not unknown.

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Rob Bannister

Mike M - 29 Jun 2007 10:58 GMT
> > Good point.  All the tokens I can remember using<*> have been metal,
> > but indeed there are others.  In fact, I now remember seeing British
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> http://www.booktokens.co.uk/

What about record tokens? They worked the same way. Although I
remember being dismayed to find that retailers wouldn't give change on
them; I had been given a five shilling record token for my birthday at
a time when 45rpm singles cost 3/6 (three shillings and sixpence), and
took it to Woolworths to buy (if memory serves) "The Ballad Of Bonnie
And Clyde" by Georgie Fame. I handed over the five bob token and
waited for my one-and-six change, oly to be told "We don't give change
on tokens". Boy, was I pissed off. One-and-six down the pan.

Mike M
Nick Atty - 28 Jun 2007 19:45 GMT
><*> Besides the pinball-arcade game tokens that started this subthread,
>I've used telephone tokens in France; toll tokens on the QEW bridges;
>and of course subway/transit tokens, in Toronto, New York, Boston, and if
>I recall correctly Philadelphia.  I think I once used a laundromat with
>an arcade-like token system, too, but if so then I forget where.

I've used metal underground tokens in St Petersburg (Russia) and plastic
ones in dodgem cars at a fairground at Easter.

Slot machines in UK pubs used to pay all prizes above a certain value in
tokens - these were metal disks.

These aren't quite the tokens that started this thread - the machines
took cash as well as the tokens.
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LFS - 28 Jun 2007 22:26 GMT
>><*> Besides the pinball-arcade game tokens that started this subthread,
>>I've used telephone tokens in France; toll tokens on the QEW bridges;
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> These aren't quite the tokens that started this thread - the machines
> took cash as well as the tokens.

Our drinks machine at work takes both tokens - difficult to prise from
the hands of the finance department without authorisation in triplicate
and the birth certificates of any vistors on whom one might want to
inflict the vile beverages - and cash.

A charity which I support recently sent donors a token which is almost
identical to a £1 coin, apart from its colour and the charity logo, with
the suggestion that it could be used instead of a £1 coin in lockers and
supermarket trolleys. I thought that was a very good idea but I've lost
mine already.

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Nick Spalding - 29 Jun 2007 10:45 GMT
LFS wrote, in <5einbrF366nnlU1@mid.individual.net>
on Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:26:27 +0100:

> A charity which I support recently sent donors a token which is almost
> identical to a £1 coin, apart from its colour and the charity logo, with
> the suggestion that it could be used instead of a £1 coin in lockers and
> supermarket trolleys. I thought that was a very good idea but I've lost
> mine already.

Several charities here have done that.  I have one which came with a
miniature dog-lead clip which goes on my key ring.  Not only a convenience
but it makes it possible to get the token out of a trolley which is
reluctant to relinquish it so long as you put it in with the little hole
outwards.  The local Lidl ones are like that.
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Peter Duncanson - 28 Jun 2007 23:29 GMT
>Rob Bannister:
>>>> I'd have said coins are tokens, but not the other way round.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>reason to for this to be coin-sized, I assume its take the form of
>a piece of paper.  Can someone confirm or correct this?

There are other printed tokens other than book tokens.

Newspapers and magazines have "special offers" of goods of one sort
or another. Some of these offers are organised by the publisher in
conjunction with the supplier of the goods. To purchase an item it
is necessary to collect printed tokens from a sequence of issues of
the publication and to send these with the order form for the goods.

This can help to boost circulation.

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Robin Bignall - 29 Jun 2007 22:30 GMT
>>Rob Bannister:
>>>>> I'd have said coins are tokens, but not the other way round.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>This can help to boost circulation.

The recent collection of a dozen thrillers on DVDs by the Daily Mail,
for which one had to collect quite a few tokens, certainly helped to
boost my circulation.  Several of them were of Freddy Forsyth's
stories, and weren't bad.
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Robin Bignall
Herts, England

Al in Dallas - 27 Jun 2007 14:51 GMT
>>Dave Hatunen:
>>> Not yet mentioned, but strictly speaking an "arcade" is a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Tokens ARE coins.

I decided not to open that can of worms last night, but I concur.
Well, I would have said todays coins are tokens--slightly different.

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Al in St. Lou

Oleg Lego - 26 Jun 2007 06:07 GMT
>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <5e5n7vF33rop4U1@mid.individual.net>
>>  on Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:02:33 +0800:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>rather like "Crescent", but then the people who name streets are not
>known for their linguistic knowledge.

As soon as I read this, I thought about a song by "Kevin Bloody
Wilson", called "Living Next Door to Allan". For some reason I
misremembered the name of a (street? subdivision? region) as
<something> Arcade. It turns out it's even stranger, and is actually
"Jutland Parade". Is "Parade" used in this manner common in Australia
(or anywhere else)?

The song is hilarious.
Peter Moylan - 26 Jun 2007 07:46 GMT
> As soon as I read this, I thought about a song by "Kevin Bloody
> Wilson", called "Living Next Door to Allan". For some reason I
> misremembered the name of a (street? subdivision? region) as
> <something> Arcade. It turns out it's even stranger, and is actually
>  "Jutland Parade". Is "Parade" used in this manner common in
> Australia (or anywhere else)?

I used to live in a "Rodway Parade", and I do have the impression that
it's fairly common in Australia. None of these parades seem to have any
special quality that would induce one to parade along it.

Googlemapping my way around my present area, I find that "Street"
dominates, but that one can also find "Road", "Lane", and "Avenue".
(That last one bothers me. I have a (possibly mistaken) feeling that an
avenue should be broad and tree-lined, but some of my local avenues are mere
minor streets.) Panning the map over to a newer subdivision, I see that
the dominant names are "Close", "Circuit", "Place", "Drive", and "Way".
"Crescent" is common in both old and new areas. It appears that "Grove"
and "Parade" belong to the more up-market suburbs. (After two marriages,
I find that I've been moving steadily downmarket.) I won't go through
the distribution I've found over the various suburbs, but it's fairly
clear that street naming conventions have changed quite a bit over time.

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Toby A Inkster - 26 Jun 2007 10:53 GMT
> I used to live in a "Rodway Parade", and I do have the impression that
> it's fairly common in Australia. None of these parades seem to have any
> special quality that would induce one to parade along it.

I used to live near Anzac Parade in Sydney –— it used to be the route
taken by soldiers marching from their barracks in Kensington to the
harbour. Though the City–Kensington stretch only takes up about a third of
the total length of Anzac Parade, so I suppose a march down part of the
road gave the name to the whole of it.

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Oleg Lego - 26 Jun 2007 16:24 GMT
>> As soon as I read this, I thought about a song by "Kevin Bloody
>> Wilson", called "Living Next Door to Allan". For some reason I
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>the distribution I've found over the various suburbs, but it's fairly
>clear that street naming conventions have changed quite a bit over time.

Thanks, Peter. I had meant to ask about the term before now, but did
not, until "Arcade" reminded me of it.

I previously thought that it was likely a name for an area of a city,
or perhaps a subdivision. Here in Canada (at least in areas I am
familiar with), "Parade" is unheard of as a name for a street, area,
or subdivision.

As for streets and avenues, in most places here, they are no different
in terms of their appearance, and are usually differentiated by the
direction in which they lie, and perhaps by some other criteria,
usually having little to do with width or the presence of trees. In
Vancouver, for example, streets lie north and south, while avenues lie
east and west.

"Drive", "Crescent", and "Place" are common, and have been for years.
"Close", "Mews", and "Gate" are relatively recent.
Hatunen - 26 Jun 2007 16:57 GMT
>As for streets and avenues, in most places here, they are no different
>in terms of their appearance, and are usually differentiated by the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>"Drive", "Crescent", and "Place" are common, and have been for years.
>"Close", "Mews", and "Gate" are relatively recent.

Here in Tucson N-S rights-of-way are "avenues" and E-W are
"streets". Unless they are "boulevards" or "roads". But there is
also a term for those not aligned to the cardinal directions:
"stravenue".

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R H Draney - 26 Jun 2007 19:23 GMT
Hatunen filted:

>Here in Tucson N-S rights-of-way are "avenues" and E-W are
>"streets". Unless they are "boulevards" or "roads". But there is
>also a term for those not aligned to the cardinal directions:
>"stravenue".

That one's always tickled me...do Spanish-language billboards refer to them as
"stravenidas" (or maybe "caminidos")?...

Meanwhile, only two hours drive distant, both "streets" and "avenues" run N-S
and have numbers...things with names run E-W, and if they have suffixes at all
it's usually "road"....r

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Al in Dallas - 27 Jun 2007 02:39 GMT
>Hatunen filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>and have numbers...things with names run E-W, and if they have suffixes at all
>it's usually "road"....r

You can't be describing Manhattan because there the avenues run N-S
and the streets run E-W, and they both have numbers.

In DC, IIRC, some are circles while the others are rays, and many are
named after states.

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Al in St. Lou

Hatunen - 27 Jun 2007 05:45 GMT
>Hatunen filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>and have numbers...things with names run E-W, and if they have suffixes at all
>it's usually "road"....r

It's always struck me odd that up there in Los Angeles (Far) East
First Street and First Avenue are parallel and two blocks apart.
I'm sure the people there know whether it's streets or avenues
that are west or east of Central Avenue, but there's no way in
hell I can ever remember.

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R H Draney - 27 Jun 2007 07:23 GMT
Hatunen filted:

>>Meanwhile, only two hours drive distant, both "streets" and "avenues" run N-S
>>and have numbers...things with names run E-W, and if they have suffixes at all
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>that are west or east of Central Avenue, but there's no way in
>hell I can ever remember.

Avenues, Drives and Lanes are west of Central; Streets, Places and Ways are
east...holding the map in the conventional manner with north at the top and
reading in the conventional left-to-right order, alphabetical order tells you
which are on which side....r

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Nick Atty - 26 Jun 2007 17:47 GMT
>I previously thought that it was likely a name for an area of a city,
>or perhaps a subdivision. Here in Canada (at least in areas I am
>familiar with), "Parade" is unheard of as a name for a street, area,
>or subdivision.

YUM. Oh, if you please he's the gentleman who used to play
so beautifully on the--on the--
PITTI. On the Marine Parade.
YUM. Yes, I think that was the name of the instrument.
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Robert Bannister - 27 Jun 2007 02:00 GMT
> "Drive", "Crescent", and "Place" are common, and have been for years.
> "Close", "Mews", and "Gate" are relatively recent.

That last one is interesting because it comes from Norse and, in
England, is usually only found in strong Viking areas like Newcastle on
Tyne. Of course, there are others that refer to an actual gate in the
town wall.
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Nick Atty - 27 Jun 2007 06:59 GMT
>> "Drive", "Crescent", and "Place" are common, and have been for years.
>> "Close", "Mews", and "Gate" are relatively recent.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Tyne. Of course, there are others that refer to an actual gate in the
>town wall.

Wigan has a whole set of them - Millgate, Wallgate, Standishgate come
straight to mind.

I was always told that these came from gates in a wall, and certainly
Wigan was never particularly Viking (it's supposed to be a British name
for example), but don't actually know the origin.
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Oleg Lego - 27 Jun 2007 07:17 GMT
>>> "Drive", "Crescent", and "Place" are common, and have been for years.
>>> "Close", "Mews", and "Gate" are relatively recent.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Wigan has a whole set of them - Millgate, Wallgate, Standishgate come
>straight to mind.

That's quite different from the "gate" as we know it here. If a street
is named something like "Millgate", it will be "Millgate Avenue" or
"Millgate Crescent", or somesuch.

I was speaking of the term "gate" as in "East Gate" or Quance Gate"
(two real examples from Regina).

>I was always told that these came from gates in a wall, and certainly
>Wigan was never particularly Viking (it's supposed to be a British name
>for example), but don't actually know the origin.
Toby A Inkster - 27 Jun 2007 08:43 GMT
> I was always told that these came from gates in a wall, and certainly
> Wigan was never particularly Viking (it's supposed to be a British name
> for example), but don't actually know the origin.

Indeed -- I'd say most English towns older than a few centuries would have
a street called "Something Gate" (for appropriate values of "Something").
Anywhere old enough and important enough to have once had a town wall.

Using a combination of my memory and Google (my Googory?), I've come up
with this list of Gates in the three towns I've lived in since moving to
the UK:

NOTTINGHAM
    Lister Gate
    Bridlesmith Gate
    Goose Gate
    Barker Gate
    Castle Gate
    Pilcher Gate
    St Peter's Gate (the gate St Peter used whenever visiting Nott'm?)
    Wheeler Gate
    North Gate
    St Mary's Gate
    Hounds Gate
    Poultry Gate
    Fletcher Gate

LONDON
    Moorgate
    Bishopsgate
    Buckingham Gate
    Lancaster Gate
    Ludgate Hill (this is a hill, but also the name of a street)
    Hyde Park Gate
    Notting Hill Gate
    Norton Folgate

LEWES
    Castle Gate
    Westgate Street
    Eastgate Street
    Eastgate (which has a junction with Eastgate Street)
    Watergate Lane

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Robert Bannister - 28 Jun 2007 00:04 GMT
>>I was always told that these came from gates in a wall, and certainly
>>Wigan was never particularly Viking (it's supposed to be a British name
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> with this list of Gates in the three towns I've lived in since moving to
> the UK:

I can't speak for those I don't know, but from memory some of the names
in your list are not so much streets as areas or places. I would expect
a "gate" that is from an old town gate to be at most at very short
street or else a wider area verging on a town square, which is not to
say that there are no exceptions. I'm pretty certain the Tyneside
"gates" are equivalent to Swedish gåten.

(spelling suspect, and it probably should be gåtener or something to
make it plural).
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Rob Bannister

Lars Enderin - 28 Jun 2007 07:17 GMT
Robert Bannister skrev:

> I can't speak for those I don't know, but from memory some of the names
> in your list are not so much streets as areas or places. I would expect
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (spelling suspect, and it probably should be gåtener or something to
> make it plural).

Street = gata. Streets = gator.
Peter Moylan - 28 Jun 2007 13:06 GMT
> Robert Bannister skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Street = gata. Streets = gator.

Narrow streets = alley gator.

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Robert Bannister - 29 Jun 2007 01:57 GMT
> Robert Bannister skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Street = gata. Streets = gator.

Tak. I think I was adding "the" apart from having the incorrect plural.

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Rob Bannister

Lars Enderin - 29 Jun 2007 08:23 GMT
Robert Bannister skrev:

>> Robert Bannister skrev:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Tak. I think I was adding "the" apart from having the incorrect plural.

(Tack). The street = gatan. The streets = gatorna.
Note that Danish and Norwegian have "gate".
Amethyst Deceiver - 28 Jun 2007 13:13 GMT
> I can't speak for those I don't know, but from memory some of the
> names in your list are not so much streets as areas or places. I
> would expect a "gate" that is from an old town gate to be at most at
> very short street or else a wider area verging on a town square,
> which is not to say that there are no exceptions. I'm pretty certain
> the Tyneside "gates" are equivalent to Swedish gåten.

Sg gata, pl gator.

Certainly the 'gates' in York are equivalent to Swedish 'gator'. You run the
risk of tripping over the Scandinavian influence wherever you go, there.
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Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Robert Bannister - 29 Jun 2007 01:59 GMT
>>I can't speak for those I don't know, but from memory some of the
>>names in your list are not so much streets as areas or places. I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Certainly the 'gates' in York are equivalent to Swedish 'gator'. You run the
> risk of tripping over the Scandinavian influence wherever you go, there.

I've only ever passed through York and wish I had visited it properly.
Now, I shall have this image of saunas, aquavit and blond(e) suicides
stuck in my mind.

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Rob Bannister

HVS - 23 Jun 2007 11:05 GMT
On 23 Jun 2007, Robert Bannister wrote

>> Newcastle has that too, and it's called a "mall"; but this year
>> there's been a lot of talk about opening it up to traffic. A
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I was going to explain that these 2 streets are linked by
> "arcades", but I knew this would not be understood overseas

You *knew* what?? You've not travelled extensively, I take it.

The world's first arcade -- it still exists -- was Nash's Royal Opera
Arcade of 1817, which parallels the Haymarket in London.  (The
better-known Burlington Arcade, which parallels Bond Street, is a
couple of years later.)

Arcades were extremely popular in England the late 19th century --
most cities had them;  some particularly fine examples were found in
Leeds -- and many still survive, and are still called 'arcades'.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Mike Lyle - 23 Jun 2007 12:10 GMT
> On 23 Jun 2007, Robert Bannister wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> most cities had them;  some particularly fine examples were found in
> Leeds -- and many still survive, and are still called 'arcades'.

No sign of any objections to "pedestrianised" streets in UK, either.
They sometimes get called "pedestrian precincts": I guess that's when
there's more than one street involved.

I think somebody's already said that in the UK it's only a "mall" if
it's roofed. I don't feel the American word (how did it acquire this
meaning?) comes naturally over here: the places are usually called "The
X Centre". Note that Pall Mall and The Mall in London rhyme with "pal",
not "Paul".

Some of these places do become associated with the loitering kinds of
crimes, now I come to think of it. Among the ingenious methods deployed
against this menace is the playing of Cliff Richard records over the PA.

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Mike.

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Peter Duncanson - 23 Jun 2007 12:18 GMT
>On 23 Jun 2007, Robert Bannister wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>most cities had them;  some particularly fine examples were found in
>Leeds -- and many still survive, and are still called 'arcades'.

"Arcade" is being used in the names of new developments, for
instance the Grand Arcade Shopping Centre in Wigan:
http://www.wigantowncentre.com/grand_arcade/index.html

The main advertiser on that page is William Santus & Co. Ltd, the
maker of Uncle Joe's Mint Balls, whose website informs us:
http://www.uncle-joes.com/

   Uncle Joe's Mint Balls are still manufactured using the same
   traditional methods as when Mrs Santus originally made the
   sweets in her kitchen in 1898.

and

   Despite the fact that Uncle Joe's Mint Balls are made only in
   Wigan, their fame has spread far and wide. Uncle Joe's have been
   sighted at the top of mountains in India, villages in Kenya,
   Vancouver in Canada and even in the darkest depths of New York,
   USA!

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Nick Atty - 23 Jun 2007 12:56 GMT
>The main advertiser on that page is William Santus & Co. Ltd, the
>maker of Uncle Joe's Mint Balls, whose website informs us:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>    Vancouver in Canada and even in the darkest depths of New York,
>    USA!

And I'm one of the family mentioned on that page.   I went to school
opposite the factory - the smells were wonderful.
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Peter Duncanson - 23 Jun 2007 14:19 GMT
>>The main advertiser on that page is William Santus & Co. Ltd, the
>>maker of Uncle Joe's Mint Balls, whose website informs us:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>And I'm one of the family mentioned on that page.

Interesting.

>   I went to school
>opposite the factory - the smells were wonderful.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Moylan - 23 Jun 2007 14:11 GMT
>> Newcastle has that too, and it's called a "mall"; but this year
>> there's been a lot of talk about opening it up to traffic. A few
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> noticed any opposition to the couple of pedestrian-only streets in
> Perth.

I wish I could supply the evidence, but the part about reopening
pedestrian malls to traffic in other towns was in newspapers that I've
now thrown out, and I can't remember where they were. One thing that's
certain is that the Hunter Street Mall in central Newcastle has become a
trouble spot at night. During the day it's OK. The bad time is from
about midnight to 3 a.m., when bands of drunken youths emerge from the
pubs and decide to have a bit of fun beating up people and smashing a
few shop windows. The pedestrian mall is largely deserted at this time,
poorly lit, and of course there's no passing traffic. It's the lack of
passing traffic that's seen as the big problem. If cars could get
through, the police might turn up in places where they're scared to go
on foot.

It probably depends on a lot of local factors. I can think of a
pedestrian precinct elsewhere in Newcastle where they don't have this
problem, probably because there are few pubs in the area.

> I was going to explain that these 2 streets are linked by "arcades",
> but I knew this would not be understood overseas and I wondered
> whether it is an Australia-wide term or just used in Perth and
> Adelaide.

They're definitely called arcades in Melbourne. I continue to call them
arcades in NSW, but I can't tell whether that's a remnant of my
Victorian vocabulary. I suspect not; the word seems to be well known.

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Mark Brader - 22 Jun 2007 10:20 GMT
Peter Moylan:
>>> In a news report about damage sustained in one shopping street...

Al Fargnoli:
>> Hmmm, we have downtowns, but I doubt that we have shopping streets.

Tony Cooper:
> We do in this area.  A "shopping street" is a street where vehicular
> traffic is banned for a few blocks. ... sometimes called a "walking street".

I've never heard either of those terms used with that meaning.  To me
the only terms that clearly describe such a thing involve some form
of the word "pedestrian".  "Mall" may also be used, but is ambiguous
unless you know what's being talked about.  (A related concept is a
street where cars and trucks are banned but public transit operates:
the only term I've heard for this is "transit mall".)

"Shopping street" to me is an expression I don't use much -- it might
be Rightpondian or mainly so -- that simply means a street with a lot
of busy shops on it.  That's what I assumed Peter was talking about.
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Robin Bignall - 22 Jun 2007 22:51 GMT
>Peter Moylan:
>>>> In a news report about damage sustained in one shopping street...
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>be Rightpondian or mainly so -- that simply means a street with a lot
>of busy shops on it.  That's what I assumed Peter was talking about.

It ain't in my Rightpondian vocabulary.  'Pedestrian precinct',
'pedestrian(ised) area' or similar terms are used to describe what
were once city or town streets lined with shops and open to traffic
but which are now closed to (most) vehicles. I say 'most' because the
one in my local High Street has hydraulic barriers that are lowered to
let buses pass through the town.  I'd guess that most Brits who use or
know the term 'shopping mall' would assume that it's under cover and
must therefore have no vehicles running through it. Road signs leading
to large out-of-town shopping areas are often signposted 'superstore'
or 'commercial centre'.
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Robin Bignall
Herts, England

Robert Bannister - 23 Jun 2007 01:36 GMT
>>"Shopping street" to me is an expression I don't use much -- it might
>>be Rightpondian or mainly so -- that simply means a street with a lot
>>of busy shops on it.  That's what I assumed Peter was talking about.
>
> It ain't in my Rightpondian vocabulary.

I must say I took Mark's second meaning when Peter wrote it. It may not
be a widely-used term, but I think most people would understand "the
main shopping street" or "the fashionable shopping street"; "street"
could be extended to "area" or "district".

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Rob Bannister

Mark Brader - 23 Jun 2007 03:14 GMT
Mark Brader:
>>> "Shopping street" to me is an expression I don't use much -- it might
>>> be Rightpondian or mainly so -- that simply means a street with a lot
>>> of busy shops on it.  That's what I assumed Peter was talking about.

Robin Bignall:
>> It ain't in my Rightpondian vocabulary.

Rob Bannister:
> I must say I took Mark's second meaning when Peter wrote it. It may not
> be a widely-used term, but I think most people would understand ...

Mark only gave one meaning.
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Al in Dallas - 23 Jun 2007 06:11 GMT
>Mark Brader:
>>>> "Shopping street" to me is an expression I don't use much -- it might
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Mark only gave one meaning.

Oh, geez, thanks. For a moment, I thought I couldn't count!

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Al in St. Lou

Robert Bannister - 24 Jun 2007 00:08 GMT
> Mark Brader:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Mark only gave one meaning.

I took "an expression I don't use much...Rightpondian" to indicate that
you'd heard it used in the meaning Peter gave, but somehow I mentally
changed your "that simply means" into "for me, it means", ie a second
meaning from the one Peter gave. Apologies.

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Rob Bannister

Robin Bignall - 23 Jun 2007 22:51 GMT
>>>"Shopping street" to me is an expression I don't use much -- it might
>>>be Rightpondian or mainly so -- that simply means a street with a lot
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>main shopping street" or "the fashionable shopping street"; "street"
>could be extended to "area" or "district".

Oh, I have no doubt that the term is understandable.  I was just
thinking that "I'm just popping down to the shopping street" is not
idiomatic in the BrE I speak.  "I'm going to the shops" or "Where is
the shopping centre?" would be more likely as generalised terms.
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Robin Bignall
Herts, England

Mark Brader - 23 Jun 2007 23:00 GMT
Mark Brader:
>>>> "Shopping street" to me is an expression I don't use much -- it might
>>>> be Rightpondian or mainly so -- that simply means a street with a lot
>>>> of busy shops on it.  That's what I assumed Peter was talking about.

Robin Bignall:
> Oh, I have no doubt that the term is understandable.  I was just
> thinking that "I'm just popping down to the shopping street" is not
> idiomatic in the BrE I speak.

I wouldn't say that either.  I'd expect the phrase to be used as a
description of what a particular street (or part of it) is like.
The part of Yonge Street just north of Davisville is a shopping
street; the part just south isn't.  ("Davisville" means Davisville
Avenue, or possibly Davisville subway station; but you know that.)
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Toby A Inkster - 23 Jun 2007 23:42 GMT
> We do in this area.  A "shopping street" is a street where vehicular
> traffic is banned for a few blocks.

Called a "pedestrianised area" in BrE.

The north side of London's iconic Trafalgar Square is now pedestrianised,
though there aren't really any shops there.

In the town where I live, part of the High Street (q.v. recent
discussions) is pedestrianised.

I used to live in Ealing, which also had a small pedestrianised street in
the town centre. If all goes to plan, the London-Uxbridge tram will run
through Ealing, and a large stretch of Uxbridge Road (currently a very busy
thoroughfare) which runs through the Ealing shops will be pedestrianised,
albeit with a tram line running though it (does that count?), traffic being
diverted to widened streets north of the shops.

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tony cooper - 24 Jun 2007 02:07 GMT
>> We do in this area.  A "shopping street" is a street where vehicular
>> traffic is banned for a few blocks.
>
>Called a "pedestrianised area" in BrE.

We don't - to the best of my knowledge - have one name for such a
thing.  The usual drill is for the merchants in the area to lobby the
city officials to close down a section of the street certain days of
the week or even permanently.  The merchants want this because it
allows shoppers to scurry to several shops without having to wait for
a break in traffic or to walk a great distance (10 or 20 yards)  to an
intersection to cross over to the shops on the other side of the
street.

Someone will come up with a term to describe the change in order to
make it more palatable to the drivers who now have to find a new way
to get to Point A from Point B because Point C is now blocked to them.

The term will imply great benefit to the people of the city and
indicate that the city officials are keen to improve their lives.  The
term could be "shopping street", "walking street", or some-such.  

The city will now be able to sell licenses to cart vendors who intend
to set up in the street.  The operators of the carts will take up the
parking places on the adjacent streets thus making it even more
difficult for people to find parking near the shops.

The merchants will then clamor for a parking garage to be erected near
the area, and the city will sell permits and licenses to the
construction people and later derive income from parking facility.  
The adjacent streets will be widened to accommodate the re-routed
drivers.  

By the time all of this activity is completed, the surrounding
neighborhood will have gone downhill, the rents for the merchants will
have gone up, and the public will have found somewhere else to shop.

>The north side of London's iconic Trafalgar Square is now pedestrianised,
>though there aren't really any shops there.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>albeit with a tram line running though it (does that count?), traffic being
>diverted to widened streets north of the shops.

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Orlando, FL

 
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