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Discussion Groups / English Usage / December 2003I'm Feeling Ludacris Right Now
A year or so ago, someone asked me about rap music and whether I had a favorite hip-hop song at the moment. I told her "I'M FEELING LUDACRIS RIGHT NOW". Comments? > A year or so ago, someone asked me about rap music and whether I had a favorite > hip-hop song at the moment. I told her "I'M FEELING LUDACRIS RIGHT NOW". > Comments? You are Bun Mui and I claim a million dollars.  SignatureRob L. Lieb: >You are Bun Mui and I claim a million dollars. Who's Bun Mui? Is she a chink? > Lieb: > > >You are Bun Mui and I claim a million dollars. > > Who's Bun Mui? Is she a chink? Ludacris is a nigger. > Lieb: >> You are Bun Mui and I claim a million dollars. > > Who's Bun Mui? Is she a chink? She might be this: http://alt-usage-english.org/AUE_gallery/bunmui.html Then again, maybe not. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ Skitt: >> Who's Bun Mui? Is she a chink? > >She might be this: >http://alt-usage-english.org/AUE_gallery/bunmui.html I'd bone that sh.t! Can I post MY pic to the AUE gallery, and will it be posted next to Bun Mui's? Bun Mui, you gots a boo? >A year or so ago, someone asked me about rap music and whether I had a favorite >hip-hop song at the moment. I told her "I'M FEELING LUDACRIS RIGHT NOW". >Comments? "Joey, Joey King of the streets, child of clay." -- Bob Dylan Comments? -- Ross Howard Howard: > "Joey, Joey > King of the streets, child of clay." > > -- Bob Dylan Is this a real Bob Dylan song? I don't think I've ever heard it. What's your post supposed to mean? > Howard: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is this a real Bob Dylan song? I don't think I've ever heard it. What's your > post supposed to mean? Joey [by Bob Dylan and Jacques Levy, to be found on _Desire_ (1976) and _Dylan & the Dead_ (1988)] Born in Red Hook, Brooklyn, in the year of who knows when Opened up his eyes to the tune of an accordion Always on the outside of whatever side there was When they asked him why it had to be that way, "Well," he answered, "just because." Larry was the oldest, Joey was next to last. They called Joe "Crazy," the baby they called "Kid Blast." Some say they lived off gambling and runnin' numbers too. It always seemed they got caught between the mob and the men in blue. Joey, Joey, King of the streets, child of clay. Joey, Joey, What made them want to come and blow you away? There was talk they killed their rivals, but the truth was far from that No one ever knew for sure where they were really at. When they tried to strangle Larry, Joey almost hit the roof. He went out that night to seek revenge, thinkin' he was bulletproof. The war broke out at the break of dawn, it emptied out the streets Joey and his brothers suffered terrible defeats Till they ventured out behind the lines and took five prisoners. They stashed them away in a basement, called them amateurs. The hostages were tremblin' when they heard a man exclaim, "Let's blow this place to kingdom come, let Con Edison take the blame." But Joey stepped up, he raised his hand, said, "We're not those kind of men. It's peace and quiet that we need to go back to work again." Joey, Joey, King of the streets, child of clay. Joey, Joey, What made them want to come and blow you away? The police department hounded him, they called him Mr. Smith They got him on conspiracy, they were never sure who with. "What time is it?" said the judge to Joey when they met "Five to ten," said Joey. The judge says, "That's exactly what you get." He did ten years in Attica, reading Nietzsche and Wilhelm Reich They threw him in the hole one time for tryin' to stop a strike. His closest friends were black men 'cause they seemed to understand What it's like to be in society with a shackle on your hand. When they let him out in '71 he'd lost a little weight But he dressed like Jimmy Cagney and I swear he did look great. He tried to find the way back into the life he left behind To the boss he said, "I have returned and now I want what's mine." Joey, Joey, King of the streets, child of clay. Joey, Joey, Why did they have to come and blow you away? It was true that in his later years he would not carry a gun "I'm around too many children," he'd say, "they should never know of one." Yet he walked right into the clubhouse of his lifelong deadly foe, Emptied out the register, said, "Tell 'em it was Crazy Joe." One day they blew him down in a clam bar in New York He could see it comin' through the door as he lifted up his fork. He pushed the table over to protect his family Then he staggered out into the streets of Little Italy. Joey, Joey, King of the streets, child of clay. Joey, Joey, What made them want to come and blow you away? Sister Jacqueline and Carmela and mother Mary all did weep. I heard his best friend Frankie say, "He ain't dead, he's just asleep." Then I saw the old man's limousine head back towards the grave I guess he had to say one last goodbye to the son that he could not save. The sun turned cold over President Street and the town of Brooklyn mourned They said a mass in the old church near the house where he was born. And someday if God's in heaven overlookin' His preserve I know the men that shot him down will get what they deserve. Joey, Joey, King of the streets, child of clay. Joey, Joey, What made them want to come and blow you away? Copyright © 1975 Ram's Horn Music SignatureMartin Ambuhl >Howard: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Is this a real Bob Dylan song? I don't think I've ever heard it. What's your >post supposed to mean? What it says. What else might it mean? -- Ross Howard > A year or so ago, someone asked me about rap music and whether I had a favorite > hip-hop song at the moment. I told her "I'M FEELING LUDACRIS RIGHT NOW". > Comments? I hope you didn't feel her in public. Both Ludacris and the other chick might resent it, and you could get arrested, Mr. Stinky-Fingers. SignatureReinhold (Rey) Aman Rey: >I hope you didn't feel her in public. Both Ludacris and the other chick >might resent it, and you could get arrested, Mr. Stinky-Fingers. What makes you think Ludacris is a girl? > Rey: > > I hope you didn't feel her in public. Both Ludacris and the other chick > > might resent it, and you could get arrested, Mr. Stinky-Fingers. > What makes you think Ludacris is a girl? Intuition. SignatureReinhold (Rey) Aman Rey: >> What makes you think Ludacris is a girl? > >Intuition. Nope. It's a guy! > Rey: > >> What makes you think Ludacris is a girl? > >Intuition. > Nope. It's a guy! You're feeling *guys*? Yuck. SignatureReinhold (Rey) Aman Rey: >> >> What makes you think Ludacris is a girl? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >You're feeling *guys*? Yuck. Why not? > Rey: [Joey:] > >> >> What makes you think Ludacris is a girl? > >> >Intuition. > >> Nope. It's a guy! > >You're feeling *guys*? Yuck. > Why not? That's like so gay! SignatureReinhold (Rey) Aman Rey: >> >You're feeling *guys*? Yuck. > >> Why not? > >That's like so gay! LOL! That's great! >> Rey: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >You're feeling *guys*? Yuck. Reinhold has finally found someone in AUE with a level of maturity similar to his own; someone he can truly communicate with. In English, not the German he's more familiar with, but a man can't have everything. How nice for him anyway, for he's been missing out on the latest in crude jokes from Germany about homosexuals, not to mention the toilet humour so popular in his native land. Enough to ruin the day of any good, fat, red-faced Bavarian, so it is. Let's hope Young Joey can cheer the old guy up. Up, but not too far up. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net > A year or so ago, someone asked me about rap music and whether I had a favorite > hip-hop song at the moment. I told her "I'M FEELING LUDACRIS RIGHT NOW". > Comments? It's hard to pinpoint, but I'd guess that transitive "feel" meaning "to like, enjoy, feel a connection with (a song, a person, etc.)" dates to mid-'90s hiphop lingo. It's a stative verb but AFAIK almost always takes the progressive/habitual aspect ("be feeling X"). The object of the verb is often simply "it" with no clear antecedent (as in Jay-Z's 1996 song "Feelin' It"). Cf. the new hiphop-ish McDonald's advertising slogan, "I'm lovin' it". Ben wrote: >I'd guess that transitive "feel" meaning "to like, enjoy, feel a >connection with (a song, a person, etc.)" dates to mid-'90s >hiphop lingo. It's a stative verb but AFAIK almost always >takes the progressive/habitual aspect ("be feeling X"). >The object of the verb is often simply "it" with no clear >antecedent (as in Jay-Z's 1996 song "Feelin' It"). But 1996 is too late for its first hiphop appearance: Marky Mark & The Funky Bunch's "Good Vibrations," released in 1991, urges us to "Feel it! feel it! Feel the vibration" [punctuation added], with "feel" of course pronounced about the way most of us say "fill." Is that a Jerseyism? > Ben wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Bunch's "Good Vibrations," released in 1991, urges us to "Feel it! feel it! > Feel the vibration" [punctuation added] I'd argue that the two usages are distinct. Marky Mark (né Wahlberg) exhorts the listener to "feel it", where "it" has a clear referent, "the vibration". That's just your run-of-the-mill transitive "feel" ('to sense, be aware of, be affected by'). But Jay-Z raps, "I'm feelin' it... I know you're feelin' it" (no referent given for "it"), where "feelin' it" is used to express an abstract state of enjoyment. It's comparable to a previous generation's "dig it" (can you dig it?), but using the progressive aspect (inflected "be" + V-ing) that stative verbs can take in AAVE -- hence "I'm diggin'/feelin'/lovin' it". > with "feel" of course pronounced about > the way most of us say "fill." Is that a Jerseyism? Wha? Mark Wahlberg's from Boston. In Labov's survey, the merger of /i/ and /I/ before /l/ was found mostly in the South, with scattered examples in the West and North Midland: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/Map4.html http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/Map6.html But for kids coming of age in the '80s like Wahlberg, I think the model was rilly Southern Californian. Ben wrote: >[I wrote:] >>with "feel" of course pronounced about the way most >>of us say "fill." Is that a Jerseyism? > >Wha? Mark Wahlberg's from Boston. He's performing in a rappish dialect. >In Labov's survey, the merger of /i/ and /I/ before /l/ was >found mostly in the South, with scattered examples in the >West and North Midland. The merger I have in mind doesn't register in the Southern dialects I know (but then I haven't heard them all). It seems to go in tandem with the merger that results in <tell> where most of us have <tail>. CNBC has several announcers for whom <feel> is almost <fill> and <tail> is almost <tell>, and its studio is in New Jersey, so I was wondering if those announcers were local folk, or at least Easterners. > Ben wrote: > >[I wrote:] [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > New Jersey, so I was wondering if those announcers were local folk, or at least > Easterners. Yes, CNBC broadcasts from Fort Lee and MSNBC from Secaucus, but these are national networks so you probably won't hear "local folk". These days you'd be hard-pressed to hear a Jersey accent even on WOR of Secaucus, a local station that for a while was a cable "superstation"-- back in the day they used the local pronunciation of ['si,kOk@s] but now use the standard [s@'kOk@s]. Both mergers you mention (feel-fill and tail-tell) are typical of certain regions of the South, particularly western North Carolina (the Raleigh-Durham area) and west Texas. But Labov's maps show that these are both ongoing mergers in various other parts of the country, including the North Midland and the West Coast: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/Map4.html http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/Map7.html As these mergers are not at all typical of the Northeast, I'm guessing that both Mark W. and CNBC's broadcasters are most likely influenced by West Coast phonological shifts. Ben wrote: >Both mergers you mention (feel-fill and tail-tell) are typical >of certain regions of the South, particularly western North >Carolina (the Raleigh-Durham area) and west Texas. The announcers I'm remembering don't "sound Southern." >But Labov's maps show that these are both ongoing >mergers in various other parts of the country, including >the North Midland and the West Coast: . . . As these >mergers are not at all typical of the Northeast, I'm guessing >that both Mark W. and CNBC's broadcasters are most >likely influenced by West Coast phonological shifts. OK, here's what let's do: next time I hear these announcers, I'll jot their names down and send them an email asking about their native regions. Because of the holidays, delays are possible. Watch this space! > Yes, CNBC broadcasts from Fort Lee and MSNBC from Secaucus, but these > are national networks so you probably won't hear "local folk". These > days you'd be hard-pressed to hear a Jersey accent even on WOR of > Secaucus, a local station that for a while was a cable "superstation"-- > back in the day they used the local pronunciation of ['si,kOk@s] but now > use the standard [s@'kOk@s]. You are correct, sir. BTW, in _Goodfellas_ Joe Pesci uses the ['si,kOk@s] pronunciation. Pesci himself grew up in Jersey, but he was playing a character from East New York (a neighborhood of Brooklyn [...]). AFAIK, the [s@'kOk@s] pronunciation is the only one known to New York speakers. Ross Howard take note. Fontana: >You are correct, sir. BTW, in _Goodfellas_ Joe Pesci uses the ['si,kOk@s] >pronunciation. Pesci himself grew up in Jersey, but he was playing a >character from East New York (a neighborhood of Brooklyn [...]). AFAIK, >the [s@'kOk@s] pronunciation is the only one known to New York speakers. I've read the AUE FAQ, including the pronunciation guide. I get what the "schwa" is supposed to represent now. "O" as in "lemon". But what's the "i" sound? I think I say Secaucus as "s@kOk@s". How's the other way? > Fontana: >> You are correct, sir. BTW, in _Goodfellas_ Joe Pesci uses the >> ['si,kOk@s] pronunciation. Pesci himself grew up in Jersey, but he [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > what's the "i" sound? I think I say Secaucus as "s@kOk@s". How's > the other way? The "i" is as in "Eat". See the ASCII IPA chart at http://www.alt-usage-english.org/ipa/ascii_ipa_american_only.shtml SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > Fontana: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "schwa" is supposed to represent now. "O" as in "lemon". But what's the "i" > sound? I think I say Secaucus as "s@kOk@s". How's the other way? The other way is "SEE-caucus" (as opposed to "sa-CAU-cus"). >> Yes, CNBC broadcasts from Fort Lee and MSNBC from Secaucus, but these >> are national networks so you probably won't hear "local folk". These [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >the [s@'kOk@s] pronunciation is the only one known to New York speakers. >Ross Howard take note. Ross Howard is too busy flicking furrowed-browed through his *Goodfellas* screenplay to try and find where the hell Secaucus was even mentioned to do any note-taking yet. Meanwhile, is there any connection with that old Jersey "i"-not-schwa and the old Brooklyn "i"-not-schwa of the Sorvinine "Byoo-dee-ful", of which note had been taken long before we discussed it? Are there any other words whose pronunciation in the AOEOTLCIA gets an "i" where it'd be a schwa in most non-NY AmE? And what happened to Joe Pesci's career, which seems to have gone swiftly down the bathroom? Is he going to be one of those actors -- like Elliot Gould and James Caan -- who takes a 20-year break before returning out of the blue to claim True Icon status? -- Ross Howard > >> Yes, CNBC broadcasts from Fort Lee and MSNBC from Secaucus, but these > >> are national networks so you probably won't hear "local folk". These [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > *Goodfellas* screenplay to try and find where the hell Secaucus was > even mentioned to do any note-taking yet. It's in the famous scene where Henry (Ray Liotta) says to Tommy (Joe Pesci) "You're really funny", and Tommy says "Funny how? Do I make you laugh? Do I amuse you?" etc. What Henry found funny was the story Tommy had been telling, something about hiding out in the weeds after "the bank job in See-caucus". I think "the weeds" in gangster lingo refers to New Jersey itself, or maybe to the euphemistically-named Meadowlands or something. Most of eastern New Jersey is, indeed, weed-choked marshlands. (Sorry Young Joey!) > Meanwhile, is there any connection with that old Jersey "i"-not-schwa > and the old Brooklyn "i"-not-schwa of the Sorvinine "Byoo-dee-ful", of > which note had been taken long before we discussed it? No, I'm sure there's no connection there. I think this is more like the pronunciation of "Detroit" -- in some dialects (regional, social, generational) it's "DEE-troit", but the Standard AmE pronunciation is "d@-TROIT". > Are there any > other words whose pronunciation in the AOEOTLCIA gets an "i" where > it'd be a schwa in most non-NY AmE? Well, we were recently discussing "cauliflower", and I was surprised to learn that the pronunciation I use, /kAliflaUR/, is not GenAm -- the GenAm use /I/ supposedly (I can't see how that wouldn't resolve to a schwa in dis day an' age). So I'd say that "cauliflower" should be considered another example of this. What's interesting is that I'm well aware of "beauty-ful" being a palaeo-New Yorkism, one which not only isn't used in Postwar Prestige speech, but also isn't used in postwar *nonprestige* speech. But I wasn't aware of "collie-flower" being a regional pronunciation too, and that's used by everyone, prestige and non-prestige alike, if I'm any guide. > And what happened to Joe Pesci's career, which seems to have gone > swiftly down the bathroom? Is he going to be one of those actors -- > like Elliot Gould and James Caan -- who takes a 20-year break before > returning out of the blue to claim True Icon status? I think, unfortunately, he's been typecast, even though he's had a number of acclaimed non-Tommy-D-like roles in lesser-known films. Meanwhile, I think the public's blood-lust for Italiansploitation[TM] films has, finally, been dropping, despite the televisional success of things like _The Sopranos_. I never thought I'd live to see the day, but on regular network TV crime shows today the typical mobster is now "Russian" (often with a scary-looking beard), and always with some sort of connection to Brighton Beach (a neighborhood of Brooklyn [Fourth Largest City in America]). I'll let Coop and his DIL fight that battle. On the new ABC series _Line of Fire_, set somewhere in Virginia, the mobster boss character is actually Jewish, with an Irish surname ("Malloy"). > Meanwhile, I >think the public's blood-lust for Italiansploitation[TM] films has, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >series _Line of Fire_, set somewhere in Virginia, the mobster boss >character is actually Jewish, with an Irish surname ("Malloy"). Here's another puzzle: why for *The Sopranos* they cast an E-Streeter whose name is Van Zandt ,when on the other side of the same stage there's a certain Dan Federici. (Not that S. v.Z. AKA Little Steven AKA Miami Steve doesn't turn in a good job, at least judging from the few snippets I've seen.) That said, the mobbed-uppest-looking NJ rocker is surely neither Stevie nor Dan, but their pal from The Shore, "Southside" Johnny. (The sweaty-sweatshirted guy on the left here:) www.southsidejohnny.org/newrelease/photos/8-09-03_Bushkill_PA/261.jpg Pls confirm that the garment worn by the guy on the right is -- as worn by said guy -- the ultimate "warm-up jacket". -- Ross Howard >Pls confirm that the garment worn by the guy on the right is -- as >worn by said guy -- the ultimate "warm-up jacket". Nope. I should clean those glasses I never wear. It's not a warm-up jacket, but what *is* it -- an old-style baseball shirt gone terribly wrong? -- Ross Howard > > >> Yes, CNBC broadcasts from Fort Lee and MSNBC from Secaucus, but these > > >> are national networks so you probably won't hear "local folk". These [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > >AFAIK, the [s@'kOk@s] pronunciation is the only one known to New York > > >speakers. Ross Howard take note. [...] > > Meanwhile, is there any connection with that old Jersey "i"-not-schwa > > and the old Brooklyn "i"-not-schwa of the Sorvinine "Byoo-dee-ful", of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > generational) it's "DEE-troit", but the Standard AmE pronunciation is > "d@-TROIT". In the case of ['si,kOk@s] it's notable that the locals also pronounce the nearby towns of Weehawken ['wi,hOk@n] and Hoboken ['hoU,boUk@n] with first-syllable stress. All three are (Dutch?) corruptions of Lenni Lenape names. According to _Jersey City And Its Historic Sites_ by Harriet Phillips Eaton (1899), _Secaucus_ is from _Siskakes_ or _Sikakes_ 'the place where the snake hides', _Weehawken_ is from _Awiehaken_ 'at the end of (the Palisades)', and _Hoboken_ is from _Hopoghan Hackingh_ 'the land of the tobacco pipe'. http://www.getnj.com/jchist/16a.shtml > In the case of ['si,kOk@s] it's notable that the locals also pronounce the > nearby towns of Weehawken ['wi,hOk@n] and Hoboken ['hoU,boUk@n] with > first-syllable stress. I've never lived in New Jersey but it's always been my intuition to pronounce "Secaucus" and "Weehawken" with first-syllable stress. Am I wrong to do so? ("Hoboken" can go either way for me.) -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom Aaron: >I've never lived in New Jersey but it's always been my intuition to >pronounce "Secaucus" and "Weehawken" with first-syllable stress. Am I >wrong to do so? ("Hoboken" can go either way for me.) A question out of curiousity: WHY would people from out of state ever have to pronounce these towns' names (let alone ever HEARD of them)? DE781 filted: >Aaron: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >A question out of curiousity: WHY would people from out of state ever have to >pronounce these towns' names (let alone ever HEARD of them)? Might be singing them: "Be a hobo and go with me/from Hoboken to the sea"....r > Aaron: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > A question out of curiousity: WHY would people from out of state ever > have to pronounce these towns' names (let alone ever HEARD of them)? They are mentioned in books and articles and in atlases, not to mention on road signs in New Jersey. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > > Aaron: > >>I've never lived in New Jersey but it's always been my intuition to > >>pronounce "Secaucus" and "Weehawken" with first-syllable stress. Am I > >>wrong to do so? ("Hoboken" can go either way for me.) > > A question out of curiousity: WHY would people from out of state ever > > have to pronounce these towns' names (let alone ever HEARD of them)? > They are mentioned in books and articles and in atlases, not to mention on > road signs in New Jersey. I used to have occasional reason to meantion Piscataway. That was where we wrote to to get certain technical publications: IEEE stuff, if I'm rememberng correctly. There was one time when a department secretary didn't want to believe there was such a place when someone asked her to address a letter there. I think someone may have asked her if she knew a better way to get rid of an annoying feline. [ . . . ] > I used to have occasional reason to [*]meantion[*] Piscataway. Mention. exw6sxq@earthlink.net spake thus: > > > > Aaron: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I think someone may have asked her if she knew a better way > to get rid of an annoying feline. I have actually been to Piscataway - some of the other counsellors at my summer camp came from there, and I went back to stay with one of them for a few days. I can't remember much about it though. SignatureDavid ===== >> A question out of curiousity: WHY would people from out of state ever >> have to pronounce these towns' names (let alone ever HEARD of them)? > >They are mentioned in books and articles and in atlases, not to mention on >road signs in New Jersey. Right. But who sits down and studies random NJ towns in atlases? And why would someone from Britain ever have heard of them, for example? And why would anyone ever drive through those towns? I know they're near NYC, but there's nothing special about them themselves. I can't think of highways that go through them. It would be similar to people from Britain and Australia having heard of, and having need to pronounce, my town. >>> A question out of curiousity: WHY would people from out of state ever >>> have to pronounce these towns' names (let alone ever HEARD of them)? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >through them. It would be similar to people from Britain and Australia having >heard of, and having need to pronounce, my town. There are plenty of place-name enthusiasts, who can tell you all about Steeple Bumpstead, Six Mile Bottom, Farleigh Wallop and Great Snoring. Or, for that matter, Lick Skillet, Whynot, Humptulips, or Dead Bastard Peak. Not to mention argue about the pronunciation of Natchitoches or Schagticoke. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". [DE781 said:] >>> A question out of curiousity: WHY would people from out of state ever >>> have to pronounce these towns' names (let alone ever HEARD of them)? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Right. But who sits down and studies random NJ towns in atlases? Ah, you've found me out! One day I when I was 12 I sat down with an atlas and decided to learn the names of all the humorously-named towns in New Jersey! Took me hours! ...You can believe that, or you can believe that I've driven through New Jersey frequently on the N.J. Turnpike and the G.S. Parkway, and seen road signs pointing to names of various towns; and that the vague knowledge of these names thus gleaned has been occasionally reinforced by seeing passing references to such towns in novels, newspapers, et al. Or you can believe both, if you want. It doesn't really matter to me. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > Aaron: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > A question out of curiousity: WHY would people from out of state ever have to > pronounce these towns' names (let alone ever HEARD of them)? Well, for Hoboken, Frank Sinatra, the Snoop Dawg of an earlier generation, was from there. (As is Joey Pantoliano of CBS's _The Handler_, BTW. Now he has a peculiar accent.) As for Weehawken, it's pretty obscure -- I think you could easily encounter it on a road sign or a map, tho'. BTW, what's your favorite weird New Jersey place name, Young Joey? "Cheesequake" isn't bad, but I think "Netcong" is the best. >> Aaron: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >was from there. (As is Joey Pantoliano of CBS's _The Handler_, BTW. Now >he has a peculiar accent.) Also on June 19, 1846, the Knickerbockers' second team lost 23-1 to the New York Base Ball Club in the first official, prearranged match between two clubs at Elysian Fields, Hoboken. >As for Weehawken, it's pretty obscure -- I think you could easily >encounter it on a road sign or a map, tho'. Alexander Hamilton had no trouble finding it when he was shot by Aaron Burr! Dueling was illegal in NY (an early quality-of-life crime) so they went across the river. >BTW, what's your favorite weird New Jersey place name, Young Joey? >"Cheesequake" isn't bad, but I think "Netcong" is the best. My vote is for Ho-Ho-Kus. Brian Wickham Brian: >Alexander Hamilton had no trouble finding it when he was shot by Aaron >Burr! >Dueling was illegal in NY (an early quality-of-life crime) so >they went across the river. There we go! You read my mind! No, no, about them travelling across the river. One of them was DEFINITELY from the town too (Weehawken, it is?). The place where Aaron Burr died is now a cool little park. But that bitch's ghost probably haunts it. >My vote is for Ho-Ho-Kus. See? How do you people know these towns? >Brian: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >place where Aaron Burr died is now a cool little park. But that bitch's ghost >probably haunts it. It was Hamilton who did the dying. Burr lived another 32 years, and had many adventures, including being tried and acquitted for treason. Burr, I think, was a New Yorker by birth. Hamilton was born in the West Indies. They both made their political careers in New York. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". > It was Hamilton who did the dying. Burr lived another 32 years, and > had many adventures, including being tried and acquitted for treason. > Burr, I think, was a New Yorker by birth. Hamilton was born in the > West Indies. Burr was not a New Yorker by birth, and was not much of a New Yorker period. He was, like Young Joey, a Jerseyite. He was born in Newark and seems to have been raised in New Jersey, and doesn't seem to have spent much time in New York city till he was in his 30s (NTTAWWT). Alex Hamilton was more of a New Yorker, having been based in New York since entering King's College (now Columbia University) when he was 18 or so. >Brian: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >See? How do you people know these towns? From the Andrews Sisters recording of the same name? Brian > BTW, what's your favorite weird New Jersey place name, Young Joey? > "Cheesequake" isn't bad, but I think "Netcong" is the best. Mahwah and Monmouth are up there. -- Mike Nitabach Nitabach: >Mahwah and Monmouth are up there. "Monmouth" isn't weird. The "n" is silent. de781@aol.com (DE781) wrote in news:20031227153036.21716.00000993@mb- m26.aol.com: > Nitabach: > >>Mahwah and Monmouth are up there. > > "Monmouth" isn't weird. The "n" is silent. The "n" in "Monmouth" is not silent. -- Mike Nitabach >> Nitabach: >>> Mahwah and Monmouth are up there. >> >> "Monmouth" isn't weird. The "n" is silent. > > The "n" in "Monmouth" is not silent. As a former resident of Fort Monmouth, I agree with you. It is *almost* silent, though. I see that Red Bank was mentioned in a news feature on TV hereabouts (about their free clinic). It and Long Branch used to be my stomping grounds for a while. I have even gotten off the train at the Little Silver station and walked all the way across the Fort to the front of it, where my barracks was. Long walk. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>> Nitabach: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > As a former resident of Fort Monmouth, I agree with you. It is > *almost* silent, though. Yep. I imagine there is a technical term for an almost-silent phoneme such as this, but I don't know what it is. -- Mike Nitabach >>>> Nitabach: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Yep. I imagine there is a technical term for an almost-silent phoneme >such as this, but I don't know what it is. It's certainly not silent in some dialects of BrE. Mon-muth has a very pronounced 'n' in mine. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England Skitt: >I see that Red Bank was mentioned in a news feature on TV hereabouts (about >their free clinic). It and Long Branch used to be my stomping grounds for a >while. I have even gotten off the train at the Little Silver station and >walked all the way across the Fort to the front of it, where my barracks >was. Long walk. See Fontana? This is what I mean about EVERYONE being from the same area. Even Skitt, from Latvia, has lived in NJ at some point in his life. How come more of you people who've had experience in the tri-state area aren't too ghetto from it? I'm not asking you really, Skitt, since you seem quite ghetto, especially for your age. > Skitt: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > tri-state area aren't too ghetto from it? I'm not asking you really, > Skitt, since you seem quite ghetto, especially for your age. Well, yeah. I didn't have much choice in it, as it was the US Army that placed me at Fort Monmouth. Other than that, I have stayed briefly in Maple Shade and also in Cherry Hill, but that was so I could attend to business (update some software for GE at their facility in Camden). SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > See Fontana? This is what I mean about EVERYONE being from the same area. > Even Skitt, from Latvia, has lived in NJ at some point in his life. Remember, Young Joey, that the New York Metropolitan Area -- what you or Fran Kemmish might prefer to call "the Tri-State Area" (though there are a few other instances of that thing) -- is the Largest Metropolitan Area in America. 'Nuff said. Nitabach: >> "Monmouth" isn't weird. The "n" is silent. > >The "n" in "Monmouth" is not silent. Yes it is. At least in the proper, NJ pronunciation. "MOM-ith". de781@aol.com (DE781) wrote in news:20031228000613.04365.00001780@mb- m29.aol.com: > Nitabach: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yes it is. At least in the proper, NJ pronunciation. "MOM-ith". The only New Jerseyans I have ever heard pronounce "Monmouth" without any "n" sound at all have either had head colds or been extremely drunk. -- Mike Nitabach Fontana: >Well, for Hoboken, Frank Sinatra, the Snoop Dawg of an earlier generation, >was from there. (As is Joey Pantoliano of CBS's _The Handler_, BTW. Now >he has a peculiar accent.) Sinatra was cool! Except that whole mafioso thing. The best thing relating to Frank Sinatra was the SNL skit where he did the duets with Bono, Kenny G, Carnie, etc. He beat up Bono and Rod Stewart, he called Anita Baker a ho, and he called Sinead O'Conner "Sinbad" (remember him?), and then beat her up for ripping up the pope! The 90's was great! I went to school in the 90's, I had good credit in the 90's, and Michael Jackson was black in the 90's!! BTW, Frank Sinatra's REAL duets video with Bono was pretty cool too. I wish f.cking MTV2 still played it every once in a while! MTV2 SUCKS! >As for Weehawken, it's pretty obscure -- I think you could easily >encounter it on a road sign or a map, tho'. Yeah, but I've encountered HUNDREDS of signs with town names on them. I don't remember all the towns I pass through once or twice on some highway somewhere. Why would people remember "Weehawken"? BTW, which one is the town with Aaron Burr? I guess I could kinda understand that one being well-known, sort of, although the TOWNS of important events in history generally aren't taught and/or remembered--which town was Burr anyway: Hoboken or Weehawken? >BTW, what's your favorite weird New Jersey place name, Young Joey? Weird NJ place name? Huh? Elizabeth is pretty weird and nasty. >"Cheesequake" isn't bad, but I think "Netcong" is the best. "Cheesequake" kind of scares me? Is that on the way down the shore? Whenever I see that sign, it reminds me of that book where the town always has food weather. I think of a cheesecake earthquake, or a big moutain ridge made out of cheesecake. Sorry, but that's just how I imagine that town looking. Zimms: >In the case of ['si,kOk@s] it's notable that the locals also pronounce the >nearby towns of Weehawken ['wi,hOk@n] and Hoboken ['hoU,boUk@n] with >first-syllable stress. Not just the locals. *I* say Weehawken & Hoboken with the stress on the first syllable! EVERYONE does. How else can they be said? I don't say Secaucus that way though. It sounds ghetto. "SEE-cawk-us"? I say "suh-CAWK-uhs". >and _Hoboken_ is from _Hopoghan Hackingh_ 'the land of the >tobacco pipe'. Now THAT ghetto! >Zimms: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Not just the locals. *I* say Weehawken & Hoboken with the stress on the first >syllable! EVERYONE does. How else can they be said? With the stress on the "bo", which is how I would say it. I guess that you could say that I am from out-of-state. SignatureMark Browne The one thing that they REALLY couldn't stand... was a smartarse The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams > Zimms: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not just the locals. *I* say Weehawken & Hoboken with the stress on the > first syllable! EVERYONE does. How else can they be said? "Weehawken" could conceivably be pronounced with second-syllable stress as [w@'hOk@n] (wuh-HAW-ken), though the double e in the first syllable seems to encourage the stress to fall there. I'm trying to think of a similar place name to compare it to-- all I can think of is Conshohocken [,kOnS@'hOk@n], a town outside of Philadelphia. As for pronouncing "Hoboken" with second-syllable stress, you might recall the Bugs Bunny cartoon ("8 Ball Bunny") where Bugs delivers a penguin to Antarctica. When the penguin gives him a flyer announcing that he's "the only Hoboken-born penguin in captivity", Bugs screams, "[,hoU'boUk@n]?! Ooh, I'm dyin' again!" http://www.earthstation1.com/WBCartoonFiles/WB_Wavs/bbhobokn.wav > As for pronouncing "Hoboken" with second-syllable stress, you might recall > the Bugs Bunny cartoon ("8 Ball Bunny") where Bugs delivers a penguin to > Antarctica. When the penguin gives him a flyer announcing that he's "the > only Hoboken-born penguin in captivity", Bugs screams, "[,hoU'boUk@n]?! > Ooh, I'm dyin' again!" I remember another Bugs Bunny cartoon (= BrE "animated cartoon"? "animated film"? EMWTK(IWTK)) where, at the end, you see a ship, a tramp steamer I suppose, filled with hoboes, and the ship is named the "HOBO-KEN". rfontana@alumni.wesleyan.edu spake thus: > > As for pronouncing "Hoboken" with second-syllable stress, you might recall > > the Bugs Bunny cartoon ("8 Ball Bunny") where Bugs delivers a penguin to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I remember another Bugs Bunny cartoon (= BrE "animated cartoon"? > "animated film"? EMWTK(IWTK)) "cartoon" is fine. We are able to distinguish between the animated and printed varieties, given enough context. > where, at the end, you see a ship, a tramp > steamer I suppose, filled with hoboes, and the ship is named the > "HOBO-KEN". SignatureDavid ===== > Zimms: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not just the locals. *I* say Weehawken & Hoboken with the stress on the first > syllable! EVERYONE does. How else can they be said? I can easily see someone stressing the second syllable for both. In fact, that's how *I* used to mispronounce "Hoboken", because Hoboken used to be such an obscure and unimportant place that no one ever used to say its name. It only stopped being so obscure during the early 1980s, when high Manhattan rents forced some [anti-Brooklyn] yuppies to investigate the situation across the river. Now, twenty-odd years later, Hoboken is still pretty obscure and unimportant, only a little less so than it was back in the day. With "Weehawken", I've always pronounced it correctly, but by accident. BTW, my father always used to pronounce Hoboken as "Bayonne". I understand the real Bayonne is famous for its hams. >> Zimms: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >BTW, my father always used to pronounce Hoboken as "Bayonne". I >understand the real Bayonne is famous for its hams. Unless I'm misinterpreting I'm not sure I agree with everyone here. I have always heard, and pronounced Hoboken as if it were two words, "Hoe Boken", with Boken as in "spoken". The faster you say it the more the stress in on the "Hoe" but it still comes out as two words. This is quite different from Weehawken which has a strong accent on the "Wee" and no emphasis on the other two syllables. I learned to pronounce both from New Yorkers born before WW1 and from their relatives in the Jersey City area. Brian Wickham Brian Wickham <bwickham@NO~SPAM.nyc.rr.com> wrote on 26 Dec 2003: >>> Zimms: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>Hoboken used to be such an obscure and unimportant place that no >>one ever used to say its name. Hoboken has been famous for the past 70 years as the birthplace of Frank Sinatra. If you knew anything about New Jersey, you'd have known that. >>It only stopped being so obscure >>during the early 1980s, when high Manhattan rents forced some >>[anti-Brooklyn] yuppies to investigate the situation across the >>river. Now, twenty-odd years later, Hoboken is still pretty >>obscure and unimportant, only a little less so than it was back in >>the day. You must think the world began when you were born. Maybe for you it did, but it's been around a lot longer than you have. >>With "Weehawken", I've always pronounced it correctly, but by >>accident. BTW, my father always used to pronounce Hoboken as >>"Bayonne". I understand the real Bayonne is famous for its hams. Nah. It's famous for me, just as Hoboken is famous for the other Frank --- Sinatra. > Unless I'm misinterpreting I'm not sure I agree with everyone > here. I have always heard, and pronounced Hoboken as if it were > two words, "Hoe Boken", with Boken as in "spoken". The faster you > say it the more the stress in on the "Hoe" but it still comes out > as two words. I've always pronounced Hoboken and Weehawken with the same stress pattern. Maybe that's because I was born in Bayonne and grew up in New Jersey. On the trains --- my mother used to take the trains a lot and she took me and my sister along --- the announcements always stressed the first syllable only. > This is quite different from Weehawken which has a strong accent > on the "Wee" and no emphasis on the other two syllables. > > I learned to pronounce both from New Yorkers born before WW1 and > from their relatives in the Jersey City area. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > Hoboken has been famous for the past 70 years as the birthplace of > Frank Sinatra. If you knew anything about New Jersey, you'd have [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You must think the world began when you were born. Maybe for you it > did, but it's been around a lot longer than you have. True, back when I were young, I used to be sort of like Young Joey in that way, thinkin' that everything began after Time Immemorial. However, I gradually learned the post-Tet lesson, the lesson of _Happy Days_ and all that (something that *some* lexicographers haven't learned). But yes, I never really appreciated Frank Sinatra much. Even when I started lookin' into the music of the pre-Suez age and its direct legacy, I scoffed at Sinatra as a singer. I was always like, "He's a Billie Holiday<sp> ripoff". This, I later learned, was somewhat unfair, but he still isn't my favorite singer. I don't really like that whole postwar poppy-swingy-post-swing-pop idiom TBH. OTOH, I don't know if the fact that Sinatra grew up in Hoboken is enough to make it an important place. I mean, when I think of musicians or singers I like, half the time I don't even know where they're from. Sometimes it's important, too, like if they grew up in a particular place that was fostering a particular sort of local musical style. There are lots of examples of that. Funny I should be mentioning this, because Hoboken later on did become famous for being the center of a so-called "indie rock" scene, centered around a club called Maxwell's. This was a direct and immediate consequence of the yuppie flight to Hoboken that I mentioned. (Unless it was the other way around.) Wasn't that French beer guy, that Jelenc person, heavy into that whole scene? Where *is* that fellow? R F <rfontana@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote on 26 Dec 2003: >> Hoboken has been famous for the past 70 years as the birthplace >> of Frank Sinatra. If you knew anything about New Jersey, you'd [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > French beer guy, that Jelenc person, heavy into that whole scene? > Where *is* that fellow? Did I get the attributions wrong, Richard? I thought I was replying to YJ and not to you. If I screwed up, I apologize. Perhaps I should have known better: There were no shouts in those paragraphs. Any venom injected into your virtual veins was unintentional; it was all fangmarked for the dung-beetle boy. Digital warfare can get sloppy, can it not? SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. BITCHY CHINK: >Did I get the attributions wrong, Richard? I thought I was replying >to YJ and not to you. OMFG!! LOLOLOLOL! COOPER, THIS PROVES WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SAYING ABOUT THE CHINK ALL ALONG!! WHERE ARE YOU FOOLS NOW? NOT SO QUICK TO JUMP TO YOUR CHINK'S DEFENSE, ARE YOU!? You f.cking damned hypocrites! The a.shole ADMITTED that he attacked what was said ONLY because he thought I wrote it!! Now, that we ALL know Fontana knows his sh.t, we KNOW that this bitch is a poser, tool, hypocrite, and EVERYTHING else I & Cooper EVER accused him of being! Let's see if these bastards rush to condemn FRANKE, EH, Coop? Let's see if they apologize to us for being angry at us for speaking the TRUTH about him! The world is full of hypocrites! You'd all best make sure you're on the RIGHT side! >Perhaps I should >have known better: There were no shouts in those paragraphs. Ha! PROOF that I DON'T ALWAYS write with emphasis! The tool's arguments against me are shattering one by one! I KNEW I'd catch you morons at your own deception! Pity, considering how LITTLE you all know about me still! >Any >venom injected into your virtual veins was unintentional; it was all >fangmarked for the dung-beetle boy. Digital warfare can get sloppy, >can it not? Ha! So the gook ADMITS that he views me and you as evil, Cooper, and targets in a war? This just gets better and better! Maybe he so horny and some chinkette was fucky sucky, fucky sucky sucky him when he was responding. After all, EVERYONE here knows there's NO EXCUSE for misattributing! LOL! The hypocrite! He bashed FONTANA'S words and Fontana should be LIVID! He bashed WORDS--not a person! Words! Someone non-hypocritical (i.e. ME) would not EVER recant an opinion. Cooper doesn't seem the type to either. Because we "real" people--we reply to the WORDS, not the person. I like Fontana a LOT, but when he says something stupid, I'll let him know! I wish DEATH on the chink, but IF he ever were to say something sensible, I'd have to choice but to agree. Something youse hypocrites need to learn! Fontana: >OTOH, I don't know if the fact that Sinatra grew up in Hoboken is enough >to make it an important place. I mean, when I think of musicians or >singers I like, half the time I don't even know where they're from. You tell his a.s! >Sometimes it's important, too, like if they grew up in a particular place >that was fostering a particular sort of local musical style. Like Ludacris and Outkast in the dirrrty south! Nelly and the St. Lunatics in St. Louis! Tupac, Dre, NWA in Compton! And, most importantly, Run-DMC in the EAST, south Bronx, Compton, etc! REPRESENT! REPRESENT! Franke: >Hoboken has been famous for the past 70 years as the birthplace of >Frank Sinatra. If you knew anything about New Jersey, you'd have >known that. Oh shut up! Fontana, don't listen to this ponce! Hoboken being "famous" for being Sinatra's hometown is like how Nutley is "famous" for being Martha Stewart's birthplace. NO ONE outside the tri-state area has any reason to know of these TOWNS--they ain't even cities. And Fontana knows a HELL of a lot about NJ! >You must think the world began when you were born. Maybe for you it >did, but it's been around a lot longer than you have. He's ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! Hoboken is POINTLESS. I think the only reason it MIGHT be known to people in NYC is that famous steakhouse. I'd doubt people from California would know of that though. >Nah. It's famous for me LOL! In your dreams! >I've always pronounced Hoboken and Weehawken with the same stress >pattern. Same. Brian: >Unless I'm misinterpreting I'm not sure I agree with everyone here. I >have always heard, and pronounced Hoboken as if it were two words, >"Hoe Boken", with Boken as in "spoken". The faster you say it the >more the stress in on the "Hoe" but it still comes out as two words. I guess I say it kind of similarly. I don't exactly know what you mean by "faster". Do you pause between "Ho" (you's a ho!) and "Boken", or when you're using "Hoboken" in an actual sentence does it just come out so fast that it sounds ALMOST like one full word, with a very brief pause between the "Ho" and "Boken" (almost like HO'Boken)? And, I DEFINITELY put the overall stress on the "Ho", with sort of a more minor stress on "Bo". It's kind of like "hobo" with "kin" at the end; so the "ho" and "bo" have ALMOST the same amount of stress, but the "ho" is slightly more emphasized. Is this what you do? >This is quite different from Weehawken which has a strong accent on >the "Wee" and no emphasis on the other two syllables. I wouldn't say "quite different". To me, the corresponding three syllables between the words seem to have the same stress. >I learned to pronounce both from New Yorkers born before WW1 and from >their relatives in the Jersey City area. How come everyone here seems to either be from the NYC area or have relatives in that area? > How come everyone here seems to either be from the NYC area or have relatives > in that area? You serious? We a minority here. Fontana: >> How come everyone here seems to either be from the NYC area or have >relatives >> in that area? > >You serious? We a minority here. Ghetto! Props! Are we really though? It seems like almost everone is familiar with the NYC area. I never would have guessed that Franke, of all people, is from NJ, for example. > > How come everyone here seems to either be from the NYC area > > or have relatives in that area? > You serious? We a minority here. I had relatives in Brooklyn, on Myrtle Avenue, whom I visited a couple of times. Later, they moved to Far Rockaway Point, where they died. In 1960, I humped my wife-to-be in a motel in Jamaica, but I never ran into Mr. Valentine there. I also have very fond(ling) memories of New Jersey, where I got laid in the morning in Saddle Brook and later that day in Princeton. SignatureReinhold (Rey) Aman À la recherche du temps perdu >Brian: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >with "kin" at the end; so the "ho" and "bo" have ALMOST the same amount of >stress, but the "ho" is slightly more emphasized. Is this what you do? Yes. >>This is quite different from Weehawken which has a strong accent on >>the "Wee" and no emphasis on the other two syllables. > >I wouldn't say "quite different". To me, the corresponding three syllables >between the words seem to have the same stress. I'll concede. But sometimes I say it with much less stress on the "hawk". I suppose it's because "Wee" is easier to stress than "Ho", at least for my speech pattern. >>I learned to pronounce both from New Yorkers born before WW1 and from >>their relatives in the Jersey City area. > >How come everyone here seems to either be from the NYC area or have relatives >in that area? I was going to comment but thought better of it. Brian >>> In the case of ['si,kOk@s] it's notable that the locals also >>> pronounce the nearby towns of Weehawken ['wi,hOk@n] and Hoboken [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > less so than it was back in > the day. [...] If it hadn't been for "Private Secretary," a 1950s-era TV series starring Ann Sothern, I might never have heard "Hoboken" being spoken. Susie MacNamara's (Ann's) friend Sylvia (actress's name forgotten, but Google says it's Joan Banks) lived there. The accent for Hoboken was on the first syllable, HOE, with "boken" rhyming with, "broken," "token," and, well, "spoken." Please pardon the lack of the usual aue pronunciation symbols. ASCII IPA remains a mystery to me -- and I do not foresee that situation changing. I tried for a while, but when people start talking about sounds that come from the back of the throat and others being frontal, and about standing in front of mirrors to see how their mouth is for certain sounds, I run for the exit. And speaking of the mouth, as I just was, I'm sick of seeing Hussein's. Having a limited amount of video doesn't mean that that limited amount should run almost constantly. Oh, and Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and Happy (Other) Holidays to all who read this. SignatureMaria Conlon Please send any email to the Hot Mail address. >I can easily see someone stressing the second syllable for both. In fact, >that's how *I* used to mispronounce "Hoboken", because Hoboken used to be >such an obscure and unimportant place that no one ever used to say its >name. Fontana, it's STILL unimportant and ghetto. Why did you ever use to have to say it? >It only stopped being so obscure during the early 1980s, when high >Manhattan rents forced some [anti-Brooklyn] yuppies to investigate the >situation across the river. Odd. So people from NYC migrated to HOBOKEN, of all places? WTF? >Now, twenty-odd years later, Hoboken is still >pretty obscure and unimportant, only a little less so than it was back in >the day. Exactly. So why do people in the Midwest and Britain and everything even have need to pronounce it? It's not like it's London or Washington. >BTW, my father always used to pronounce Hoboken as "Bayonne". I >understand the real Bayonne is famous for its hams. I'm guessing this is supposed to be a joke, but I don't get it. [RF:] > >It only stopped being so obscure during the early 1980s, when high > >Manhattan rents forced some [anti-Brooklyn] yuppies to investigate the > >situation across the river. > > Odd. So people from NYC migrated to HOBOKEN, of all places? WTF? Don't assume that they were people "from NYC". More likely they were natives of New Jersey, or the Middle West, or Texas (NTTAWWT) or some other Place. New York natives tend to have a phobia of New Jersey that prevents them from moving across the river (this might be more of a Brooklyn/Queens-native thing, tho'). > >Now, twenty-odd years later, Hoboken is still > >pretty obscure and unimportant, only a little less so than it was back in > >the day. > > Exactly. So why do people in the Midwest and Britain and everything even have > need to pronounce it? It's not like it's London or Washington. True. Frank Sinatra and Joey Pantoliano are from there, though. > >BTW, my father always used to pronounce Hoboken as "Bayonne". I > >understand the real Bayonne is famous for its hams. > > I'm guessing this is supposed to be a joke, but I don't get it. Not really an understandable joke. My father would say "Bayonne" if he meant "Hoboken". It was just one of those things. >[RF:] >> >It only stopped being so obscure during the early 1980s, when high [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >prevents them from moving across the river (this might be more of a >Brooklyn/Queens-native thing, tho'). That may be true since the end of WW2 but before that families moved out of Brooklyn or Manhattan to Jersey City and nearby areas in fairly decent numbers. The Hudson-Manhattan Tubes, now the PATH, and the many Hudson ferries made it possible to keep a job in NY and live in NJ. Brian Fonts: >> >It only stopped being so obscure during the early 1980s, when high >> >Manhattan rents forced some [anti-Brooklyn] yuppies to investigate the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Don't assume that they were people "from NYC". But, you said people moved to NJ from NYC to escape high rent? >New York natives tend to have a phobia of New Jersey that >prevents them from moving across the river Huh? What? Isn't it the other way around? Most people from NJ would NEVER want to live in the city. What's the point, when the suburb's less congested and noisy and dangerous? And upstate NY is just BORING. >Not really an understandable joke. My father would say "Bayonne" if he >meant "Hoboken". It was just one of those things. LOL...OK...But isn't Bayonne actually a lot GHETTOER than Hoboken? > Fonts: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > But, you said people moved to NJ from NYC to escape high rent? Sure. Wilbur Arnow moves from Illinois to Manhattan, can't pay the rent, moves to Hoboken or Jersey City. It's an old, old story. > >New York natives tend to have a phobia of New Jersey that > >prevents them from moving across the river > > Huh? What? Isn't it the other way around? Most people from NJ would NEVER > want to live in the city. What's the point, when the suburb's less congested > and noisy and dangerous? All's I can tell you is, over the past ten or more years there's been a steady stream of Jerseyites and Longislandites into Manhattan, at least, which must be having weird linguistic effects -- for the first time in a long time, maybe non-rhoticism is on the rise in Manhattan. That whole thing about the suburbs being less whatever, that's a typical Midwestern/Western view of things. Bwahahaha! Truth is, suburbs and rural places are way more dangerous than New York city (Largest City in America). Chicago, that's a whole nother story, though even Chicago seems rather safe, as long as you stay out of the South Side. OTOH, Norwalk, Connecticut, there you're taking your life into your hands. Not to mention wherever Doc Robin Bignall lives. > And upstate NY is just BORING. True, but the coneys are good. > >Not really an understandable joke. My father would say "Bayonne" if he > >meant "Hoboken". It was just one of those things. > > LOL...OK...But isn't Bayonne actually a lot GHETTOER than Hoboken? I'm not sure whether I've ever been to Bayonne, TTYTT. I may have driven by it, though. Fontana: >All's I can tell you is, over the past ten or more years there's been a >steady stream of Jerseyites and Longislandites into Manhattan, at least, >which must be having weird linguistic effects -- for the first time in a >long time, maybe non-rhoticism is on the rise in Manhattan. Hasn't non-rhoticism always been the standard way of speaking in Manhattan? Plus, people in NJ are rhotic, right? >I'm not sure whether I've ever been to Bayonne, TTYTT. I may have driven >by it, though. I don't think I've ever been to it, through it, by it, or anything else it. > In the case of ['si,kOk@s] it's notable that the locals also pronounce the > nearby towns of Weehawken ['wi,hOk@n] and Hoboken ['hoU,boUk@n] with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Palisades)', and _Hoboken_ is from _Hopoghan Hackingh_ 'the land of the > tobacco pipe'. If the Dutch were responsible, the Hoboken corruption was probably aided by "Hoboken" being a place name in the Netherlands, and "van Hoboken" was a surname borne by one of the important people in New Amsterdam I believe. > And what happened to Joe Pesci's career, which seems to have gone > swiftly down the bathroom? "Down the bathroom"? You used the same phrase on Dec 2, I notice. Is this a phrase you actually use or are you poking fun at Americans? SignatureOpus the Penguin (that's my real email addy) You snipped my sig! >> And what happened to Joe Pesci's career, which seems to have gone >> swiftly down the bathroom? > > "Down the bathroom"? You used the same phrase on Dec 2, I notice. Is > this a phrase you actually use or are you poking fun at Americans? Wadda you think? m. >>> And what happened to Joe Pesci's career, which seems to have gone >>> swiftly down the bathroom? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Wadda you think? > m. I think he's funny. He amuses me. SignatureOpus the Penguin (that's my real email addy) You snipped my sig! Zimmer: >I'd argue that the two usages are distinct. Marky Mark (né Wahlberg) >exhorts the listener to "feel it", where "it" has a clear referent, "the >vibration". That's just your run-of-the-mill transitive "feel" ('to >sense, be aware of, be affected by'). But Jay-Z raps, "I'm feelin' >it... I know you're feelin' it" (no referent given for "it"), Yes. That's exactly how I see it. Is it possible that Jay-Z's use (and the general new use of "feeling") came from the way Marky Mark used to use it? Even though Jay-Z doesn't specifically define "it", I think he must have meant the beat/the groove/the music. So, I'd even go so far as to say that Jay-Z's '96 meaning has since evolved into something new, where "feeling it" simply means "digging it" or "getting jiggy with it"/"getting your freak on"/"getting crunk". >Wha? Mark Wahlberg's from Boston. In Labov's survey, the merger of /i/ >and /I/ before /l/ was found mostly in the South, with scattered >examples in the West and North Midland: He was probably just trying to sound "ghetto" by saying "feel" as "fill". Love: >Marky Mark & The Funky >Bunch's "Good Vibrations," released in 1991, urges us to "Feel it! feel it! >Feel the vibration" [punctuation added], with "feel" of course pronounced >about >the way most of us say "fill." Is that a Jerseyism? I don't know about that usage. I think Marky Mark was using the term in a bit more literal a sense of the word. Wasn't it possible to "feel the beat" of music back in your day? I'm sure this use comes from the idea of heavy bass sounds being literally literally "felt" as vibrations in your body sometimes, no? >with "feel" of course pronounced about >the way most of us say "fill." Is that a Jerseyism? Probably not. Mark Wahlberg is Bostonian. Zimmer: >It's hard to pinpoint, but I'd guess that transitive "feel" meaning "to >like, enjoy, feel a connection with (a song, a person, etc.)" dates to >mid-'90s hiphop lingo. Most likely. The funny thing was that after I said I'm "feeling Ludacris" the girl said something like, "don't feel ludicrous; everyone likes different things." I'm quite shocked that no one here made the same mistake, and that you're well aware of the new meaning of "feeling". >The object of >the verb is often simply "it" with no clear antecedent (as in Jay-Z's >1996 song "Feelin' It"). You listen to Jay-Z? I don't remember that song. I wouldn't say the object is "usually" "it". "Feeling it" simply means something like "getting your freak on". But it's far more likely that a person's "feeling" something specific. >Cf. the new hiphop-ish McDonald's advertising >slogan, "I'm lovin' it". What's "Cf"? >What's "Cf"? "Clusterfuck" -- a ghetto abbreviation I'm surprised you're not familiar with. -- Ross Howard Howard: >>What's "Cf"? > >"Clusterfuck" -- a ghetto abbreviation I'm surprised you're not >familiar with. I've never heard of it. What does it mean? > >Cf. the new hiphop-ish McDonald's advertising > >slogan, "I'm lovin' it". > > What's "Cf"? Try a dictionary. (It means "compare".) >> What's "Cf"? > >Try a dictionary. (It means "compare".) I thought it meant "clusterfuck"? >>> What's "Cf"? >> >>Try a dictionary. (It means "compare".) > >I thought it meant "clusterfuck"? For gay people (and racists) it means compare. For ghetto people it means clusterfuck. Whose side are you on? -- Ross Howard Howard: >For gay people (and racists) it means compare. For ghetto people it >means clusterfuck. > >Whose side are you on? I think that question has a fairly obvious answer. |
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