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Discussion Groups / English Usage / September 2007That's that
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/23/2040906.htm?section=justin Health Minister Daniel Andrews says it has been a bad winter for illness and all hospitals have been feeling the effects of that. "There are substantial pressures in our health systems, and let's be honest about that," he said. "But we are coping, and we are doing well, we are moving forward, but there is more to be done, and I want to be very, very clear about that." Comments?  SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au Interesting. "That" is not a (pro)noun. It is a determiner. To be more precise, it is a predeterminer -- that is, it precedes the head noun in a noun phrase. However, we see and hear that even educated native speakers of English use it like a pronoun. Now, it's all up to you to determine your stance. If you are an advocate of prescriptive grammar, then refrain from treating it like a pronoun. If not, then feel free and do whatever you wish. Farhad > Interesting. "That" is not a (pro)noun. It is a determiner. To be more > precise, it is a predeterminer -- that is, it precedes the head noun [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > then refrain from treating it like a pronoun. If not, then feel free > and do whatever you wish. That's unconventional. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Interesting. "That" is not a (pro)noun. "That" has been (among other things) a pronoun, going back at least as far as "Beowulf". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The plural of "anecdote" 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is not "data" Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > "That" has been (among other things) a pronoun, going back at least as > far as "Beowulf". I would like to admit that I made a mistake in my earlier posting. I am already very well aware of the fact that "that" is, among other things, a pronoun. It is either a demonstrative or a relative pronoun. But after mulling over what made me say that "that" was not a pronoun, I concluded that there was method to my madness. Look at the mini- dialog below: A: What is that? B: It's my journal. If B answered with "that" instead of "it", his response would sound rather weird. A pronoun is traditionally defined as a word that is used instead of a noun or noun phrase. The antecedent of the pronoun "it" in the mini- dialog above is "that", which is itself a pronoun, which violates the traditional definition of pronouns. I know this is not true. But, embarrassingly enough, this untrue information was somewhere in my unconscious that caused me to make the mistake in my response. Nonetheless, I would like to raise this question: Why is it weird to answer such questions as the one in the mini-dialog above with "that" instead of "it"? There have been times that non-native students of English have lost scores merely because of answering with "that" instead of "it" in their English tests. Farhad Farhad filted: >A: What is that? >B: It's my journal. > >If B answered with "that" instead of "it", his response would sound >rather weird. Not to me it wouldn't, and not to any native English speaker I know...vide: Roberta Lincoln: "Who's that?" Gary Seven: "That, Miss Lincoln, is simply my cat." (From the Star Trek episode "Assignment: Earth")....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" [...] > I concluded that there was method to my madness. Look at the mini- > dialog below: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If B answered with "that" instead of "it", his response would sound > rather weird. Try as I may, I can detect no weirdness at all. [...] > There have been times that non-native students of > English have lost scores merely because of answering with "that" > instead of "it" in their English tests. Which were marked by whom? SignatureLes Farhad wrote > Look at the mini-dialog below: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If B answered with "that" instead of "it", his response would sound > rather weird. No, that wouldn't sound weird at all. It would sound quite standard. > A pronoun is traditionally defined as a word that is used instead of a > noun or noun phrase. The antecedent of the pronoun "it" in the mini- > dialog above is "that", which is itself a pronoun, which violates the > traditional definition of pronouns. But it doesn't, since a pronoun can quite properly also refer back to another pronoun. > There have been times that non-native students of > English have lost scores merely because of answering with "that" > instead of "it" in their English tests. Badly written tests, then, or bad answer sheets. Or dogmatic graders with an imperfect understanding of how English really is used. >> Look at the mini-dialog below: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Badly written tests, then, or bad answer sheets. Or dogmatic graders > with an imperfect understanding of how English really is used. Well, as usual with this pesky language, it depends. It depends on where the "that" thing is in relation to the speakers. If it's remote from the questioner but close to the answerer, then we'll have "that" and "it". But if it's notionally remote from both, then we /could/ have two "thats". SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> "That" has been (among other things) a pronoun, going back at least as >> far as "Beowulf". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >If B answered with "that" instead of "it", his response would sound >rather weird. Sounds perfectly fine to this Canadian. >>"That" has been (among other things) a pronoun, going back at least as >>far as "Beowulf". [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > English have lost scores merely because of answering with "that" > instead of "it" in their English tests. Not weird at all. I admit that I would probably use "it" more often than "that", but "that" is quite normal and I know there are examples in some of the other posts. SignatureRob Bannister >>>"That" has been (among other things) a pronoun, going back at least as >>>far as "Beowulf". [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >"that", but "that" is quite normal and I know there are examples in some >of the other posts. In the role of B I think I'd use "that" only when the journal is at some distance from me. This would correspond to the distinction between "this" and "that". If I'm holding the journal or have it close to me I think "that" would sound weird because "this" would be appropriate. "It" could be used in either case. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Sep 29, 4:08 am, Peter Duncanson <m...@peterduncanson.net> claimed: > In the role of B I think I'd use "that" only when the > journal is at some distance from me. This would correspond [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "that" would sound weird because "this" would be > appropriate. In a not-as-obvious case, I often see people holding up an item which has just been mentioned, often as the object of a search, and saying, "Voi-la!" (or more often these days, "Wallah"), rather than the obviously intended, "Voi-ci!" -- Stefano http://www.steve-and-pattie.com/esperantujo > Peter Duncanson claimed: >> In the role of B I think I'd use "that" only when the >> journal is at some distance from me. This would correspond [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "Voi-la!" (or more often these days, "Wallah"), rather than the > obviously intended, "Voi-ci!" Eureka! SignatureSkitt >> Peter Duncanson claimed: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Eureka! WIWAL, the standard response to "Eureka!" was "You no smell-a so good-a youself!" Skitt filted: >> In a not-as-obvious case, I often see people holding up an item which >> has just been mentioned, often as the object of a search, and saying, >> "Voi-la!" (or more often these days, "Wallah"), rather than the >> obviously intended, "Voi-ci!" > >Eureka! Arunda!...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" Steve MacGregor: >>> "Voi-la!" ... rather than the obviously intended, "Voi-ci!" "Skitt": >> Eureka! R.H. Draney: > Arunda! A Toyota! SignatureMark Brader "After many years of teaching, you get to learn Toronto quite a lot about how to design a better idiot." msb@vex.net --Peter Moylan Mark Brader filted: >Steve MacGregor: >>>> "Voi-la!" ... rather than the obviously intended, "Voi-ci!" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >A Toyota! Not what the rest of us were doing but what the heck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nej4xJe4Tdg ....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" On Sep 28, 8:06 am, Farhad <fvafa...@gmail.com> opined: > Interesting. "That" is not a (pro)noun. It is a determiner. > To be more precise, it is a predeterminer -- that is, it > precedes the head noun in a noun phrase. However, we see > and hear that even educated native speakers of English use > it like a pronoun. I believe that[1] that[2] that[3] that[4] writer has opined is his own opinion, and not mine. -- Stefano [1] subordinating conjunction [2] demonstrative pronoun [3] relative pronoun [4] demonstrative adjective |
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