 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / October 2007Thunder, by Jove, can be jovial?
One could start with Wiki, by Jove: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jove [excerpt] In Roman mythology, Jupiter (Iuppiter in Latin) held the same role as Zeus in the Greek pantheon. He was called Juppiter Optimus Maximus Soter (Jupiter Best, Greatest, Savior); as the patron deity of the Roman state, he ruled over laws and social order. He was the chief god of the Capitoline Triad, with Juno and Minerva. Iuppiter, originating in a vocative compound derived from archaic Latin Iovis and pater (Latin for father), was also used as the nominative case. Jove[..] is a less common English formation based on Iov-, the stem of oblique cases of the Latin name. Additionally, linguistic studies identify his name as deriving from the Indo-European compound *dyēus- pəter- ("O Father God"), the Indo-European deity from whom also derive the Germanic *Tiwaz (from whose name comes the word Tuesday), the Greek Zeus, and the Vedic equivalent, Dyaus Pita. The name of the god was also adopted as the name of the planet Jupiter, and was the original namesake of Latin forms of the weekday known in English as Thursday. [2] Originally called Iovis Dies in Latin, one can see the root of Thursday various modern Romance languages: jeudi in French, jueves in Castillian, giovedì in Italian, and dijous in Catalan. [end excerpt] Wiki also lists various epithets of Jove/Jupiter – thunderer, greatest, etc. The question I’ve been pondering is, how did we get from a “king-of-the-gods” sense for the word “jove” to a light and convivial, or merry, sense for “jovial?” In looking at the excerpt from OED2 below, I’m struck by the possibility that it was astrology that gave us such a spin of the word. Consider the excerpt, which is from the entry for “jovial, a.:” †5. Astrol. Under the influence of, or having the qualities imparted by, the planet Jupiter, which as a natal planet was regarded as the source of joy and happiness. Also absol. as n. Obs. 1590 Spenser F.Q. ii. xii. 51 Therewith the Heauens alwaies iouiall, Lookte on them louely. 1605 Timme Quersit. i. xi. 47 There are starres which haue their most colde and moyst spirites; ..others hote and moyst, as the Iovialls. … 6. Characterized by hearty mirth, humour, or good fellowship; merry, jolly; convivial. 1596 Drayton Legends iv. 223 As meerely Ioviall in my selfe was I. 1605 Shakes. Macb. iii. ii. 28 Be bright and Iouiall among your Guests to Night. … [end excerpt] Do the dates and contents of the citations support the astrological influence theory, or no? -- Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > One could start with Wiki, by Jove: > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Do the dates and contents of the citations support the astrological > influence theory, or no? Very interesting, never thought of it. Here is an even harder etymological quandary: I can understand how the term "venereal disease" is connected to Venus, the goddess of love. But I cannot see the connection between such goddess, the shameful disease and the word "venerable". > Here is an even harder etymological quandary: > > I can understand how the term "venereal disease" is connected to > Venus, the goddess of love. But I cannot see the connection between > such goddess, the shameful disease and the word "venerable". Here y'go: venerable: 1432, from L. venerabilis, from venerari "to worship, revere" (see veneration). As a title, used in ref. to ecclesiastics or those who had obtained the first degree of canonization. {veneration: c.1410, from M.Fr. veneration, from L. venerationem (nom. veneratio) "reverence," from venerari "to worship, revere," from venus (gen. veneris) "beauty, love, desire" (see Venus). Venerate (v.) is first recorded 1623, from L. veneratus, pp. of venerari.)} venereal: 1432, "of or pertaining to sexual desire or intercourse," from L. venereus, from venus (gen. veneris) "sexual love, sexual desire" (see Venus). Used of sexually transmitted diseases from 1658. {Venus: O.E., from L. Venus (pl. veneres), in ancient Roman mythology, the goddess of beauty and love, especially sensual love, from venus "love, sexual desire, loveliness, beauty, charm," from PIE base *wen- "to strive after, wish, desire, be satisfied" (cf. Skt. vanas- "desire," vanati "desires, loves, wins;" Avestan vanaiti "he wishes, is victorious;" O.E. wynn "joy," wunian "to dwell," wenian "to accustom, train, wean," wyscan "to wish"). Applied by the Romans to Gk. Aphrodite, Egyptian Hathor, etc.} >>Here is an even harder etymological quandary: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > veneration). As a title, used in ref. to ecclesiastics or those who had > obtained the first degree of canonization. Well I'll Bede! --Jeff  Signature"Power never concedes anything without a demand. It never has and it never will." --Frederick Douglass > > Here is an even harder etymological quandary: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > "to wish"). Applied by the Romans to Gk. Aphrodite, Egyptian Hathor, > etc.} Excellent! Now won't you please find the missing link for jolly* Jove the jovial. ============= I threw in "jolly" just for jubilant fun. Arcadian Rises wrote: >> > Here is an even harder etymological quandary: >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > ============ > I threw in "jolly" just for jubilant fun. You mean this? Jupiter: c.1205, "supreme deity of the ancient Romans," from L. Iupeter, from PIE *dyeu-peter- "god-father" (originally vocative, "the name naturally occurring most frequently in invocations" -Tucker), from *deiw-os "god" (see divine (adj.)) + peter "father" in the sense of "male head of a household." Cf. Gk. Zeu pater, vocative of Zeus pater "Father Zeus;" Skt. Dyauspita "heavenly father." The planet name is attested from c.1290. The declension of Jupiter is irregular: Nominative (as subject): Jupiter Genitive (indicating possession, or source): Jovis or Jovius Dative (as recipient of action; indirect object of a verb): Jovi Accusitive (as direct object of a verb): Jovem Vocative (as form of address): Jupiter Ablative (indicating separation, indirection, or means of action): Jove There was no locative case for Jupiter. jovial: 1590, from Fr., from It. joviale, lit. "pertaining to Jupiter," from L. Jovialis "of Jupiter," from Jovius (used as gen. of Juppiter) "Jupiter," Roman god of the sky. The meaning "good-humored, merry," is from astrological belief that those born under the sign of the planet Jupiter are of such dispositions. In classical L., the compound Juppiter replaced Old L. Jovis as the god's name. Jovian, in ref. to the planet Jupiter, is from 1794. Jubilant, however, is from a different Latin root altogether: jubilant: 1667, from L. jubilantem (nom. jubilans), prp. of jubilare "to call to someone," in Christian writers, "to shout for joy," related to jubilum "wild shout." First attested in Milton. Jubilation is much older in Eng. (1388), from O.Fr. jubilacion, from L. jubilationem (nom. jubilatio), from jubilare (to shout with joy). And jolly most likely came from Scandihoovia, although it *might* have come from Italy. Jolly: c.1305, from O.Fr. jolif "festive, merry, amorous, pretty" of uncertain origin (cf. It. giulivo "merry, pleasant"), perhaps a Gmc. loan-word from a source akin to O.N. jol "a winter feast" (see yule), or from L. gaudere "to rejoice." Jollification "merrymaking" is from 1809; shortened form jolly led to phrase get (one's) jollies "have fun" (1957). A jolly boat (1727) is probably from Dan. jolle (17c.) or Du. jol (1682), both related to yawl; or it may be from M.E. jolywat (1495) "a ship's small boat," of unknown origin. > >> > Here is an even harder etymological quandary: > [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I am deeply impressed by your erudition, and filled with gratitude for your educating and enlightening message; and also informative, at least for this reader. Arcadian Rises wrote: {snipped etymologies of Venus, venereal, venerate, Jupiter, jovial, jolly and jubilant>} > I am deeply impressed by your erudition, and filled with gratitude > for your educating and enlightening message; and also informative, at > least for this reader. Heh. I'm honored, but what I really have is a bookmark in my browser for <http://www.etymonline.com/> the Online Etymology Dictionary. Handy thing. > {snipped etymologies of Venus, venereal, venerate, Jupiter, jovial, jolly > and jubilant>} [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Heh. I'm honored, but what I really have is a bookmark in my browser a/k/a Erudition 2.0 SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. [...] >> from the entry for "jovial, a.:" >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> Do the dates and contents of the citations support the astrological >> influence theory, or no? Yes. Consider also "Saturnine" and Holst's Planets. And, indeed, plants: the old herbals used to say things like "It is an herb of Mars ..." The humours and elements must be in there somewhere, too. > Very interesting, never thought of it. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Venus, the goddess of love. But I cannot see the connection between > such goddess, the shameful disease and the word "venerable". No connection that I've heard of. Or with venery, meaning hunting, or with veni-vidi-vici, or venial sins. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com On Oct 28, 5:22?pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > [...] > >> from the entry for "jovial, a.:" [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > No connection that I've heard of. Or with venery, meaning hunting, or > with veni-vidi-vici, or venial sins. Speaking of the related veni-vidi-vici, I think "venue" is a misspelling (alteration?) of "Venus". >> > Here is an even harder etymological quandary: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Speaking of the related veni-vidi-vici, I think "venue" is a > misspelling (alteration?) of "Venus". Nope, nothing to do with Venus. venue: c.1330, "a coming for the purpose of attack," from O.Fr. venue "coming," from fem. pp. of venir "to come," from L. venire "to come," from PIE base *gwa- "to go, come" (cf. O.E. cuman "to come;" see come). The sense of "place where a case in law is tried" is first recorded 1531. Extended to locality in general, especially "site of a concert or sporting event" (1857). Venery is complicated: As "the pursuit of sexual pleasure," it first appears in 1497, from M.L. veneria "sexual intercourse," from L. venus (gen. veneris) "sexual love, sexual desire" (see Venus). But the hunting verery is a now obsolete homonym venery "practice or sport of hunting, the chase" (c.1320), from O.Fr. venerie, from L. venari "to hunt" > >> > Here is an even harder etymological quandary: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > sport of hunting, the chase" (c.1320), from O.Fr. venerie, from L. venari > "to hunt" Too much erudition might be detrimental to one's sense of humor. In my view, a sense of humor encompasses also the perception of "animus jocandi", i.e. the intent, even the feeble attempt, to joke. Arcadian Rises <Arcadianrises@aol.com> het geskryf: > Too much erudition might be detrimental to one's sense of > humor. Indeed SignatureNat in the Fair ^[ In All The World "Too much erudition might be detrimental to one's sense of humor." --Arcadian Rises Father Ignatius filted: >Arcadian Rises <Arcadianrises@aol.com> het geskryf: > >> Too much erudition might be detrimental to one's sense of >> humor. > >Indeed Yeah, so just watch yourself, Jeff Foxworthy!...r Signature"He come in the night when one sleep on a bed. With a hand he have the basket and foods." - David Sedaris explains the Easter rabbit > Father Ignatius filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Yeah, so just watch yourself, Jeff Foxworthy!...r If you're watching yourself... you may already be erudite. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Arcadian Rises <Arcadianrises@aol.com> het geskryf: > Speaking of the related veni-vidi-vici, I think "venue" > is a misspelling (alteration?) of "Venus". The place where you come? On Oct 29, 2:06?am, "Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnat...@ANTISPAMananzi.co.za> wrote: > Arcadian Rises <Arcadianri...@aol.com> het geskryf: > > > Speaking of the related veni-vidi-vici, I think "venue" > > is a misspelling (alteration?) of "Venus". > > The place where you come? Nope, the place where I live at the moment, my venue. On Oct 28, 3:22 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > [...] > >> from the entry for "jovial, a.:" > > >> ?5. Astrol. Under the influence of, or having the qualities imparted > >> by, the planet Jupiter, which as a natal planet was regarded as the > >> source of joy and happiness. Also absol. as n. Obs. ... > >> Do the dates and contents of the citations support the astrological > >> influence theory, or no? > > Yes. I'll bet you have to look at the dates of the Latin terms, too. > Consider also "Saturnine" Not to mention "mercurial" and "martial". > and Holst's Planets. Or, less famously, C. S. Lewis's /That Hideous Strength/. And I suppose any number of books on the "occult". > And, indeed, plants: > the old herbals used to say things like "It is an herb of Mars ..." The > humours and elements must be in there somewhere, too. And the metals--gold for the sun/Apollo, silver for the moon/Diana, mercury for Mercury, copper for Venus, tellurium for Earth (wait a second), iron for Mars, tin for Jupiter, lead for Saturn. Which brings us to alchemy, about which I know nothing. > > Very interesting, never thought of it. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > No connection that I've heard of. Or with venery, meaning hunting, or > with veni-vidi-vici, or venial sins. The /American Heritage Dictionary/, which our friends at sci.lang will tell us is not universally believed, says they are related. (Line breaks added for ease of reading). ENTRY: wen-1 DEFINITION: To desire, strive for. Derivatives include win, wont, wish, venerate, venereal, venom, and venison. 1. Suffixed form *wen-w-. win, from Old English winnan, to win, from Germanic *winn(w)an, to seek to gain. 2. Suffixed zero-grade form *w-y-. wynn, winsome, from Old English wynn, wen, pleasure, joy, from Germanic *wunj. 3. Suffixed (stative) zero-grade form *w--, to be contented. won1, wont, from Old English wunian, to become accustomed to, dwell, from Germanic *wunn. 4. Suffixed (causative) o-grade form *won-eyo-. wean, from Old English wenian, to accustom, train, wean, from Germanic *wanjan. 5. ween, from Old English wnan, to expect, imagine, think, from Germanic denominative *wnjan, to hope, from *wniz, hope. 6. Suffixed zero-grade form *w-sko-. wish, from Old English wscan, to desire, wish, from Germanic *wunsk-. 7. Perhaps o-grade form *won-. a. Vanir, from Old Norse Vanir, the Vanir; b. vanadium, from Old Norse Vanads, name of the goddess Freya. Both a and b from Germanic *wana-. 8. Suffixed form *wen-es-. a. venerate, venereal, venery1, Venus, from Latin venus, love; b. suffixed form *wen-es-no-. venom, from Latin vennum, love potion, poison. 9. Possibly suffixed form *wen-eto-, "beloved." Wend, from Old High German Winid, Wend, from Germanic *Weneda-, a Slavic people. 10. Suffixed form *wen-y-. venial, from Latin venia, favor, forgiveness. 11. Lengthened-grade form *wn--. venery2, venison, from Latin vnr, to hunt. 12. Suffixed basic form *wen-o-. wanderoo, from Sanskrit vanam, forest. 13. Possibly zero-grade suffixed form *w-ig-. banyan, from Sanskrit vaik, vija, merchant (? < "seeking to gain"). (Pokorny 1. en- 1146.) More than I ever dreamed possible. -- Jerry Friedman > On Oct 28, 3:22 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I'll bet you have to look at the dates of the Latin terms, too. I don't know at all how Greco-Roman astrology worked, but it doesn't seem from my Latin dictionary that the Romans used these words in that way. The ancient literary view is that the world was a happier place before Saturn was deposed --/Saturnia Regna/ was the Age of Gold --and this doesn't seem to fit with the rather gloomy character attributed to his influence by the medieval astrologers. Our Christmas and New Year celebrations are essentially the Roman annual jollification Saturnalia --again, not saturnine at all in our sense. >> Consider also "Saturnine" > > Not to mention "mercurial" and "martial". [...] >>> Here is an even harder etymological quandary: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> No connection that I've heard of. Or with venery, meaning hunting, or >> with veni-vidi-vici, or venial sins. "After Mars comes Venus, and after Venus, Mercury", as the saying went --mercury providing a treatment for the disease a soldier may have acquired during his relaxation after the battle. > The /American Heritage Dictionary/, which our friends at sci.lang will > tell us is not universally believed, says they are related. [...mucho great stuff...] > More than I ever dreamed possible. Marvellous! I believe it all. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com On Oct 29, 6:41 am, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: > > On Oct 28, 3:22 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > celebrations are essentially the Roman annual jollification > Saturnalia --again, not saturnine at all in our sense. I hadn't thought about that. But I think I was thinking about medieval Latin. I'd be surprised to learn that "jovial" and "mercurial" weren't borrowed from medieval or Renaissance astrology in Latin. > >> Consider also "Saturnine" > > > Not to mention "mercurial" and "martial". It was probably unfair of me to mention "martial", since apparently that does come from classical Latin, early than the modern sense of "jovial". > >>> Here is an even harder etymological quandary: > > >>> I can understand how the term "venereal disease" is connected to > >>> Venus, the goddess of love. But I cannot see the connection between > >>> such goddess, the shameful disease and the word "venerable". ... > "After Mars comes Venus, and after Venus, Mercury", as the saying > went --mercury providing a treatment for the disease a soldier may have > acquired during his relaxation after the battle. ... And after Mercury, Pluto. -- Jerry Friedman > On Oct 29, 6:41 am, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> > wrote: >> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: [...] >>> I'll bet you have to look at the dates of the Latin terms, too. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I hadn't thought about that [sc. Saturnalia, etc]. But I think I was thinking about > medieval Latin. I'd be surprised to learn that "jovial" and > "mercurial" weren't borrowed from medieval or Renaissance astrology in > Latin. [...] Oh, that I doubt not. SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > his influence by the medieval astrologers. Our Christmas and New Year > celebrations are essentially the Roman annual jollification > Saturnalia --again, not saturnine at all in our sense. I would bet that most tribes had a winter festival long before they had even heard of Romans. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister wrote, in <5oncj3Fnk04iU2@mid.individual.net> on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:35:47 +0900: > > his influence by the medieval astrologers. Our Christmas and New Year > > celebrations are essentially the Roman annual jollification > > Saturnalia --again, not saturnine at all in our sense. > > I would bet that most tribes had a winter festival long before they had > even heard of Romans. The passage grave at Newgrange, built ca 3200BC, is aligned so that the rising sun at the winter solstice shines right along the passage. SignatureNick Spalding >Robert Bannister wrote, in <5oncj3Fnk04iU2@mid.individual.net> > on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:35:47 +0900: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >The passage grave at Newgrange, built ca 3200BC, is aligned so that the >rising sun at the winter solstice shines right along the passage. I've often wondered about this sort of theatricality in our forebears. It's dark . . . the audience gathers . . . rosy-fingered Dawn does something out of sight . . . "What shall we see this year?" they ask each other . . . drums roll . . . Lights! The passage is lit! . . . and there's the end of the passage -- same old rock. I suppose they all start a hand shadow-puppet fight, and the bunnies bite the ostriches, and the sun heaves higher, and it's all over for another year. I mean to say. SignaturePaul Paul Wolff wrote, in <0EvsO1M+o4JHFAZ5@fpwolff.demon.co.uk> on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:47:10 +0000: > >Robert Bannister wrote, in <5oncj3Fnk04iU2@mid.individual.net> > > on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:35:47 +0900: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I mean to say. Actually it is much the same for a day or two either side of the solstice. SignatureNick Spalding > Paul Wolff wrote, in <0EvsO1M+o4JHFAZ5@fpwolff.demon.co.uk> > on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:47:10 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Actually it is much the same for a day or two either side of the solstice. Hmm; on one side, there seems to be a lot more left-over cold turkey. SignatureRob Bannister > Actually it is much the same for a day or two either side of the solstice. Similarly with Isambard Kingdom Brunel's birthday, or perhaps not exactly that either, I hear. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Gadgetry abounded everywhere, almost all of which msb@vex.net | he could justify." -- Robert Asprin >> Robert Bannister wrote, in <5oncj3Fnk04iU2@mid.individual.net> >> on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:35:47 +0900: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > start a hand shadow-puppet fight, and the bunnies bite the ostriches, > and the sun heaves higher, and it's all over for another year. What about the boozing? SignatureRob Bannister >>Robert Bannister wrote, in <5oncj3Fnk04iU2@mid.individual.net> >> on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:35:47 +0900: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I mean to say. Our forebears are just like us: the above a pretty fair description of what happens on the Infinite Corridor at MIT on the right day(s) of the year. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.