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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Funny or tragic?
This is just silly: ===== The FBI is warning police nationwide to be alert for people carrying almanacs, cautioning that the popular reference books covering everything from abbreviations to weather trends could be used for terrorist planning. In a bulletin sent Christmas Eve to about 18,000 police organizations, the FBI said terrorists may use almanacs "to assist with target selection and pre-operational planning." It urged officers to watch during searches, traffic stops and other investigations for anyone carrying almanacs, especially if the books are annotated in suspicious ways. <http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2003/12/29/national 1426EST0580.DTL> (Broken link alert) ===== Do almanacs kill people, or people kill people?  SignatureSimon R. Hughes > The FBI is warning police nationwide to be alert for people > carrying almanacs [...] Maybe they now consider everything starting with al... harmful. Already almost everyone knows about the danger of alligators and also alcohol. Next will be aluminum suitcases. Best regards Steffen Steffen Buehler filted: >> The FBI is warning police nationwide to be alert for people >> carrying almanacs [...] > >Maybe they now consider everything starting with al... harmful. >Already almost everyone knows about the danger of alligators and >also alcohol. Next will be aluminum suitcases. Great...and I'm in a profession where everything we do is algorithms.... Wonder what'll become of Alabama....r > Wonder what'll become of Alabama Perfect name for a terrorist organization, even: Al-Aba-Ma. SignatureDena Jo Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email. > > Wonder what'll become of Alabama > > Perfect name for a terrorist organization, even: Al-Aba-Ma. OMG, now I'm worried about a1a! Where *is* that fellow? > OMG, now I'm worried about a1a! Where *is* that fellow? *Who* is that fellow? He was before my time. SignatureDena Jo Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email. > > The FBI is warning police nationwide to be alert for people > > carrying almanacs [...] > > Maybe they now consider everything starting with al... harmful. > Already almost everyone knows about the danger of alligators and > also alcohol. Next will be aluminum suitcases. And Al Franken, maybe. But not Al Gore. Just about sums up the United States of Redneck: be suspicious of people who show an interest in learning. Me, I'm much more worried by people who carry Bibles. Adrian >This is just silly: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Do almanacs kill people, or people kill people? And why did they miss the opportunity to spell it "al-Manaq"? Meanwhile, a friend who has just returned from a flight to London told me that although she had her nail clippers consfiscated at the airport (a terrorist could, of course, cause panic by using them to snip the other passengers' earphone wires) and all her tampons shredded (potential minibombs, complete with fuse), they actually let her felt-tip pen through. This is disgraceful. She could have had the captain's eye out with that, for God's sake! It even had "PILOT" written on it to make its nefarious purpose quite clear. -- Ross Howard > This is just silly: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > covering everything from abbreviations to weather trends could be > used for terrorist planning. It's worse than silly. It's harmful. -- Mike Nitabach > The FBI is warning police nationwide to be alert for people > carrying almanacs, cautioning that the popular reference books > covering everything from abbreviations to weather trends could be > used for terrorist planning. The FBI seems to have missed centuries of documentation that the Bible (or the Torah) contains encoded messages concerning future events. -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> wrote on 30 Dec 2003: > This is just silly: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Do almanacs kill people, or people kill people? This is only the beginning, Simon. Next will come dictionaries, maps, and ebook readers. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. >This is just silly: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Do almanacs kill people, or people kill people? I just came across this *pot pourri* of puns and malaprops (author unknown), which has a certain sort of AUE-y charm. (Apologies if anyone else has posted it already -- after a week off and with a dicky German server, my keeping-up isn't all it might be.) *****QUOTE***** WMDs FOUND! At New York's Kennedy airport today, an individual later discovered to be a public school teacher was arrested trying to board a flight while in possession of a protractor, a T-square, a slide rule, and a calculator. At a morning press conference, Attorney general John Ashcroft said he believes the man is a member of the notorious Al-gebra movement. The man is being charged by the FBI with carrying weapons of math instruction. "Al-gebra is a fearsome cult," Ashcroft said. "They desire average solutions by means and extremes, and sometimes go off on tangents in a search for absolute value. They use secret code names like x and y and refer to themselves as unknowns, but we have determined they belong to a common denominator of the axis of medieval with coordinates in every country. As the Greek philanderer Isosceles used to say, there are 3 sides to every triangle," Ashcroft declared. When asked to comment on the arrest, President Bush said, "If God had wanted us to have better weapons of math instruction, He would have given us more fingers and toes. I am gratified that our government has given us a sine that it is intent on protracting us from these math-dogs who are willing to dis-integrate us with calculus disregard. Murky statisticians love to inflict plane on every sphere of influence," the President said, adding: "Under the circumferences, we must differentiate their root, make our point, and draw the line." President Bush warned, "These weapons of math instruction have the potential to decimal everything in their math on a scalene never before seen unless we become exponents of a Higher Power and begin to factor-in random facts of vertex." Attorney General Ashcroft said, "As our Great Leader would say, read my ellipse. Here is one principle he is uncertainty of: though they continue to multiply, their days are numbered as the hypotenuse tightens around their necks." *****END QUOTE***** -- Ross Howard >This is just silly: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Do almanacs kill people, or people kill people? Everyone, I suppose, will agree that this is silly. I'm not so sure, though. The FBI isn't alerting people that owners and users of almanacs should be considered suspicious. The FBI is alerting police that people carrying almanacs around with them should be looked at with suspicion. For it to be silly, there has to be a case of an innocent reason to carry an almanac around with you. I can't think of one. As far as I know, almanacs - once brought home - stay on a shelf somewhere. It's not something that someone would normally carry around on the car seat. There are a lot of other books that people wouldn't normally carry around with them on the car seat, but it would seem that the FBI has some information or experience that indicates that almanacs may be a special case. I don't think they're imaginative enough to randomly select an almanac as something to notice. This is the type of situation where most people reading the article will scoff at it, but few will allow that there might be a legitimate reason for the concern. It's kind of sad, really, that the assumption is that the FBI must be guilty of something silly and not that the FBI has uncovered something useful to detect potential terrorists. Perhaps my attitude is a little different than yours, Simon. I'm here and what might happen would affect me. You're not. This is the type of group that is intellectually able to think out all of the possible ramifications of something, but a group that contains many people that think with their knee when certain things are involved. >>This is just silly: [...] > Perhaps my attitude is a little different than yours, Simon. I'm here > and what might happen would affect me. You're not. This is the type > of group that is intellectually able to think out all of the possible > ramifications of something, but a group that contains many people that > think with their knee when certain things are involved. Perhaps al-manaqs can take innocent lives. What about goldfish, though? ===== Forum: The fish that threatened national security College student Lara Hayhurst was not prepared to let officials treat her little pet like Osama 'fin' Laden Sunday, December 28, 2003 Like many college students who flew home for the holidays, I had to endure the latest airport safeguards in the name of homeland security. A lot of us have stories to tell, but only mine is a fish tale, a contemporary melodrama of the absurd to prepare you for future travels. <http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/03362/255283.stm> ===== I would prefer riding with Osama "fin" Laden than the agents riding shotgun that the US is demanding from the new year. SignatureSimon R. Hughes >>>This is just silly: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > I would prefer riding with Osama "fin" Laden than the agents > riding shotgun that the US is demanding from the new year. I had to stop reading when I reached the sentence: "MJ is a gorgeous fighting Betta fish, his palate a perfect pastel rainbow." SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) Laura F Spira filted: >I had to stop reading when I reached the sentence: "MJ is a gorgeous >fighting Betta fish, his palate a perfect pastel rainbow." That's taking ichthyskepsis a little *too* far....r >>This is just silly: >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >that people carrying almanacs around with them should be looked at >with suspicion. [snip] You didn't really need to post this, Tony. Everybody knows that you can always be relied on to make excuses for any damned stupid thing done by those in authority over us. You are the kind of citizen that governments love; it is because of you, and people like you, with youur compulsive need to believe that "Mommy knows best" that what starts out as mere silliness becomes a genuine threat to freedom. There should be a word for this political position; how about "totalitarianism"? SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". >>>This is just silly: >>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >There should be a word for this political position; how about >"totalitarianism"? My perspective's a bit different than yours, Don. I live here, and I do have some faith in the FBI not to initiate a situation without some legitimate basis. The screw-ups get the public's attention and, television and movies portray them as hot-rods. What's not publicized is that the FBI is a pretty effective organization that has put some bad guys away over the years. I don't think that I automatically take the side of those in authority, but I'm probably more likely to than many of the posters here. What I do try to do - as I have in this case - is consider the side not brought up: there may be a reason. You might notice that I don't say there *is* a good reason, but that I do allow the possibility and don't automatically assume the sky of our civil rights is falling. Simon posted the FBI thing, and the Pittsburgh airport security thing. I commented on the FBI thing because I'm not going to assume that it's a capricious action by the FBI. I didn't comment on the airport security thing because those were the acts of one person. Overly-officious officials are found in all countries. Here's one patting down my son for weapons at Heathrow in the 70s: http://home.earthlink.net/~tony_cooper213/heathrow.jpg There had been reports of some assassination team in the area because of a visit from some Israeli leader. (Just happened to be going through albums at Christmas with the family) You feel I take the side of authority too quickly, and I feel that too many people are too quick to criticize authority without determining the "why". Here's the FBI under a great deal of criticism for not taking action on some incidents prior to 9/11, and now probably taking some criticism for taking an action in the form of a memo alert. Some might say they can't please anyone. Tell me, though, how were things in the UK regarding the attitude towards an Irish accent, or an Irish passport, or an Irish newspaper after Brighton, Ealing, Guildford, Aldershot, Birmingham, Warrington, Manchester, and Canary Wharf? A bit jumpy? BTW, you probably could have made your point without the hyperbole. I would have paid just as much attention. I really don't understand why people need to call someone an a.shole, or a pawn to totalitarianism, or whatever, when they see things differently. > >>This is just silly: > >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > can always be relied on to make excuses for any damned stupid thing > done by those in authority over us. How is it stupid for the government to ask police and the like to pay attention to clues that might lead them to terrorists? If the government has reason to believe that al Qaeda operatives like to wear pink contact lenses, is it stupid and funny and tragic to provide that information to law enforcement? > You are the kind of citizen that > governments love; it is because of you, and people like you, with > youur compulsive need to believe that "Mommy knows best" that what > starts out as mere silliness becomes a genuine threat to freedom. > There should be a word for this political position; how about > "totalitarianism"? Your conclusions are really bizarre. All this from the almanacs thing. Amazing. >> >>This is just silly: >> >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >Your conclusions are really bizarre. All this from the almanacs thing. >Amazing. In fairness to Don, I have come to the defense of "the authorities" on other issues. I don't always assume that those "in charge" are bumbling idiots or evil. I do try to look at both sides of an issue. > >> >>This is just silly: > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > other issues. I don't always assume that those "in charge" are > bumbling idiots or evil. I do try to look at both sides of an issue. If those in charge are really bumbling and/or evil, shouldn't people who believe that be doing something about it? Signature"Throw me that lipstick, darling, I wanna redo my stigmata." +-Jennifer Saunders, "Absolutely Fabulous" "Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote on 01 Jan 2004: >> On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:20:15 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( the oblique >> allusion in lieu of the frontal attack )" [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > If those in charge are really bumbling and/or evil, shouldn't > people who believe that be doing something about it? Just wait until November. The people are going to do something about it: re-elect W. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. >>>>> The FBI is warning police nationwide to be alert for people >>>>> carrying almanacs, cautioning that the popular reference books [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > other issues. I don't always assume that those "in charge" are > bumbling idiots or evil. I do try to look at both sides of an issue. So I call in the Newsagents today to pay my paper bill and what has pride of place on the counter? Old Moore's Almanac, pocket sized and only 1.75 UKP. Tide tables, moon- and sunrise, horoscopes and all that good stuff. I was suspicious that this might be a form of entrapment so I checked around and, yup, half-concealed cameras tracking my every move. But I shall put on a false beard & go and buy one & then carry it everywhere, taking it out in coffee shops to read through it while moving my lips. Let's see how long before they catch up with me. http://www.sundayherald.com/38978 << ITS astrological predictions have often been dismissed as superstitious nonsense. But the almanac that famously forecast major terror attacks on the east coast of the US during 2001 has warned that Tony Blair may not be in power at the end of next year. While the Prime Minister will raise his glass this week to toast the New Year like the rest of us, Foulsham's Original Old Moore's Almanack says 2004 may not be the happiest for the Labour leader ... >> -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply Just a follow up... I doubt that anyone outside of the FBI knows the specific reasoning behind the nationwide memo about almanacs, but some educated guessing can be done. A man named Ali Saleh Kahlah Al-Marri (a/k/a Abdullakareem A. Almuslam") was arrested by the FBI. There was a laundry list of charges with most of them relating to using the identities of several other people to obtain credit cards, social security cards, and to open bank accounts. These activities were in 2000 and 2001 prior to the 9/11 acts. Al-Marri was a student at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois. He's a native of Qatari and was obtaining a master's degree in computer information systems. It gets complicated, but - through telephone records - the FBI linked Al-Marri with Zacarias Moussaoui, a/k/a "Shaqil," a/k/a "Abu Khalid al Sahrawi". Moussaoui, in turn, was linked to several of the 9/11 hijackers and transferred money to their accounts. Al-Marri was also linked, by phone records, with Mustafa Ahmed al-Hawsawi in the UAE and al-Hawsawi was linked financially with several of the highjackers. In the FBI's search of Al-Marri's apartment, they found "computer files containing an aggregate of over approximately 1,000 apparent credit card numbers, stored in various computer files, as well as a list of numerous favorite bookmarked internet web sites relating to, among other things, computer hacking, fake driver's licenses and other fake identification cards, buying and selling credit card numbers, and processing credit card transactions. Preliminary examination of records for the approximately 1,000 credit card numbers found on AL-MARRI's computer has confirmed that the majority of these cards have been subjected to fraud." and "... among other things: ....an almanac with bookmarks in pages that provided information about major United States dams, reservoirs, waterways, and railroads." So, is the FBI being silly in using this find to send out a national alert about being suspicious of people carrying almanacs about with them, or did the FBI find enough correlation between the marked sections and annotations (referred to in some news stories) to have reason to be concerned? Al-Marri was arrested in December, 2001. Why wait this long to send out a bulletin? Unless, some other person linked to the terrorists was also found with a similar almanac or the FBI is just now deciphering some of the annotations. We're not ever going to know for sure. I just don't see why we should assume that the FBI just has a wild hair up their a.s and decided to crack down on almanacs. The ACLU - a group that I generally support - is screaming "profiling" and released a statement saying "Founding father Benjamin Franklin probably never imagined that the almanac he created would be the subject of an FBI terrorism bulletin. Franklin certainly foresaw the danger of government overreaching during a time of crisis. We hope that both the almanac and the Constitution will survive intact." So far, though, there is nothing more to the story than the FBI releasing a warning bulletin. No gardeners have been arrested. > Al-Marri was a student at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois. Hello. Isn't Peoria north of Egypt, which is south of the birthplace of Ray Wise? > Preliminary examination of > records for the approximately 1,000 credit card numbers found on > AL-MARRI's computer has confirmed that the majority of these cards > have been subjected to fraud." ObAUE: Is it correct and reasonable to speak of a credit card having been "subjected to fraud"? It seems to me that you can subject a person (including an artificial person) to fraud, but not an item of property (unless it is a juridical person). A credit card can be the subject of fraud, but you can't defraud a credit card. > and > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > sections and annotations (referred to in some news stories) to have > reason to be concerned? The mere fact that they find an almanac in the guy's apartment or whatever doesn't seem to make it reasonable to be suspicious of people carrying almanacs around with them, Coop. > Al-Marri was arrested in December, 2001. > Why wait this long to send out a bulletin? Unless, some other person > linked to the terrorists was also found with a similar almanac or the > FBI is just now deciphering some of the annotations. Maybe the FBI found other people linked to the terrorists who were carrying around almanacs and using them for likely terrorist-planning-related purposes. Then, I'll grant you, Coop, I can see some reasonableness, provided that you're correct (as I suspect you are) about the unusuality of carrying around almanacs. You've been unfairly raked over the coals on this one. And I say this, Coop, as someone who believes that you are indeed too quick and eager to defend the AmE status quo. BTW, I think my aunt or someone used to get me an almanac for Xmas or my birthday or something for a few years back in the day. I'm dead positive I would sometimes carry this almanac around with me in the car on extended automobile trips. >> So, is the FBI being silly in using this find to send out a national >> alert about being suspicious of people carrying almanacs about with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >doesn't seem to make it reasonable to be suspicious of people carrying >almanacs around with them, Coop. I'm just presenting information for consideration. I would agree that the mere fact of finding one doesn't justify the action. I'm iffing along with everyone else, but iffing with the balancing view. If the almanac was annotated with information that gave rise to suspicions, if the bookmarks tied in with known events, or if other almanacs were known to be in the hands of linked people....then the discovery is no longer mere. >BTW, I think my aunt or someone used to get me an almanac for Xmas or my >birthday or something for a few years back in the day. I'm dead positive >I would sometimes carry this almanac around with me in the car on extended >automobile trips. Lord knows my car is usually full of unnecessary crap. My glove compartment is full of maps of states I haven't been to in yonks. I would consider an almanac to be a desk reference, though, if I had one. >. And I say this, Coop, as >someone who believes that you are indeed too quick and eager to defend >the AmE status quo. As I read the above, you are saying that I am too quick to defend the status quo of the English language as spoken in America. That seems to contradict you position that I am too prone to pepper the stew with Hiberno-Whatever words and expressions. For the record, I am firmly in favor of the growth of English as spoken in the United States by the inclusion of appropriate non-AmE words and phrases. Just today, I used "yonks" to mean "many years". It's a perfectly good word that looks good in writing and sounds right when spoken. I have, in the past, mentioned "gobsmacked" as just the right word for certain applications. I might be a bit defensive of the AmE status quo when it comes to inclusions like "ho", "bitch", and "killa". It's not so much the usage of the words as it is the over-usage of the words in certain writings. ... > In the FBI's search of Al-Marri's apartment, they found ... ... > "... among other things: ....an almanac with bookmarks in pages that > provided information about major United States dams, reservoirs, > waterways, and railroads." So he wasn't carrying it around with him? SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >So he wasn't carrying it around with him? I don't think you can come to that conclusion . The almanac was found in his apartment when it searched. Where it was at a particular point in time is not all that relevant. His laptop was also found in his apartment. It's not difficult to assume that he carried that around with him when he traveled. >>... >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > found in his apartment when it searched. Where it was at a particular > point in time is not all that relevant. You were the one who suggested that almanacs are only seen on shelves. To suggest that "carrying an almanac" is an identifying characteristic of terrorists, you should demonstrate that this terrorist was known to travel carrying an almanac. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >>>... >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >of terrorists, you should demonstrate that this terrorist was known to >travel carrying an almanac. No, I don't need to demonstrate anything. All I'm trying to say is that the FBI could have information that led them to believe that carrying an almanac around is a warning sign. I've given enough "demonstration" that there could be conditions that led them to believe this. I am not making any statement that in any way says that carrying around an almanac is a warning sign of anything. What I am saying is that it's entirely possible that the FBI has information that leads *them* to believe this. That would remove the action from the "silly" category and put it in the reasonable precaution category. If you paid attention to my words, and not the impression you have of what I might say, you would see that I'm not even saying that it *wasn't" a silly action. It very well could be. I'm just not going to automatically assume that it's silly and some unreasonable assault on our civil rights just because the FBI did it. A couple of years ago, the FBI might have been roundly criticized for investigating foreign nationals that attend the flight training schools here in Florida. Background checks might have been considered a silly intrusion on their civil rights. The ACLU might have defended a foreign national that wanted to learn to pilot an aircraft, but had no interest in learning to land an aircraft. "Profiling" might have been the charge if the investigations centered around foreign nationals from Middle Eastern countries. Now, we find that these background checks and investigations might have been the best thing to do. Many people are very critical of the FBI for ignoring warnings and signs, and not digging into this issue. So, when the FBI *does* react to what they evidently perceive as a warning, we criticize them for initiating a silly violation of someone's civil rights. If someone is unwilling to automatically assume that the action is silly, that person is labeled an advocate of totalitarianism in government. The simple thing to do is always be critical of what is done and what is not done. The acceptable thing to do seems to be to make like Chicken Little and claim the sky is falling whenever "those in authority" take an action of any kind. I don't buy that. > If you paid attention to my words, and not the impression you have of > what I might say, you would see that I'm not even saying that it > *wasn't" a silly action. It very well could be. I'm just not going > to automatically assume that it's silly and some unreasonable assault > on our civil rights just because the FBI did it. I was paying attention to your words: I was commenting on your words, rather than the FBI warning. You were offering your experience - that almanacs are only seen on shelves - as indication that the FBI warning about carrying almanacs might be supported. But you didn't offer any evidence that this person actually did carry his almanac around with him; you only offered evidence that an almanac was in his apartment. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >> If you paid attention to my words, and not the impression you have of >> what I might say, you would see that I'm not even saying that it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >evidence that this person actually did carry his almanac around with >him; you only offered evidence that an almanac was in his apartment. You're going to have to point out where I offered any experience in this area. To the best of my knowledge, you're referring to my comment: >For it to be silly, there has to be a case of an innocent reason to >carry an almanac around with you. I can't think of one. As far as I >know, almanacs - once brought home - stay on a shelf somewhere. >It's not something that someone would normally carry around on the car >seat. >There are a lot of other books that people wouldn't normally carry >around with them on the car seat, but it would seem that the FBI has >some information or experience that indicates that almanacs may be a >special case. I don't think they're imaginative enough to randomly >select an almanac as something to notice. I don't know how you can construe the above to be offering any experience or evidence. "As far as I know" is far from offering experience. It's hardly a statement that makes a conclusion. I don't know how to phrase this without sounding condescending, but "experience" is not a synonym for "opinion" or for "observation". And, it's patently impossible to offer evidence in something like this. The closest to evidence that can be offered is some sort of reference to someone else's words that were presented in evidence. I know I wasn't there. You know I wasn't there. Thus, we both know that "evidence" is not something you can reasonably ask for. Please get it right about who's offering what. I'm not offering evidence. I'm offering an alternative view to "it's silly". I'm not required to offer any kind of evidence or demonstration when I present what is clearly opinion and personal observation. You're skewing this so that it appears that I'm making some kind of judgement or conclusion. I'm not. I'm suggesting that we look at *both* possibilities: (1) the FBI is silly, and, (2) the FBI has some valid indication that the memo was a reasonable precaution. >>>If you paid attention to my words, and not the impression you have of >>>what I might say, you would see that I'm not even saying that it [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > *both* possibilities: (1) the FBI is silly, and, (2) the FBI has some > valid indication that the memo was a reasonable precaution. I'll explain my point again. You said: "As far as I know, almanacs - once brought home - stay on a shelf somewhere. It's not something that someone would normally carry around on the car seat." Now, you may not think that "as far as I know" suggests an offering of experience, but I can't think what else it could be. Then you said: "...In the FBI's search of Al-Marri's apartment, they found... among other things: ....an almanac with bookmarks in pages that provided information about major United States dams, reservoirs, waterways, and railroads." In other words, you said that the almanac was found just where you had already said that you would expect it to be, and not on someone's car seat. I have spent far too much time on this trivial point, so I will just wish you a happy new year, and move on. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >I'll explain my point again. You said: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Now, you may not think that "as far as I know" suggests an offering of >experience, but I can't think what else it could be. Oh, c'mon. You can say "as far as I know" about many things and not suggest personal experience. It only means that whatever it is, or is not, has not come to your attention. >Then you said: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >In other words, you said that the almanac was found just where you had >already said that you would expect it to be, and not on someone's car seat. Al-Marri is not the subject of the warning. He may have owned that almanac that triggered the thought to put out the warning, but where *he* kept the almanac is immaterial. The warning says, in effect, "Pay special attention to people in the possession of an almanac". That, to me, would mean that possession of an almanac deserves some consideration but not that possession of an almanac - as a single clue - necessarily means anything. Most of the officers receiving the memo are most likely to observe almanacs in cars if they see one at all. More traffic stops are made than apartments searched. >I have spent far too much time on this trivial point, so I will just >wish you a happy new year, and move on. Back at you. > I am not making any statement that in any way says that carrying > around an almanac is a warning sign of anything. What I am saying is > that it's entirely possible that the FBI has information that leads > *them* to believe this. That would remove the action from the "silly" > category and put it in the reasonable precaution category. There's where you make a big leap, Coop -- in assuming that a precaution taken by the FBI is a reasonable one. Now, I happen to agree with you, if everything you say is true, because I have a certain amount of confidence in the FBI (after all, they're treated favorably on a number of good TV shows). But you haven't stated explicitly that you have this basic institutional confidence in the FBI. I actually thought of joining the FBI for a few minutes, Coop, and not too long ago, but then I found out they have this physical training thing in Quantico, so I'm like, I don't think so. On 31 Dec 2003, R F wrote >> I am not making any statement that in any way says that carrying >> around an almanac is a warning sign of anything. What I am [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > There's where you make a big leap, Coop -- in assuming that a > precaution taken by the FBI is a reasonable one. I don't see where Tony has said he assumes "that a precaution taken by the FBi is a reasonable one" -- just that *one* of the *possible* scenarios is that the precaution could be a reasonable one to take. That is, that it cannot be taken as incontrovertible evidence that they're being silly. He also acknowledged in the part you snipped that *another* possibility is that the FBI is indeed just being silly. He's stated this view a number of times in this thread -- how many times does the guy have to repeat himself? SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs) Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote on 01 Jan 2004: > On 31 Dec 2003, R F wrote > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > He's stated this view a number of times in this thread -- how many > times does the guy have to repeat himself? That's a dangerous question, Harvey. He likes to repeat himself -- and don't we all? --- so . . . . And Richard is just playing, so you shouldn't take what he says to "Coop" seriously. But I'm sure you knew that. And Pooper is limpid-cocksure that he can defend himself against anything, so while he undoubtedly appreciates your support, he doesn't need any. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. >> I am not making any statement that in any way says that carrying >> around an almanac is a warning sign of anything. What I am saying is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >There's where you make a big leap, Coop -- in assuming that a precaution >taken by the FBI is a reasonable one. You want to show me where I made that leap? It seems to me that I'm not assuming that it's silly or that it's reasonable. >Now, I happen to agree with you, if >everything you say is true, What do you mean "if"? What have I said that could possibly be doubted? You doubt the information about Al-Marri? Google it. You think I'm going to make up names and scenarios like this? That's kind of a nasty implication, Areff. I don't mind you differing with my opinion. I do find it objectionable that you imply that what I have said may not be true. > But you haven't stated explicitly that you have this basic >institutional confidence in the FBI. I have a basic confidence in the FBI, but that's not in any way a blanket approval of the agency. I'm sure there are unscrupulous or incompetent agents, that they have made major mistakes, and that they can be expected to make major mistakes in the future. But, my knee doesn't automatically jerk towards the Silly or the Reasonable side. I do prefer to look at the various possibilities. > >> I am not making any statement that in any way says that carrying > >> around an almanac is a warning sign of anything. What I am saying is [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > think I'm going to make up names and scenarios like this? That's kind > of a nasty implication, Areff. Coop, you're really actin' kinda wack. When I say "if everything you say is true", that doesn't mean that I'm questioning your own truthfulness. I mean if there's truth in what you're truthfully reporting. You can quote or reference a newspaper article or a press release, and you can do so accurately, but that doesn't mean that the information contained in such materials itself is true. You might also innocently misreport something contained in such materials. >> >> I am not making any statement that in any way says that carrying >> >> around an almanac is a warning sign of anything. What I am saying is [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >materials itself is true. You might also innocently misreport something >contained in such materials. Absolutely. We often comment on issues based solely on what someone has reported. If that "someone" is not accurate, it's a bit of egg on the face for us but not a Cathcartian black feather. You could cover this, though, by saying "if the references you use are accurate reportings". In your usage, "you" is me and not my sources. Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com> wrote on 01 Jan 2004: >>> >> I am not making any statement that in any way says that >>> >> carrying around an almanac is a warning sign of anything. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > You could cover this, though, by saying "if the references you use > are accurate reportings". I own the copyright on that idea, but I won't sue for infringement. It's refreshing to see that you use it when you are being misrepresented the way you misrepresent others, you old hypocrite. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. >> I am not making any statement that in any way says that carrying >> around an almanac is a warning sign of anything. What I am saying [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > explicitly that you have this basic institutional confidence in the > FBI. What would happen if the FBI said that keeping a loaded handgun in your place of residence was a warning sign of possible terrorist activity? -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply >>> I am not making any statement that in any way says that carrying >>> around an almanac is a warning sign of anything. What I am saying [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >What would happen if the FBI said that keeping a loaded handgun in your >place of residence was a warning sign of possible terrorist activity? I would think the FBI would only call attention to unexpected warning signs. Otherwise, it would be silly. > So far, though, there is nothing more to the story than the FBI > releasing a warning bulletin. No gardeners have been arrested. But have they reeled in any fishermen? SignatureDena Jo Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email. >For it to be silly, there has to be a case of an innocent reason to >carry an almanac around with you. I can't think of one. As far as I >know, almanacs - once brought home - stay on a shelf somewhere. How do you get it home? SignaturePaul My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003): http://paulrooney.netfirms.com Please sponsor me for the London Marathon at: http://www.justgiving.com/london2004 >>For it to be silly, there has to be a case of an innocent reason to >>carry an almanac around with you. I can't think of one. As far as I >>know, almanacs - once brought home - stay on a shelf somewhere. > > How do you get it home? You implicate the world's largest bookstore, getting Al-azon to send it through the USPS. SignatureSimon R(az'im). Hughes >>For it to be silly, there has to be a case of an innocent reason to >>carry an almanac around with you. I can't think of one. As far as I >>know, almanacs - once brought home - stay on a shelf somewhere. > >How do you get it home? In the shopping bag, not carrying it around annotated.... Moosh:) >> This is just silly: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > For it to be silly, there has to be a case of an innocent reason to > carry an almanac around with you. I can't think of one. You like to have information to hand on sunrise / sunset, moonrise / moonset, phases of the moon because you are a fisherman / hunter / sailor / lifeboatman / ornithologist / clever dick / photographer / whatever. You need information about tidal flows because you are one or more of the above. You provide customer service at an airport / dock / rail terminal and like to have access to information about currency, distances between towns / countries. You're an amateur astronomer and find it useful to have information about visible stars / orbiting satellites .... You get the idea. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply John Dean filted: >> For it to be silly, there has to be a case of an innocent reason to >> carry an almanac around with you. I can't think of one. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >You're an amateur astronomer and find it useful to have information about >visible stars / orbiting satellites .... You're hoping to be a contestant on "Jeopardy!" and you spend every spare moment boning up on all sorts of obscure statistical facts...like foods starting with the letter Q....r >John Dean filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >boning up on all sorts of obscure statistical facts...like foods starting with >the letter Q....r Such as quesadillas, quail, quiche, quark cheese, quinces, quinoa, quickbread and Quebec pea soup? Maybe if you're a radio newscaster and want to mention what notable things happened on today's date (in different years, you jackals). Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com >>> This is just silly: >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >You get the idea. Yeah, but how many people actually carry one around? Realistically? Dunno about the Brits, but I've never, ever seen an almanac that wasn't on a shelf. >>>> This is just silly: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Dunno about the Brits, but I've never, ever seen an almanac that > wasn't on a shelf. Ditten say people carried them round. Was responding to your suggestion that there weren't innocent reasons for carrying one of which you were aware. Portability depends on the Almanac - last time I saw a Whitaker's it was pocket size. I'm sure there *were* people who carried them around, they would just be too ashamed to pull them out in public. Of course, the modern equivalent would be the electronic organiser and I haven't heard the FBI make any noises about *them*. I have an ancient Psion 5 and if I took advantage of the freeware available on-line I could carry round a map of New York, Sun and Moon tables, a plan of the London Underground, International Flight Schedules and much more besides. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply >This is just silly: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >covering everything from abbreviations to weather trends could be >used for terrorist planning. I do believe that here in the UK we have a crime called 'acting in a manner likely to assist a terrorist', or somesuch. That includes weather forecasting, driving buses, flying planes, running shops.... Rushed legislation - always a bad thing. SignaturePaul My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003): http://paulrooney.netfirms.com Please sponsor me for the London Marathon at: http://www.justgiving.com/london2004 |
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