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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004"Oriental" is a good word.
I understand the word "Oriental" to mean East Asians, but not Indonesians, and maybe not Filipinos. It refers to people of the Mongoloid race. None of the words which are meant to replace this now non-PC word do the trick. "Asian" can mean people from India. East Asians can mean Indonesians. "Mongoloid" is even more non-PC than "Oriental". And BTW "Oriental" isn't in the least bit demeaning or insulting---it's become non-PC only because it's been around for so long. Rushtown filted: >I understand the word "Oriental" to mean East Asians, but not Indonesians, and >maybe not Filipinos. It refers to people of the Mongoloid race. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the least bit demeaning or insulting---it's become non-PC only because it's >been around for so long. Problem with your suggestion is that some people will use it to mean "Arab" or "Iranian"...an "Oriental rug" generally isn't one made in Shanghai....r >Subject: Re: "Oriental" is a good word. >From: R H Draney dadoctah@earthlink.net [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >or >"Iranian"...an "Oriental rug" generally isn't one made in Shanghai....r Context matters. And there's probably a "Pondian" difference. My guess is you're right pondian, where, because of history and geography, "oriental" often means "Arabic." Not over here. > . . . there's probably a "Pondian" difference. My guess is you're right pondian, > where, because of history and geography, "oriental" often means "Arabic." > Not over here. Cf. two British usages (now extinct?) expressing dislike of foreigners: 1. Etymology of wog, supposedly Wily Oriental Gentleman. 2. Traditional dictum: "Wogs begin at Calais" (commonest ferry boat harbour for British traveling to Europe.) -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > Cf. two British usages (now extinct?) expressing dislike of foreigners: > 1. Etymology of wog, supposedly Wily Oriental Gentleman. I had always thought that 'wog' came from 'golliwog' (from the Uptons' stories and illustrations). I had never heard of this possible 'Wily Oriental Gentleman' etymology. I wonder which of these two possible etymologies is the correct one.  SignatureChristopher (Change 3032 to 3232 to reply by private e-mail) chris_johnson3032@yahoo.com spake thus: > > Cf. two British usages (now extinct?) expressing dislike of foreigners: > > 1. Etymology of wog, supposedly Wily Oriental Gentleman. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > never heard of this possible 'Wily Oriental Gentleman' > etymology. I knew it as Western Oriental Gentleman, but this seems extremely unlikely to be true. There was also a suggestion that it stood for Workers On Government Service which I also doubt. > I wonder which of these two possible etymologies is > the correct one. M-W suggests that wog derives from golliwog, but this is not accepted by all online resources. I came across an unknown usage while looking into this - the stereos which youths used to carry around on their shoulders was in the UK called a Ghetto Blaster. It seems that in some places, this was known as a Wog Box. SignatureDavid ===== [...] > 2. Traditional dictum: "Wogs begin at Calais" [...] ...and damme, sir, they stop at nothing! Mike. > [...] > > 2. Traditional dictum: "Wogs begin at Calais" [...] > > ...and damme, sir, they stop at nothing! It just means that the only non-wogian folks are the native UKers. Signature"Throw me that lipstick, darling, I wanna redo my stigmata." +-Jennifer Saunders, "Absolutely Fabulous" On 04 Jan 2004, Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack ) wrote >>> 2. Traditional dictum: "Wogs begin at Calais" [...] >> >> ...and damme, sir, they stop at nothing! >> > It just means that the only non-wogian folks are the native UKers. I'm confused...how does being a native UKer relate to not listening to Radio 2 in the morning? SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs) >> [...] >> > 2. Traditional dictum: "Wogs begin at Calais" [...] >> >> ...and damme, sir, they stop at nothing! >> >It just means that the only non-wogian folks are the native UKers. And among them, only those who live north of the Trent and south of Watford. Steve Hayes hayesmstw@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm >>> [...] >>> > 2. Traditional dictum: "Wogs begin at Calais" [...] [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >And among them, only those who live north of the Trent and south of Watford. That's me, Steve. My heart is up there but the rest of me is down here. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >>> [...] > >>> > 2. Traditional dictum: "Wogs begin at Calais" [...] [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > That's me, Steve. My heart is up there but the rest of me is down here. Do you accept naturalization? I ask because my boy during his first term at Durham epiphanized that he was, in fact, a northerner. Mike. >> >>> [...] >> >>> > 2. Traditional dictum: "Wogs begin at Calais" [...] [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Do you accept naturalization? I ask because my boy during his first >term at Durham epiphanized that he was, in fact, a northerner. There you are, then. It may have skipped a generation or three, but blood from north of the Trent recognises folks who are akin, and will out eventually. Often on a Saturday night after closing time. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >> >>> [...] > >> >>> > 2. Traditional dictum: "Wogs begin at Calais" [...] [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > from north of the Trent recognises folks who are akin, and will out > eventually. Often on a Saturday night after closing time. But the blood we have from north of the Trent is actually from north of the Tweed: will my lad be all right? Mike. >> >> >>> [...] >> >> >>> > 2. Traditional dictum: "Wogs begin at Calais" [...] [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >But the blood we have from north of the Trent is actually from north >of the Tweed: will my lad be all right? Probably even better. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >> >>It just means that the only non-wogian folks are the native UKers. >> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Do you accept naturalization? I ask because my boy during his first >term at Durham epiphanized that he was, in fact, a northerner. It was in my first term at Durham that I was reliably informed by a lad from Soonderlind that wogs came from south of the Trent, and that as my academic hood was cerise and not purple, and had no fur on it, it indicated that I had graduated from a wog college. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> >>It just means that the only non-wogian folks are the native UKers. >>> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >hood was cerise and not purple, and had no fur on it, it indicated that I had >graduated from a wog college. He was right. I was born about 10 miles north of the Trent, and only migrated south to go to university. My choices were limited, for my sort of school did not do foreign languages, and the only universities that did not demand at least one to enroll for a physics degree were London, Leicester and Hull (I think, from memories about 45 years old). Leicester was too near home, didn't fancy Hull, and was attracted (who hasn't been, both before and after Dick Whittington) by the streets paved with gold in London. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > >It was in my first term at Durham that I was reliably informed by a lad from > >Soonderlind that wogs came from south of the Trent, and that as my academic > >hood was cerise and not purple, and had no fur on it, it indicated that I had > >graduated from a wog college. Academic hood? First term? I only possessed a hood for two hours, while I sat amongst hundreds of others being graduated one June afternoon. I never saw an academic hood in Manchester in four years of study, until that day. > He was right. I was born about 10 miles north of the Trent, and only > migrated south to go to university. My choices were limited, for my sort of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > near home, didn't fancy Hull, and was attracted (who hasn't been, both > before and after Dick Whittington) Me. Can't stand the place. > by the streets paved with gold in London. SignatureDavid ===== > >Problem with your suggestion is that some people will use it to mean "Arab" > >or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > where, because of history and geography, "oriental" often means "Arabic." > Not over here. I'm right-pondian (UK) and don't remember hearing "oriental" applied to Arabs. I understand the term to apply to people from the mainland east of India and south of Russia, plus Japan. Isn't an Oriental Rug different from a Persian Rug? Cheers, Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org [...] > Isn't an Oriental Rug different from a Persian Rug? I thought I'd replied to this a couple of days ago, but it's vanished. Donald P. Schlick's book *Modern Oriental Carpets* includes Persian. Mike. >>Subject: Re: "Oriental" is a good word. >>From: R H Draney dadoctah@earthlink.net [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >where, because of history and geography, "oriental" often means "Arabic." >Not over here. "Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my knowledge. When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals came from east Asia. People from the Indian sub-continent were Indians. The term "Paki" as an abusive description of any Indian-looking person came later. The term Wog (Wily Oriental Gentleman) was often applied to all foreigners, as in the phrase "The Wogs start at Calais". Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > "Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my knowledge. > When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals came from east Asia. > People from the Indian sub-continent were Indians. The term "Paki" as an > abusive description of any Indian-looking person came later. The term Wog > (Wily Oriental Gentleman) was often applied to all foreigners, as in the > phrase "The Wogs start at Calais". When I was young, we used to visit friends of the family who lived in Selston (just over the line in Nottinghamshire). I don't remember what the official name for their street was, but it was known to everyone as "Packy's Puzzle", apparently because of the habit of the inhabitants to buy from travelling salesmen, and then slip out of the back door to the neighbours' house when they saw the salesman coming to collect his money. I thought for a long time that the "Packy" was really "Paki", but I don't know that door-to-door salesmen were commonly from Pakistan; and I think the name may have been in use longer than "Pakistan". So I don't know where the name came from. Fran SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >> "Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my >> knowledge. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > think the name may have been in use longer than "Pakistan". So I don't > know where the name came from. I would guess that it came from packman which is another word for pedlar. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> "Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my >>> knowledge. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I would guess that it came from packman which is another word for pedlar. That sounds likely. Quite a few of the streets around the area where I grew up had informal names that were nothing like the formal names that the Post Office recognised: we had "Organ Alley" (Victoria Street, later Queen Street) and "Poddlehole Yard" (Holmes Yord). I only knew of the formal names because I worked on the Christmas post. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com > I only knew of the formal names >because I worked on the Christmas post. That takes me back, Frances. In Nottingham we had all sorts of people on the Christmas post, not just students. I remember a vicar who used to come, complete with dog collar. His daughter was at the college I attended. Everybody used to get back more or less drunk from glasses of something or other that was warming, from houses on the Christmas morning delivery. In London we worked Christmases at Mornington Crescent (believe it or not) sorting mail, a much less interesting job. It was for Hertfordshire, which is a coincidence, as that's where I've ended up living 40 years later. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>I only knew of the formal names >>because I worked on the Christmas post. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > sorting mail, a much less interesting job. It was for Hertfordshire, which > is a coincidence, as that's where I've ended up living 40 years later. I did Christmas sorting and deliveries for Hoddesdon Post Office for about 4 years. I'll never forget those 3 Alsatians down by the lock. They refused to take me on when I turned 21 because they'd have to pay full wages. SignatureRob Bannister "Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote... > I did Christmas sorting and deliveries for Hoddesdon Post Office for > about 4 years. I'll never forget those 3 Alsatians down by the lock. > They refused to take me on when I turned 21 because they'd have to pay > full wages. ?! Matti > "Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote... > > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ?! I was wondering about this too. > > "Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote... > > > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I was wondering about this too. Clearly those refugees from Alsace-Lorraine ran that lock for next to nothing. > "Robert Bannister" wrote... >> I did Christmas sorting and deliveries for Hoddesdon Post Office for >> about 4 years. I'll never forget those 3 Alsatians down by the lock. >> They refused to take me on when I turned 21 because they'd have to >> pay full wages. > > ?! Yeah, I've never heard of dogs paying money to anybody, whether they attack them (take them on) or not. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > "Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ?! The Post Office, not the alsatians. SignatureRob Bannister >>>I only knew of the formal names >>>because I worked on the Christmas post. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >They refused to take me on when I turned 21 because they'd have to pay >full wages. Jeanne and I passed the lock yesterday[1], but didn't notice any Alsatians (or other foreigners or dogs), but it was raining. [1] It's Tuesday already. The 'yesterday' was Sunday. I have great trouble keeping up with AUE. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > Jeanne and I passed the lock yesterday[1], but didn't notice any Alsatians > (or other foreigners or dogs), but it was raining. Let me see. If they were still alive, those alsatians would now be at least 45 years old and possibly toothless. SignatureRob Bannister >> Jeanne and I passed the lock yesterday[1], but didn't notice any Alsatians >> (or other foreigners or dogs), but it was raining. > >Let me see. If they were still alive, those alsatians would now be at >least 45 years old and possibly toothless. Then I'm not surprised that they stayed in their kennels. Us old folk don't take kindly to getting wet. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>I only knew of the formal names >>because I worked on the Christmas post. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > sorting mail, a much less interesting job. It was for Hertfordshire, which > is a coincidence, as that's where I've ended up living 40 years later. When I lived in London, I worked on the Christmas post one year, when I was back in college, after working for the Post Office Supplies Division for a few years. I got a job in the canteen in the building where I had been working. Canteen workers got paid better thatn delivery or sorting people - and they needed to, since they worked longer than anyone else. Whenever there was a slack period in the sorting office, or the round wasn;t ready, the supervisors would send people to the canteen. The first week of the Christmas post, we took hardly any money - just IOUs. After the first payday, we collected a lot of cash. The canteen manager said that happened every Christmas. many of the workers were not students; they were just people who either didn't have regukar work, or who didn't make enough in their regular jobs to put on a good Christmas. Some were teachers from the local Islington schools. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com [...] > >> When I was young, we used to visit friends of the family who lived in > >> Selston (just over the line in Nottinghamshire). I don't remember what [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >> back door to the neighbours' house when they saw the salesman coming > >> to collect his money. [...] > Quite a few of the streets around the area where I grew up had informal > names that were nothing like the formal names that the Post Office > recognised: we had "Organ Alley" (Victoria Street, later Queen Street) > and "Poddlehole Yard" (Holmes Yord). I only knew of the formal names > because I worked on the Christmas post. I think I've mentioned these before, but I wonder how many popular street names survive all official efforts to call them something else. I believe they should be recorded. Carmarthen (Wales) ineradicably has "Jail Hill" for the official "Castle Hill", even though I don't think there's been a nick there in living memory; in Reading (England) many people don't even notice that "Smelly Alley" is really called "Union Street"; and in Barcelona I remember that even in the caudillo's time nobody ever used "Avenida del Generalisimo Francisco Franco" for the "Diagonal". Jacqui, now presumably too busy mothering twenty-four hours a day to entertain us, reminded us that Magpie Lane in Oxford was long (though sadly no longer)known to all as "Gropecunt Lane". It must have been one of Bill Bryson's books which alerted me to an American watercourse rejoicing in the name of "Ticklecunt Creek". The Tetons, and a Scottish peak called in the Gaelic "The Devil's Prick", are well-enough-known already. Mike. > I think I've mentioned these before, but I wonder how many popular > street names survive all official efforts to call them something > else. A well-known example is Sixth Avenue in New York City, which was renamed Avenue of the Americas by Mayor LaGuardia, but continued to be called Sixth Avenue by two or three generations of New Yorkers until (IIRC) the authorities gave up. Signature--- Joe Fineman jcf@TheWorld.com ||: One compass points north. Two compasses point at each :|| ||: other. :|| > > I think I've mentioned these before, but I wonder how many popular > > street names survive all official efforts to call them something [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > called Sixth Avenue by two or three generations of New Yorkers until > (IIRC) the authorities gave up.> It's still officially "Avenue of the Americas", but instead of single street signs there are double signs -- each one has one that says "Avenue of the Americas" and another that says "6 AV". It is standard for the upscale businesses located on 6th Avenue in the corporate-looking subset of Midtown to use "Avenue of the Americas" on their stationery and such. Coop still says "Avenue of the Americas". I think La Guardia said it was his biggest mistake, or something like that. For a subset of the length of 6th Avenue there are these circle things, each of which honors a country in the Americas. [ ... ] > It's still officially "Avenue of the Americas", but instead of single > street signs there are double signs -- each one has one that says "Avenue [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I think La Guardia said it was his biggest mistake, or something like > that. "When I make a mistake, it's a beaut." SignatureBob Lieblich When I make a mistake, it's a beaut >> > I think I've mentioned these before, but I wonder how many popular >> > street names survive all official efforts to call them something [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I think La Guardia said it was his biggest mistake, or something like >that. I was in Tampa earlier today. My destination was a place I haven't been to before in an area of Tampa that I'm not familiar with. My directions from the man I was going to see included "turn left on Buffalo Avenue and then take the first right". I couldn't find the damn place. Finally, I called the guy on my mobile and re-asked for directions. He asked where I was, and then told me I'd gone miles past the turn on Buffalo. I re-traced my route and *still* couldn't find Buffalo. I called him back - frustrated as hell - and he offered to come to me and lead me to his place. I told him where I was, and he laughed and said I was three blocks from his place. "Buffalo Avenue" was re-named "Martin Luther King Drive" about ten years ago. He'd forgotten. He drives down MLK Drive every day, and still thinks of it as "Buffalo Ave". The brightest spot of the day was having black beans and rice followed by flan and cafe con leche in my favorite Cuban restaurant on Columbus Ave. >I called him back - frustrated as hell - and he offered to come to me >and lead me to his place. I told him where I was, and he laughed and >said I was three blocks from his place. "Buffalo Avenue" was re-named >"Martin Luther King Drive" about ten years ago. He'd forgotten. He >drives down MLK Drive every day, and still thinks of it as "Buffalo >Ave". That happened to me the last time I visited the family in France. Because of one thing and another, I'd not been for years, and had quite forgotten where my own family house was. I got to what I thought was the road, but its name was not familiar, so Jeanne called Sonia on her mobile, a call that had to bounce back to the UK and then to France! Sonia sent younger son out to find us, which he did within seconds, for the road I was on was a continuation of their road, but just changed its name halfway along. Red faces all around, for it had *always* had that change, and none of us had ever noticed. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > >I called him back - frustrated as hell - and he offered to come to me > >and lead me to his place. I told him where I was, and he laughed and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > its name was not familiar, so Jeanne called Sonia on her mobile, a call > that had to bounce back to the UK and then to France! Nope. A call in France from a UK mobile to a French number (fixed or mobile) is connected directly by the French Telco, then the bill is transferred to the UK Telco plus a "handling charge". OTOH, a call made in France from any phone (French, UK, fixed, mobile) to a UK mobile which is in France has to to go to the UK and back again. When my colleagues and I are away on business we frequently phone each other's mobiles - that's two transatlantic calls from one hotel bedroom to the next. SignatureDavid ===== >docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >mobile) is connected directly by the French Telco, then the bill is >transferred to the UK Telco plus a "handling charge". That handling charge must be steep, then. The call only took a couple of minutes and cost several pounds, even though she's got a contract rather then a pre-paid. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > I was in Tampa earlier today. My destination was a place I haven't > been to before in an area of Tampa that I'm not familiar with. My > directions from the man I was going to see included "turn left on > Buffalo Avenue and then take the first right". I couldn't find the > damn place. Was it at 2040 North Dale Mabry? SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >> I was in Tampa earlier today. My destination was a place I haven't >> been to before in an area of Tampa that I'm not familiar with. My [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Was it at 2040 North Dale Mabry? No, but Buffalo (aka MLK) does cross Dale Mabry. Very close to the Tampa Bay Buc's stadium. Don't know who is at 2040. There are some, errr, ahhh, "exotic" clubs in the area, though. > "Skitt" wrote: >>> I was in Tampa earlier today. My destination was a place I haven't >>> been to before in an area of Tampa that I'm not familiar with. My [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Tampa Bay Buc's stadium. Don't know who is at 2040. There are some, > errr, ahhh, "exotic" clubs in the area, though. Right. Put the address in Google. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >> "Skitt" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Right. Put the address in Google. I will leave the question of how you know the address of Mons Venus unasked. I'll just assume that you wrote them to ask for the current address and phone number of your "niece". >>>>> I was in Tampa earlier today. My destination was a place I >>>>> haven't been to before in an area of Tampa that I'm not familiar [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > unasked. I'll just assume that you wrote them to ask for the current > address and phone number of your "niece". Naah, I never went there, but several of my work buddies did. I Googled for the address. My "nieces" were in the local area. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > >> People from the Indian sub-continent were Indians. The term "Paki" as an > >> abusive description of any Indian-looking person came later. The term Wog [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I would guess that it came from packman which is another word for pedlar. Were the "Irish travelers", or "tinkers" ever referred to as pedlars? Wasn't the peddling of stuffs one of the trades or ruses practiced by them? (In the US, Gypsies of both the traveler and the Roma sorts were renowned as sellers of horses.) I am not sure (cf later than your post in this thread) if the British usage of Paddy was ever generic for Irishman, though it became so in the US (along with "Mick", though without the opprobrium). And Paddy for Patrick was just as often seen as Packy. My grandfather was called Packy, and _his_ father was Patsy. I, too, never heard of Packy used generically. >> "Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my >> knowledge. When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > and I think the name may have been in use longer than "Pakistan". So > I don't know where the name came from. Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do with it. m. >>>"Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my >>>knowledge. When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do with it. > m. The same in what way: to mean an Irishman? I've never heard that in England. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >>>>"Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my >>>>knowledge. When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >The same in what way: to mean an Irishman? I've never heard that in England. How would you "hear" the difference between "Paki" and "Packy"? You may not have seen it, but you may have heard it although I'm not sure how anyone can say "Packy" any differently than "Paki". >>>>>"Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my >>>>>knowledge. When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > may not have seen it, but you may have heard it although I'm not sure > how anyone can say "Packy" any differently than "Paki". No, that was what I said before: that I assumed "packy" meant "paki". I was asking how "packy" was used in the way as "paddy". SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >>>>>>"Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my >>>>>>knowledge. When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >No, that was what I said before: that I assumed "packy" meant "paki". I >was asking how "packy" was used in the way as "paddy". I understood perfectly well what you meant. My comment had to do with what you wrote. It's often done here, you know. Some do it by Oy!ing. I don't Oy!. If I can't make a production about it, it's not worth doing. >> On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 11:09:16 -0500, Frances Kemmish >> How would you "hear" the difference between "Paki" and "Packy"? You >> may not have seen it, but you may have heard it although I'm not sure >> how anyone can say "Packy" any differently than "Paki". > >No, that was what I said before: that I assumed "packy" meant "paki". I >was asking how "packy" was used in the way as "paddy". I don't think you are decades younger than me, Frances. There were no Pakis when I was a kid. Pakistan did not exist until 1947. There may have been people from Pakistan in Britain in the early 1950s, but the term Paki as an abusive one did not come into being until the 1960s, as far as I know. Maybe even later. Packy was not in use in Nottingham, which shows how dialects can change in the 15 miles or so that separated our birth places. We called them hawkers, or gypsies if they were, or looked like, Romanies. In those days the gypsies probably all were true Romanies, and people were quite superstitious, thinking that they had "the evil eye" and people would therefore buy the clothes pegs, get their pots and pans mended, and have their knives sharpened, just to ensure that the gypsies left as soon as possible. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >> Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do with it. >> m. > >The same in what way: to mean an Irishman? I've never heard that in England. All Irishmen were called "Paddy" when I was a kid. A diminutive of Patrick, which is the patron saint of Ireland, no? Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do with it. >>>m. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > All Irishmen were called "Paddy" when I was a kid. A diminutive of Patrick, > which is the patron saint of Ireland, no? If people "oy" Tony for writing "people that", can I "oy" "Patrick which"? Anyway, they were called "Mick" just as much. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do with it. >>>>m. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >If people "oy" Tony for writing "people that", can I "oy" "Patrick >which"? Anyway, they were called "Mick" just as much. You can Oy as much as you like. I am an unbeliever, and don't believe in saints, so 'Patrick' is just a word, a diminutive of which is 'Paddy', which Irish were nicknamed when I were a lad even if you knew their true names. I think the term 'Mick', often used abusively, came later. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >> All Irishmen were called "Paddy" when I was a kid. A diminutive of Patrick, > >> which is the patron saint of Ireland, no? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > which Irish were nicknamed when I were a lad even if you knew their true > names. I think the term 'Mick', often used abusively, came later. I must take pity on the grilling dealt out to Tony Cooper, while Tony Blair offends often in the same way and it goes without comment. Or does this mean that you still pay attention to Cooper, and ignore Blair? "Pat Durkin" <durkinpa@nothome.com> wrote on 06 Jan 2004: >> >> All Irishmen were called "Paddy" when I was a kid. A >> >> diminutive of Patrick, which is the patron saint >> >> of Ireland, no? >> >> >> >If people "oy" Tony for writing "people that", can I "oy" >> >"Patrick which"? Anyway, they were called "Mick" just as much. [...] > I must take pity on the grilling dealt out to Tony Cooper, while > Tony Blair offends often in the same way and it goes without > comment. > > Or does this mean that you still pay attention to Cooper, and > ignore Blair? Tony Blair does not post to an English usage newsgroup or pretend to know anything more about English than what comes out of his mouth, though, does he? SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. >> >> All Irishmen were called "Paddy" when I was a kid. A diminutive of >Patrick, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Or does this mean that you still pay attention to Cooper, and ignore Blair? I personally think that Blair is one of the most dangerous Prime Ministers this country has ever had in my lifetime. I have no party politics and have never voted in a General Election. He combines fervent zeal with indecisiveness about the country he rules, always looking abroad. He and the people around him are incompetent, paranoid and dictatorial. The infrastructure of Britain - railways, health service, secondary education... you name it - are in a worse state than I have ever seen them despite the billions of pounds thrown into them. We are supposed to have the 4th largest GNP in the world, yet much of Britain resembles a banana republic without even the bananas. I could go on for a few million words, but you get the drift. During the past 30 years, I spent 15 living abroad, and am in a better position than most to compare and criticize. Coming back was the very worst decision I ever made in my whole life. The only thing England has going for it is the people, nice people who one meets in cafes, bars, supermarkets, ..... and boinks. OTOH, Coop is one of the more welcome contributors to AUE, IMO, with his perceptiveness, and the way he puts things. I find him both erudite and amusing. I would not apply both those adjectives to too many people here, and I have found over the years, quite by coincidence, that the people who were either in my killfile when I had one, or who I now usually ignore, are mainly those who seem to loathe him. Strange, that. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >I personally think that Blair is one of the most dangerous Prime Ministers >this country has ever had in my lifetime. I have no party politics and have >never voted in a General Election. People who don't vote, when they are allowed to, deserve precisely what they get. They are in no position to complain about it, either. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net >>I personally think that Blair is one of the most dangerous Prime Ministers >>this country has ever had in my lifetime. I have no party politics and have >>never voted in a General Election. > > People who don't vote, when they are allowed to, deserve precisely > what they get. They are in no position to complain about it, either. Well put, Charles. I find it difficult to understand why anyone should think that not voting is something to brag about: it seems to me an opting out of responsibility, a dereliction of the duties of citizenship in a democracy. As a woman, I am keenly aware of the efforts made by others to secure my chance to vote which, I believe, imposes on me an obligation to exercise that right. I am also keenly aware of the political consequences of apathy. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > Well put, Charles. I find it difficult to understand why anyone should > think that not voting is something to brag about: it seems to me an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > obligation to exercise that right. I am also keenly aware of the > political consequences of apathy. I now live in a country where voting, or rather turning up at the polling booth, is compulsory. However, my view is that voting is, in most cases, a complete waste of time. Unless one is lucky enough to be in a marginal electorate, one's vote will have no influence on the final result whatsoever, and, to make things worse, even if one's vote does have an effect, one is faced with no real choice: there are in England, Australia, the USA, etc., only two parties who have any chance of winning, and the difference between their policies is so small, what does it matter? Moreover, although elections are frequently fought over particular issues, when whoever it is does get in, they claim a mandate for all the small print items too, frequently putting off the item they were voted in for. Whoever is elected will continue to feather their own nests, increase taxes (overall, even if they bring a reduction in for a chosen few) and make curious foreign policy decisions. I do understand your argument about votes for women, but I don't think women are better off because they got the vote - at best, any improvements came about as a spin-off from the movement. The right to vote is important, but the effect of voting has been nullified by the 2-party system. SignatureRob Bannister >> Well put, Charles. I find it difficult to understand why anyone should >> think that not voting is something to brag about: it seems to me an [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >winning, and the difference between their policies is so small, what >does it matter? There's an interesting AUEish point lurking in there. Am I right in assuming that AusE electorate = BrE constituency = AmE district = CanE riding? There can't be many things which all four countries have a different word for. >Moreover, although elections are frequently fought over particular >issues, when whoever it is does get in, they claim a mandate for all the >small print items too, frequently putting off the item they were voted >in for. Or just change their minds. The big issue here at the moment is the government's determination to force through university top-up fees - something their manifesto at the last election specifically pledged them not to introduce. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". >>I now live in a country where voting, or rather turning up at the >>polling booth, is compulsory. However, my view is that voting is, in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > riding? There can't be many things which all four countries have a > different word for. Hmm. Now I'm not sure. "Electorate" is used in its normal meaning, but I'm certain we don't use "constituency" or "district". "Marginal electorate" is definitely used to indicate a place as well as a segment of the population, so I presume that's what we use for the voting region too. SignatureRob Bannister >>>I now live in a country where voting, or rather turning up at the >>>polling booth, is compulsory. However, my view is that voting is, in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >of the population, so I presume that's what we use for the voting region >too. A constituency in England is a geographic entity containing voters, who elect an MP to parliament or a councillor to the local council. Constituencies do not have to correspond with borough boundaries, and local and parliamentary constituencies do not have to be congruent. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>I personally think that Blair is one of the most dangerous Prime Ministers >>>this country has ever had in my lifetime. I have no party politics and have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >opting out of responsibility, a dereliction of the duties of citizenship >in a democracy. Laura, you live in England. Please read the first part of my response to Charles. In my particular case it is nothing of the sort. And if you think we really live in a democracy, where the politicians only want to promise you things in the run-up to a general election, and then do just as they please until a month or two before the next one, then you have a strange idea of democracy. >As a woman, I am keenly aware of the efforts made by >others to secure my chance to vote which, I believe, imposes on me an >obligation to exercise that right. I am also keenly aware of the >political consequences of apathy. Those others did that in 1918 and 1928, long before either of us was even thought of, in a far different world. Before you start talking about apathy, you should possibly think of other reasons, particularly since you have met both Jeanne and me. Did you think that I was apathetic? With a wife like Jeanne? Do you think that an apathetic man could hold on to such a woman? I never thought I'd have to give you, of all people in the world, the advice not to shoot off speculations before the person accused has had time to respond. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>>I personally think that Blair is one of the most dangerous Prime Ministers >>>>this country has ever had in my lifetime. I have no party politics and have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > please until a month or two before the next one, then you have a strange > idea of democracy. We may not live in a perfect democracy (I'm not sure that any such thing is ever possible) but, whatever the flaws of our system of government, we have considerable freedom, compared with those who live in many other parts of the world. As the grandchild of immigrants who were given the opportunity to build a life and a family here which was denied them in their countries of birth (where, indeed, they faced certain death), I cannot but be grateful for this. >>As a woman, I am keenly aware of the efforts made by >>others to secure my chance to vote which, I believe, imposes on me an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Those others did that in 1918 and 1928, long before either of us was even > thought of, in a far different world. I feel a connection with those whose actions in the past have secured my present comfort. I think it is a great pity that others don't. Before you start talking about > apathy, you should possibly think of other reasons, particularly since you > have met both Jeanne and me. Did you think that I was apathetic? With a > wife like Jeanne? Do you think that an apathetic man could hold on to such > a woman? I never thought I'd have to give you, of all people in the world, > the advice not to shoot off speculations before the person accused has had > time to respond. Please remember that I was responding to your earlier statement that you have never voted. Voting rates are often quite low in UK elections. In such circumstances, it is not difficult for extremist candidates to exploit apathy. If a candidate whose views were grossly unacceptable to you was likely to win in your constituency, would you still decline to vote? I did not say that I considered you to be an apathetic person - you have inferred that mistakenly. I would not presume to make such a judgement on the basis of a very brief personal acquaintance. But you have not offered any positive reason for not exercising your right to vote so I would consider the fact that you do not do so an example of electoral apathy. And I think that is dangerous. One important feature of our democracy is the right to express criticism freely. In my view, such a right is accompanied by the responsibility to take whatever action is possible to correct that which has provoked the critical view. Throwing cushions from the cheap seats is not good enough. I am not a supporter of Tony Blair but I have taken opportunities available to me to express dissension, as I have with previous governments. The minimum opportunity is the right to vote against the government, even in a constituency where you believe that your vote makes no difference. Even a spoilt ballot paper registers *something*. What would life be like in England if everyone refused to vote? The system is far from perfect but at least it incorporates the opportunity to work to change it. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>I personally think that Blair is one of the most dangerous Prime Ministers >>>>>this country has ever had in my lifetime. I have no party politics and have [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >we have considerable freedom, compared with those who live in many other >parts of the world. That is true, but neither of us has to live in those other parts of the world right now, so such comparisons are odious! In fact, the freedom we have is just a veneer on an autocratic state, in my opinion. You and I, as educated people, have had much greater degrees of freedom than many. A 45 year-old riveter on the Clyde, thrown out of work when the shipbuilding yards closed down, stands little chance of re-employment. Even if he moves south, he'd find that the locals could not understand his speech. >As the grandchild of immigrants who were given the >opportunity to build a life and a family here which was denied them in >their countries of birth (where, indeed, they faced certain death), I >cannot but be grateful for this. That I appreciate, but history is something that is in the past. Few people in power bother to learn any lessons from it. >>>As a woman, I am keenly aware of the efforts made by >>>others to secure my chance to vote which, I believe, imposes on me an [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I feel a connection with those whose actions in the past have secured my >present comfort. I think it is a great pity that others don't. No harm in being grateful to them. I think a great deal of those who signed the Magna Carta, but, with this government wanting to abolish habeas corpus (which they have done for those 14 'terrorists' who are locked up who knows where, with no formal accusations, no legal representation etc.) and certain trials by jury, proposing new roles and lower status for the monarchy[1], empowering traffic wardens to make on-the-spot fines for which they will have swingeing new powers, being paranoid about everything, I suspect that while the paper that the Magna Carta is written on is valuable, its ideas are no longer thought to be the bedrock of British justice. I suspect, of all of the major countries in the west, Britain could most easily become a dictatorship. You have seen, or should have seen, how Blair has treated parliament as his poodle. George Orwell had Britain in mind when he wrote '1984', not Russia. [1] All judges, politicians, armed forces etc. swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen, not to the government. The Queen is the institution that represents Britain when push comes to shove, as far as I am aware, not a bunch of here-today, gone-tomorrow politicians. Change that, and Britain could easily slip into being a dictatorial republic. We have no written constitution to guide us, after all, and the Iraq war should have proved that prime ministers can literally do what they want to. I doubt that Blair would have resigned had he lost that vote, and if he had, with the opposition as it was then, he'd have swept the board again if he had had to call an election. >Before you start talking about >> apathy, you should possibly think of other reasons, particularly since you [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Please remember that I was responding to your earlier statement that you >have never voted. Voting rates are often quite low in UK elections. 40% of the people did not vote in the last *general* election not because of apathy, but because they're sick of lying, cheating politicians, and spin. This has been documented fairly well in the broadsheets over the years. Voting rates in *local* elections are low because of apathy. >In >such circumstances, it is not difficult for extremist candidates to >exploit apathy. If a candidate whose views were grossly unacceptable to >you was likely to win in your constituency, would you still decline to >vote? All candidates' views are grossly unacceptable to me. They are politicians, who are following isms and ologies. Jeanne and I are still living here only because she is an only child, and her mother is still alive. >I did not say that I considered you to be an apathetic person - you have >inferred that mistakenly. I would not presume to make such a judgement >on the basis of a very brief personal acquaintance. But you have not >offered any positive reason for not exercising your right to vote so I >would consider the fact that you do not do so an example of electoral >apathy. And I think that is dangerous. Why should I have to have positive reasons? But if you want one, I positively loathe politicians and all they stand for. From Wilson's "white hot heat of technological revolution", through "on yer bike" and the Thatcherian notion of money "trickling down", to this "today (9/11) would be a good day to release bad news" Blairite rottenness, all politicians prove to me is that - they could not run a toffee apple stall effectively, let alone a country - they are able to fool enough of the people enough of the time before general elections to usually get re-elected. >One important feature of our democracy is the right to express criticism >freely. In my view, such a right is accompanied by the responsibility to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >your vote makes no difference. Even a spoilt ballot paper registers >*something*. No it does not. If only 10% of the population turned out for a general election, some government would still get elected in our 'first past the post' system. There may be questions asked afterwards, but look at all of the reports, public enquiries etc. over the years, creating intense press volumes, but usually filed and forgotten. We do not have a 'Freedom of Information' act, and probably never will. All governments throughout my lifetime have, in their own way, considered the public as an irritation, to be ignored as far as possible. But what have they all done if 'public opinion' makes them panic? Rush through ill-conceived, knee-jerk measures that always do more harm than good. >What would life be like in England if everyone refused to vote? Probably a finer place if it meant the abolition of politicians. >The >system is far from perfect but at least it incorporates the opportunity >to work to change it. Sorry, Laura, but my life has made me very cynical indeed about politicians, law and justice, and government in Britain. I was speaking at great length with Sonia yesterday, as she enters her 32nd year of residence in France. She has travelled much more extensively over the world than I have and seen how many countries operate, has some problems with particular facets of the French inheritance laws, but on the whole, her life and that of my family have not been adversely affected by any legislation that the French have created in all of those years, and she would not return to live in England for any reason. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>I personally think that Blair is one of the most dangerous Prime Ministers >>>this country has ever had in my lifetime. I have no party politics and have [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >others to secure my chance to vote which, I believe, imposes on me an >obligation to exercise that right. Good woman. >I am also keenly aware of the >political consequences of apathy. Yes, but let's not go there. Perhaps we need reminding of that time, but I think we are often enough. I am not, mind you, downplaying the significance of it, or the apathy that allowed it. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net >>I personally think that Blair is one of the most dangerous Prime Ministers >>this country has ever had in my lifetime. I have no party politics and have >>never voted in a General Election. > >People who don't vote, when they are allowed to, deserve precisely >what they get. They are in no position to complain about it, either. Do you know anything at all about constituencies in England, Charles? I have always lived in constituencies that were either so left or right wing that even a few thousand votes would have made absolutely no difference at all in a general election. I also have absolutely no faith o belief in 'ologies' or 'isms' of any kind whatsoever, whether in politics or religion. Anyone who thinks he or she or some mythical being can encapsulate the total essence of life into some sort of manifesto, whether Labour, Conservative, Republican, Christian, et al is either potty, or a charlatan leading credulous fools. But most of the people I know personally are either very religious or strong supporters of one political party or another, and I simply do not ever enter into such discussions with them. Such discussions are a total waste of time. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >People who don't vote, when they are allowed to, deserve precisely > >what they get. They are in no position to complain about it, either. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > left or right wing that even a few thousand votes would have made > absolutely no difference at all in a general election. Same here. To nobody's surprise, in the last presidential election, Al Gore got 1.3 million more votes in California than George Bush, giving him all 54 electoral votes. The *only* thing those who didn't vote could have done to influence the election would have been to turn out in huge numbers to vote for Bush, which would have made him win without the mess in Florida. Those who complain about him as president could have done nothing to affect the outcome by voting. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The law of supply and demand tells us 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that when the price of something is Palo Alto, CA 94304 |artificially set below market level, |there will soon be none of that thing kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |left--as you may have noticed the (650)857-7572 |last time you tried to buy something |for nothing. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke >>>I personally think that Blair is one of the most dangerous Prime Ministers >>>this country has ever had in my lifetime. I have no party politics and have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Do you know anything at all about constituencies in England, Charles? Not a thing, Robin. I've heard English cider can be very good, but that's all I know about the country. >I have always lived in constituencies that were either so left or right >wing that even a few thousand votes would have made absolutely no >difference at all in a general election. I may have got it wrong, but I got the impression you place no stock in your voting rights in general. I lived in an American constituency where the only vote in local elections that mattered was in the primaries, since Democrats always win in liberal Prince George's county, God bless her. I never failed to vote in them; there was no need to in the local elections that followed. I canvassed too if it looked like a race would be close. I reckon we're heavily involved in the politics of the land whether we want to be or not. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net >>>>I personally think that Blair is one of the most dangerous Prime Ministers >>>>this country has ever had in my lifetime. I have no party politics and have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >I may have got it wrong, but I got the impression you place no stock >in your voting rights in general. No, nota tall. If I lived in a marginal constituency, where a small swing in the votes can tip the balance in our 'first past the post' system, I'd take voting in *general* elections far more seriously, but in the traditional British way of using my vote to get somebody *out* of office rather than getting them *in*. The majority of the voters nearly always support the party in power unless they are totally pissed off with it, as they were when Thatcher defeated Labour, and Blair subsequently defeated Major. In these cases, there are huge swings in the marginal seats, and the new, changed government usually gets into power with a large majority in parliament. >I lived in an American constituency >where the only vote in local elections that mattered was in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >looked like a race would be close. I reckon we're heavily involved in >the politics of the land whether we want to be or not. Your system is so different from ours, Charles, that I don't understand the leverage that small numbers of votes can provide. However, I was very interested in Evan's post on the voting when Bush was elected. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > The majority of the voters nearly always > support the party in power unless they are totally pissed off with it More than that: they vote for the incumbent, whatever party he or she belongs to. SignatureRob Bannister >> The majority of the voters nearly always >> support the party in power unless they are totally pissed off with it > >More than that: they vote for the incumbent, whatever party he or she >belongs to. Yes they do, except in marginal constituencies. In all of my life in England I've lived in constituencies where if the local candidate was a monkey, the people would vote Labour if it wore a red rosette, Conservative if it wore a blue one. I've not tried an orange-rosetted constituency (Liberal something or other) yet. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >> Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do >> with it. m. > > The same in what way: to mean an Irishman? I've never heard that in > England. Packy is as much a diminutive of Patrick as Paddy is. I just wondered if it might have been used in that area. A sort of *Irish* hide and seek. m. >>> Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do >>> with it. m. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Packy is as much a diminutive of Patrick as Paddy is. Says who? I never heard it in my life, and I've known many Irish people. Come back Padraig, please. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >>> Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do > >>> with it. m. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Says who? I never heard it in my life, and I've known many Irish people. > Come back Padraig, please. I had never heard of it either, but "Packey" (not "Packy") is given as a nickname for "Patrick" by www.babynamer.com at http://tools.oxygen.com/babynamer/TypeASearch.cfm?Gender=B&Unique=1&TellMeAbout= Packey or http://tinyurl.com/3ay8q SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com >> >>> Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do >> >>> with it. m. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >http://tinyurl.com/3ay8q I can't tell from that which country the name survey was made in. I suggest that to test it out, you visit a part of London such as Camden Town where many Irish live, walk up to a big one in a pub, tap him on his shoulder and ask "Are you really a Packey, or just a Mick?" When you get out of hospital, please report back to us. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >> >>> Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do > >> >>> with it. m. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > When you get out of hospital, please report back to us. Sounds like you misunderstood my point. I was commenting on the fact that "Packey" is a diminutive of the given name "Patrick," as a previous poster had alleged--I was, in other words, answering your "Says who?" remark. I was making no comment whatsoever about ethnic terms. SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com >> >> >>> Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do >> >> >>> with it. m. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >had alleged--I was, in other words, answering your "Says who?" remark. I was >making no comment whatsoever about ethnic terms. Raymond, you are in danger of taking me seriously again. But do you think that in most BrE accents, "Packey" would be pronounced differently from "Paki"? If so, you are wrong. I did not miss your point. I had never heard of any Irishman referred to as "Packey" or "Packy" before, nor ever heard that it was a diminutive of "Patrick". I'm not a betting man, but I suspect that I've met more *real* Irish, from both parts of Ireland, than most Americans have. I have seen the references that other Googlers have discovered, but I have asked the man who knows, Padraig, for his comments as part of our "Happy New Year" exchange. He knows that it is in response to an AUE matter, though, and I wouldn't blame him if he ignores it. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >> >> >>> Packy is used in the same way as Paddy. It may have something to do > >> >> >>> with it. m. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > that in most BrE accents, "Packey" would be pronounced differently from > "Paki"? If so, you are wrong. On the contrary, I presumed (perhaps wrongly) that "Packey" and "Paki" would be pronounced identically in *all* dialects. But as I said, I was not addressing the question of ethnic terms but only the question of whether "Packey" was in fact a diminutive of "Patrick." Whether the rise of the term "Paki" has had some effect on the popularity of the nickname "Packey" would be an interesting question, but I had no information on it, and it has nothing to do with what I was addressing in my post. Nor did I say anything--nor could I have done so, lacking any information on the subject--on the question of whether "Packey" was ever used to represent the average Irishman, as "Mick" and "Patty" apparently have been. > I did not miss your point. I had never heard of any Irishman referred to as > "Packey" or "Packy" before, nor ever heard that it was a diminutive of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > exchange. He knows that it is in response to an AUE matter, though, and I > wouldn't blame him if he ignores it. SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: >>Packy is as much a diminutive of Patrick as Paddy is. > >Says who? I never heard it in my life, and I've known many Irish people. Packy Bonner, the goalkeeper for Ireland's '94 World Cup team, for one. >Come back Padraig, please. Seconded. SignatureMickwick >In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Packy Bonner, the goalkeeper for Ireland's '94 World Cup team, for one. Oh, it's sport. I don't do sport. >>Come back Padraig, please. > >Seconded. All those in favour say "Aye". Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, in alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> writes >>In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: >>>Come back Padraig, please. >> >>Seconded. > >All those in favour say "Aye". Aye. SignatureMark Browne If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the "From" address will be rejected > >In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: > >>Come back Padraig, please. > > > >Seconded. > > All those in favour say "Aye". Aye! But I think this is useless -- I doubt Padraig is lurking. SignatureSML ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu <http://pirate-women.com> >>>In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Aye! But I think this is useless -- I doubt Padraig is lurking. Of course he's lurking. And he'll come back. SignatureSimon R. Hughes > >>>In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Of course he's lurking. And he'll come back. I just think that isn't like Irishmen: yer lovely man isn't lurking. I hope to High Heaven I'm wrong, though. I note that, like Brian Goggin before, he hasn't answered my email. I miss him very much. Mike. >> >>>In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I just think that isn't like Irishmen: yer lovely man isn't lurking. I >hope to High Heaven I'm wrong, though. High Heaven, as it will, let you down I'm afraid. > I note that, like Brian Goggin >before, he hasn't answered my email. I miss him very much. I suggest you try again, Mike. He was very busy with family matters over the holidays. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net [...] > >> > Aye! But I think this is useless -- I doubt Padraig is lurking. > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I suggest you try again, Mike. He was very busy with family matters > over the holidays. No need: I've now had his cordial reply. Mike. >>>In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Aye! But I think this is useless -- I doubt Padraig is lurking. Agreed. SignatureRob Bannister >> >In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Aye! But I think this is useless -- I doubt Padraig is lurking. No he is not, but I told him today that there are some who miss him. I suspect that he will not change his mind. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >> >In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Aye! But I think this is useless -- I doubt Padraig is lurking. Correct: he informed me so this morning. I sent him part of this thread yesterday to entice him back, but he wants to remain occupied with other things these days. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net >In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Seconded. AOL. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net > >Packy is as much a diminutive of Patrick as Paddy is. > > Says who? I never heard it in my life, and I've known many Irish people. > Come back Padraig, please. I wasn't familiar with it either, but anyone can search on <packy patrick> and look at the 800+ hits. Such as: Patrick "Packy" Corbett Patrick (Packy) Reilly - Derrygimla, Ballyconneely. Patrick (Packy) Campbell grew up just outside Dublin (Packy) Patrick B. Franklyn Patrick "Packy" Michell McCabe, Patrick E. -- also known as Packy William Patrick (Packy) Farrell The University of Scranton Wall of Fame: Patrick "Packy" Boyle SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> >Packy is as much a diminutive of Patrick as Paddy is. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I wasn't familiar with it either, but anyone can search on <packy >patrick> and look at the 800+ hits. Such as: Thanks, Donna. Unfortunately, I'm not anyone. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England Dr Robin Bignall filted: >>>From: R H Draney dadoctah@earthlink.net >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals came from east Asia. >People from the Indian sub-continent were Indians. "ONCE upon a time, on an uninhabited island on the shores of the Red Sea, there lived a Parsee from whose hat the rays of the sun were reflected in more-than-oriental splendour." It was this sentence that passed through my mind as I re-edited my original reference to ensure that Iranians were included...the word "Parsee" may have been selected only for its exotic flavour [1], but the association is now firmly fixed (as is, for my generation, the voice of Sterling Holloway rading the whole story)....r [1] I'm not rightpondian, but we're talking about Kipling here; I found the search engines more helpful when I spelt the final word "splendour".... ... > >>>From: R H Draney dadoctah@earthlink.net > >>> > >>>Problem with your suggestion is that some people will use it to mean "Arab" > >>>or > >>>"Iranian"...an "Oriental rug" generally isn't one made in Shanghai....r ... > "ONCE upon a time, on an uninhabited island on the shores of the Red Sea, there > lived a Parsee from whose hat the rays of the sun were reflected in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > [1] I'm not rightpondian, but we're talking about Kipling here; I found the > search engines more helpful when I spelt the final word "splendour".... The _Just So Stories_ strike me as sort of a guided tour of the Empire and other exotic places a British gentleman or lady might visit, or maybe they do for the Empire what _Puck of Pook's Hill_ did for a little piece of Sussex. So I suspect that Kipling used a Parsee since he already had Australians, Africans, etc. (at least animals). The Parsee in the story may also conform to stereotypes. SignatureJerry Friedman > "Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my knowledge. > When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals came from east Asia. > People from the Indian sub-continent were Indians. The term "Paki" as an > abusive description of any Indian-looking person came later. The term Wog > (Wily Oriental Gentleman) was often applied to all foreigners, as in the > phrase "The Wogs start at Calais". I'm not totally convinced. "The Mysterious East", as opposed to "The Mysterious Orient" often alluded to harems and magic carpets, at least in the books I read as a boy. SignatureRob Bannister >> "Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my knowledge. >> When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals came from east Asia. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Mysterious Orient" often alluded to harems and magic carpets, at least >in the books I read as a boy. OK, so Araby is east of Hoddesdon. It was east of Nottingham, too, but China is more easter. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>"Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my knowledge. >>>When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals came from east Asia. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > OK, so Araby is east of Hoddesdon. So is Southend. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>"Oriental" has never specifically meant "Arabic" in the UK to my knowledge. >>>>When I was growing up, Arabs were Arabs and Orientals came from east Asia. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >So is Southend. I have been informed by younger friends who are still in the bird-pulling game that there are lots of potential harem members in Sowfend, particularly on the beach in Summer. It's all a mystery to me. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>OK, so Araby is east of Hoddesdon. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > game that there are lots of potential harem members in Sowfend, > particularly on the beach in Summer. It's all a mystery to me. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Essex girls. I've met some fine specimens. Some weren't even wearing harem pants. SignatureRob Bannister > There is absolutely nothing wrong with Essex girls. I've met some fine > specimens. Some weren't even wearing harem pants. Wehey! SignatureSimon R. Hughes >>>>OK, so Araby is east of Hoddesdon. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >There is absolutely nothing wrong with Essex girls. I've met some fine >specimens. Some weren't even wearing harem pants. I have to behave myself these days. Tough, innit. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>>OK, so Araby is east of Hoddesdon. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >There is absolutely nothing wrong with Essex girls. I've met some fine >specimens. Some weren't even wearing harem pants. Speaking as a Southend-residing Egyptian dance teacher, I would like to point out that we Essex girls are very versatile. It takes a great deal of skill to inject the perfumed air of the mysterious east into daily life here. And it's pronounced Saaafend, not Sowfend. SignatureLouisa Essex, England, Europe >>>>>OK, so Araby is east of Hoddesdon. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Speaking as a Southend-residing Egyptian dance teacher, Does that mean that you are a dance teacher from Egypt or that you teach Egyptian dance? I would like to point > out that we Essex girls are very versatile. It takes a great deal of skill to > inject the perfumed air of the mysterious east into daily life here. And it's > pronounced Saaafend, not Sowfend. Not Sarfend, then? My grandparents lived in Westcliff, but that was a bit posh. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> Speaking as a Southend-residing Egyptian dance teacher, > >Does that mean that you are a dance teacher from Egypt or that you teach >Egyptian dance? Hmm . . . no I didn't make that very clear.I teach Egyptian dance. > I would like to point >> out that we Essex girls are very versatile. It takes a great deal of skill [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Not Sarfend, then? My grandparents lived in Westcliff, but that was a >bit posh. No not Sarfend, the initial vowel sound has more of a drifting quality to it. I live in Westcliff and yes, we are a bit posh. I even use sentences with the word "whilst" in them. SignatureLouisa Essex, England, Europe >>>Speaking as a Southend-residing Egyptian dance teacher, >> >>Does that mean that you are a dance teacher from Egypt or that you teach >>Egyptian dance? > > Hmm . . . no I didn't make that very clear.I teach Egyptian dance. I'm intrigued. I have a friend who is an accomplished belly dancer: is it similar? >> I would like to point >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > live in Westcliff and yes, we are a bit posh. I even use sentences with the > word "whilst" in them. All I remember from my many visits are the Beecroft Art Gallery and some exotic street names: Hobleythick Road and Hamlet Court Road. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> Hmm . . . no I didn't make that very clear.I teach Egyptian dance. > >I'm intrigued. I have a friend who is an accomplished belly dancer: is >it similar? Yes, I do bellydancing and Egyptian folk dancing. The moves are very roughly similar, but you wear a lot more clothes for the folk dances :-) >>>Not Sarfend, then? My grandparents lived in Westcliff, but that was a >>>bit posh. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >All I remember from my many visits are the Beecroft Art Gallery and some >exotic street names: Hobleythick Road and Hamlet Court Road. Hobleythick Lane. My son had a picture in the Beecroft Art Gallery when he was 5 years old, in a borough schools exhibition. Are you Jewish? Most Jews in England seem to have relatives in Westcliff :-) SignatureLouisa Essex, England, Europe >> And it's >> pronounced Saaafend, not Sowfend. > >Not Sarfend, then? My grandparents lived in Westcliff, but that was a >bit posh. As a one-time resident of Ilford, mother of a bona-fide Essex girl, and with late parents-in-law who kept a shop in the seaside town in question, I warmly second Louisa's rendition. Sowfend and Sarfend are not indigenous Saaafend pronuciations. bb Wood Avens "Subtract the python and think crushed velvet." spamtrap: remove number to reply [snip] >bb >Wood Avens > >"Subtract the python and think crushed velvet." > >spamtrap: remove number to reply Damn - keep not remembering to change that, with the result that no-one knows the post is from me ... SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove number to reply >> In article <btkveh$e4s$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au>, Robert Bannister >> <robban@it.net.au> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Not Sarfend, then? My grandparents lived in Westcliff, but that was a > bit posh. I'll never forget Westcliff. That was where I accidentally tackled the referee in a rugby match and got away with it because I had borrowed some socks from a Westcliff player. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>>OK, so Araby is east of Hoddesdon. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >out that we Essex girls are very versatile. It takes a great deal of skill to >inject the perfumed air of the mysterious east into daily life here. I know. The road system around Harlow, which is to the east of me at this very moment, used to be a complete mystery, and I found that a compass was a useful thing to carry in the car. I've not yet encountered the perfumed air, for the fishmonger is never there when I visit the market. >And it's >pronounced Saaafend, not Sowfend. By the locals, yes. The exact pronunciation depends on which part of London the speaker comes from. A friend who came to live in Hoddesdon, Herts, as a child 40-odd years ago, says Sowfend, more or less, but his very friendly friend is a rather gorgeous Essex girl, who corrects his pronunciation, which often leads to such responses as "Listen, gal, I yewster go to Sowfend on me bike when you was little..." etc. I did my growing up, if that's an apt phrase in my case, in the Midlands, and call it Southend, not knowing any better. BTW, my spell checker wants to change Harlow to harlot. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>There is absolutely nothing wrong with Essex girls. I've met some fine >>specimens. Some weren't even wearing harem pants. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > inject the perfumed air of the mysterious east into daily life here. And it's > pronounced Saaafend, not Sowfend. Totally agree with both your points. SignatureRob Bannister In alt.usage.english, Rushtown wrote: >I understand the word "Oriental" to mean East Asians, but not Indonesians, and >maybe not Filipinos. It refers to people of the Mongoloid race. It did until recently, perhaps, but 'twas not always so. >None of the words which are meant to replace this now non-PC word do the trick. >"Asian" can mean people from India. East Asians can mean Indonesians. >"Mongoloid" is even more non-PC than "Oriental". And BTW "Oriental" isn't in >the least bit demeaning or insulting---it's become non-PC only because it's >been around for so long. I agree that none of the replacement words quite 'covers all the bases', as you Americans say. At one time, 'oriental' was applied to everyone east of Minsk or thereabouts and west of, say, Vancouver, but including North Africa as far south as somewhere as yet undiscovered by native anglophones in those days - Juba, perhaps. Russians, for example, were frequently described as oriental (by Russians as well as by snooty occidentals) and I think native Hawaiians were too. What we need is a non-Eurocentric word that covers all of that ground (AmE: 'all those bases'). I suggest 'vanjubminsky'. Thus John Buchan might have written: 'He had the low brow and shifty eyes of a vanjubminsky and Badger instinctively stepped backwards towards the still-open door and dropped a hand towards his trousers. But it was too late. He was undone.' SignatureMickwick > In alt.usage.english, Rushtown wrote: > > >I understand the word "Oriental" to mean East Asians, but not Indonesians, and > >maybe not Filipinos. It refers to people of the Mongoloid race. [...] [...snipped almost at random...] > I agree that none of the replacement words quite 'covers all the bases', > as you Americans say. At one time, 'oriental' was applied to everyone > east of Minsk or thereabouts and west of, say, Vancouver, but including > North Africa as far south as somewhere as yet undiscovered by native > anglophones in those days [...] Having been born in Melbourne around the time those westerners the Japanese were slipping their midget submarines into Sydney Harbour, I claim to be the most oriental of AUE regulars with the possible exception of Peter Moylan. But why are Indonesians and Filipinos to be excluded? In Imperial times, the only Orientals who mattered much in British English were Indians: the broader American view is responsible for the term's attachment to the "Mongoloid" race, but even if you don't accept the silliness of that term you'll have to admit most of its members were, from that point of view, Occidentals. With a few Boreals. And a lot of Australs. And next doors. A case of American English naturally enough using the Old Continent as a starting-point and falling flat on its face. So "Oriental" as a way of describing people is slightly less useful than "Manchester United supporters". (Personally, I'd rather be oriental.) Mike. > What we need is a non-Eurocentric word that covers all of that ground > (AmE: 'all those bases'). I suggest 'vanjubminsky'. We don't say "cover all those bases" here in America. The expression is "have got all your bases covered". > > What we need is a non-Eurocentric word that covers all of that ground > > (AmE: 'all those bases'). I suggest 'vanjubminsky'. > > We don't say "cover all those bases" here in America. The expression is > "have got all your bases covered". Shouldn't it be: "All your base are belong to us". :-) [Mick's original post has disappeared] "Mickwick" wrote: > What we need is a non-Eurocentric word that covers all of that > ground (AmE: 'all those bases'). I suggest 'vanjubminsky'. Nah. Too Jewish. SignatureReinhold (Rey) Aman --------------------------------------- "Like most here, I rarely read Rey. ... I recommend that you avoid Rey's posts. They're not worth it." -- John Dean, 21 November 2003 In alt.usage.english, Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote: >"Mickwick" wrote: >> What we need is a non-Eurocentric word that covers all of that >> ground (AmE: 'all those bases'). I suggest 'vanjubminsky'. > >Nah. Too Jewish. But I'm sure I've read old novels (possibly by the statesman, bigot and arch-phrenologist, Baron Tweedsmuir) in which British Jews with German or Slavic names (and thus probably European rather than Asian) are ascribed supposedly Oriental characteristics of habit and mind (cunning, dishonesty, inscrutable otherness), and I'm almost as sure that not only have their characteristics been termed Oriental but the Jewish villains have themselves been termed Orientals. If we're looking for a word that'll capture all of the meanings 'Oriental' had back in its heyday, a certain Jewishness wouldn't be out of place. SignatureMickwick > > > What we need is a non-Eurocentric word that covers all of that ground > > > (AmE: 'all those bases'). I suggest 'vanjubminsky'. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Shouldn't it be: "All your base are belong to us". :-) I like that, masa. As for andrew's statement, I find "have got" unidiomatic, verging on BrE. I say "have all your bases covered." I use "have gotten" a headache, however, and a car, an idea, etc. If that gets too repetitive, I shorten the expression to "I got", since both mean "to acquire, to obtain, to become. I think we had a thread about this in the not very distant past, and I fall into the "GI" group. ;-(.... rushtown@aol.com (Rushtown) wrote on 04 Jan 2004: > I understand the word "Oriental" to mean East Asians, but not > Indonesians, and maybe not Filipinos. It refers to people of the > Mongoloid race. None of the words which are meant to replace this > now non-PC word do the trick. "Asian" can mean people from India. > East Asians can mean Indonesians. From over here in Far East Asia, Indonesia looks a lot like South or Southeast Asia. > "Mongoloid" is even more non-PC than "Oriental". And BTW > "Oriental" isn't in the least bit demeaning or insulting > ---it's become non-PC only because it's been around > for so long. If you lived where I live, you would be correct, but unfortunately for you, you live in a country where the people referred to as "Oriental" consider the word demeaning and insulting and fit to be used only with the nouns "carpet" and "rug". Since the Middle Ages, though, the word has meant [quote -- OED2CDv3] 3. spec. Belonging to, found in, or characteristic of, the countries or regions lying to the east of the Mediterranean or of the ancient Roman empire; belonging to south-western Asia, or Asiatic countries generally; also, belonging to the east of Europe, or of Christendom (as the Oriental Empire, or Church); Eastern. c1477 Caxton Jason 53 In the parties orientall is an ile. [/quote] [quote --- AHD4] Usage Note: Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Oriental—meaning "eastern"—is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable. <The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.> [/quote] Unless you are an Asian American telling us specifically that it's okay for us to call *you* an Oriental, I suggest that you are talking to the wrong people (you should be making this claim in soc.culture.asian-american) and that your beliefs about the denotations and connotations of the word are seriously misguided. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. |
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