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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Spinning
To spin I spin we spin you spin you spin he spins she spins they spin it spins But, is the past tense spun or span? "Jenny span the wool at the spinning wheel", or "Jenny spun the wool at t'mill"? I know what the dictionary says; what is your preference?  SignatureSimon R. Hughes > To spin > I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I know what the dictionary says; what is your preference? Spun. Just like the good book says. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > To spin > I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I know what the dictionary says; what is your preference? When Adam delved and Eve span Who was then the gentleman? SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com > > To spin > > I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > When Adam delved and Eve span > Who was then the gentleman? Well, that demands the question of how "gentleman" should be pronounced. > > > But, is the past tense spun or span? > > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Well, that demands the question of how "gentleman" should be pronounced. Excellent point. "Spun" rhymes with "gentleman" very well. Look at how the Brits say "shone" and "ate". Maybe they don't pronounce "span" as "span", either. Or didn't. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux trio@euronet.nl spake thus: > > > > But, is the past tense spun or span? > > > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the Brits say "shone" and "ate". Maybe they don't pronounce "span" as > "span", either. Or didn't. The rhyming of poetry has little to do with everyday speech. In the bit of doggerel above, "gentleman" comes out as "gentle man", which is not they way most UK English speakers would render it in flowing speech. It's not only forced into this by the rhyme but also by the assumed stress pattern, which leaves "man" stranded after a string syllable: *who* was *then* the *gentle* man? SignatureDavid ===== bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com spake thus: > trio@euronet.nl spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > *who* was *then* the *gentle* man? For those who are paying attention, "string syllable" is not an erudite term for analysing stress patterns in poetry, but a typo for "strong syllable". If you're not paying attention, please ignore this ... er ... SignatureDavid ===== >>>> But, is the past tense spun or span? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the Brits say "shone" and "ate". Maybe they don't pronounce "span" as > "span", either. Or didn't. Er, how *do* we pronounce 'shone' and 'ate'? I'm aware some say 'ett' for 'ate' but most rhyme it with 'eight', which doesn't seem unusual. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply >>Excellent point. "Spun" rhymes with "gentleman" very well. Look at how >>the Brits say "shone" and "ate". Maybe they don't pronounce "span" as >>"span", either. Or didn't. > > Er, how *do* we pronounce 'shone' and 'ate'? I'm aware some say 'ett' for > 'ate' but most rhyme it with 'eight', which doesn't seem unusual. I think she was referring to the quaint AmE "shown" pronunciation. We, of course, rhyme it with "gone". SignatureRob Bannister Donna wrote: >"Spun" rhymes with "gentleman" very well. Look at how >the Brits say "shone" and "ate". Maybe they don't >pronounce "span" as "span", either. Or didn't. The Great Vowel Shift hadn't happened yet, so it all must have been quite different: we're talking fourteenth century here! The OED gives the passage as: When Adam dalfe and Eue spane . . Whare was than the pride of man? I learned it with "dolve" & "gentle man"; but howsoever the lines were internally worded, the first vowel of "spane" should have matched that of "man." Presumably the meter wants "Eue" to be two syllables. > To spin > I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > But, is the past tense spun or span? I've posted here before about a similar word, bring: is it bring, brang, brung? or bring, brought, brought? I've actually heard brang around here, but never brung. > > To spin > > I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > But, is the past tense spun or span? I noticed this a while back. A news report went something like "The car spun out of control" and it just sounded wrong. I grew up with "span" and it still sounds much more natural/correct to me, "spun" being reserved for the past perfect. > I've posted here before about a similar word, bring: is it bring, brang, > brung? or bring, brought, brought? I've actually heard brang around here, > but never brung. Oh, "brung" is common enough in dialect and uneducated speech. Adrian Signatureb. England 1966; SE Cheshire -1986; Birmingham to date > To spin > I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > But, is the past tense spun or span? "spun," even though I think "span" has the longer history. SignatureMartin Ambuhl > To spin > I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I know what the dictionary says; what is your preference? My preference is 'spinned'. See: http://tinyurl.com/275ek http://tinyurl.com/3hjfq SignatureChristopher (Change 3032 to 3232 to reply by private e-mail) > My preference is 'spinned'. See: > > http://tinyurl.com/275ek > http://tinyurl.com/3hjfq Wow, those are surely two fine examples of English literature. What worthy authorities on which to base a question of English usage. > > My preference is 'spinned'. See: > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Wow, those are surely two fine examples of English literature. What worthy > authorities on which to base a question of English usage. Well, I didn't actually *say* they were "fine examples of English literature", did I? Besides, your second sentence is illogical; you really should have written: "... on which to base *an answer to* a question ....", shouldn't you? Even the great Franke ('CyberCypher') has asked what's wrong with 'spinned', so perhaps I wasn't being entirely facetious when I originally stated it as my preference. SignatureChristopher (Change 3032 to 3232 to reply by private e-mail) "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> wrote on 04 Jan 2004: > To spin > I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I know what the dictionary says; what is your preference? "spun" is my preference, because "span" is another word. But this is a good point to introduce the idea of regularizing this kind of verb. In medical parlance, for example, the verb "to bind" has been regularized when used to talk about proteins that bind to DNA. Sentences now say things like "Thus the synchrotron external photoactivation of stable platinum (PAT-Plat) binded to DNA through the chemotherapy alkylating-like molecule cis-platinum is proposed as an experimental chemo-auger radiotherapy modality." "Ru(II) polypyridyl complexes show strong luminescing capabilities when binded to DNA due to an intercalation." "In the binding to DNA, it was shown by DNA unwinding assay that ABCD-ring analog binded to DNA tightly by intercalation into DNA bases." and "Without neuraminidase, PNA binded to collecting ducts but not to PT or DT." I haven't seen the past participle used in these papers, but I imagine it also "binded". What is wrong with "spinned"? Here it is in litcrit for political "spin", another specialized usage: "More Spinned Against Than Spinning?: Representations of political lobbyists in fiction", by Conor McGrath, School of Communication, University of Ulster, Newtownabbey, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland And I'll spare you the other 9869 hits Google provided. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > In medical parlance, for example, the verb "to bind" has been > regularized when used to talk about proteins that bind to DNA. But why? What was wrong with "bound"? Cheers, Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org tony@softins.clara.co.uk (Tony Mountifield) wrote on 05 Jan 2004: >> In medical parlance, for example, the verb "to bind" has been >> regularized when used to talk about proteins that bind to DNA. > > But why? What was wrong with "bound"? I don't know why. According to AHD4, chemistry uses bind-bound-bound. Maybe biochemists just want to be different. I didn't have any problem accepting bind-binded-binded as a technical variant. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > To spin > I spin we spin > you spin you spin > he spins > she spins they spin > it spins I thought this was going to be a post on the origin of 'spinning' to mean 'riding a stationary bicycle', which I have only heard on a cruise ship commercial. > I thought this was going to be a post on the origin of 'spinning' > to mean 'riding a stationary bicycle', which I have only heard on > a cruise ship commercial. My impression is that it's more than just riding a stationary bike; it sounds like there's music involved, and maybe encouragement from an instructor/leader/slavedriver. But I don't know much about it, preferring to do my cycling outdoors. It certainly seems to be trendy. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >> I thought this was going to be a post on the origin of 'spinning' >> to mean 'riding a stationary bicycle', which I have only heard on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >instructor/leader/slavedriver. But I don't know much about it, >preferring to do my cycling outdoors. It certainly seems to be trendy. I first came across that meaning in a Toyota car comercial, in which the proud new owner thinks he ought to make his own body's shape more deserving of that of his Toyota Tazz. Steve Hayes hayesmstw@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm In article <pan.2004.01.04.02.28.15.891435@yahoo.no>, "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> posted: > To spin > I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I know what the dictionary says; what is your preference? Two examples of my preference: He spun the yarn. The White House applied a spin to the story. *---===== English is Munglish =====---* Jai Maharaj http://www.mantra.com/jai Om Shanti > In article <pan.2004.01.04.02.28.15.891435@yahoo.no>, > "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> posted: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > http://www.mantra.com/jai > Om Shanti "Span" hasn't been used in years, maybe centuries. The most recent quotation I've seen dates from 14th century? 13th? "When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?" Cece In our last episode, <1ca2e706.0401051307.3aa05f6e@posting.google.com>, the lovely and talented Cece broadcast on alt.usage.english: > "Span" hasn't been used in years, maybe centuries. The most recent > quotation I've seen dates from 14th century? 13th? "When Adam delved > and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?" Which turns out not to meaning anything so interesting as it might seem at first. SignatureLars Eighner -finger for geek code- eighner@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ I hold that the parentheses are by far the most important parts of a non-business letter. --D. H. Lawrence > In our last episode, > <1ca2e706.0401051307.3aa05f6e@posting.google.com>, the lovely and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Which turns out not to meaning anything so interesting as it might > seem at first. What did you first think it meant? And what do you now see as the meaning? -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply >But, is the past tense spun or span? > >"Jenny span the wool at the spinning wheel", or "Jenny spun the wool at t'mill"? > >I know what the dictionary says; what is your preference? When Adam delved and Eve spun Who was then the gentlemun? Steve Hayes hayesmstw@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm > To spin > I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I know what the dictionary says; what is your preference? I don't know any American who would say "span" for the past tense of "spin." I never heard that little verse about Adam and Eve until I read this newsgroup; I see it relates to the Peasants' Revolt of 13-something, not a hot topic in World History classes. You ask for personal use, not dictionaries, but I did look to see whether the uniform preference in the US is reflected in or governed by the old Webster; yes, the 1828 edition says this exactly: SPIN, v.t. pret. and pp. spun. Span is not used. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > You ask for personal use, not dictionaries, but I did look to see > whether the uniform preference in the US is reflected in or governed by > the old Webster; yes, the 1828 edition says this exactly: > > SPIN, v.t. pret. and pp. spun. Span is not used. Am I right that it would've been more honest if they'd written: "Span is not to be used"? Adrian > > You ask for personal use, not dictionaries, but I did look to see > > whether the uniform preference in the US is reflected in or governed by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Am I right that it would've been more honest if they'd written: "Span is not > to be used"? You could have several things in mind, I'm not sure which. Educators in the 19th century did adhere pretty much to Noah Webster's dictionary, I believe, but not because he said to. The other point is that American English had been around for about two hundred years by then, so it is perfectly plausible that ol' Noah was simply describing what was the established custom there, that "span" was not used (same way that it isn't now). I would take him at his word. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux An American living in the Netherlands > > > You ask for personal use, not dictionaries, but I did look to see > > > whether the uniform preference in the US is reflected in or governed by [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > simply describing what was the established custom there, that "span" was > not used (same way that it isn't now). I would take him at his word. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt (and say that he wasn't being prescriptive) but it does seem hard to believe that "span" had completely died out. Are there other entries which state "x is not used"? Adrian > > > > You ask for personal use, not dictionaries, but I did look to see > > > > whether the uniform preference in the US is reflected in or governed [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > prescriptive) but it does seem hard to believe that "span" had completely > died out. Are there other entries which state "x is not used"? That's a bit tricky. The website version of the 1828 Webster will search for single words used within definitions, but not phrases. You can try for yourself at: http://www.christiantech.com/ I found such notes as ABO'RD, v.t. To accost. [Not in use.] ACCIDENT'ALNESS, n. The quality of being casual. [Little used.] I'm not sure why you are surprised, except maybe that spun/span is not a famous of a US/UK difference as many others are. I never even saw "span" until quite recently, and I grew up reading British books. Come to think of it, do you really use it for all uses of "spin"? The car span on the ice? I can't imagine seeing that. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > I'm not sure why you are surprised, except maybe that spun/span is not a > famous of a US/UK difference as many others are. I never even saw "span" > until quite recently, and I grew up reading British books. > > Come to think of it, do you really use it for all uses of "spin"? The > car span on the ice? I can't imagine seeing that. Interestingly, I can imagine saying that, but I might have trouble saying that I "span some yarn". That may be because I learned to spin in America. I looked in Chambers 1973 (comforted by the fact that Laura uses the same edition), and it has "spun" as archaic for the past tense. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com "Frances Kemmish" <fkemmish@optonline.net> wrote... > > I'm not sure why you are surprised, except maybe that spun/span is > > not a famous of a US/UK difference as many others are. I never even [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I looked in Chambers 1973 (comforted by the fact that Laura uses the > same edition), and it has "spun" as archaic for the past tense. I looked in NSOED, which gives first "spun" followed by "span", neither marked as archaic, for the past tense of "spin". In the list of references "spun" appears several times, but "span" not at all. Matti > > I'm not sure why you are surprised, except maybe that spun/span is not a > > famous of a US/UK difference as many others are. I never even saw "span" > > until quite recently, and I grew up reading British books. > > Come to think of it, do you really use it for all uses of "spin"? The > > car span on the ice? I can't imagine seeing that. > Interestingly, I can imagine saying that, but I might have trouble > saying that I "span some yarn". That may be because I learned to spin in > America. > I looked in Chambers 1973 (comforted by the fact that Laura uses the > same edition), and it has "spun" as archaic for the past tense. I wonder if you meant to type " [...] it has 'span' as archaic for the past tense". _Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Dictionary_ (CD-ROM) has it that way ("span" as an archaic past tense of "spin"). > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I wonder if you meant to type " [...] it has 'span' as > archaic for the past tense". No, I didn't. > _Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Dictionary_ (CD-ROM) has it > that way ("span" as an archaic past tense of "spin"). It's a mystery. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com [ . . . ] > >>I looked in Chambers 1973 (comforted by the fact that Laura uses the > >>same edition), and it has "spun" as archaic for the past tense. > > I wonder if you meant to type " [...] it has 'span' as > > archaic for the past tense". > No, I didn't. Sorry. > > _Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Dictionary_ (CD-ROM) has it > > that way ("span" as an archaic past tense of "spin"). > It's a mystery. I think it has an easy answer, though: The 1973 Chambers people erred. Sometime in the next twenty years they got it straightened out, because the 1993 _Chambers Dictionary_ says, s.v. "spin" _pr p_ spinning; _pa t_ spun, _archaic_ span; _pa p_ spun I doubt that the relative archaicness of "spun" and "span" changed that much in a mere twenty years. > Come to think of it, do you really use it for all uses of "spin"? The > car span on the ice? I can't imagine seeing that. Well, I would, but I can't speak for everyone. I certainly can't think where I could ever say 'spinned', but I don't always listen to myself. "The car spinned off the track" doesn't actually sound all that bad, but I'd probably say "went spinning". SignatureRob Bannister >>You ask for personal use, not dictionaries, but I did look to see >>whether the uniform preference in the US is reflected in or governed by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Am I right that it would've been more honest if they'd written: "Span is not > to be used"? Or "USed". SignatureRob Bannister > To spin > I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I know what the dictionary says; what is your preference? Span. SignatureRob Bannister Also sprach Robert Bannister: >> To spin >> I spin we spin [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> > Span. I'm beginning to see this as a pondian thing: "spun" to the left; "span" to the right. It's a shame; I sent "span" to an American publication, and then thought twice later. SignatureSimon R. Hughes "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> wrote... > Also sprach Robert Bannister: > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > It's a shame; I sent "span" to an American publication, and then > thought twice later. Just to balance things up a bit: I've (just about) always seen and used "spun" in Britain. I noted here a few months ago that Rowling uses "span" in _Harry Potter & the Order of the Phoenix_ and assumed that it was a nod to American readers. Matti > "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> wrote... > > Also sprach Robert Bannister: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > a few months ago that Rowling uses "span" in _Harry Potter & the Order > of the Phoenix_ and assumed that it was a nod to American readers. That seems unlikely to me. As in the case with many other novels, the language of the Harry Potter books is changed somewhat for the American editions, presumably by someone other than the author. So there would be no point in Rowling changing her vocabulary as "a nod to American readers." SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote in message > > Just to balance things up a bit: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > editions, presumably by someone other than the author. So there would be no > point in Rowling changing her vocabulary as "a nod to American readers." Does anyone know for sure if the last book (fifth) was Americanized at all? I never heard any particular mention of it and thought maybe that practice of dual English editions had stopped altogether. I recall we had evidence here that there were fewer changes each time. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > Does anyone know for sure if the last book (fifth) was Americanized at > all? I never heard any particular mention of it and thought maybe that > practice of dual English editions had stopped altogether. I recall we > had evidence here that there were fewer changes each time. Differences can be found at http://www.hp-lexicon.org/differences-op.html although the table on the page makes it relatively hard to read. Looking at the differences, I'd say that most of them look more like "editorial preference" changes rather than translations, and I'm a bit surprised that they would have bothered, unless Rowling saw it as an opportunity to do some minor revision, doing things like changing tense from past to past perfect. Some that look to be translations: UK US punchball punching bag skirting board baseboard whilst while well shot of him well shut of him come orf come off skip dumpster judgement judgment he's mad he's a madman timetables schedules peckers up spirits up revising reviewing you've got you've gotten 30th August August 30th had got had gotten torches lamps fringe bangs satsuma walnut (?!) pot plant potted plant having got having gotten revision review Careers Advice Career Advice revision timetables study schedule span himself around spun himself around SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The Society for the Preservation of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Tithesis commends your ebriated and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |scrutable use of delible and |defatigable, which are gainly, sipid kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |and couth. We are gruntled and (650)857-7572 |consolate that you have the ertia and |eptitude to choose such putably http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |pensible tithesis, which we parage. >>Does anyone know for sure if the last book (fifth) was Americanized at >>all? I never heard any particular mention of it and thought maybe that [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > fringe bangs > satsuma walnut (?!) No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and b) walnut is BrE - they are native to the British Isles. > pot plant potted plant > having got having gotten > revision review > Careers Advice Career Advice > revision timetables study schedule > span himself around spun himself around I NEVER heard a Brit say "span". Bob Martin > > fringe bangs satsuma > > walnut (?!) > > No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and > b) walnut is BrE - they are native to the British Isles. Hence the interrobang. I don't question changing the word, as I was in my thirties before I encountered the word "satsuma", so I'd hazard that it wouldn't have any meaning to most Americans (kids or otherwise). But I would have expected something like "tangerine". Unless the context was something like "about the size of a satsuma", where the kind of fruit doesn't really matter. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |...as a mobile phone is analogous 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to a Q-Tip -- yeah, it's something Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you stick in your ear, but there |all resemblance ends. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Ross Howard (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Some that look to be translations: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> whilst while >> well shot of him well shut of him Eh?...if this is the expression I think it is, I thought it was "well shed of him"....r >>> Some that look to be translations: >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Eh?...if this is the expression I think it is, I thought it was "well > shed of him"....r I have to confess that I have no idea what any of those might mean. That last one makes some sense, but is it the one meant? SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>>>Some that look to be translations: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I have to confess that I have no idea what any of those might mean. That > last one makes some sense, but is it the one meant? Definition shot (FREE) [Show phonetics] adjective UK INFORMAL get/be shot of sth to get rid of or free of something, or to leave something: I can't wait to get shot of this office for a week. I suspect he left home to get shot of that awful mother of his. (from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary) SignatureRob Bannister >>>> Some that look to be translations: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I have to confess that I have no idea what any of those might mean. That >last one makes some sense, but is it the one meant? "Well shot of him" means, in BrE, glad that he's taken himself a long way away and out of sight. "Well rid of him" has a similar meaning. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England Also sprach R H Draney: >>> Some that look to be translations: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Eh?...if this is the expression I think it is, I thought it was "well shed > of him"....r Your all beeting about the bush; the original, imbowdlericed vertion is "well sh.t of him". It dont' make no sence, of cource; the meanings of idiums aint evidant from analyciss of its compricing words. SignatureSimon R. Hughes > >> Some that look to be translations: > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Eh?...if this is the expression I think it is, I thought it was "well shed of > him"....r My thought, as well, though I believe I have never seen "well shed" in print. Wonder if it is related to the "red up" that housewives used to do to the house. Pat Durkin filted: >> >> well shot of him well shut of him >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >My thought, as well, though I believe I have never seen "well shed" in >print. <channeling Donna> "well shot of him" - 105 Google hits "well shut of him" - 14 "well shed of him" - 5 "well shod of him" - 1 "well shy of him" - bupkis Hmmm...that's disappointing...and changing the pronoun just reduces all the counts proportionately...hey, I just thought of something: "well rid of him" - 1040 ....r > >> Some that look to be translations: > >> well shot of him well shut of him > > Eh?...if this is the expression I think it is, I thought it was "well shed of > him"....r "Well shed of" sounds like the influence of folk etymology. "Well shot of" is the only one of the three that I know. Chambers (1993) gives, under "shot (1) adj": rid (with /of/; /colloq/). Is there any evidence of the history of this usage? Adrian Signatureb. England 1966; SE Cheshire -1986; Birmingham to date > No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and OMG! All this time, I thought they were plums. SignatureRob Bannister > > No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and > > OMG! All this time, I thought they were plums. They are small, sweet, easily peeled, seedless oranges, similar to but not as good as clementines. They are grown in orchards south of New Orleans, the New Orleanians are inordinately proud of them, and my cousin sends us a box of them every Christmas. SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much. >>>No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Orleanians are inordinately proud of them, and my cousin sends us a box of > them every Christmas. So what are those dark red Japanese plums called? SignatureRob Bannister > >>>No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and > >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > So what are those dark red Japanese plums called? Beats the hell out of me; I've never heard of them. The plums and oranges could very well have the same name: Satsuma could be the name of a district, or of a hybridizer. SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much. > > >>>No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and > > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > could very well have the same name: Satsuma could be the name of a district, > or of a hybridizer. I think that's right, as there is also an extremely delicate porcelain called "Satsuma ware". Mike. >> Beats the hell out of me; I've never heard of them. The plums and oranges >> could very well have the same name: Satsuma could be the name of a district, >> or of a hybridizer. > >I think that's right, as there is also an extremely delicate porcelain >called "Satsuma ware". Satsuma (which was in southern Kyushu) was one of the fiefs of southern Japan which, along with Choshu and Tosa, took the leading part in the anti-foreign campaign of the 1860s. Its chief port, Kagoshima, was bombarbed by British warships in in 1863. It was abolished, along with all the other fiefs, when the system of prefectures was introduced in 1871, so does not appear on most modern maps. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". > >>>No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and > >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > So what are those dark red Japanese plums called? Ume. Dried or pickled, they are called umeboshi, and the plum wine is umeshu. -skipka >> > No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Orleanians are inordinately proud of them, and my cousin sends us a box of >them every Christmas. And in my fridge (frig, fridg) is a tin of Satsuma Plum Jam. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote on 07 Jan 2004: >>> > No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And in my fridge (frig, fridg) is a tin of Satsuma Plum Jam. We've already been through this one --- a few months back. Japanese do not think of plums when they think of "satsuma", but Westerners do. Anyway, there is material on the Web that supports both PsOV: Well, it is "points of view" and not *"point of views", isn't it? SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. [...] > We've already been through this one --- a few months back. Japanese do > not think of plums when they think of "satsuma", but Westerners do. [...] Say "satsuma" to a Brit, and he'll think of the orange. But clementines are nicer. Mike. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Say "satsuma" to a Brit, and he'll think of the orange. But clementines are nicer. When shod in herring boxes. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And in my fridge (frig, fridg) is a tin of Satsuma Plum Jam. Thanks, Steve. I thought I was going mad. SignatureRob Bannister > >>>>No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and > >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > Thanks, Steve. I thought I was going mad. From http://www.chatlink.com/~stinformer/GREENER/page117.html There are two types of plums: European and Japanese. ,,, The Japanese plums were introduced to the United States by plant hybridizer Luther Burbank. While browsing through a book, Burbank read the exploits of an American sailor who described a plum he had eaten while visiting the province of Satsuma that had blood red flesh with exceptional taste and sweetness. In 1885 Burbank received 12 plum seedlings from Japan, and a new era was about to begin. In all, Burbank developed more than 100 varieties of improved prunes and plums, and some, nearly a century later remain popular, they include: the Burbank, Santa Rosa, Satsuma, Red Ace, Shiro and Wickson. There must be some other example of the same geographic name being used to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think of any at the moment. Closest I can come is Yorkshire pudding and Yorkshire terrier. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>>>>>No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > the moment. Closest I can come is Yorkshire pudding and Yorkshire > terrier. Please, Donna, tell me you don't eat dogs... Satsuma is also the name of a kind of Japanese pottery. I see that OED and NSOED both mention this, as well as the oranges but not the plums. I had never heard of the plums until reading this thread. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > <snipped -- info on Satsuma plums, oranges> > > There must be some other example of the same geographic name being used > to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think of any at > the moment. Closest I can come is Yorkshire pudding and Yorkshire > terrier. Natal oranges, Natal plums. Then there is this curious, quasi-geographical example: Kaffir corn (South African variety of Indian millet) Kaffir bread (South African cycad; the farinaceous pith of the fruit used as food) Kaffir limes (citrus from Southeast Asia) -skipka > There must be some other example of the same geographic name being used > to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think of any at > the moment. Closest I can come is Yorkshire pudding and Yorkshire > terrier. I've read references to "Boston baked beans" and "Boston brown bread." I just call 'em baked beans and brown bread, though, and I suspect most people who aren't writing cookbooks do the same. Manhattans (the drinks) and Manhattan clam chowder? SignatureSML ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu <http://pirate-women.com> I wrote: > > There must be some other example of the same geographic name being used > > to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think of any at [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Manhattans (the drinks) and Manhattan clam chowder? Shoot, I didn't mean to send that yet. I'm trying to think of foods that are _just_ a geographical name when commonly used. Danishes Berliners (although not in English) Manhattans (the drinks) Turkey (oh, I slay myself) Cheddar (there must be more cheeses) Champagne What else? SignatureSML ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu <http://pirate-women.com> > I wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > What else? Frankfurter Hamburger m. >> I wrote: >>>> There must be some other example of the same geographic name being >>>> used to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Frankfurter > Hamburger Wiener SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > Shoot, I didn't mean to send that yet. I'm trying to think of foods that > are _just_ a geographical name when commonly used. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Manhattans (the drinks) > Turkey (oh, I slay myself) I don't follow the parenthetical. The bird was indeed named after the country: Etymology: _Turkey_, country in western Asia and southeastern Europe; from confusion with the guinea fowl, supposed to be imported from Turkish territory > Cheddar (there must be more cheeses) Nearly all of them, I'd think. Gouda, Edam, Swiss, ... > Champagne And most other varietal wines. > What else? We had a thread on this ("Bologna/Boloney") back in February, 2001. Summarizing in 2002, I wrote ] Among the ones we found ] ] Bologna, wiener, frankfurter, polish, hamburger, danish, turkey, ] scotch ] ] Manhattan, Berliner [questioned as to "English" status], Java ] ] daiquiri (Cuba) ] ] swede ] ] walnut ("Welsh nut", although it was actually from the same ] "Wealh", "foreign", that gave rise to "Wales".) ] ] mocha (Yemen) ] ] casaba (Kasaba, Turkey; now Turgutlu) ] ] brazil (the nut, sometimes just listed as "brazils") ] ] "all sorts of wines and cheeses" ] ] cincinnati ("a very spicy fat speckled cold cut") ] ] currant ("Middle English _raison of Coraunte_, literally, raisin ] of Corinth") ] ] another that just occurred to me is "habanero" or "habañero" (Havana, ] Cuba) to which RH Draney added ] I think (taking the "wines and cheeses" as a model) you could ] include *most* peppers: jalisco, jalapeño, tabasco, cayenne, sandia SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It's gotten to the point where the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |only place you can get work done is Palo Alto, CA 94304 |at home, because no one bugs you, |and the best place to entertain kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |yourself is at work, because the (650)857-7572 |Internet connections are faster. | Scott Adams http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ << [Sara Lorimer] Shoot, I didn't mean to send that yet. I'm trying to think of foods that are _just_ a geographical name when commonly used. [end quote] >> [Then Evan Kirshenbaum presented a summary from 2002] We can add Mineral Waters to the "All Sorts of" heading and Teas to the "several of these" heading. Summarizing: Most Wines Cheeses Peppers (jalisco, jalapeño, tabasco, cayenne, sandia, habanero,...) All Sorts of Mineral Waters Several Beers Pilsner Other Alcohol scotch, daiquiri (Cuba), Manhattan, New York, Champagne Coffees Java, mocha (Yemen) Teas Darjeeling Nuts walnut ("Welsh nut", although it was actually from the same "Wealh", "foreign", that gave rise to "Wales".) brazil (the nut, sometimes just listed as "brazils") Meats Bologna, wiener, frankfurter, polish, hamburger cincinnati ("a very spicy fat speckled cold cut") Pastries danish, Berliner (debatable) Pithiviers (Loire valley) turkey swede casaba (Kasaba, Turkey; now Turgutlu) currant ("Middle English _raison of Coraunte_, literally, raisin of Corinth") Satsuma (plum, Japan) Satsuma (orange, Japan) Vidalias (onion) macedoine (salad, dessert) New York (flavor of ice cream) kiwi (does this count?) -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer filted: ><< [Sara Lorimer] >Shoot, I didn't mean to send that yet. I'm trying to think of foods that >are _just_ a geographical name when commonly used. >[end quote] >> > >kiwi (does this count?) It did when it was a Chinese gooseberry....r > > Shoot, I didn't mean to send that yet. I'm trying to think of foods that > > are _just_ a geographical name when commonly used. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Europe; from confusion with the guinea fowl, supposed > to be imported from Turkish territory here is more detail from previous posts: ================================================================== ================================================================== Newsgroups: sci.lang From: Yusuf B Gursey <ybg@shell01.TheWorld.com> Subject: Re: Gunes Dil Kurami Hakkinda Birkac Soz - 3 (The Sun Language Theory) Message-ID: <H8tCr4.9q5@world.std.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:37:52 GMT References: <82171e56.0301121742.42432bc3@posting.google.com> <3E23CAD8.131B@alphalink.com.au> <9cc8f152.0301131355.69d96ede@posting.google.com> <3E2454B6.5430@alphalink.com.au> <9cc8f152.0301132013.4a92dfc3@posting.google.com> mb <azythos@mail.com> wrote: : Reality beats fiction anytime: It's the other way around. A lot of : money was spent on a campaign to convince everybody to stop using the : name "Turkey" and say "Türkiye" instead, fronted/umlaut U and all. The : association of the nation with that useful bird was felt as being : undignified (even though they call it "Indian" in their own language). oh, yes, and arabic has "Greek" (ru:miyy, or rather Byzantine / Anatolian) cock, as well as the now rarer Indian Cock i.e. di:k ru:miyy ("Greek"), di:k hindiyy ("Indian"). IMHO in light of the historian's claim the second would be older, the first a calque of "turkey". here is the sci.lang thread: =============== Message 8 in thread From: Yusuf B Gursey (ybg@world.std.com) Subject: Re: dinde Newsgroups: sci.lang Date: 2001-06-06 10:11:24 PST this is from soc.culture.turkish : From: trknwsl-admin@nwu.edu Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish Subject: Happy Meleagris Gullapavo Day Date: 25 Nov 1997 16:09:39 -0500 Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US Reply-To: yusuf@SPD-13.ils.nwu.edu [Our usual season's message from the Turkish Radio Hour and its volunteers] Happy Meleagris Gullapavo Day H.B. Paksoy Or, how the "thanksgiving bird" acquired its name: The homeland of the fowl known as "Meleagris gullopavo" or "americana sybestris auis," is the North American continent. The 1494 Tordesillas treaty, forged by the Pope in Rome, granted the monopoly of commerce originating from the newly discovered continent to the Portuguese (as opposed to the Spanish). The Portuguese brought this fowl to their Goa colony in India. Circa 1615, Cihangir (a direct descendent of the founder of the "Mughal" empire in India, Babur 1483-1530, who was himself a grandson of Timur who died in 1405) wrote his Tuzuk-u Jahangiri (Institutes of Cihangir). In his book, Cihangir also described this fowl in detail replete with a color drawing. Since "Meleagris gullopavo" resembled the "Meleagris Numida" commonly found in Africa (especially in Guinea), and already known in India, the former became known in British India as the "Guinea Fowl." [See O. Caroe, "Why Turkey." Asian Affairs (October 1970)]. Meleagris gullapavo was then introduced to Egypt, a province of the Ottoman empire and entered the Turkish language as Hindi ("India," or, "from India"). When traders took a breeding stock from Ottoman ("Turkish") Egypt to Spain and the British Isles, the bird was designated "Turkey." As a result, the pilgrims landing on Plymouth rock in 1620 were familiar with "Turkey," when they encountered it in their new home. After the 1776 Declaration of Independence, Benjamin Franklin suggested that "turkey" --native of the land-- be designated as the symbol of the young American republic. Instead, Haliaeetus leucocephalus ("Bald Eagle") was given this honor. Translated from: H. B. Paksoy, "Turk Tarihi, Toplumlarin Mayasi, Uygarlik" Annals of Japan Association for Middle East Studies (Tokyo) No. 7, 1992. Pp. 173-220. Footnote 26. [Reprinted in Yeni Forum (Ankara), Vol. 13, No. 277, Haziran 1992. Pp. 54-65]. *************************************************************************** Send email to Turkish Radio Hour <trh@aimnet.com> to subscribe to TRKNWS-L The URL for TRKNWS-L is http://www.cs.nwu.edu/~yusuf/turkey/trknws/ *************************************************************************** Message 9 in thread From: Yusuf B Gursey (ybg@world.std.com) Subject: Re: dinde Newsgroups: sci.lang Date: 2001-06-06 14:09:47 PST Yusuf B Gursey (ybg@world.std.com) wrote: : this is from soc.culture.turkish : : From: trknwsl-admin@nwu.edu [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US : Reply-To: yusuf@SPD-13.ils.nwu.edu : [Our usual season's message from the Turkish Radio Hour : and its volunteers] : Happy Meleagris Gullapavo Day : H.B. Paksoy : Or, how the "thanksgiving bird" acquired its name: let me add that egypt was called "turkey" even before the ottomans. the mamlukes were qypchaq turks (later circassians, but they kept up qypchaq for a while). the official name of the satte was called ad-dawlat-utturkiyya(t) "the turkish state" in arabic and eurpoeans during this period sometimes called it turkey (turcia, turchia) in short, according to the article, the americas -> (portugues) -> india "indian" -> eygpt "turkey" -> europe. in turkish the bird turkey is called hindi "indian". Message 10 in thread From: J. W. Love (lovejw@aol.comix) Subject: Re: dinde Newsgroups: sci.lang Date: 2001-06-07 04:33:18 PST <<Happy Meleagris Gullapavo Day>> How odd, since that's not the bird's name! (Hint: try _Meleagris Gallopavo._) OT question: why isn't the order the reverse, _Gallopavo meleagris,_ as in: _Creoboter meleagris,_ a speckled mantis _Fritillaria meleagris,_ the checkered lily _Lamprologus meleagris,_ the pearly ocellatus _Nodilittorina meleagris,_ a mottled barnacle _Ostracion meleagris,_ the spotted boxfish ======================================================================== ======================================================================== > > Cheddar (there must be more cheeses) > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > ] I think (taking the "wines and cheeses" as a model) you could > ] include *most* peppers: jalisco, jalapeño, tabasco, cayenne, sandia > <<Happy Meleagris Gullapavo Day>> > > How odd, since that's not the bird's name! > > (Hint: try _Meleagris Gallopavo._) Just want to say that there might be a reason for the discrepancy. Maybe it's a random spelling error, but maybe the scientists spelled it in more than one way in the past, and had not yet reconciled it into a single name. Taxonomists spend a lot of time chasing down these discrepancies, trying to figure out when two names are synonymous, and which one to use in future. > OT question: why isn't the order the reverse, _Gallopavo meleagris,_ > as [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > _Nodilittorina meleagris,_ a mottled barnacle > _Ostracion meleagris,_ the spotted boxfish The first word is the genus, the second word names the species. I would suspect that the naming scientists thought that those lilies, barnacles, boxfishes, etc, had some characteristic reminiscent of turkeys. But there could be other explanations as well. What I do know is that we recently talked about "Meleagris gallopavo" here, and there is a story behind the "Meleagris" part. Let's see: Meleager was, in Greek mythology, a prince who killed the Calydonian boar." The Meleagrides were the sisters of Meleager, who, according to the fable, bitterly lamented his death, and were changed into birds called after his name. The best we could explain "gallopavo" was "rooster-peacock" or "chickenfowl-peafowl" (gallo, gallus, gallina means rooster, hen, chick.) SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > <<Happy Meleagris Gullapavo Day>> > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Just want to say that there might be a reason for the discrepancy. Maybe > it's a random spelling error, but maybe the scientists spelled it in I'm betting on the spelling error. it was posted by non-native speakers of English, like me, but likely with even less education in English. > more than one way in the past, and had not yet reconciled it into a > single name. Taxonomists spend a lot of time chasing down these [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > "chickenfowl-peafowl" (gallo, gallus, gallina means rooster, hen, > chick.) > I wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Danishes > Berliners (although not in English) They are in South Australia, although they have icing on. > Manhattans (the drinks) > Turkey (oh, I slay myself) > Cheddar (there must be more cheeses) > Champagne > > What else? Most cheeses. In some dialects of English, 'a Chinese', 'an Indian' means Chinese/Indian meal. What about Chile (although we don't spell it that way)? SignatureRob Bannister > > There must be some other example of the same geographic name being used > > to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think of any at [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Manhattans (the drinks) and Manhattan clam chowder? New York (flavor of ice cream) New York (steak) New York minute? > New York (flavor of ice cream) What flavor? I'm familiar with "New York cherry", but not simply "New York". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |This isn't good. I've seen good, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |and it didn't look anything like Palo Alto, CA 94304 |this. | MST3K kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > New York (flavor of ice cream) > > What flavor? I'm familiar with "New York cherry", but not simply "New > York". It's a variety of vanilla--stronger and more cream-colored than most, yet not as rich in color or flavor as French vanilla. Cherry is just NY ice cream with cherry bits added. Sara Lorimer filted: >> There must be some other example of the same geographic name being used >> to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think of any at [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Manhattans (the drinks) and Manhattan clam chowder? French toast French fries French onion soup French dip sandwich (sorry, RF!) French-cut green beans French vanilla ice cream French's mustard That may be some kind of record...the Swiss have cheese, chocolate and chard, which should qualify them for some kind of alliteration credit....r > Sara Lorimer filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > That may be some kind of record...the Swiss have cheese, chocolate and chard, > which should qualify them for some kind of alliteration credit....r Excellent! Give that man a prize! I thought we might turn up something that stands alone, the way that "Satsuma" was used alone to mean both the citrus and the plum, but we haven't, yet. SignatureBest - Donna Richoux > I thought we might turn up something that stands alone, the way that > "Satsuma" was used alone to mean both the citrus and the plum, but we > haven't, yet. "A Satsuma" is a triple since it can, apparently, mean an orange, a plum, or a piece of pottery. So far we haven't identified even a double, and unless I missed some the only singles are wine regions ("a Bordeaux", "a Burgundy", "a Rioja"), cheeses ("a Gouda", "a Cheddar"), and "a New York" (meaning the ice cream, but I wonder if someone asking for "a New York" without further qualification would in fact get a serving of ice cream). SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much. "John Varela" <OLDlamps@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:ZKRm3c4Ddl7U-pn2-1OP5KCQnpPdW@dialup-171.75.33.144.Dial1.Washington1.Le vel3.net... > > I thought we might turn up something that stands alone, the way that > > "Satsuma" was used alone to mean both the citrus and the plum, but we > > haven't, yet. > > "A Satsuma" is a triple since it can, apparently, mean an orange, a plum, or a > piece of pottery. And when people refer to "satsuma" as a Japanese plum, it seems actually there are two kinds of Japanese plums: one is "ume", which you cannot eat them uncooked and usually have them as pickles or wine. Another looks like what we call "sumomo" or "puramu", http://www.davewilson.com/br40/br40_fruit_trees/br40Plum_Prun.html which tastes sweet and you usually eat them fresh. And then there are sweet potato ("satsuma-imo") and deep-fried surimi ("satsuma-age"). > So far we haven't identified even a double, and unless I > missed some the only singles are wine regions ("a Bordeaux", "a Burgundy", "a > Rioja"), cheeses ("a Gouda", "a Cheddar"), and "a New York" (meaning the ice > cream, but I wonder if someone asking for "a New York" without further > qualification would in fact get a serving of ice cream). Whisky-based cocktail "New York" is not known there? -- Nobuko Iwasaki > Whisky-based cocktail "New York" is not known there? Is that whiskey and sweet vermouth, garnished with a maraschino cherry and served in a stemmed glass? If so, we know it as a "Manhattan". SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much. >> Whisky-based cocktail "New York" is not known there? > > Is that whiskey and sweet vermouth, garnished with a maraschino > cherry and served in a stemmed glass? If so, we know it as a > "Manhattan". New York Cocktail ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Ingredients: Juice or 1/2 lemon or lime 1 lump sugar 2 dashes grenadine 1 1/2 oz whiskey Directions: Shake well and strain. Garnish with orange peel twist. Serve in: Cocktail glass http://www.obh.snafu.de/~solon/lofab/cocktails/cocktail_1787.html m. > > I thought we might turn up something that stands alone, the way that > > "Satsuma" was used alone to mean both the citrus and the plum, but we [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cream, but I wonder if someone asking for "a New York" without further > qualification would in fact get a serving of ice cream). Thinking about that a little more, I wonder if any but the wine examples are valid. In response to the question, "What kind of wine is that?", one might well respond, "It's a white burgundy," wherein burgundy is clearly a noun. In response to "What kind of cheese is that?" would one say "It's a Gouda" or "It's Gouda"? I rather think the latter, making Gouda an adjective. Similarly for the porcelain. One wouldn't respond "It's a Limoges," so it's doubtful one would respond "It's a Satsuma." On the other hand, I think I've found a couple of valid examples. "What kind of car is that?" "It's a Pontiac" or "It's a Cadillac." Pontiac and Cadillac are cities in Michigan, the former named for an Indian chief and the latter for a French explorer. SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much. >"What kind of car is that?" "It's a Pontiac" or "It's a Cadillac." Ah, yes - in that case, I submit a Winnebago. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove number to reply > >"What kind of car is that?" "It's a Pontiac" or "It's a Cadillac." > > Ah, yes - in that case, I submit a Winnebago. I don't know what twist this has taken. We started with "a Satsuma" meaning an orange and "a Satsuma" meaning a plum. I don't see that the names given above fit that. Sure, "a Pontiac" means the car, but we don't say the city is "a Pontiac," or the Indian chief, either. It will probably get too trivial if we broaden to all brand names like that. The same word can be used to name any number of different products. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna Richoux filted: >I don't know what twist this has taken. We started with "a Satsuma" >meaning an orange and "a Satsuma" meaning a plum. I don't see that the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >that. The same word can be used to name any number of different >products. Sometimes fun can be had with such things...a few years ago the editors of Car & Driver magazine did a comparo between the Chevrolet Beretta and the handgun of the same name...the gun did better in the speed category but the car was deemed more comfortable....r > Donna Richoux filted: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the same name...the gun did better in the speed category but the car was deemed > more comfortable....r I think that a UK car mag did a simlar comparison of Jaguars: the plane was faster, but couldn't carry as many passengers - oh, and the fuel consumption... SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com > I think that a UK car mag did a simlar comparison of Jaguars: the plane > was faster, but couldn't carry as many passengers - oh, and the fuel > consumption... Road & Track did a road test in which they borrowed a huge machine from the California Dept. of Highways that measured the surface hardness, resilience, and other properties of roads. SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much. > > > I thought we might turn up something that stands alone, the way that > > > "Satsuma" was used alone to mean both the citrus and the plum, but we [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Similarly for the porcelain. One wouldn't respond "It's a Limoges," so it's > doubtful one would respond "It's a Satsuma." Most of them will want a glass of pilsner when they arrive, and make sure it's cold, unlike last time. Then the first course will be a mixed pepper dish: get a bunch of Anaheims and jalapeños, a habañero or two, and then be sure to stock up on the cayenne and the tabasco. Oh, and I need some onions. Don't get Spanish onions, I want Vidalias. We're set for the pasta course, except we've run out of cheese. Get me a round of that great parmesan they have in the deli, a wedge of the romano, and -- oh, I almost forgot -- some crumbled Roquefort for the salad. We will have a macedoine for dessert: I want some of those kiwis, and the damsons that just came into season... a bag of valencias, of course, and a casaba or two. Get a bottle of cognac and one of curacao to jazz it up a little. We'll offer them a glass of port or sherry afterwards, and pass around a plate of florentines. -skipka >Oh, and I need some onions. Don't get Spanish onions, I want Vidalias. I'm not sure I can obtain Vidalias, but when, if ever in cooking, should red onions be used instead of Spanish onions? SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net > >Oh, and I need some onions. Don't get Spanish onions, I want Vidalias. > > I'm not sure I can obtain Vidalias, but when, if ever in cooking, > should red onions be used instead of Spanish onions? Vidalias (sweet yellow/white onions) and red onions are used in similar circumstances: in uncooked salsas, relishes, garnishes, and the like. They contain less of those noxious sulfur compounds that can make the strongest chef weep (and that break down with cooking). On the other hand, sweet onions are less flavorful than the standard yellow onions, so you don't want to use them in a robust onion soup or an onion tart. (Mexican cuisine usually calls for white onions, which share many characteristics with Vidalias and red onions. But the recipes incorporate flavor-enhancing tricks: roasting, for instance.) -skipka >> >Oh, and I need some onions. Don't get Spanish onions, I want Vidalias. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >share many characteristics with Vidalias and red onions. But the >recipes incorporate flavor-enhancing tricks: roasting, for instance.) I select onions as you do, it appears. I've noticed that red onions don't cook right -- hard to describe what I mean -- when I attempt to sauté them. I never use them in sauces or soups, much as I like them in certain other things. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net > Anaheims and jalapeños, a habañero > or two, and then be sure to stock up on the cayenne and the tabasco. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > one of curacao to jazz it up a little. We'll offer them a glass of > port or sherry afterwards, and pass around a plate of florentines. Very good! Except jalapeño and habañero aren't the names of places, they mean persons or things from Jalapa and Havana. SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much. > > Sara Lorimer filted: > > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > "Satsuma" was used alone to mean both the citrus and the plum, but we > haven't, yet. Pithiviers: a town in the Loire valley that gives its name to a classic large puff pastry found filled with almond cream. Also, lark pâté. -skipka > Pithiviers: a town in the Loire valley that gives its name to a > classic large puff pastry found filled with almond cream. Also, lark > pâté. That wins a prize for "most disturbing potential mistake," I say. SignatureSML ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu <http://pirate-women.com> sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus: > > Pithiviers: a town in the Loire valley that gives its name to a > > classic large puff pastry found filled with almond cream. Also, lark > > pâté. > > That wins a prize for "most disturbing potential mistake," I say. No mistake. If it is a bird, the French will eat it, even if they need a magnifying glass. SignatureDavid ===== > sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > No mistake. If it is a bird, the French will eat it, even if they > need a magnifying glass. Yes, but with almond cream? m. > sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > No mistake. If it is a bird, the French will eat it, even if they > need a magnifying glass. I meant the disturbing experience of expecting cream-filled pastry and being served lark pâté. SignatureSML ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu <http://pirate-women.com> sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus: > > sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I meant the disturbing experience of expecting cream-filled pastry and > being served lark pâté. Ah, I see. Crunchy Frog, anybody? SignatureDavid ===== >> There must be some other example of the same geographic name being used >> to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think of any at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >just call 'em baked beans and brown bread, though, and I suspect most >people who aren't writing cookbooks do the same. I've never heard of anyone actually making Boston Brown Bread. You just buy a can of it and slice off a piece. >There must be some other example of the same geographic name being used >to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think of any at >the moment. Closest I can come is Yorkshire pudding and Yorkshire >terrier. Do you have any good recipes for the latter? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> There must be some other example of the same geographic name being >> used to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think of >> any at the moment. Closest I can come is Yorkshire pudding and >> Yorkshire terrier. > > Do you have any good recipes for the latter? You've got a Yorkie that can read? m. >> There must be some other example of the same geographic name being >> used to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think of >> any at the moment. Closest I can come is Yorkshire pudding and >> Yorkshire terrier. > > Do you have any good recipes for the latter? Mrs Beeton wrote 'First catch your terrier ...' and wrote no more because she could never lay hands on the little bugger. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply > >There must be some other example of the same geographic name being used > >to identify two otherwise unrelated foods, but I can't think of any at > >the moment. Closest I can come is Yorkshire pudding and Yorkshire > >terrier. > > Do you have any good recipes for the latter? Same as for rabbit or goanna, unless the terrier is particularly fat. Mike. > > No; a) satsuma is a small, sweet orange, and > > OMG! All this time, I thought they were plums. Satsuma's are a plum: http://www.buyplantsonline.com/shop/searchresults.asp?ProdStock=FT001PL As well as a varitey of mandarin: http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/cemap/satsuma/satsuma.html Brian Rodenborn > b) walnut is BrE - they are native to the British Isles. Nope. The house that I commissioned and had built for me and the family in France in 1977 has a walnut tree in its front garden. I was there eating walnuts a few weeks ago. The garden is part of what was a very old orchard before the house was built. The house next door had a hazel nut tree, uprooted long ago. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >> b) walnut is BrE - they are native to the British Isles. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > uprooted long ago. > Robin, surely something can be native to more than one place ? (and anyway England and [parts of] France were once the same) There are references to walnut trees in England from Roman times. Bob Martin >> Does anyone know for sure if the last book (fifth) was Americanized at >> all? I never heard any particular mention of it and thought maybe that [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > skirting board baseboard > whilst while Whilst and while have different uses in UK English. > well shot of him well shut of him > come orf come off I thought this was a serious list. > skip dumpster > judgement judgment > he's mad he's a madman > timetables schedules Please! > peckers up spirits up Either the UK version forgot an apostrophe, or the Brit is unusually endowed. > revising reviewing > you've got you've gotten > 30th August August 30th > had got had gotten > torches lamps UK torch = US flashlight > fringe bangs > satsuma walnut (?!) How do you say "do you want to borrow my pencil" in French? > pot plant potted plant > having got having gotten > revision review > Careers Advice Career Advice > revision timetables study schedule > span himself around spun himself around SignatureSimon R. Hughes > > whilst while > > Whilst and while have different uses in UK English. But "whilst" is pretty much unknown in the US, so the change makes sense (although I'm not sure I'd have made it, as it would probably have been understood as "while"). If the difference was important, you'd need to do a different paraphrase. > > come orf come off > > I thought this was a serious list. I think it is. I suspect that the "orf" was changed because it would have implied a different pronunciation to American readers and wouldn't have had any sort of class connotation. Or, perhaps, it was changed because someone decided that it was a mistake and didn't belong in the mouth of whatever character was using it. In the latest Discworld book, _Monstrous Regiment_ (the first one I can remember not actually enjoying), some of the lower-class characters use the word "nood" for "nude". It took me a while to figure out what Pratchett was doing, as, of course, /nud/ is the pronunciation I'm familiar with. But at least I knew which one he meant. I've been taken aback in several books by "lurve", which looks to me like /lRv/, but I assume is meant to be what again is the standard pronunciation here, /l@v/, again implied to be somewhat substandard. > > timetables schedules > > Please! If this refers to classes, we don't have timetables here; we have schedules. A timetable here is more like a long-range list of milestones for achieving a goal. I'd have to look at the context, but I can see this being read the wrong way. > > peckers up spirits up > > Either the UK version forgot an apostrophe, or the Brit is > unusually endowed. I suspect it's in the context of something like "keep their X up". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I value writers such as Fiske. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |They serve as valuable object Palo Alto, CA 94304 |lessons by showing that the most |punctilious compliance with the kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |rules of usage has so little to do (650)857-7572 |with either writing or thinking |well. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --Richard Hershberger > I've been taken aback in several books by "lurve", which looks > to me like /lRv/, but I assume is meant to be what again is the > standard pronunciation here, /l@v/, again implied to be somewhat > substandard. I've always assumed this indicated a long vowel - the way some film stars and pop singers might say it. SignatureRob Bannister > > I've been taken aback in several books by "lurve", which looks > > to me like /lRv/, but I assume is meant to be what again is the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've always assumed this indicated a long vowel - the way some film > stars and pop singers might say it. I think so - something like [l@:v], so sounding like it would rhyme with non-rhotic "curve". I think it's specific to this word - I'd be surprised to see "durve" for "dove". The standard pronunciation of both "love" and "dove" (the bird) is with the "cut" vowel everywhere, as far as I know. Unlike Evan, I wouldn't call the "cut" vowel /@/, though. Jonathan > In the latest Discworld book, _Monstrous Regiment_ (the first one I > can remember not actually enjoying), some of the lower-class [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > standard pronunciation here, /l@v/, again implied to be somewhat > substandard. Don't you mean /lV"v/ ? /l@v/ suggests to me something like the first syllable of 'leviathan', which is not at all what 'lurve' would be meant to signify. -- Regards John > > In the latest Discworld book, _Monstrous Regiment_ (the first one > > I can remember not actually enjoying), some of the lower-class [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > first syllable of 'leviathan', which is not at all what 'lurve' > would be meant to signify. For me (and for MWCD10), the first syllable of "leviathan" has /I/ (or possibly /E/). When I studied phonology, the practice, among the professors as well as the text (Ladefoged), was to use /@/ (the schwa) for the vowel, whether stressed or not. It seemed (and still seems) silly to have one symbol for a mid-central vowel when stressed and another for it when unstressed, when we don't make the same distinction for other vowels. The other central vowel symbols were used for dialects minimal pairs with /@/, such as between "budd" and "bird". (In my dialect, that's /@/ and /R/, in others /@/ and /V"/, while in still others /@/ and the back /V/.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can we at least make it round this Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > > In the latest Discworld book, _Monstrous Regiment_ (the first one > > > I can remember not actually enjoying), some of the lower-class [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > For me (and for MWCD10), the first syllable of "leviathan" has /I/ (or > possibly /E/). I agree with John's /@/ - there seems to be a lot of variation around on weak vowels. > When I studied phonology, the practice, among the > professors as well as the text (Ladefoged), was to use /@/ (the schwa) > for the vowel, whether stressed or not. It seemed (and still seems) > silly to have one symbol for a mid-central vowel when stressed and > another for it when unstressed, when we don't make the same > distinction for other vowels. I would agree that that seems silly, if that is what happens in your dialect (which I presume it is). But in many dialects, including mine and presumably John's, the vowel of "cut" and "love" has a different quality from the schwa [1]. To me, it seems to make no more sense identifying it with the schwa than it does to identify one of the other short vowels (other than /I/) with the schwa. In fact, my /@/ is marginally stressable - "Ms" is /m@z/, and doesn't rhyme with "buzz". There's also the question of vowels before /r/ - see below. > The other central vowel symbols were > used for dialects minimal pairs with /@/, such as between "budd" and > "bird". (In my dialect, that's /@/ and /R/, in others /@/ and /V"/, > while in still others /@/ and the back /V/.) I would write /bVd/ and /b@rd/. Then "hurry" is /'hVrI/ and "furry" is /'f@rI/. The traditional RP transcription uses /@/ for the unstressed vowel, /V/ for the stressed "cut" vowel and /V":/ for the "bird" vowel. Oxford dictionaries have recently replaced /V":/ by /@:/. [1] In my dialect, it's actually a rounded vowel, which feels slightly lower than the schwa. Jonathan > But in many dialects, including mine and presumably John's, the vowel > of "cut" and "love" has a different quality from the schwa. To me, > it seems to make no more sense identifying it with the schwa than it > does to identify one of the other short vowels (other than /I/) with > the schwa. Aside: In my dialect, it actually makes a lot more sense to identify /U/ with the schwa than /V/. When I enunciate very carefully, yes, /U/ usually comes out as [U], but most of the time it's really sort of central and unrounded and has even less contrast with /@/ than the other short vowels do. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > For me (and for MWCD10), the first syllable of "leviathan" has /I/ (or > possibly /E/). When I studied phonology, the practice, among the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > another for it when unstressed, when we don't make the same > distinction for other vowels. But surely it is precisely for the unstressed form of some vowels that we use schwa for? SignatureRob Bannister >> For me (and for MWCD10), the first syllable of "leviathan" has /I/ (or >> possibly /E/). When I studied phonology, the practice, among the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > But surely it is precisely for the unstressed form of some vowels that > we use schwa for? The confusion here is due to the fact that the name "schwa" can be used to refer both to a particular vowel sound and to the symbol we use to represent that sound. We use the _sound_ schwa for the unstressed form of some vowel _phonemes_. Then we use the _symbol_ schwa to represent the sound schwa, whether stressed or unstressed. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > > peckers up spirits up > > Either the UK version forgot an apostrophe, or the Brit is > unusually endowed. More than one person is being addressed. Not to mention that you should wash your mind out with soap and water. Pecker (here) = beak. Adrian >>> peckers up spirits up >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > More than one person is being addressed. Not to mention that you should wash > your mind out with soap and water. Pecker (here) = beak. Pecker = nose. Having two noses is unusual, don't you think? What did you think I meant? SignatureSimon R. Hughes >>> peckers up spirits up >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > More than one person is being addressed. Not to mention that you should wash > your mind out with soap and water. Pecker (here) = beak. I really wonder about that one. I suspect it's one of the rude phrases that has become accepted over time and explained away with ideas like the one you put forward. A bit like "That'll put lead in your pencil." SignatureRob Bannister >> Does anyone know for sure if the last book (fifth) was Americanized >> at all? I never heard any particular mention of it and thought maybe [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > opportunity to do some minor revision, doing things like changing > tense from past to past perfect. How extraordinary. I wonder how long it took the fans to make that comparison? I was interested in << 'Have a biscuit," she repeated impatiently, indicating a tartan tin lying on top>> which became, for the US, << "Have a biscuit," she repeated impatiently, indicating a tartan tin of cookies lying on top >> Why introduce the word 'cookies' but leave the original 'biscuit'? Wouldn't it be more obvious to change to << 'Have a cookie," she repeated impatiently, indicating a tartan tin lying on top >>? -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply > How extraordinary. I wonder how long it took the fans to make that > comparison? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Wouldn't it be more obvious to change to << 'Have a cookie," she > repeated impatiently, indicating a tartan tin lying on top >>? I suspect that it was an attempt to make a minimal change. By doing it that way, it tells the American reader who doesn't already know (which would be most) that a "biscuit" is a cookie, and so the word can be used from then on without further change. A rather neat solution, actually. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Your claim might have more 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |credibility if you hadn't mispelled Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"inteligent" kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > How extraordinary. I wonder how long it took the fans to make that > > comparison? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > can be used from then on without further change. A rather neat > solution, actually. And it also preserves "her" British speech. That the tin was printed with tartan also indicates that the baked goods in question were probably shortbread. Mike. >>> How extraordinary. I wonder how long it took the fans to make that >>> comparison? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > with tartan also indicates that the baked goods in question were > probably shortbread. Mama's little baby loves shortnin' shortnin' ... -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply > "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> wrote... > > Also sprach Robert Bannister: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > a few months ago that Rowling uses "span" in _Harry Potter & the Order > of the Phoenix_ and assumed that it was a nod to American readers. It's also worth remembering Ghandhi's campaign in India, which was based on getting the Indian population to ditch foreign-made cotton goods and wear "homespun" goods. SignatureChristopher (Change 3032 to 3232 to reply by private e-mail) >It's also worth remembering Ghandhi's campaign in India, which (That's "Gandhi", by the way.) >was based on getting the Indian population to ditch foreign-made >cotton goods and wear "homespun" goods. But that's the past participle, which is always "spun". The question seems to be about the past tense, where "spun" has taken over from "span" to varying degrees among different speakers. David > It's also worth remembering Ghandhi's campaign in India, which > was based on getting the Indian population to ditch foreign-made > cotton goods and wear "homespun" goods. Irrelevant. "Homespun" is using a past participle form, not the simple past - they span the goods at home; they have spun the goods at home. SignatureRob Bannister >"Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> wrote... >> Also sprach Robert Bannister: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >a few months ago that Rowling uses "span" in _Harry Potter & the Order >of the Phoenix_ and assumed that it was a nod to American readers. My Collins (the 2000 edition that doesn't have "complicit" or "metrosexual") has: span archaic or dialect: a past tense of spin. Steve Hayes hayesmstw@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm |
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