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how to read "my boss' kid"?

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nick - 04 Jan 2004 22:31 GMT
How to read "my boss' kid"?  Do you read as 'my boss kid' or 'my
bosses kid'?
david56 - 04 Jan 2004 22:58 GMT
nick@news.com spake thus:

> How to read "my boss' kid"?  Do you read as 'my boss kid' or 'my
> bosses kid'?

I'd be inclined not to read it at all as it's missing an s:
My boss's kid.

Signature

David
=====

Mark Brader - 04 Jan 2004 23:18 GMT
"Nick":
> > How to read "my boss' kid"?  Do you read as 'my boss kid' or 'my
> > bosses kid'?

Both pronunciations are used, but the second one is more understandable
and I strongly prefer and recommend it.

"David":
> I'd be inclined not to read it at all as it's missing an s:
> My boss's kid.

No, both spellings are used.  But the second one is more logical, and
I strongly prefer and recommend it.
Signature

Mark Brader, Toronto | "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make
msb@vex.net          |  us see a thread which is not there." --E.H. Gombrich

Adrian Bailey - 05 Jan 2004 03:55 GMT
> "Nick":
> > > How to read "my boss' kid"?  Do you read as 'my boss kid' or 'my
> > > bosses kid'?
>
> Both pronunciations are used, but the second one is more understandable
> and I strongly prefer and recommend it.

No-one in their right mind would talk about their "boss kid" if they meant
their boss's kid.

> "David":
> > I'd be inclined not to read it at all as it's missing an s:
> > My boss's kid.
>
> No, both spellings are used.  But the second one is more logical, and
> I strongly prefer and recommend it.

David's right: the "s" is only omitted if it is not pronounced.

Adrian
Joe Fineman - 05 Jan 2004 22:26 GMT
> David's right: the "s" is only omitted if it is not pronounced.

That would make sense, but some people aren't very sensible.  I think
there are a lot of people who write "boss'" but say /bOs@z/.

As to *advice*, for once I agree with the style books: write 's, and
pronounce it, for the possessive of all singular nouns (with a few
exceptions).
Signature

---  Joe Fineman    jcf@TheWorld.com

||:  Though he was half mad in one way and I in another, we     :||
||:  instinctively turned toward each other our saner aspects.  :||
DE781 - 05 Jan 2004 22:50 GMT
Nick:

>> How to read "my boss' kid"?  Do you read as 'my boss kid' or 'my
>> bosses kid'?
>
>I'd be inclined not to read it at all as it's missing an s:
>My boss's kid.

Ignore the a.ses, Nick.  People here aren't actually here to help anyone;
they're just here to throw insults at each other.  This is arguably the most
off-topic message board/newsgroup/chatroom/website/whatever I've ever come
across on the net, and likewise it's full of people who don't know (or care)
all that much about English.

"My boss' kid", when pronounced, sounds like "my bosses kid", if that's what
you mean.  But, "my boss' kid" MEANS "the kid of my boss [singular]".  The only
time "my bosses' kid" would be appropriate is when you have two bosses (because
it's plural) who have a kid together.

BTW, David doesn't know what he's talking about.  You don't need to write it as
"boss's", at least if you're younger than, say, 300.
Adrian Bailey - 06 Jan 2004 06:45 GMT
> Nick:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Ignore the a.ses, Nick.

I take it that you disagree with some posts?

> People here aren't actually here to help anyone;
> they're just here to throw insults at each other.

Lie.

> This is arguably the most
> off-topic message board/newsgroup/chatroom/website/whatever I've ever come
> across on the net,

Your point being?

> and likewise it's full of people who don't know (or care)
> all that much about English.

Yeah, right. Thanks for the rant, DE.

> "My boss' kid", when pronounced, sounds like "my bosses kid", if that's what
> you mean.

Nope.

> But, "my boss' kid" MEANS "the kid of my boss [singular]".

Correct.

> The only
> time "my bosses' kid" would be appropriate is when you have two bosses (because
> it's plural) who have a kid together.

Correct.

> BTW, David doesn't know what he's talking about.  You don't need to write it as
> "boss's", at least if you're younger than, say, 300.

Wrong. If you pronounce it "boss's", you write it "boss's". Simple.

Adrian
Raymond S. Wise - 06 Jan 2004 10:08 GMT
> > Nick:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Nope.

I have to disagree. I don't care for it, myself, but I have no doubt that
<my boss' kid> is intended to be read with four syllables. You can see it
often used, for example, in closed captioning of television programs in the
US. A character onscreen will say "the boss's order," pronouncing "boss's"
in two syllables, or "the witness's statement," pronouncing "witness's" in
three syllables," but the closed captioning will render them as <the boss'
order> and <the witness' statement>.

The original poster, after all, asked how <my boss' kid> was to be
pronounced, and the answer is that it is to be pronounced just the same as
<my boss's kid>. If he had asked how to *write* the item in question, I
would advise him to write <my boss's kid>.

> > But, "my boss' kid" MEANS "the kid of my boss [singular]".
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Wrong. If you pronounce it "boss's", you write it "boss's". Simple.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Adrian Bailey - 06 Jan 2004 19:09 GMT
> > > "My boss' kid", when pronounced, sounds like "my bosses kid", if that's
> > what
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> three syllables," but the closed captioning will render them as <the boss'
> order> and <the witness' statement>.

Always? Are the subtitlers employing some non-rule?

> The original poster, after all, asked how <my boss' kid> was to be
> pronounced, and the answer is that it is to be pronounced just the same as
> <my boss's kid>.

But why should that conclusion be drawn? If I read "Mr Jones' house", I
should be able to infer that the author is pronouncing "Jones'" as one
syllable. Otherwise, what is the point exactly in having the option of
adding an s?

Adrian
Raymond S. Wise - 07 Jan 2004 06:11 GMT
> > > > "My boss' kid", when pronounced, sounds like "my bosses kid", if
> that's
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Always? Are the subtitlers employing some non-rule?

Because it's a matter of the written language, I have always assumed that
the captioners are following an explicit rule. In fact, in a post to
alt.english.usage a couple of years ago, I reported having read just such a
rule:

See
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=47dd044c.0201230002.a60e20d%40posting.googl
e.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain


or

http://tinyurl.com/22xue

[begin quote from Usenet post]

I have read of a rule where a modern name ending with <s> becomes a
possessive by adding an apostrophe and no <s>, but the result is
pronounced by adding an extra /s/, /@s/, or /@z/ to the name. I don't
believe the people who hold to this rule use it in the case of ancient
names such as those I gave above, and in any case, it seems a bizarre
rule to me. However, it appears to still be in use, because the other
day when I saw Ken Burns's documentary about Mark Twain, the narrator
made reference to /'hEnrI 'klEm@ns@z dET/, but the Closed Captioning
read "Henry Clemens' death." I would have pronounced it as the
narrator did, but written it "Henry Clemens's death."

[end quote from Usenet post]

> > The original poster, after all, asked how <my boss' kid> was to be
> > pronounced, and the answer is that it is to be pronounced just the same as
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> syllable. Otherwise, what is the point exactly in having the option of
> adding an s?

It would be useful if you could infer that the author is pronouncing <Jones>
as one syllable. However, the reality of the matter is that you cannot.
Today while reading in a local paper an article about rationing in American
medicine, I came across the following phrase: <Xigris' maker, Eli Lilly &
Co.> This reminded me that the rule in question does not seem to apply to
names. If someone writes <Charles' book> I don't really know if the author
intended for <Charles'> to be read in one syllable or two. By the same
token, I don't know if <Xigris'> is intended to be read as one syllable or
two.

And I gave the example in my post of <the witness' statement> being used to
represent a pronunciation in which <witness'> is pronounced in three
syllables. I think the following indicates that it could also be pronounced
in two syllables:

From *The American Heritage Book of English Usage* at
http://www.bartleby.com/64/82.html

[quote--I have not corrected their italics]

Note that although some people use just the apostrophe after singular nouns
ending in _s (the witness' testimony, Burns' poetry_), the _-'s_ is
generally preferred because it more accurately reflects the modern
pronunciation of these forms. However, in a few cases where the _-'s_ is not
pronounced, it is usual to add just the apostrophe: _for righteousness'
(appearance') sake._

[end quote]

I have not, as yet, encountered anyone who pronounced the possessive of
<boss> in less than two syllables. So to answer the original poster's
question, I am quite certain that <my boss' kid> is to be read with <boss'>
pronounced in two syllables, but no one can have the same certainly about
many other possessive forms of nouns ending in <s>.

Note that this situation would cause ambiguity even for someone reading *my*
writing, if they were not already familiar with it! If I were to write
<Charles' book>, I would do so with the intention that <Charles'> be
pronounced as one syllable (and I would do so only when representing the
speech of someone who would make a one-syllable possessive based upon the
name <Charles>. I prefer <Charles's> myself--see my reference above to <Ken
Burns's documentary>. But a reader unfamiliar with my opinion on such
matters simply could not be certain whether I intended <Charles'> to be
pronounced with one syllable or two.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Adrian Bailey - 07 Jan 2004 17:08 GMT
Thanks for your detailed reply. I think when I get around to launching
my own "Speak and Write English the Adrian Bailey Way" website <g>
I'll lobby for the spelling to reflect the proununciation, as it
should.

Adrian
DE781 - 14 Jan 2004 00:55 GMT
Adrian:

>Thanks for your detailed reply. I think when I get around to launching
>my own "Speak and Write English the Adrian Bailey Way" website <g>
>I'll lobby for the spelling to reflect the proununciation, as it
>should.

THE AUE MUST REMEMBER A DISCLAIMER ADVISING THOSE SERIOUS ABOUT LEARNING
ENGLISH TO **AVOID** THAT SITE AS **ALL COSTS**!!
DE781 - 14 Jan 2004 00:54 GMT
Adrian:

>> Ignore the a.ses, Nick.
>
>I take it that you disagree with some posts?

I disagree with a.sholes who harass the newcomer for typos.

>> People here aren't actually here to help anyone;
>> they're just here to throw insults at each other.
>
>Lie.

TRUTH!

>> This is arguably the most
>> off-topic message board/newsgroup/chatroom/website/whatever I've ever come
>> across on the net,
>
>Your point being?

That if someone's actually coming here for help with English, they should look
elsewhere.

>> and likewise it's full of people who don't know (or care)
>> all that much about English.
>
>Yeah, right. Thanks for the rant, DE.

Just letting the newcomer know it's nothing he did wrong that caused the
hostility towards him.

>> "My boss' kid", when pronounced, sounds like "my bosses kid", if that's
>what
>> you mean.
>
>Nope.

Yes.

>> But, "my boss' kid" MEANS "the kid of my boss [singular]".
>
>Correct.

Obviously.

>> The only
>> time "my bosses' kid" would be appropriate is when you have two bosses
>(because
>> it's plural) who have a kid together.
>
>Correct.

Again, it goes without saying.

>> BTW, David doesn't know what he's talking about.  You don't need to write
>it as
>> "boss's", at least if you're younger than, say, 300.
>
>Wrong. If you pronounce it "boss's", you write it "boss's". Simple.

Says who?  According to your logic, you must write "who" as "hoo" too, right?
Steve Hayes - 05 Jan 2004 17:47 GMT
>How to read "my boss' kid"?  Do you read as 'my boss kid' or 'my
>bosses kid'?

More likely "my boss's kid".

Steve Hayes
hayesmstw@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
 
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