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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Piggy banking?
Hi there! Is it correct, that 'piggy banking' can be used, when people are betting on others to do their job? Or is it following the others without contributing to the work? Or both, or something else :) ?  SignatureSpeaker : "And here we are at the start of the second semifinale of the 100 yards for people without any sense of direction." > Hi there! > > Is it correct, that 'piggy banking' can be used, when people are betting on > others to do their job? Or is it following the others without contributing > to the work? Or both, or something else :) ? I think you are confusing "piggy banking" with "piggback." > > Hi there! > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I think you are confusing "piggy banking" with "piggback." Oops, I should have read this before posting. The word is "piggyback." > I think you are confusing "piggy banking" with "piggback." Ah yes, indeed I was. Thanks for the clarification. So, is piggybacking commonly used to describe what I wrote in the first post? Or is that a less used expression, when describing that situation? SignatureSpeaker : "And here we are at the start of the second semifinale of the 100 yards for people without any sense of direction." > > I think you are confusing "piggy banking" with "piggback." > > Ah yes, indeed I was. Thanks for the clarification. So, is piggybacking > commonly used to describe what I wrote in the first post? Or is that a less > used expression, when describing that situation? "Piggyback" is used to describe anything that is carried along with a job and doesn't take part in the effort. Is this the sense of usage you were looking for? >>> I think you are confusing "piggy banking" with "piggback." >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > a job and doesn't take part in the effort. Is this the sense of > usage you were looking for? I've heard it used in a slightly different sense, where a second task is done based in part on the effort applied to the first task. That is, the second task is made easier because it is partially carried by the first, but it doesn't necessarily imply that no effort was expended on the second task. It may be somewhat more like what the original post mentioned, where the success of the second project depends on the heavy lifting done by the first. -- rzed >>>> I think you are confusing "piggy banking" with "piggback." >>> >>> Ah yes, indeed I was. Thanks for the clarification. So, is >>> piggybacking commonly used to describe what I wrote in the first >>> post? Or is that a less used expression, when describing that >>> situation? One expression that comes to mind is "riding someone's coattails", that is, benefitting from someone else's labor. >> "Piggyback" is used to describe anything that is carried along with >> a job and doesn't take part in the effort. Is this the sense of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > original post mentioned, where the success of the second project > depends on the heavy lifting done by the first. That's how I've heard it used, also. To my mind there's nothing negative about the term; it simply means that the second task was done more efficiently by making use of the efforts and results of the first. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>>>> I think you are confusing "piggy banking" with "piggback." >>>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >One expression that comes to mind is "riding someone's coattails", that >is, benefitting from someone else's labor. I would not agree with this definition of "riding on someone's coattails". To me, it means taking advantage of someone else's fame and not their work. A minor candidate might be elected to office because a major candidate of the same party provided the coattails. >>One expression that comes to mind is "riding someone's coattails", >>that is, benefitting from someone else's labor. > I would not agree with this definition of "riding on someone's > coattails". To me, it means taking advantage of someone else's > fame and not their work. A minor candidate might be elected to > office because a major candidate of the same party provided the > coattails. Good point. I wouldn't restrict its meaning to benefitting from someone's fame, but would also include someone's success. That's probably the sense I had in mind. The RHUD has "aided by association with another person", which seems pretty general, though not really dealing with the other person's work per se. It definitely has a negative flavor, which "piggybacking" doesn't have for me. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) << [Kim Noer] Is it correct, that 'piggy banking' can be used, when people are betting on others to do their job? Or is it following the others without contributing to the work? Or both, or something else :) ? [end quote] >> [later amended to piggybacking] << [Murray Arnow] "Piggyback" is used to describe anything that is carried along with a job and doesn't take part in the effort. Is this the sense of usage you were looking for? [end quote] >> There are also: (2) Making use of others work in a separate endeavor so that the whole effort does not need to be redone. Example: Starting from a web page developed in another office for another product and making appropriate changes to the text and using different pictures. (3) Used in explanations to shorten them by using the terminology and images developed by a previous speaker. (4) In Usenet, when an article B is posted as a reply to article A in order to be in the correct thread, but does not address any point made in article A, then article B is said to be "piggybacking on article A". -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > There are also: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > any point made in article A, then article B is said to be > "piggybacking on article A". For completeness, I might as well add that "piggyback" describes when someone rides on the back of another -- usually a child riding on the back of an adult. It does not really come from pigs, which don't engage in such behavior. A common variant is "pickaback" and Merriam-Webster says under "piggyback": Etymology: alteration of earlier a pick pack, of unknown origin Date: 1565 1 : up on the back and shoulders Here's a picture of a piggyback ride: http://www.rpsrelocation.com/_borders/piggyback%20ride.gif SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna Richoux filted: >For completeness, I might as well add that "piggyback" describes when >someone rides on the back of another -- usually a child riding on the >back of an adult. It does not really come from pigs, which don't engage >in such behavior. At the Reid Park Zoo in Tucson back in November, I watched one of the anteaters carrying her young around this way...maybe they should call it "anteaterback"....r > At the Reid Park Zoo in Tucson back in November, I watched one of the > anteaters carrying her young around this way...maybe they should call it > "anteaterback"....r If we do that, then carrying someone on your front should be "possumbellying". Apropos of nothing, I read recently that snakes are the wisest animals because they have the most contact with the Earth. Birds must be dumb. tomcatpolka@yaNOSPAMhoo.com filted: >> At the Reid Park Zoo in Tucson back in November, I watched one of the >> anteaters carrying her young around this way...maybe they should call it >> "anteaterback"....r > >If we do that, then carrying someone on your front should be "possumbellying". Only if they use a pouch.... >Apropos of nothing, I read recently that snakes are the wisest animals >because they have the most contact with the Earth. Birds must be dumb. Stupid maybe (after watching woodpeckers pick fights with their own reflections in my bedroom window I'm inclined to drop the "maybe") but never dumb, and particularly not the baby ones, when one in my attic wakes up suddenly at 2am and decides it would be a fine time for everyone to start singing....r >> At the Reid Park Zoo in Tucson back in November, I watched one of the >> anteaters carrying her young around this way...maybe they should call it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Apropos of nothing, I read recently that snakes are the wisest animals >because they have the most contact with the Earth. Birds must be dumb. And worms must be geniuses. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net > Here's a picture of a piggyback ride: > http://www.rpsrelocation.com/_borders/piggyback%20ride.gif So what do you call one person piggybacking another person piggybacking another? Piggybackbacking? Putting a girl on your shoulders and wrestling in a pool is called 'chicken fighting'. Not to be confused with horseplay. >> Here's a picture of a piggyback ride: >> http://www.rpsrelocation.com/_borders/piggyback%20ride.gif > >So what do you call one person piggybacking another person piggybacking >another? Piggybackbacking? Daisy-chaining. > For completeness, I might as well add that "piggyback" describes > when someone rides on the back of another -- usually a child riding [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Date: 1565 > 1 : up on the back and shoulders Well, you learn something new every day. I always presumed that it came from something like "pig-aback" and referred to the way I've seen people portrayed as carrying young pigs to market on their shoulders, with the hind legs on one side and the forelegs on the other. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Sometimes I think the surest sign 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that intelligent life exists Palo Alto, CA 94304 |elsewhere in the universe is that |none of it has tried to contact us. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > For completeness, I might as well add that "piggyback" describes > > when someone rides on the back of another -- usually a child riding [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > people portrayed as carrying young pigs to market on their shoulders, > with the hind legs on one side and the forelegs on the other. It would be interesting to see some citations for "pick pack," the oldest form, if someone's got the OED. I'd seen "pick-a-back" (dunno about hyphens) in old books as a child. Checking MasterTexts.com now, I find nothing for "piggyback" or "piggy-back", and only two Jack London quotes for "pick-a-back": He rode pick-a-back on a woolly-headed, black-skinned savage, ... www.mastertexts.com/London_Jack/ Adventure/Chapter00001 ... He saw the two whale-boats land on the beach, and the sick, on stretchers or pick-a-back, groaning and wailing, go by in lugubrious procession. ... www.mastertexts.com/London_Jack/ Adventure/Chapter00003 Checking Google for "pick pack" is nearly useless because there are thousands of hits for "pick/pack" as a business term (selecting items from warehouse shelves, and packaging them for shipping). I did stumble on someone's discussion of the term in question: Consider "I will give you a piggyback". How many times have you seen a pig giving another pig a ride on its back? As a devoted urban dweller I can't even remember the last time I saw a pig, except behind the wheel of a luxury car on the highway. The admirable Guinness Book of Curious Phrases explains that it has nothing to do with pigs or backs. The original phrase had to do with stacking objects in storage. Each successive object was laid on the back of the other in a manner described as "pick-pack", and from there the idea of something being carried on one's back it came to be called "pick-a-pack", and from there it was an easy, (albeit insane) leap to "piggyback". Another site quotes from "Horsefeathers & Other Curious Words" by Charles Earle Funk and Charles Earle Funk Jr. (Harper & Row, New York, 1986, first published in 1958). PICKABACK -- "If we count only three generations to a century, our ancestors were carrying their children or others 'pick-a-back' twelve generations ago and calling the manner by that name, or one very like it. That is, in the original dialect the term may have been 'pick pack', which may have referred to a pack picked (pitched) on one's shoulders. In the past hundred and fifty years the term has often been corrupted to 'piggy-back' or the like, but great honored men have, on occasion, been carried 'pickaback'"; none has yet been carried 'piggy-back.'" Webster's 1913 has Pickaback Pick"a*back` (?), adv. On the back or shoulders; as, to ride pickback. [Written also pickapack, pickback, and pickpack.] A woman stooping to take a child pickaback. R,Jefferies. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > It would be interesting to see some citations for "pick pack," the > oldest form, if someone's got the OED. Actually, the oldest form in the OED is "pickbacke": : 1565 J. CALFHILL Answ. Treat. Crosse 42b, To easy..is that way to : heauen, whereto we may be caried a pickbacke on a Roode. The first citation for "pick pack" is: : 1591 HARINGTON Orl. Fur. XXXIX. xlvii, Now Brandimart..leaps behind, a : pick pack, on his backe, And holds his armes. The etymological note is: : Origin and form uncertain; the earliest examples have back, but the : usual 17th c. forms had pack, which still occurs in some dialects; the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : evident that popular etymology analysed it in various ways from a very : early date -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom >> For completeness, I might as well add that "piggyback" describes >> when someone rides on the back of another -- usually a child riding [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >people portrayed as carrying young pigs to market on their shoulders, >with the hind legs on one side and the forelegs on the other. That may have been an original derivation, Evan. It certainly sounds logical. But Donna is right. We used to play piggyback at school in England when I were a lad. The two riders would often try to knock each other off the shoulders of their mounts. At school sports' days, two of the favourite races were a piggyback race and a three-legged race, where the right leg of one partner and the left leg of the other were tied together, so they had to try to coordinate their steps. Both races were often hilarious. In the piggyback race they often used to put a heavy kid on the back of a smaller, weaker one, so that there was much pushing and shoving, and collapsing of mounts. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >Well, you learn something new every day. I always presumed that it > >came from something like "pig-aback" and referred to the way I've [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That may have been an original derivation, Evan. It certainly sounds > logical. But Donna is right. About the activity? Certainly. About the etymology? I don't doubt it, but I'm not sure how your message supports it. The position I'm familiar with has the one on top on the shoulders with a leg on each side of the head, with the one on the bottom holding the legs, just as in the image I described. > We used to play piggyback at school in England when I were a > lad. The two riders would often try to knock each other off the > shoulders of their mounts. Those were "chicken fights" when and where I grew up. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Any programming problem can be 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |solved by adding another layer of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |indirection. Any performance |problem can be solved by removing kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |one. (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> >Well, you learn something new every day. I always presumed that it >> >came from something like "pig-aback" and referred to the way I've [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >side of the head, with the one on the bottom holding the legs, just as >in the image I described. Slight misunderstanding, caused by my not being clear enough. You are quite correct about how pigs were (and are?) carried, and I did not mean to argue about the etymology. I was just confirming Donna's description of the activity. >> We used to play piggyback at school in England when I were a >> lad. The two riders would often try to knock each other off the >> shoulders of their mounts. > >Those were "chicken fights" when and where I grew up. I don't remember any specific name for them here. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > The position I'm familiar with has the one on top on the shoulders with > a leg on each side of the head, with the one on the bottom holding the > legs, just as in the image I described. The position for "piggyback"? How odd. I don't have any name for what you describe other than "on someone's shoulders". The way I've always used and understood it, "piggyback" entails the rider's _arms_ being on either side of the mount's head, and the rider's legs being below the mount's armpits. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > > The position I'm familiar with has the one on top on the shoulders with > > a leg on each side of the head, with the one on the bottom holding the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > side of the mount's head, and the rider's legs being below the mount's > armpits. I'd call the higher position, "riding on someone's shoulders," and that led to some Google Images such as: http://www.nwrel.org/cfc/images/CF26.jpg As I said in another post, what I'd call "a piggyback ride" looks like: http://www.rpsrelocation.com/_borders/piggyback%20ride.gif I can't remember if we had clearly different words for these things when I was small, though. Oh, this reminds me of another meaning of "to skin the cat." A sort of amateur acrobatic move, when a small kid faces an adult, holds hands, walks up their legs and body, and ends by twirling in the air and being set down. I don't find any Google Images at all, so it must have some more politically correct name. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > Oh, this reminds me of another meaning of "to skin the cat." A sort > of amateur acrobatic move, when a small kid faces an adult, holds > hands, walks up their legs and body, and ends by twirling in the air > and being set down. I don't find any Google Images at all, so it > must have some more politically correct name. Also used, if I recall correctly, for pulling yourself up into a sitting position on a horizontal support above your head (such as a tree branch). You hold onto the branch, flip yourself over so that your feet point upwards, and then pull yourself upwards with your arms until you're high enough to shift your center of mass over the branch and swing into a sitting position. I was never much good at it. Or is that something else? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |English grammar is not taught in 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |primary or secondary schools in the Palo Alto, CA 94304 |United States. Sometimes some |mythology is taught under that kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |rubric, but luckily it's usually (650)857-7572 |ignored, except by the credulous. | John Lawler http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Oh, this reminds me of another meaning of "to skin the cat." A sort >> of amateur acrobatic move, when a small kid faces an adult, holds [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Or is that something else? If you weren't very good at it, I don't think it would be "something else". m. > > Oh, this reminds me of another meaning of "to skin the cat." A sort > > of amateur acrobatic move, when a small kid faces an adult, holds [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Or is that something else? Your description is something like the inverse of my understanding. As my sisters did, hanging on a crossbar: They drew their feet up, over their heads and under the bar, until a complete somersault was completed, and they would hang suspended, shoulders dislocated, until they would drop to the ground or reverse the procedure. It hurts me even to remember it now. Skinning the cat never looked like fun to me. I never tried it. I wonder, do guys not have the physique to handle this? Maybe on the rings in Olympic contests they can do this for great points? The reversal especially would certainly take great upper-body strength. Pre-teen girls don't have the heaviness below the waist that older women do. >> > The position I'm familiar with has the one on top on the shoulders with >> > a leg on each side of the head, with the one on the bottom holding the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >set down. I don't find any Google Images at all, so it must have some >more politically correct name. My son always called it "Daddydoitagain!" >Oh, this reminds me of another meaning of "to skin the cat." A sort of >amateur acrobatic move, when a small kid faces an adult, holds hands, >walks up their legs and body, and ends by twirling in the air and being >set down. I don't find any Google Images at all, so it must have some >more politically correct name. Also one of the yo-yo tricks as shown at: http://kwos.yoyoing.com/finaltricks/skincat/ >> > The position I'm familiar with has the one on top on the shoulders with >> > a leg on each side of the head, with the one on the bottom holding the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I can't remember if we had clearly different words for these things when >I was small, though. Neither can I. But the position in the first link above was mainly used by adults carrying small children, while the second link was used by people of more or less the same size. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >> The position I'm familiar with has the one on top on the >> shoulders with a leg on each side of the head, with the one on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > rider's _arms_ being on either side of the mount's head, and the > rider's legs being below the mount's armpits. The RHUD and MWCD11 consider either position to be piggyback, which agrees with how I've always used the term. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) > Here's a picture of a piggyback ride: > http://www.rpsrelocation.com/_borders/piggyback%20ride.gif Here's another, sometimes called a "piggyback trailer": http://www.blwnscale.com/blwphotos/fy-piggyback-bnsf.jpg This page has some pics of real ones, in various stages of undress: http://www.xtraintermodal.com Jon Miller > There are also: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > any point made in article A, then article B is said to be > "piggybacking on article A". There is also the more literal usage when a semitrailer is "piggybacked" on a railroad flatcar. SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much. >There are also: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > any point made in article A, then article B is said to be > "piggybacking on article A". Then there is also the "gaining entrance despite security measures" sense - as in I loiter behind someone waiting to be buzzed in via a secured door into a building. As the door is opened for them and they enter, I follow closely behind... before the door closes again. Likewise in a computer networked environment, some nasty code can be piggybacked in on an otherwise legitimate and seemingly innocuous message. (cf payload) Eavesdropping electronics can be piggybacked in via delivery of an otherwise legitimate and seemingly innocuous piece of gear - such as a laser printer. Jitze > Then there is also the "gaining entrance despite security measures" > sense - as in I loiter behind someone waiting to be buzzed in > via a secured door into a building. As the door is opened for them > and they enter, I follow closely behind... before the door closes > again. Where I work, that's called "tailgating". Brian Rodenborn > "Piggyback" is used to describe anything that is carried along with a > job and doesn't take part in the effort. Is this the sense of usage > you were looking for? Very close, I thought it was knowingly exploiting the fact, that some one other did the job, and then you wouldn't have to do the job - with a scent of devious behaviour. But it looks like, when I read the other posts, that it can also apply to those who just 'follow' the stream. That means no devious thoughts behind and/or knowingly. SignatureSpeaker : "And here we are at the start of the second semifinale of the 100 yards for people without any sense of direction." > > "Piggyback" is used to describe anything that is carried along with a > > job and doesn't take part in the effort. Is this the sense of usage [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > other did the job, and then you wouldn't have to do the job - with a scent > of devious behaviour. I don't recall hearing "piggyback" used to specifically describe a devious act. It is just the description of how a task is accomplished. A piggyback action can be either benign or parasitic. > But it looks like, when I read the other posts, that it can also apply to > those who just 'follow' the stream. That means no devious thoughts behind > and/or knowingly. Yes. But "piggyback" doesn't mean to be a follower. The reason for piggybacking can be totally unrelated to the associated action. |
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