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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004US sports vocabulary creeping into UK media talk
Over the weekend there was a football (AmE soccer) commentary in which a ball kicked from one end of the pitch to the other (a long ball') was said to be hanging' Similarly, in this BBC piece [1], it says that Manchester United had Not drawn on the road in the League this campaign.' (BrE for on the road' is away'.) There is a fair amount of American (BrE) sport shown on British TV but mostly in the middle of the night, for obvious reasons. And taped games aren't the same, even if you don't know the score. The influence must be coming from somewhere, though [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/3362517.stm >Over the weekend there was a football (AmE soccer) commentary in which >a ball kicked from one end of the pitch to the other (a long ball') >was said to be > >hanging' I'm not quite sure what you mean. We don't use "hanging" to describe a kick. We *do* refer to the "hang time" of a kick. In the Oklahoma/LSU game a hang time counter was shown in the screen for every punt. The seconds the ball is in the air is important because the longer the hang time the more opportunity the defenders have to get to the person catching the ball. >Similarly, in this BBC piece [1], it says that Manchester United had > >Not drawn on the road in the League this campaign.' >(BrE for on the road' is away'.) As it is here. "On the road" or a "road game" means a game away from the team's home stadium. > >Over the weekend there was a football (AmE soccer) commentary in which > >a ball kicked from one end of the pitch to the other (a ?long ball') [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the longer the hang time the more opportunity the defenders have to > get to the person catching the ball. I do hope Americans will adopt the terms "Garryowen" and "up and under" for such cases. For a few years now the neat expression "turnover" has been used in Rugby: I think in my playing days we had to use phrases, such as "change of possession", "loss of possession", or "gaining possession". I assume it's of US origin. Mike. > I do hope Americans will adopt the terms "Garryowen" The announcer from _Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In_? Oh, wait; that's Gary Owens. > and "up and under" for such cases. > > For a few years now the neat expression "turnover" has been used in > Rugby: I think in my playing days we had to use phrases, such as > "change of possession", "loss of possession", or "gaining > possession". I assume it's of US origin. It's certainly common here, mostly in football and basketball.  SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There are two types of people - 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |those who are one of the two types Palo Alto, CA 94304 |of people, and those who are not. | Leigh Blue Caldwell kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > I do hope Americans will adopt the terms "Garryowen" > > The announcer from _Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In_? Oh, wait; that's > Gary Owens. Maybe it refers to the marching song. That's bad in the US, because it was the regimental song for the 7th Cavalry as they went off to The Little Big Horn. That didn't go so well for them. Brian Rodenborn >> > I do hope Americans will adopt the terms "Garryowen" >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >was the regimental song for the 7th Cavalry as they went off to The >Little Big Horn. That didn't go so well for them. Well it isn't really bad in the U.S. Garry Owen is the battle cry of the First Air Cavalry Division, or at least one of them. I heard it used in Vietnam in 1969. My understanding, at the time, was that it was a direct reference to the 7th Cav which may have been a part of the First Air Cav. We'll need an expert on order of battle to straighten that out. This web site is evidence that the song is associated with the First Air Cavalry Division. http://www.vvm.com/~firstcav/ Brian Wickham > >Maybe it refers to the marching song. That's bad in the US, because it > >was the regimental song for the 7th Cavalry as they went off to The [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the First Air Cav. We'll need an expert on order of battle to > straighten that out. Depends on what you mean by, "in the US". While the song may be one of the marches used by the Air Cav, it's not (to my knowledge) linked as such in the minds of the general public. People who recognize the song will most likely associate it with the movies they've seen of Custer riding off to his doom to the strains of the Garry Owen. Brian Rodenborn Mike Lyle: > > For a few years now the neat expression "turnover" has been used in > > Rugby: I think in my playing days we had to use phrases, such as > > "change of possession", "loss of possession", or "gaining > > possession". I assume it's of US origin. Evan Kirshenbaum: > It's certainly common here, mostly in football and basketball. It's been some years since I watched much football (and then Canadian rather than American), but "turnover" to me means a loss of possession *due to an error* -- that is, a fumble or interception. It would not include a punt, for example; you *expect* to lose possession then. I don't think it would include a loss of possession on downs, either. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make msb@vex.net | us see a thread which is not there." --E.H. Gombrich My text in this article is in the public domain. >Mike Lyle: >> > For a few years now the neat expression "turnover" has been used in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >include a punt, for example; you *expect* to lose possession then. >I don't think it would include a loss of possession on downs, either. As a evidently-more-frequent watcher of American football, I agree with Mark. A turnover is an unplanned relinquishing of possession. "Turnovers" is also a term used in basketball with the same meaning. > >Mike Lyle: > >> > For a few years now the neat expression "turnover" has been [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >*expect* to lose possession then. I don't think it would include a > >loss of possession on downs, either. Right. > As a evidently-more-frequent watcher of American football, I agree > with Mark. A turnover is an unplanned relinquishing of possession. Well, I'd consider loss on downs to be an "unplanned relinquishing" as well, and it isn't a turnover to me, either. > "Turnovers" is also a term used in basketball with the same meaning. Although again, there are "unplanned relinquishings" that aren't turnovers. Fouls, for example. Or defensive rebounds. I'd list violations (e.g., travelling, double dribble), out-of-bounds, shot-clock violations, and having the ball stolen. Possibly a few others. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |First Law of Anthropology: 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | If they're doing something you Palo Alto, CA 94304 | don't understand, it's either an | isolated lunatic, a religious kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | ritual, or art. (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> >Mike Lyle: >> >> > For a few years now the neat expression "turnover" has been [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Well, I'd consider loss on downs to be an "unplanned relinquishing" as >well, and it isn't a turnover to me, either. I'd consider the loss of possession on downs to be a plan gone awry. >> "Turnovers" is also a term used in basketball with the same meaning. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >shot-clock violations, and having the ball stolen. Possibly a few >others. > >> As a evidently-more-frequent watcher of American football, I > >> agree with Mark. A turnover is an unplanned relinquishing of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I'd consider the loss of possession on downs to be a plan gone awry. As opposed to "I planned to hold onto the ball..."? :-) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The law of supply and demand tells us 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that when the price of something is Palo Alto, CA 94304 |artificially set below market level, |there will soon be none of that thing kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |left--as you may have noticed the (650)857-7572 |last time you tried to buy something |for nothing. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke << [halcombe] Over the weekend there was a football (AmE soccer) commentary in which a ball kicked from one end of the pitch to the other (a 'long ball') was said to be 'hanging' [end quote] >> << [Tony Cooper] I'm not quite sure what you mean. We don't use "hanging" to describe a kick. We *do* refer to the "hang time" of a kick. In the Oklahoma/LSU game a hang time counter was shown in the screen for every punt. The seconds the ball is in the air is important because the longer the hang time the more opportunity the defenders have to get to the person catching the ball. [end quote] >> I could use 'hanging' to describe a kick. 'Hanging' is appropriate anytime that the ball stays up in the air longer than expected, or to put it another way, comes down more slowly than expected. This could happen in football (AmE soccer) if the ball has a lot of underspin, or it hit an updraft, or was kicked into certain winds. In American football I don't think underspin is possible, but certainly you could say "The quarterback threw the ball into the wind and then we saw the ball hanging in the wind and both the receiver and the defender jumping too early." -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Over the weekend there was a football (AmE soccer) commentary in which >a ball kicked from one end of the pitch to the other (a long ball') [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >The influence must be coming from somewhere, though "Away" is used in American English as well, particularly in more formal contexts such as printed schedules. "On the road" is usually used more colloquially. As for a ball "hanging", in American football one will hear references to a punted ball's "hang time", i.e. the length of time it is in the air. I suppose you could refer to a ball with a long hang time as "hanging", but I don't think of this as a fixed expression. Perhaps the expression comes from basketball? That is just a guess, as I am largely unfamiliar with that game. Richard Hershberger > >Over the weekend there was a football (AmE soccer) commentary in which > >a ball kicked from one end of the pitch to the other (a long ball') [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > the expression comes from basketball? That is just a guess, as I am > largely unfamiliar with that game. In baseball a pitcher can "hang" a curve. Actually, the ball doesn't curve, and that's the problem -- it just hangs out in front of the batter rather than breaking toward or away from him. Hang a curve to a good hitter and watch the ball disappear over the fence. Some basketball players are truly spectacular jumpers and are sometimes said to "hang" for a while before getting off a shot. And then there's "hangman" ... SignatureBob Lieblich Who's not fit for hanging (I hope) Robert Lieblich <Robert.Lieblich@Verizon.net> wrote, in part: > In baseball a pitcher can "hang" a curve. Actually, the ball > doesn't curve, and that's the problem -- it just hangs out in front > of the batter rather than breaking toward or away from him. Hang a > curve to a good hitter and watch the ball disappear over the fence. I don't think a curve is supposed to break toward or away from the batter; it's supposed to break downward, passing under a swung bat. As you suggest, a hanging curve attempts to pass through the bat but rarely makes it. Assuming the pitcher and batter have the same handedness, a slider is supposed to break (down and) away from the batter. A screwball is supposed to break toward the batter. You can look it up. [...] > In baseball a pitcher can "hang" a curve. Actually, the ball > doesn't curve, and that's the problem -- it just hangs out in front [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Some basketball players are truly spectacular jumpers and are > sometimes said to "hang" for a while before getting off a shot. I recall hearing that it is physically impossible to jump from one place to another on the same level (i.e. not jumping off a cliff) and remain in the air for even such a short time as a second (Crouching Tiger notwithstanding). Edward SignatureThe reading group's reading group: http://www.bookgroup.org.uk Edward filted: >I recall hearing that it is physically impossible to jump from one >place to another on the same level (i.e. not jumping off a cliff) and >remain in the air for even such a short time as a second (Crouching >Tiger notwithstanding). There are ways to make it *look* like you're doing this, however...dancer/mime/sculptor Robert Shields used to do a leap into the air, then tuck his legs in...the effect was that he remained off the ground for much longer than you'd think possible in a simple flat-footed bound....r >Edward filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >then tuck his legs in...the effect was that he remained off the ground for much >longer than you'd think possible in a simple flat-footed bound....r Nijinsky must have done something similar. Many people claimed to have seen him actually hover at the top of a leap. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". >> Edward filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Nijinsky must have done something similar. Many people claimed to have > seen him actually hover at the top of a leap. I thought he only ran on the flat. m. >> Some basketball players are truly spectacular jumpers and are >> sometimes said to "hang" for a while before getting off a shot. The period of being nearly motionless at the top of a jump is always the same duration, regardless of jump size, provided of course that the jump is big enough that part of the jump is outside that category. >I recall hearing that it is physically impossible to jump from one >place to another on the same level (i.e. not jumping off a cliff) and >remain in the air for even such a short time as a second (Crouching >Tiger notwithstanding). If you jump up 4 feet on a level surface the jump will take a second. Of course that means you'll have to shift your centre of gravity up by 4 feet. Since high jumpers are allowed to start vertical and then slip over the bar horizontally we have to add in the height of their centre of gravity when standing. The CofG of a standing adult fit athletic male with arms at sides is located at around 56% of height. That means a 6ft man will do a one second jump if he can clear a bar of 4' + 0.56 x 6' = 7'4.32" or 2.24m. Since the world record now stands at 2.45m I think we can safely say that it is extremely difficult to jump up for one second, but not quite impossible. -- Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] > Robert Lieblich <Robert.Lieblich@Verizon.net> wrote > [...] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > remain in the air for even such a short time as a second (Crouching > Tiger notwithstanding). It sure as hell *seems* like that's what's happening, though. I suspect that it may have something to do with the fact that the player may move the ball relative to their body as they're going up, so that it looks like they're at the top of the arc while they're still going up (or that they are still there after they've started going down). It also probably has to do with players who are good enough to actually be paying attention to the rest of the court while they're jumping and be able to change plansin mid-air. Michael Jordan was famous for jumping and appearing to stop in mid-air and decide what to do next (pass or shoot). Stanford had one who could do this a few years ago, Kristin Folkl, and she was fun to watch. She was also on the volleyball team, and she would do the same thing when she went up for spikes. It looked as though she got to the top of her jump, stopped, looked around at the defense, and then decided where to hit the ball. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If a bus station is where a bus 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |stops, and a train station is where Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a train stops, what does that say |about a workstation? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>Robert Lieblich <Robert.Lieblich@Verizon.net> wrote >>[...] [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > stopped, looked around at the defense, and then decided where to hit > the ball. Australian footballers (OtherE: Aussie Rules players) definitely 'hang', but that's because they're semi-illegally standing on or climbing up the opposition player's back. SignatureRob Bannister > > >Over the weekend there was a football (AmE soccer) commentary in which > > >a ball kicked from one end of the pitch to the other (a ?long ball') [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > of the batter rather than breaking toward or away from him. Hang a > curve to a good hitter and watch the ball disappear over the fence. This isn't really analogous to the usage in the original post. First off, a hanging curve is pretty much entirely unlike "a ball kicked from one end of the pitch to the other". And in baseball do we ever speak of a botched curve ball as simply "hanging"? I would call it a "hanging curve" and say that the pitcher "hanged [hung?] a curve" but a pitch, even travelling at a modest 70 mph, doesn't really give us the opportunity to describe it as "hanging". Richard R. Hershberger > I would call it a "hanging curve" and say that the pitcher "hanged > [hung?] a curve" "Hung" for me. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The purpose of writing is to inflate 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and inhibit clarity. With a little |practice, writing can be an kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |intimidating and impenetrable fog! (650)857-7572 | Calvin http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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