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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Countable use of uncountable nouns
The following nouns which mean objects with unfixed shape and materials are considered uncountable. So they cannot have the plural forms with these meanings. But could these nouns be used as countable nouns as shown in the following when they mean "sort of them" though these usage may require very specific situations? for example uncountable nouns countable usage an expected answer butter How many butters do you have? two: a German butter and a French butter cheese How many cheeses do you have? two cottage cheeses and one blue cheese oil How many oils do you have? one olive oil and two sesami oils beer How many beers do you have? one draft beer and two pilsner beers water How many waters do you have? two: evian and alps dressing How many dressings do you have? two: Italian and French dressings sugar How many sugars do you have? one:maple sugar beef How many beefs do you have? two: Aussie and American bread How many breads do you have? two:English Thank you. G.Cantor "Georg Cantor" <georgxcantor@hotmail.com> wrote on 07 Jan 2004: > The following nouns which mean objects with unfixed shape and > materials are considered uncountable. > So they cannot have the plural forms with these meanings. > But could these nouns be used as countable nouns as shown in the > following when they mean "sort of them" > though these usage may require very specific situations? Sure they can, but at a place that carries more than one type of what you're asking for, the person you're talking to will more than likely ask what you mean. It's not at all unusual for native speakers of English to order "5 beers" instead of 5 bottles, steins, or glasses of beer. We drop the counter (glass, bottle, stein, type, sort, kind). But if your order is the first one of the evening, whoever is taking the order will more than likely ask you what kind of beer you want. On the second and later orders, though, the ordertaker will be able to see what you've already had and will more than likely bring you more of the same It is not clear whether you want to know how many items are on the shelf or how many different types are for sale. With beer, for example, I'd have to ask "How many imported beers do you carry?" or "How many types of beer do you sell?", the latter specifically if I wanted your answer. I don't think that "how many" is automatically assumed to mean "what kind(s) of". > for example > uncountable nouns countable usage [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > you have? > two:English  SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > The following nouns which mean objects with unfixed shape and materials are > considered uncountable. > So they cannot have the plural forms with these meanings. > But could these nouns be used as countable nouns as shown in the following > when they mean "sort of them" > though these usage may require very specific situations? Yes, no problem: it's normal. Mike. > The following nouns which mean objects with unfixed shape and materials are > considered uncountable. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > bread How many breads do you have? > two:English Yes, you can, but it's not normal ("how many types/kinds/brands/makes of..." being more usual), and in some cases it should be avoided altogether because of ambiguity. For example, the word "beef" is countable when it means "complaint" and sugar is countable when it means "teaspoon of sugar". Furthermore, "waters" would be called "mineral waters" in this context. Adrian > The following nouns which mean objects with unfixed shape and materials are > considered uncountable. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > bread How many breads do you have? > two:English Right you are--you expressed the distinction well, and gave good examples. Most of these uncountables are frequently used in the countable sense you've defined here, and in context, which is usually fuller than your economical sample question, they're used with no confusion as to which sense is meant. "Butters," "beefs," and "sugars" are more unusual than the others, at least where I'm from, but given context, of course, they'd make sense as well. "Beefs" is probably subject to more confusion, since especially in its plural it might be taken to mean "gripes." Moreover, "beeves" is still an acceptable plural, especially when people are referring to cattle. Oh yeah, and some people, particularly aunts, when they ask for "sugars," are asking for kisses. Context is all. SignatureCheers, Jody jodybilyeu@smsu.edu > Moreover, "beeves" is still an acceptable > plural, especially when people are referring to cattle. This has been done before on AUE. As far as I know, this is strictly North American usage. SignatureRob Bannister Hello Ms.Bilyeu, Thank you for answering my questions.But unfortunately I could not read your answers because they were deleted while I was out for a few days.I am very curious about your answers.Could you kindly post them again if you don't mind? Thank you Georg Gantor > > Moreover, "beeves" is still an acceptable > > plural, especially when people are referring to cattle. > > This has been done before on AUE. As far as I know, this is strictly > North American usage. > Hello Ms.Bilyeu, > Thank you for answering my questions.But unfortunately I could not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thank you > Georg Gantor Rethink that "Ms." http://www.smsu.edu/english/faculty/bilyeu.html SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > > Hello Ms.Bilyeu, > > Thank you for answering my questions.But unfortunately I could not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://www.smsu.edu/english/faculty/bilyeu.html Thanks for the gender clarification, there, Skitt. The post you replied to didn't get picked up on my server. Georg, I'm cutting and pasting below the only thing I wrote under this thread. Before I do, apropos of this I should relate that my wife and I pulled up to a drive-through coffee place today, and observing the packets of sweetening agents they had displayed by the window, before I even thought about it, I told her, "Hey, this place has three sweeteners and two sugars." (The two sugars were "Raw" and processed.) "Cool," she replied. But she opted to try one of their sugar-free flavorings instead. Carmel. Anyway: Right you are--you expressed the distinction well, and gave good examples. Most of these uncountables are frequently used in the countable sense you've defined here, and in context, which is usually fuller than your economical sample question, they're used with no confusion as to which sense is meant. "Butters," "beefs," and "sugars" are more unusual than the others, at least where I'm from, but given context, of course, they'd make sense as well. "Beefs" is probably subject to more confusion, since especially in its plural it might be taken to mean "gripes." Moreover, "beeves" is still an acceptable plural, especially when people are referring to cattle. Oh yeah, and some people, particularly aunts, when they ask for "sugars," are asking for kisses. Context is all. SignatureCheers, Jody jodybilyeu@smsu.edu >Thanks for the gender clarification, there, Skitt. I read, or at least skim through, all posts. I was absolutely sure that your name was "Judy". "Jody" is not that uncommon to me and I have known several people named Jody. All male except one, and I think she spelled it "Jodie". (I never saw it written) Funny how we can read something, form the wrong impression, and continue to read it the same way over and over. > >Thanks for the gender clarification, there, Skitt. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > can read something, form the wrong impression, and continue to read it > the same way over and over. I'm starting to get nervous about the number of words I catch myself drastically and strangely misreading, especially signs while driving, like reading the word "Grapevine" as "Gabardine," for instance. Presumably I catch only the weirdest ones, and the non-weird misreadings pass unnoticed. Soon--who knows--maybe I won't even catch the weird ones, and I'll find myself giving directions like, "You'll stay on Underpants 44 until you get to the Kansas Regretsway..." SignatureCheers, Jody jodybilyeu@smsu.edu > I'm starting to get nervous about the number of words I catch myself drastically > and strangely misreading, especially signs while driving, like reading the word > "Grapevine" as "Gabardine," for instance. Presumably I catch only the weirdest > ones, and the non-weird misreadings pass unnoticed. Soon--who knows--maybe I > won't even catch the weird ones, and I'll find myself giving directions like, > "You'll stay on Underpants 44 until you get to the Kansas Regretsway..." Ah yes, the fun of "wacky parsing". Brian Rodenborn > > Moreover, "beeves" is still an acceptable > > plural, especially when people are referring to cattle. > > This has been done before on AUE. As far as I know, this is strictly > North American usage. Sometimes parts of UK, too. Mike. On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:45:51 +0900, Georg Cantor <georgxcantor@hotmail.com> asked about countable objects. Just thought I'd mention. Michael Hamm Since mid-September of 2003, AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis I've been erasing too much UBE. msh210@math.wustl.edu Of a reply, then, if you have been cheated, http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ Likely your mail's by mistake been deleted. Michael Hamm wrote: > Georg Cantor asked about countable objects. > > Just thought I'd mention. Don't. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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