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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004"Racist" Billary (WTF?):
"Hillary Clinton 'truly regrets' Gandhi joke" Why? How can you "regret" something you did? "Remarks called stereotypical, racially insensitive" How so? Why? "Wednesday, January 7, 2004 Posted: 11:42 AM EST (1642 GMT) Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton speaks Saturday at a fund-raiser for Senate candidate Nancy Farmer, right. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Story Tools -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ VIDEO U.S. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton apologizes for joking remarks she made about Mahatma Gandhi. (January 7) PLAY VIDEO RELATED • Poll: Bush, Hillary Clinton most admired by Americans SPECIAL REPORT • Who's in, Who's out • The Issues • The Money • The Polls • Primary Explainer • Timeline • Special Report YOUR E-MAIL ALERTS Hillary Rodham Clinton Mohandas K. Gandhi Nancy Farmer Elections or Create your own Manage alerts | What is this? ST. LOUIS, Missouri (AP) -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton apologized for joking that Mahatma Gandhi used to run a gas station in St. Louis, saying it was "a lame attempt at humor." " If it was meant to be humor, why should she have to apologise? "The New York Democrat made the remark at a fund-raiser Saturday. During an event here for Senate candidate Nancy Farmer, Clinton introduced a quote from Gandhi by saying, "He ran a gas station down in St. Louis." " HOW is that the least bit "racist"? It was so clearly a joke! People make comments like that all the time--and if 200 people laughed, it's not a "poor attempt" at humor; it's a pretty damn successful one! What was wrong with what Hillary said? It'd be similar to someone on the news saying something like, "oh, and some guy named Saddam Hussein was captured today, whoever he is," or "some little-known singer named Britney Spears got an annullment today." It's *obviously* understatement, because anyone who *doesn't* know Spears or Saddam, or Ghandi's accomplishments must have been on Mars for the last 80 years. BTW, given the fact that the article mentions "racism" against Indians, it appears that *my* definition of racism holds, even according to the AP. "After laughter from many in the crowd of at least 200 subsided, the former first lady continued, "No, Mahatma Gandhi was a great leader of the 20th century." In a nod to Farmer's underdog status against Republican Sen. Kit Bond, Clinton quoted the Indian independence leader as saying: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." " Oh, so she hates Indians, but she's still quoting one for an inspirational message? Right! "The director of a U.S. center devoted to Gandhi's teachings called the remarks stereotypical and racially insensitive, while an educator said the flap underscored the need for politicians to be cautious when trying to get laughs. " If she wanted to be stereotypical against Indians, she would have said, "Ghandi ran a Quik-E-Mart." But, still, given the context, even *that* wouldn't have been racist. ""Political speeches can't be like episodes of The Simpsons," said David Robertson, a University of Missouri-St. Louis political science professor. " Why not? Because politicians have to be fake and phoney? Props to Hillary for having the balls to say something *entertaining* and *real*! f.ck her for recanting it! "After being approached by The Associated Press to clarify the remarks, Clinton suggested in a statement sent late Monday that she never meant to fuel any stereotype -- often used as a comedic punch line -- that certain ethnic groups were synonymous with operating America's gas stations." Yeah, *Hispanics*--not Indians! If she said Ghandi was a "great doctor", now *that would have been stereotypical! Oh, wait...that would have been *true*!! ""I have admired the work and life of Mahatma Gandhi and have spoken publicly about that many times," Clinton said in a two-sentence statement. "I truly regret if a lame attempt at humor suggested otherwise." " It wasn't *lame* and she should stop pretending it is, just to gain popularity! "So does Michelle Naef, administrator of the M.K. Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence, the Memphis, Tennessee-based nonprofit group founded in 1991 by a Gandhi grandson to promote his grandfather's teachings, including nonviolent resistance. While crediting Clinton and her husband, former President Clinton, as long having "supported the Gandhi message," Naef said Saturday's remarks "could be incredibly harmful" in perpetuating racial myths. " Or, Naef, people like *you* could be doing more harm than good, and perpetuating more myths, for the Indian people? *Who* ever associated Indians with gas stations? ""I don't think she was, in any way, trying to demean Mahatma Gandhi," Naef said. "To be generous to her, I would say it was a poor attempt at humor. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but I find it offensive when people use stereotypes in that way." " Which Hillary *clearly* wasn't doing! *You're* the one making it into a stereotype--a stereotype that never even existed before, but will probably remain with Indians now for some time! "To Robertson, the professor, the flap demonstrates the potential peril of when humor by politicians falls flat. " Except, it *didn't* fall flat. ""The more prominent the politician, the more they've taken positions on equality in the past as Mrs. Clinton has, the more this is going to be troubling to some people," he said. "It's understandable that groups want to make sure they're treated with complete respect." " Why can't *Hillary* be respected, by being taken at her word? Only a *moron* would think she was suggesting something else! "When it comes to Hillary Clinton, he said, "there's no reason to think she doesn't admire Gandhi, like so many people do. After all, Gandhi was influential to Martin Luther King Jr., and I know she respects King." " How come the people in this article contradicted themselves left and right? Who writes this bullshit? Where do these racism alarmists come from, and *why* do they think they're helping *end* racism? Comments...? > "Hillary Clinton 'truly regrets' Gandhi joke" > Why? How can you "regret" something you did? For what is a woman, what has she got? If not herself, then she has naught. To say the things she truly feels; And not the words of one who kneels. The record shows I took the blows - And did it my way! Tomcat: >> Why? How can you "regret" something you did? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >The record shows I took the blows - >And did it my way! So, you're *applauding* Hillary for being herself? Well, why'd she "change her mind" then? >Tomcat: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >So, you're *applauding* Hillary for being herself? Well, why'd she "change her >mind" then? The pending Kashmir carve-up, probably. -- Ross Howard > >Tomcat: > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > The pending Kashmir carve-up, probably. Or maybe she's afraid of losing all the motel-owner votes when she runs for reelection. Are we to infer from this, YJ, that you've never done anything you regret? Never apologized? Never resolved to do better? Surely not. So the issue is why Hillary said she regretted *this particular remark*. I think she said she regretted it because she realized that many people might think it a racial slur. This sort of thing part of the exaggerated political correctness that now infects American politics. It's why people apologize (or get disciplined) for using "niggardly," when the derivation of the word is entirely non-racial. Better to be thought someone who stupidly said something borderline racist and regretted it than to be thought someone who maliciously said something borderline racist and defended it. I'm not saying I would have done what Hillary did, either telling the joke or apologizing for it, but that's what I see as going on.  SignatureBob Lieblich Who is typing this on a PC Lieblich: >Are we to infer from this, YJ, that you've never done anything you >regret? Not that I can think of offhand. I would never say or do something just because someone tells me to, so I don't have any reason to ever "take back" anything I say. My opinions often change *over time*, but I'd never "force" myself to change an opinion (or pretend like I changed an opinion) just to make someone else (or, in Hillary's case, a bunch of other people) happy. >Never apologized? You apologize you when do something wrong--not for being blunt. >I think she said she regretted it because she realized >that many people might think it a racial slur. But, *she* knew she didn't mean it as a racial slur. To anyone with common sense, there's *nothing* racial about it. Why should she (or anyone) care about what a small handfull of people who have a hidden agenda pretend to think about her harmless joke? >It's why people apologize (or get disciplined) >for using "niggardly," when the derivation of the word is entirely >non-racial. And *that's ridiculous*! Surely you have to agree with me there. That word has become almost nonexistant because stupid people (or people with an agenda, like Al Sharpton) spread lies about something they know *nothing* about. The fact that people go out of their ways to find racism where it *clearly* doesn't exist is, itself, racist. >Better to be thought someone who stupidly said >something borderline racist and regretted it than to be thought >someone who maliciously said something borderline racist and >defended it. But, *best* just to be honest about it. In Hillary's case, she said something not the least bit racist and intended *no* racism. It's similar to MJ's use of "kike". Even if these people do, genuinely, have racist tendencies deep down, their money/power is the only thing they care about. They'd never do anything to jeopardize that. >I'm not saying I would have done what Hillary did, either telling >the joke or apologizing for it, but that's what I see as going on. But, don't you think that it was likely meant as a compliment towards Ghandi? People say stuff like that *all* the time when introducing people who are so important and influential that *everyone* knows what they represent. Howard: >>So, you're *applauding* Hillary for being herself? Well, why'd she "change >her >>mind" then? > >The pending Kashmir carve-up, probably. So, basically, she *wanted* to offend the country of India, in order to show support for Pakistan? Pathetic! Luckily for her, I don't believe it. >Howard: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >So, basically, she *wanted* to offend the country of India, in order to show >support for Pakistan? Pathetic! Luckily for her, I don't believe it. No, she probably just realised that it's just not a good week to piss off either Indians or Pakistanis. However, I do agree with you that that joke was probably her most -- your word, and the right one -- *real* moment in her entire public life. -- Ross Howard > "Hillary Clinton 'truly regrets' Gandhi joke" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > How so? Why? I agree with you. But getting into pickles is the price you pay for being a politician. Adrian > "Hillary Clinton 'truly regrets' Gandhi joke" > > Why? How can you "regret" something you did? What an odd question! Maybe you can't, but I certainly can, and at intervals do. There's nothing wrong with a touch of humility if it's genuine. [...] > "The New York Democrat made the remark at a fund-raiser Saturday. During an > event here for Senate candidate Nancy Farmer, Clinton introduced a quote from > Gandhi by saying, "He ran a gas station down in St. Louis." " > > HOW is that the least bit "racist"? It was so clearly a joke! [...] I agree that it doesn't seem racist in the least. But not because it was only a joke: jokes can be very nasty indeed, and are often used as camouflage for real aggression. But you know that. There are people who have become over-sensitive on these matters; and there are also people who get a buzz from being holier-than-thou. I'm sure you know that, too. [...] > "Hillary Clinton 'truly regrets' Gandhi joke" > [quoted text clipped - 153 lines] > > Comments...? [207 message, apparently with nothing by "andrew"] I searched the message you quoted from "DE781" <de781@aol.com> for something from you and failed. Did you actually have something to say? Did I miss it? If you did have something to say, why did you hide it in an unpruned, uncritical quote of someone else's stealing of copyrighted work? SignatureMartin Ambuhl > "When it comes to Hillary Clinton, he said, "there's no reason to think she > doesn't admire Gandhi, like so many people do. After all, Gandhi was > influential to Martin Luther King Jr., and I know she respects King." " I.e., I know she wouldn't dare disrespect King, cause if there's one thing worse than disrespecting an Indian leader, it's disrespecting a black--make that an African American--leader. > How come the people in this article contradicted themselves left and right? > Who writes this bullshit? Where do these racism alarmists come from, and *why* > do they think they're helping *end* racism? Some people are just addicted to racism. Their careers are built upon it. Their political power depends on it. > "Hillary Clinton 'truly regrets' Gandhi joke" > > Why? How can you "regret" something you did? Saying you "truly regret" having done something is a way of sounding like you are apologizing without actually admitting any wrongdoing or expressing true remorse. This type of fake apology has become increasingly common in public discourse. In some variants, the fake apology is crafted to deliver an additional insult to the aggrieved party: "We are sorry that some of our listeners may have misunderstood our statement that..." What this really means is, "We are sorry that some of our listeners are too stupid to have understood what we then said as what we now claim we meant." -- Mike Nitabach Nitabach: >> "Hillary Clinton 'truly regrets' Gandhi joke" >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >like you are apologizing without actually admitting any wrongdoing or >expressing true remorse. I know, which makes the whole thing even MORE ridiculous, I think. >What >this really means is, "We are sorry that some of our listeners are >too stupid to have understood what we then said as what we now claim >we meant." Well, in Hillary's case, she should have used the *above* type of mocking-apology, since people who think she meant anything racist are stunod! >Saying you "truly regret" having done something is a way of sounding >like you are apologizing without actually admitting any wrongdoing or >expressing true remorse. Good point. In the 80's some people used to do something similar using a different approach. They would say something quite offensive, and after you took offence they would add 'It was just a joke!'. It was very popular in the office enviroment. Geo > "Hillary Clinton 'truly regrets' Gandhi joke" [...] > "After being approached by The Associated Press to clarify the > remarks, Clinton suggested in a statement sent late Monday that she [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yeah, *Hispanics*--not Indians! Interesting. The "certain ethnic groups" would be Chaldeans and other Middle Easterners around Detroit. Though there are undoubtedly gas stations owned and operated by Hispanics/Latinos and other non-Middle East minorities here, jokes [1] about gas stations and party stores generally feature Arabs. What puzzled me most, then, about Hillary Clinton's "joke" was the reference to Gandhi -- I actually wondered if she thought the name was of Saudi or Chaldean or Iraqi origin... [1] Primarily ethnic slurs, in case you wonder. SignatureMaria Conlon Please send any email to the Hot Mail address. Maria: >What puzzled me most, then, about Hillary Clinton's "joke" was the >reference to Gandhi -- I actually wondered if she thought the name was >of Saudi or Chaldean or Iraqi origin... So, you really thought Hillary meant something racial by it then? Personally, I thought it was her way of saying something like, "There's this little, insiginifacnt guy that lives down the street from me. His name is Ghandi, but I doubt any of you have ever heard of him." I don't know what, exactly, that technique is called in English. But, IMO, all it was was some kind of ironic understatement or something like that. She could have said it about a white guy, a black guy, her husband, or anyone else; and it still would have been a "joke". In whichever case, it's not a very *funny*, "laugh out loud"-type joke''. It's just some sarcasm. If it could be considered "racist" against any group, I'd say it was racist against gas station employees, possibly associating them with "insignificance"; but even *that's* a stretch. She could have used any small-town type job and it would have been the same type of effect. I think people--especially Indians--read *way* too deeply into it and made something "racist" out of something that clearly wasn't; it's just like what Asians did with Abercrombie & Fitch a couple years ago. One last thing: if Hillary had wanted to stereotype Indians, wouldn't she have said something about Ghandi working in 7/11; or, even, something about Ghandi being a doctor. Oh, wait...he was. > Maria: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So, you really thought Hillary meant something racial by it then? [...] Well, no, not really. Not even ethnic. Actually, I thought she was repeating something she didn't understand, thinking it would get a harmless and possibly much-needed laugh. (Not that I think Hillary Clinton is stupid; more that she was trying too hard to be "one of the gang.") Something like that. And please be aware that my initial reaction was based on only part of the story. SignatureMaria Conlon Please send any email to the Hot Mail address. >How can you "regret" something you did? It seems much easier than regretting something you didn't do. -- Richard SignatureSpam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers. FreeBSD rules! Richard: >It seems much easier than regretting something you didn't do. You can't "regret" an opinion. At least not if you're "real". If this joke has taught me *anything* about Billary it's that: 1. she don't have a sense of yoo-mur. 2. she fake. 3. she stupid. |
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