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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2008I say, ...
Hello, Is the exclamation "I say, ..." used in AmE also? I thought of it as mainly BrE. Perhaps the character is British, not sure yet. ---- I say, Pugnas--what's that you're reading now, old fellow? Pynchon, Against the Day, p. 5 ---- Thanks. Marius Hancu >Hello, > >Is the exclamation "I say, ..." >used in AmE also? Not really. >I thought of it as mainly BrE. Perhaps the character is British, not >sure yet. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Pynchon, Against the Day, p. 5 >----  SignatureJohn > >Is the exclamation "I say, ..." > >used in AmE also? > > Not really. Thank you all. Marius Hancu > >Is the exclamation "I say, ..." > >used in AmE also? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > >Pynchon, Against the Day, p. 5 "I say" is part of the "stage British" that Americans use, or used to use, to show that a character was from the UK. "I say, I say, jolly good show, what? Pip, pip, cheerio." What's interesting is that nearly the symmetrical opposite is also true -- British writers have been known to make American characters start nearly every sentence with "Say..." to show they were American. Which as a characterization may have been true, at least for the early 20th century. It's a hard to think to google up evidence for, though, "say" being so common and used various ways... Expanding the search term to "Say did you ever" (which catches the note of surprise and discovery) turns up things in Google Books like: Mary Mapes Dodge - 1895 Say, did you ever see a game of base-ball before ? Honest, now! 1903 Their blamed tepid water will drive me to drink, although I'm a temperance man. Say. did you ever see so much drunkenness in your life? ... 1908 Say, did you ever see a bad field of corn? I don't know where to find the mock-American use; these are genuine (AFAIK). Dodge was American, the writer of "Hans Brinker." While searching for that, I found two that appear to be Americans saying "I say" (with the same meaning), but there were far more saying "I dare say," "I mean to say," "that is to say," and the like. So I'm not sure that the American "Say" is a clipping of "I say," it may have come from some other source. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > What's interesting is that nearly the symmetrical opposite is also true > -- British writers have been known to make American characters start > nearly every sentence with "Say..." to show they were American. Which as > a characterization may have been true, at least for the early 20th > century. Thank you all. Marius Hancu > "I say" is part of the "stage British" that Americans use, or used to > use, to show that a character was from the UK. "I say, I say, jolly [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Mary Mapes Dodge - 1895 > Say, did you ever see a game of base-ball before ? What a swell party this is. -- > > >Is the exclamation "I say, ..." > > >used in AmE also? [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > that the American "Say" is a clipping of "I say," it may have come from > some other source. I think there are differences in the way all these are used. The Foghorn Leghorn/southerner "I say" is a simply verbal tic linking repetitions of a phrase. A form of stammering, in a way. The AmE "Say..." at the start of a sentence is a way of introducing a question which will require a response (cf. "Oh say, can you see, by the dawn's early light..."). The BrE "I say!" is merely an attention grabber (i.e."Hey you, listen to me, I'm going to announce something"). Mike M > I think there are differences in the way all these are used. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > question which will require a response (cf. "Oh say, can you see, by > the dawn's early light..."). I believe I misled you in my choice of quotations. As I said, "say" is a common word and it was not easy to call up search terms that would produce a good sample. I happened to hit on "say did you ever" because I knew that would get results, and it did. That form is a question, but it doesn't mean that "say" only introduces questions. It is definitely untrue that this "say" means "tell me something, speak to me." As would, for example, "Say my name." Your dragging in the Francis Scott Key poem muddies the waters -- whatever was meant there, is was not the slangy sentence-starting exclamation "Say" that was under discussion. I went back to Google Books and tried a few combinations to produce sentences starting with "say". What worked well was "say that's": 1902 - "Oh, say, that's nonsense! 1905 - Say, that's a trick. I can do it myself. 1907 - That's just what we want. Say, that's great! 1914 - "Say, that's really funny. 1914 "say, that's some stuff, say, ... if I was a drinking man I could ... Say, that's great.. 1919 -- Say, that's some kid! 1920 - Say, that's a fine bar > The BrE "I say!" is merely an attention grabber (i.e."Hey you, listen > to me, I'm going to announce something"). The American one is part of my own vocabulary, though I don't use it much. It's more subtle than "Pay attention," it also conveys something like "I just made a discovery" or "I just thought of something important." SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > I think there are differences in the way all these are used. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The BrE "I say!" is merely an attention grabber (i.e."Hey you, listen > to me, I'm going to announce something"). But in the past it was used as an exclamation of horror. SignatureRob Bannister > > I think there are differences in the way all these are used. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > But in the past it was used as an exclamation of horror. I have a recollection, right or wrong, of hearing "I say" used by a Ukonian as a way to react to an offensive remark someone has made. Sort of a concise way of conveying a thought like, "Now see here! I won't stand for that! Apologize to the lady immediately or you'll be sorry". P G Wodehouse tried to use "Say" starting remarks in the speech of his American characters, but it usually didn't ring true. Not to me anyway. He had them starting every other sentence with "Say". I've never heard an American do that. ... } P G Wodehouse tried to use "Say" starting remarks in the } speech of his American characters, but it usually didn't } ring true. Not to me anyway. He had them starting every } other sentence with "Say". I've never heard an American do } that. Sparky is correct as usual: we don't say "say" [ALINTCIFW]; we sing "say". But we yell "O" first (especially in Baltimore). Signaturerjv In article <404c040d-feea-49c1-bd21-dc653b0c0e89 @z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, mikmooney@googlemail.com says... > The BrE "I say!" is merely an attention grabber (i.e."Hey you, listen > to me, I'm going to announce something"). Or, in cricket, "look at that!". SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>Hello, >> >>Is the exclamation "I say, ..." >>used in AmE also? > >Not really. Foghorn Leghorn: "That's what I've been - I say, that's what I've been telling you, boy! I am a chicken!" SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > >>Is the exclamation "I say, ..." used in AmE also? > > > >Not really. > > Foghorn Leghorn: "That's what I've been - I say, that's what I've been > telling you, boy! I am a chicken!" Besides being imaginary, Foghorn Leghorn was a parody of *another* imaginary comic character, Senator Claghorn. Wikipedia says: Senator Beauregard Claghorn was a popular radio character on the "Allen's Alley" segment of The Fred Allen Show beginning in 1945. ... Senator Claghorn-- -portrayed by Allen's announcer, Kenny Delmar---was a blustery Southern politician whose home was usually the first at which Allen would knock. Claghorn would typically answer the door with, "Somebody, ah say, somebody knocked! Claghorn's the name, Senator Claghorn, that is. I'm from the south." I see there was a movie spin-off, "It's a Joke, Son!" (1947). SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> >>Is the exclamation "I say, ..." used in AmE also? >> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >I see there was a movie spin-off, "It's a Joke, Son!" (1947). Okay, but parody must reflect reality to be any good. It surely suggests, ah say, surely suggests a usage in the south at some time. So I suppose we could conclude that the exclamation "I say" _was_ used in AmE. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>> >>Is the exclamation "I say, ..." used in AmE also? >>> > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > So I suppose we could conclude that the exclamation "I say" _was_ used > in AmE. I already posted a link to the lyrics for Stan Freberg's _Yellow Rose of Texas in the "Gratitude" thread (wrt "I appreciate it"), but a Southern "I say" shows up there, too: (THE SONG IS OVER BUT THE SNARE DRUM CONTINUES TO PLAY) FREBERG: Cut it off there. The record's over, you idiot. Stop it, stop it I say. Just stop it, stop it. I'm getting out of here (DOOR SLAMMING). He ruined the ending, one of the loveliest parts in the whole (DOOR OPENS, DRUMMER STILL POUNDING AWAY, DOOR SLAMS) piece! http://freberg.westnet.com/text/yellow.html SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Its like grasping the difference 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |between what one usually considers Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a 'difficult' problem, and what |*is* a difficult problem. The day kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |one understands *why* counting all (650)857-7572 |the molecules in the Universe isn't |difficult...there's the leap. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Tina Marie Holmboe > I already posted a link to the lyrics for Stan Freberg's _Yellow Rose > of Texas in the "Gratitude" thread (wrt "I appreciate it"), but a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in the whole (DOOR OPENS, DRUMMER STILL POUNDING AWAY, DOOR SLAMS) > piece! "Stop, stop, stop it I say" sounds very goonish to me. That gets nothing on google, but "stop it stop it I say" [with the quotes] gets me 3510, and an early one on the list is The Great Tuscan Salami Scandal. I think we have a baby idiom here. > >I see there was a movie spin-off, "It's a Joke, Son!" (1947). Dear Mom, No mon, Your son. Dear Lad So Sad Too bad Your Dad > Is the exclamation "I say, ..." > used in AmE also? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Pynchon, Against the Day, p. 5 Yup, I don't know the book, but it sounds like Pynchon, as an American writer, is making a fairly ham-fisted attempt at what he believes to be stereotypical British speech. So the answer is no, 'I say' probably isn't used in AmE, and Pynchon wants to make sure his US readers recognise these characters as pucka Brits. Yawnarama. DC -- >> Is the exclamation "I say, ..." used in AmE also? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > probably isn't used in AmE, and Pynchon wants to make sure his US > readers recognise these characters as pucka Brits. Yawnarama. I say, I say, isn't Foghorn Leghorn American? SignatureSkitt (AmE) This'll cause more confusion than a mouse at a burlesque show. > > Yup, I don't know the book, but it sounds like Pynchon, as an > > American writer, is making a fairly ham-fisted attempt at what he [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I say, I say, isn't Foghorn Leghorn American? Nah, second generation Italian. These days you have to call him Foghorn Livorno. DC -- > > Is the exclamation "I say, ..." > > used in AmE also? I know this is irrelevant, but a small number of Americans (I think I've known two) say "I say" when you ask them to repeat something. "Ijuh." "Pardon?" "I say, it just sucks." Most Americans would use "I said" or simply repeat what they said. (Or rephrase it with simpler words. Those people repeat what they said, but louder, when you say, "I didn't follow that.") > > I thought of it as mainly BrE. Perhaps the character is British, not > > sure yet. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > isn't used in AmE, and Pynchon wants to make sure his US readers > recognise these characters as pucka Brits. Yawnarama. Or accurately showing an American character seriously or jokingly imitating sBs, which strikes me as more Pynchonian. -- Jerry Friedman > > Yup, I don't know the book, but it sounds like Pynchon, as an > > American writer, is making a fairly ham-fisted attempt at what he [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Or accurately showing an American character seriously or jokingly > imitating sBs, which strikes me as more Pynchonian. Ah, right, interesting. Is he any good? I've heard Gravity's Rainbow is hard work. DC -- > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > Yup, I don't know the book, but it sounds like Pynchon, as an [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Ah, right, interesting. Is he any good? I've heard Gravity's Rainbow > is hard work. I loved it. But it's definitely, erm, unconventional. Have any of you lot read "Mason and Dixon"? If so, what do think of my conviction that the two protagonists' personalities and speech patterns were heavily modelled on John Thaw's and Kevin Whately's perfomances as Morse and Lewis? Is this possible? Is "Morse" shown in the US? Mike M > > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > Yup, I don't know the book, but it sounds like Pynchon, as an [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > Ah, right, interesting. Is he any good? I liked /Vinland/ and /Mason & Dixon/. > > I've heard Gravity's Rainbow is hard work. > > I loved it. But it's definitely, erm, unconventional. One of the few books I've ever failed to finish, but getting grossed out was at least at big a reason as the hard work. > Have any of you lot read "Mason and Dixon"? If so, what do think of my > conviction that the two protagonists' personalities and speech > patterns were heavily modelled on John Thaw's and Kevin Whately's > perfomances as Morse and Lewis? > > Is this possible? Is "Morse" shown in the US? I'm pretty sure it is or was. Also, the books are available here-- I've read most of them. But I don't remember M&D well enough to answer your question. -- Jerry Friedman On 29 Jan, 16:09, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Have any of you lot read "Mason and Dixon"? If so, what do think of my > > conviction that the two protagonists' personalities and speech [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I've read most of them. But I don't remember M&D well enough to > answer your question. I've never read any of the books so I couldn't say how close the Thaw/ Whately performances were. But Mason in the book is a grumpy west countryman from an educated background, and Dixon is a self-made Geordie with a chirpy and optimistic (if at times bewildered) manner - very much like the TV characters. Once it had struck me I couldn't visualise them any other way. Mike M |
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