 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Noun on first syllable; verb on second
Is there any concise name for words that are nouns or adjectives when the accent is on the first syllable and verbs when on a later syllable (usually the second, but not always? There are about 100 such words in English. Mike Hardy mjhardy@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote on 10 Jan 2004: > Is there any concise name for words that are nouns > or adjectives when the accent is on the first syllable > and verbs when on a later syllable (usually the second, > but not always? There are about 100 such words in English. You don't happen to have a nice neat list of them, do you?  SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > mjhardy@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote on 10 Jan 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You don't happen to have a nice neat list of them, do you? absent abstract accent addict address admit advert affect affix ally annex array (In some dialects, this word belongs in this list.) attribute combat combine compact compost compound compress commune concert conduct confines conflict conscript console consort construct consult content contest contract contrast converse convert convict "crack down" decrease default defect detail desert digest discard discharge discount dismount "drop out" entrance envelope/envelop escort essay excerpt exempt exploit export extract "fall out" finance "hand out" impact implant import impound incense incline increase insert insult intercept interchange intrigue invite "make up" object overcount overlay overlook perfect permit pervert present proceed produce progress project protest rebel recall recap recess record redress refund refuse regress reject relapse remake research retake retard retract subject survey suspect transform transplant transpose transport undercount unit/unite update uplift upset mjhardy@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote on 10 Jan 2004: >> mjhardy@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote on 10 Jan 2004: >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > transform transplant transpose transport undercount > unit/unite update uplift upset Thank you, Michael. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > mjhardy@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote on 10 Jan 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You don't happen to have a nice neat list of them, do you? Here's one: The following is a list of English words that have the same spelling (homographs) but different accentuation according to their grammatical function. In such pairs the noun usually has the accent on the first syllable, the verb on the second. ABsent (adjective) abSENT (verb) ABstract (noun or adjective) abSTRACT (verb) ACcent (noun) acCENT (verb) ADdress (noun) adDRESS (verb) Adept (noun) aDEPT (adjective) aRITHmetic (noun) arithMETic (adjective) AUgust (noun) auGUST (adjective) COLLect (noun) coLLect (verb) COMmune (noun) comMUNE (verb) COMpound (noun) comPOUND (verb) COMpress (noun) COMpress (verb) CONcert (noun) conCERT (verb) CONduct (noun) conDUCT (verb) CONflict (noun) conFLICT (verb) CONsort (noun) conSORT (verb) conSUMMate (adjective) CONsummate (verb) CONtract (noun) conTRACT (verb) CONtest (noun) conTEST (verb) CONvict (noun) conVICT (verb) CONvoy (noun) conVOY (verb) DEcrease (noun) deCREASE (verb) DEfault (noun) deFAULT (verb) DEScant (noun) desCANT (verb) DESert (noun) deSERT (verb) DEtail (noun) deTAIL (verb) DICtate (noun) dicTATE (verb) DIgest (noun) diGEST (verb) DIScount (noun) disCOUNT (verb) ENvelope (noun) enVELope (verb) EScort (noun) esCOURT (verb) ESSay (noun) eSSAY (verb) EXpert (noun) exPERT (adjective) EXploit (noun) exPLOIT (verb) EXport (noun) exPORT (verb) EXtract (noun) exTRACT (verb) FERment (noun) ferMENT (verb) FREquent (adjective) freQUENT (verb) IMpact (noun) imPACT (verb) IMport (noun) imPORT (verb) IMpress (noun) imPRESS (verb) IMprint (noun) imPRINT (verb) INcense (noun) inCENSE (verb) INcrease (noun) inCREASE (verb) INstinct (noun) inSTINCT (adjective) INsult (noun) inSULT (verb) INterdict (noun) interDICT (verb) INvalid (noun or adjective) inVALid (adjective) MInute (noun) miNUTE (adjective) misCONduct (noun) misconDUCT (verb) NAtal (noun) NAtal (adjective) OBject (noun) obJECT (verb) RECord (noun) reCORD (verb) PERfect (adjective) perFECT (verb) PERfume (noun) perFUME (verb) PERmit (noun) perMIT (verb) PREsent (noun) preSENT (verb) PROduce (noun) proDUCE (verb) PROject (noun) proJECT (verb) REbel (noun) reBEL (verb) REcord (noun) reCORD (verb) REfill (noun) reFILL (verb) REsearch (noun) reSEARCH (verb) SUSpect (noun) susPECT (verb) TRANSport (noun) transPORT (verb) TRANSfer (noun) transFER (verb) http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/lateng.txt Some dialects add "cement" and "police". (Menken gives "cement" without comment.) I'd add "defense", "reject", and "subject". My own dialect uses only the first syllable accent for "accent", "august", "convoy", "consummate", "expert", "natal"; and I don't have "collect" as a noun, "descant" as a verb, "ferment" as an adjective, "instinct" as an adjective, SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There's been so much ado already 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that any further ado would be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |excessive. | Lori Karkosky kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote on 10 Jan 2004: >> mjhardy@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote on 10 Jan 2004: >> [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > have "collect" as a noun, "descant" as a verb, "ferment" as an > adjective, "instinct" as an adjective, Thank you, Evan. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > I don't have "collect" as a noun Hmm... what would you call the short prayer that is usually known by this term? > > I don't have "collect" as a noun > > Hmm... what would you call the short prayer that is usually known by > this term? I'd call it "not in my vocabulary". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Giving money and power to government 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is like giving whiskey and car keys Palo Alto, CA 94304 |to teenage boys. | P.J. O'Rourke kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> > I don't have "collect" as a noun >> >> Hmm... what would you call the short prayer that is usually known by >> this term? > >I'd call it "not in my vocabulary". Not surprising. It's a prayer in the Roman Catholic Mass (and possibly elsewhere). My on-line AHD has this in the *Thesaurus* section: A petition made to an object of worship : prayer, collect, devotion, invocation, orison, rogation. --------------------------------------------------------- Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. SignatureTruly Donovan Lexy Connor mysteries: Chandler's Daughter, Winslow's Wife http://www.trulydonovan.com truly@trulydonovan.com > >> > I don't have "collect" as a noun > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Not surprising. It's a prayer in the Roman Catholic Mass (and possibly > elsewhere). Certainly elsewhere: in the Anglican churches three collects are said or sung at Matins and Evensong, the first specific to the day, the other two unchanging. A collect for the day is also said at the Eucharist (usual C of E term for the Mass). Alan Jones > > >> > I don't have "collect" as a noun > > >> Hmm... what would you call the short prayer that is usually known by > > >> this term? > > >I'd call it "not in my vocabulary". > > Not surprising. It's a prayer in the Roman Catholic Mass (and possibly > > elsewhere). > Certainly elsewhere: in the Anglican churches three collects are said or > sung at Matins and Evensong, the first specific to the day, the other two > unchanging. A collect for the day is also said at the Eucharist (usual C of > E term for the Mass). > Alan Jones It seems possibly worth mentioning that there's a dialectal lay noun* "collect" meaning " place where water collects", and also stated to be a synonym of "sinkhole". I wonder what dialect that might occur in. It's not in mine. I would have thought the word "sink" would be more appropriate than "sinkhole" for a place where water collects. Isn't a sinkhole a place where the ground at the surface has collapsed into a subterranean chamber? Is there another name for that? "Sink" can refer to a place where things collect in a more general sense. An engineer I once worked with found it amusing to identify sources and sinks of paper clips. He found that one desk, a source, would need a continual resupply of paper clips while others, sinks, accumulated them. Some people were continually clipping things together before sending them through the internal mail system, while other people were removing and saving the paper clips before discarding the received packets or portions thereof. * Source _Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Dictionary_ also known as _Webster's Third New International Dictionary_ on CD-ROM. > It seems possibly worth mentioning that there's a dialectal > lay noun* "collect" meaning " place where water collects", [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > surface has collapsed into a subterranean chamber? Is there > another name for that? I would say that a sink or sinkhole would be better defined as a place where water disappears (into the subterranean chamber beneath). Even whole rivers can disappear down sinkholes, to continue flowing underground. Is "karst" the other name you were thinking of? I don't recall seeing "collect" used, but it sounds like it ought to mean something more like a rock hollow which collects rainwater that stays there until it evaporates. If that is the case, then the dictionary's definition might be correct, but equating it to sinkhole looks like an error. > "Sink" can refer to a place where things collect in a more > general sense. An engineer I once worked with found it > amusing to identify sources and sinks of paper clips. He > found that one desk, a source, would need a continual > resupply of paper clips while others, sinks, accumulated > them. I'd still be inclined to stay with the idea of a sink being somewhere that things disappear rather than collect. A person in the office who bends and destroys paperclips would be a sink but not a collector. A kitchen sink is a sink because it's where you pour stuff down the drain to get rid of it, not because it collects anything. A heat sink is for getting rid of heat, not retaining it. I suppose it does gather the heat temporarily, but it is with the aim of radiating it away out of the system. > Some people were continually clipping things together before > sending them through the internal mail system, while other [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > known as _Webster's Third New International Dictionary_ on > CD-ROM. In Australian vernacular, a collect can mean a winning bet. Is that used anywhere else? -- Regards John > > It seems possibly worth mentioning that there's a dialectal > > lay noun* "collect" meaning " place where water collects", [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > dictionary's definition might be correct, but equating it to sinkhole > looks like an error. *The Century Dictionary,* an American dictionary of 1895 at www.century-dictionary.com , does not have the definitions which Bob found for "collect" in Webster's Third. It does have another definition, that of "collection," which it identifies as rare. For "sink" it has the following: [quote] 5. Same as _sink-hole,_ 3.--6. An area (which may sometimes be a lake or pond, and at other times a marsh, or even entirely dry and cov- ered with more or less of various saline com- binations) in which a river or several rivers sink or disappear, because evaporation is in excess of precipitation : as, the _sink_ of the Humboldt river, in the Great Basin. In the interior there are two great systems of drainage, one leading through the Murray River to the sea, the oth- er consisting of salt lakes and _sinks._ _The Atlantic,_ LXIII, 677. [end quote] For the sense of "sink-hole" referenced above, it has the following: [quote] sink-hole [...] 3. One of the cavities formed in limestone re- gions by the removal of the rock through the action of rain or running water, or both. The rock being dissolved away underneath, local sinkings of the surface occur, and these are sometimes wholly or partly filled with water, forming pools. Similar sinkings occur in districts in which rock-salt abounds. Also called _swal- low-hole,_ or simply _sink._ The caves form the natural drains of the country, all the surface draining being at once carried down into them through the innumerable _sink-holes_ which pierce the thin stratum overlying the Carboniferous Limestone. _Nature,_ XLI. 507 [end quote] > > "Sink" can refer to a place where things collect in a more > > general sense. An engineer I once worked with found it [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > In Australian vernacular, a collect can mean a winning bet. Is that used > anywhere else? I thought it interesting that the Century did not have the noun "collectible," but it did have an entry for the adjective: "collectable, collectible [...] Capable of being collected." I see that *Merriam-Webster's Collegiate,* 11th ed., dates the adjective to 1660, and dates the noun (with, in both the adjective and the noun sense, "collectible" being encountered slightly more often than "collectable") to 1953. SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com The noun "collect", meaning a short prayer, is part of the one of the answers in this week's Radio Times crossword :-) SignatureLouisa Essex, England, Europe > > It seems possibly worth mentioning that there's a dialectal > > lay noun* "collect" meaning " place where water collects", > > and also stated to be a synonym of "sinkhole". > > I wonder what dialect that might occur in. It's not in > > mine. > > I would have thought the word "sink" would be more > > appropriate than "sinkhole" for a place where water > > collects. Isn't a sinkhole a place where the ground at the > > surface has collapsed into a subterranean chamber? Is there > > another name for that? > I would say that a sink or sinkhole would be better defined as a place > where water disappears (into the subterranean chamber beneath). Even > whole rivers can disappear down sinkholes, to continue flowing > underground. Is "karst" the other name you were thinking of? No, "karst" is new to me. The word I was trying to think of seems vaguely associated with Florida in my mind. It may have been "pothole", but that doesn't seem to ring quite true. While "karst" seems to refer to the circulation of water after it has gone underground, the word I was looking for would pertain to a surface phenomenon, an abrupt sinking of the ground above a collapse into an underground chamber. The thought is persistent in my mind that some people would call that a sinkhole, although I haven't found support in dictionaries for the thought. > I don't recall seeing "collect" used, but it sounds like it ought to > mean something more like a rock hollow which collects rainwater that > stays there until it evaporates. If that is the case, then the > dictionary's definition might be correct, but equating it to sinkhole > looks like an error. Yes, that sounds right. The equation of "sinkhole" to "collect" seems considerably off the mark. > > "Sink" can refer to a place where things collect in a more > > general sense. An engineer I once worked with found it > > amusing to identify sources and sinks of paper clips. He > > found that one desk, a source, would need a continual > > resupply of paper clips while others, sinks, accumulated > > them. > I'd still be inclined to stay with the idea of a sink being somewhere > that things disappear rather than collect. A person in the office who [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > temporarily, but it is with the aim of radiating it away out of the > system. That, too, all sounds good. I haven't seen that engineer for the past fifty years or so, but if I ever run into him I'll tell him his analogy was faulty unless he could demonstrate that the paper clips disappeared at the sink rather than being reused. That was in a way true of my desk, in that I didn't reuse most of the paper clips, but now and then dumped a handful of them into a container in the supply cabinet on the chance that someone else might want to use them. Even a sink where a river disappears isn't the last page in the water's history. In many cases it will probably go into an aquifer and be recovered to some extent by means of wells. In other cases it will find its way to an ocean and eventually return to the land as rain or snow. By the way, I wonder if anyone has ever estimated how many years it takes for, say, fifty percent of the water in the world's oceans to be recirculated through the evaporation-rain-river mechanism. I also wonder if there is a net loss to outer space of Earth's air and water, and if so how many millions of years it will take for Earth to become another Mars. > > Some people were continually clipping things together before > > sending them through the internal mail system, while other > > people were removing and saving the paper clips before > > discarding the received packets or portions thereof. > > * Source _Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Dictionary_ also > > known as _Webster's Third New International Dictionary_ on > > CD-ROM. > In Australian vernacular, a collect can mean a winning bet. Is that used > anywhere else? > Here's one: [list snipped] > Some dialects add "cement" and "police". (Menken gives "cement" > without comment.) I'd add "defense", "reject", and "subject". My > own dialect uses only the first syllable accent for "accent", > "august", "convoy", "consummate", "expert", "natal"; and I don't > have "collect" as a noun, "descant" as a verb, "ferment" as an > adjective, "instinct" as an adjective, I might add "repair", though I've only heard it used that way in a certain production plant. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >> mjhardy@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote on 10 Jan 2004: >> [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > as a noun, "descant" as a verb, "ferment" as an adjective, "instinct" > as an adjective, In my dialect and, I suspect, a lot of the UK consummate would be distinguished by a change of the last vowel sound; the same with estimate. Adj: con - soo - m@t Verb: con - soo - mate m. > > mjhardy@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote on 10 Jan 2004: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Here's one: [...mercilessly snipped...] > REsearch (noun) reSEARCH (verb) [...] In BrE, the stress falls, "classically", on the the second syllable in both noun and verb; but the pattern you mention is nonetheless now widespread, including among English literature academics. I myself would never say "REsearch". Mike. > Some dialects add "cement" and "police". (Menken gives "cement" > without comment.) I'd add "defense", "reject", and "subject". 'Cement, police, defense' stressed that way definitely are Americanisms, and I'm a little unhappy with the noun use of 'reject', although I've undoubtedly used it with the stress you describe. My own > dialect uses only the first syllable accent for "accent", What about 'accented', eg 'accented syllable'? "august", I think I may vary on this one. > "convoy", I've never heard the second syllable stressed. "consummate", "expert", 'Consummate' is different for me, although I don't use the adjectival form a lot. I've never heard 'expert' stressed on the second syllable - sounds like 'formerly pert'. "natal"; I can't even think how this can be used except as an adjective. I stress the first syllable too. and I don't have "collect" > as a noun, Only for prayers - not a word I would ever use. "descant" as a verb, "ferment" as an adjective, "instinct" > as an adjective, Likewise. SignatureRob Bannister > > My own dialect uses only the first syllable accent for "accent", > > What about 'accented', eg 'accented syllable'? Still first syllable. It moves in "accentuate". > "natal"; > I can't even think how this can be used except as an adjective. I've seen it meaning "relating to the nates", typically in laws prohibiting exposure of the "natal cleft". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The misinformation that passes for 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |gospel wisdom about English usage Palo Alto, CA 94304 |is sometimes astounding. | Merriam-Webster's Dictionary kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | of English Usage (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> "natal"; >>I can't even think how this can be used except as an adjective. > > I've seen it meaning "relating to the nates", typically in laws > prohibiting exposure of the "natal cleft". I'm no wiser. The only time I would stress the second syllable is for that region in South Africa, but I wouldn't consider that to be an English word. SignatureRob Bannister > >> "natal"; > >>I can't even think how this can be used except as an adjective. > > I've seen it meaning "relating to the nates", typically in laws > > prohibiting exposure of the "natal cleft". > > I'm no wiser. Reach behind you and put your hands in your pants. You will encounter two fleshy areas. These are the "nates", pronounced /'neItiz/, otherwise known as "buttocks". If you move your hands toward the midline, you will find that they are separated. This region of separation is the "natal cleft". Lawmakers who don't think they can go on record as saying "Ya can't expose yer butt-crack", satisfy themselves by requiring that the natal cleft be covered. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Theories are not matters of fact, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |they are derived from observing Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fact. If you don't have data, you |don't get good theories. You get kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |theology instead. (650)857-7572 | --John Lawler http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> "natal"; >>>> I can't even think how this can be used except as an adjective. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > expose yer butt-crack", satisfy themselves by requiring that the natal > cleft be covered. Yes, but what is the noun "natal" (apart from a South African province, Natal)? I think that is what Rob was trying to ask. -- Regards John > Yes, but what is the noun "natal" (apart from a South African province, > Natal)? I think that is what Rob was trying to ask. [OED1] Natal [...] B. /sb./ † 1. [...] A birthday-feast. [...] † 2. /pl./ [...] Birthday celebrations. /obs./ [...] This escapes the SOED4=NSOED & SOED5 compass of words active since 1700. SignatureMartin Ambuhl >> Yes, but what is the noun "natal" (apart from a South African >> province, Natal)? I think that is what Rob was trying to ask. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > This escapes the SOED4=NSOED & SOED5 compass of words active since > 1700. ... which reminds me of "reckoning by my natal day" in the Pirates of Penzance, but then we are back to the adjective. I guess the nouns above were probably nounings from the adjective. Nowadays, 'natal' usually appears with ante-, pre- or post- appended: referring to births but not birthdays. Thanks, Martin. -- Regards John John Holmes filted: >>> Yes, but what is the noun "natal" (apart from a South African >>> province, Natal)? I think that is what Rob was trying to ask. > >Nowadays, 'natal' usually appears with ante-, pre- or post- appended: >referring to births but not birthdays. Also with "peri-"...used to see it on a door I passed on the way to the physical therapy clinic....r >>> Yes, but what is the noun "natal" (apart from a South African >>> province, Natal)? I think that is what Rob was trying to ask. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Nowadays, 'natal' usually appears with ante-, pre- or post- appended: >referring to births but not birthdays. The noun is, I believe, derived from "Terra Natalis". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Nowadays, 'natal' usually appears with ante-, pre- or post- appended: > referring to births but not birthdays. "Peri-" as well. I don't think I've heard "antenatal", although I see that Google turns up 136,000 hits to 997,000 for "prenatal". MWCD10 dates both of them to roughly the same time: 1817 for "antenatal" and 1826 for "prenatal". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |holding a gun to somebody's head. Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law. |If you don't pay your taxes, you'll kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine, (650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to |escape from jail, you'll be shot. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke >>Nowadays, 'natal' usually appears with ante-, pre- or post- appended: >>referring to births but not birthdays. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > dates both of them to roughly the same time: 1817 for "antenatal" and > 1826 for "prenatal". "Ante-natal" is the usual term in England for care before the baby is born. After the birth, there's "neo-natal" as well as "peri-natal", and then "post-natal". I have an idea that "neonatal" applies more to the baby than the mother, but I may be wrong. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >> Nowadays, 'natal' usually appears with ante-, pre- or post- appended: >> referring to births but not birthdays. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > dates both of them to roughly the same time: 1817 for "antenatal" and > 1826 for "prenatal". Are abortionists anti-natal? SignatureSkitt (in SF Bay Area) Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps. -- Emo Phillips >Are abortionists anti-natal? They run anti-natal clinics. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>>> "natal"; >>>>> I can't even think how this can be used except as an adjective. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Yes, but what is the noun "natal" (apart from a South African province, >Natal)? I think that is what Rob was trying to ask. The provance is now KwaZulu/Natal, or KZN for short. But the name has nothing to do with buttocks, rather with birth. To me, "natal" is an adjective relating to birth. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > The provance is now KwaZulu/Natal, or KZN for short. But the name has nothing > to do with buttocks, rather with birth. > > To me, "natal" is an adjective relating to birth. But, the English word 'natal' rhymes with 'fatal'. Stress on first syllable and an [ej] sound. SignatureRob Bannister >> The provance is now KwaZulu/Natal, or KZN for short. But the name has nothing >> to do with buttocks, rather with birth. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >But, the English word 'natal' rhymes with 'fatal'. Stress on first >syllable and an [ej] sound. So it does. I've just never assocated it with buttocks, though I have heard that there have been some children who believed that babies were born from arseholes. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >Lawmakers who don't think they can go on record as saying "Ya can't >expose yer butt-crack", satisfy themselves by requiring that the natal >cleft be covered. When you first mentioned it, I thought it referred to the anterior cleft, from which birth takes place. Wrong etymology of natal, no doubt. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>I've seen it meaning "relating to the nates", typically in laws >>>prohibiting exposure of the "natal cleft". [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > expose yer butt-crack", satisfy themselves by requiring that the natal > cleft be covered. I suppose I should have looked it up, but one of the things I love about AUE is how I learn new things almost every day. SignatureRob Bannister While it was 10/1/04 1:01 am throughout the UK, Evan Kirshenbaum sprinkled little black dots on a white screen, and they fell thus: <snip> > ADdress (noun) adDRESS (verb) Here in Britain, both are adDRESS. > Adept (noun) aDEPT (adjective) > aRITHmetic (noun) arithMETic (adjective) > AUgust (noun) auGUST (adjective) > COLLect (noun) coLLect (verb) That's unusual. Are there any other words in your dialect where the stress falls on just a consonant? <snip> > DIScount (noun) disCOUNT (verb) In the sense of "ignore", yes. In the sense of "reduce the price of", debatable. <snip> > NAtal (noun) NAtal (adjective) What's the difference between NAtal and NAtal? <snip> > Some dialects add "cement" and "police". (Menken gives "cement" > without comment.) I'd add "defense", <snip> We have "deFENCE", not "defense" over here. And it exists only as a noun. What does it mean as a verb or adjective where you are? Stewart. SignatureMy e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox, aside from its being the unfortunate victim of intensive mail-bombing at the moment. Please keep replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit. > While it was 10/1/04 1:01 am throughout the UK, Evan Kirshenbaum > sprinkled little black dots on a white screen, and they fell thus: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > We have "deFENCE", not "defense" over here. And it exists only as a > noun. What does it mean as a verb or adjective where you are? The noun "defense" is pronounced in AmE with first-syllable stress primarily in sports usage (AHD: "a. Means or tactics used in trying to stop the opposition from scoring. b. The team or those players on the team attempting to stop the opposition from scoring"). The sports usage has also spawned a transitive verb form (AHD: "1. To attempt to stop (the opposition) from scoring. 2. To play defense against (an opponent); guard"). I heard a sportscaster use the verb "defense" in one of the NFL playoff games last weekend, and sure enough, he used second-syllable stress. A recent addition to the paradigm is "embed/imbed", which gained a new sense as a noun during the invasion of Iraq (meaning "a reporter placed with a military unit"). I noted last year that American reporters and newscasters tended to pronounce the verb as [@m 'BEd] and the noun as ['Im bEd] rather than ['Em bEd] (even though the preferred spelling is "embed" rather than "imbed"). http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3E82A060.F8F13D45@midway.uchicago.edu >>While it was 10/1/04 1:01 am throughout the UK, Evan Kirshenbaum >>sprinkled little black dots on a white screen, and they fell thus: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The noun "defense" is pronounced in AmE with first-syllable stress > primarily in sports usage Heard this morning on Australian radio: RESpite (place where you put your old folks away while you go on holiday). Note: the second vowel was 'pite' not 'pit'. Another speaker on the same programme pronounced it REEspite. SignatureRob Bannister > A recent addition to the paradigm is "embed/imbed", which gained a new > sense as a noun during the invasion of Iraq (meaning "a reporter placed > with a military unit"). I noted last year that American reporters and > newscasters tended to pronounce the verb as [@m 'BEd] and the noun as > ['Im bEd] rather than ['Em bEd] (even though the preferred spelling is > "embed" rather than "imbed"). Could be the "pin"/"pen" merger. I'm not sure it is, though, because I don't have the merger and I'd rather say "imbed" than "embed" for the noun as well. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that most of the stress-shifting verb/nouns are based on prefixed Latin verbs, and "in-", not "en-", is the Latin prefix, so the "en-" in "embed" gets the pronunciation of "in-". -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > While it was 10/1/04 1:01 am throughout the UK, Evan Kirshenbaum > sprinkled little black dots on a white screen, and they fell thus: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That's unusual. Are there any other words in your dialect where the > stress falls on just a consonant? Are you addressing me or the people who compiled the list I quoted? > <snip> > > Some dialects add "cement" and "police". (Menken gives "cement" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > We have "deFENCE", not "defense" over here. And it exists only as a > noun. What does it mean as a verb or adjective where you are? As a verb it is again largely confined to sports (and primarily football) and means "defend against". You talk about how well a team "defenses the pass" and such. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A specification which calls for 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |network-wide use of encryption, but Palo Alto, CA 94304 |invokes the Tooth Fairy to handle |key distribution, is a useless kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |farce. (650)857-7572 | Henry Spencer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Is there any concise name for words that are nouns >or adjectives when the accent is on the first syllable >and verbs when on a later syllable (usually the second, >but not always? There are about 100 such words in English. No, there isn't. But you could call the nouns, anyway, 'initial-stress-derived nouns' and linguists, at least, would understand you mean words like 'address' or 'recall'. There's a dialect in the U.S. referred to informally as 'P/U' or 'Police/Umbrella' because in that dialect these nouns (along with 'cigarette', 'insurance', and many others) are stressed on the first syllable to conform with that rule. -John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/disclaimers.html U Michigan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #include disclaimers.h > > Is there any concise name for words that are nouns > >or adjectives when the accent is on the first syllable [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 'initial-stress-derived nouns' and linguists, at least, > would understand you mean words like 'address' or 'recall'. I created the page at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_that_are_nouns_or_adjectives_when_the_accent_ is_on_the_first_syllable_and_verbs_when_on_a_later_syllable> (which has been edited by various other people since then, so I'm not necessarily to blame for anything offensive you find there) and someone sarcastically responded by creating a new page titled <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedia_articles_considered_by_ some_to_have_outlandish_and_ridiculously_long_and_verbose_titles_which_could_eas ily_have_been_shorter_and_much_more_concise_if_anyone_with_half_a_brain_had_take n_a_moment_to_think_about_it_before_they_cre>. Hence my question. -- Mike Hardy >> > Is there any concise name for words that are nouns >> >or adjectives when the accent is on the first syllable >> >and verbs when on a later syllable (usually the second, >> >but not always? There are about 100 such words in English. >> No, there isn't. But you could call the nouns, anyway, >> 'initial-stress-derived nouns' and linguists, at least, >> would understand you mean words like 'address' or 'recall'. > I created the page at ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_that_are_nouns_or_adjectives_when_the_accent_ is_on_the_first_syllable_and_verbs_when_on_a_later_syllable> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >page titled ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedia_articles_considered_by_ some_to_have_outlandish_and_ridiculously_long_and_verbose_titles_which_could_eas ily_have_been_shorter_and_much_more_concise_if_anyone_with_half_a_brain_had_take n_a_moment_to_think_about_it_before_they_cre>. > Hence my question. I see. Well, wikipedia is sort of a dead loss, for that reason, I'm afraid. What is said there about languages and linguistics, for instance, is unreliable and often completely wrong. I gave up after seeing how it works. -John Lawler www.umich.edu/~jlawler Univ of Michigan Linguistics Dept ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Truthful words are not beautiful; beautiful words are not truthful. Good words are not persuasive; persuasive words are not good." -Lao Tzu > I see. Well, wikipedia is sort of a dead loss, for that reason, I'm afraid. > What is said there about languages and linguistics, for instance, is > unreliable and often completely wrong. I gave up after seeing how it works. Hear, hear, Prof. John Lawler! I've been shocked to see (a) reputable AUE posters quoting the wikipedia as if it were some sort of reliable source of information (Hi, [REDACTED]!), and (b) reputable AUE posters indicating that they *participate* in the wikipedia process (Hi, M[EDACTED]!). > > I see. Well, wikipedia is sort of a dead loss, for that reason, I'm afraid. > > What is said there about languages and linguistics, for instance, is > > unreliable and often completely wrong. I gave up after seeing how it works. I sympathize, since even I could see serious problems with some of those articles. I rewrote the one on "grammar" a bit, but it needs professional attention. Instead of giving up, though, one possibility would be for you to assign each student in your classes (at the appropriate level) an article to correct. Seeing mistakes motivates a lot of people, the exercise would be just as good as many other exercises you could have them do, and the result would be more valuable to others than classroom exercises usually are. > Hear, hear, Prof. John Lawler! I've been shocked to see (a) reputable AUE > posters quoting the wikipedia as if it were some sort of reliable source > of information (Hi, [REDACTED]!), and (b) reputable AUE posters indicating > that they *participate* in the wikipedia process (Hi, M[EDACTED]!). "Jerry" with a J. (Yes, I figured out who you meant.) And why is it more disreputable to correct people and get corrected in Wikipedia than here? SignatureJerry Friedman >><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_that_are_nouns_or_adjectives_when_the_accent_ is_on_the_first_syllable_and_verbs_when_on_a_later_syllable> >>(which has been edited by various other people since then, so [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I see. Well, wikipedia is sort of a dead loss, for that reason, I'm afraid. I'm sorry, for what reason? > What is said there about languages and linguistics, for instance, is > unreliable and often completely wrong. I gave up after seeing how it works. Isn't the solution to that problem to correct the misinformation, rather than to give up on it? I've been spending time correcting wrong information in Wikipedia about towns in Massachusetts, such as "Woods Hole is a town in Barnstable County, Massachusetts." (It isn't.) -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > I've been spending time correcting wrong information in Wikipedia about > towns in Massachusetts, such as "Woods Hole is a town in Barnstable > County, Massachusetts." (It isn't.) What's the point, if Joe Schmoe Wise can come along and change it back? You can argue that it's not *likely*, but there's still the question about the point of bothering. There's a correction mechanism, but there's no corrective pressure on the correction mechanism, IYFM. I spent a few hours trying to correct some wikipedia stuff in an area or two where I know probably more than the average person. I gave up because there is so much misinformation, some of it potentially dangerous, that it actually discredits a person to have anything to do with wikipedia. It makes more sense simply to condemn, castigate and mock wikipedia and instead encourage people to get information from other sources. > > I've been spending time correcting wrong information in Wikipedia about > > towns in Massachusetts, such as "Woods Hole is a town in Barnstable [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the point of bothering. There's a correction mechanism, but there's no > corrective pressure on the correction mechanism, IYFM. There's _lots_ of such pressure, in _some_ fields, e.g., of which advance mathematics is one, even if less so in more elementary mathematics. And an amazing degree of civility generally prevails, for an internet forum. -- Mike Hardy > I see. Well, wikipedia is sort of a dead loss, for that reason, > I'm afraid. Good news: you're wrong. Is a.u.e. a "dead loss" because postings are not supposed to be authoritative? _Authoritative_ is NOT what Wikipedia claims to be. > What is said there about languages and linguistics, for > instance, is unreliable and often completely wrong. I gave > up after seeing how it works. I sympathize and agree, EXCEPT FOR THE BOTTOM-LINE CONCLUSION. The lower-level math articles (first-year calculus; perhaps to a lesser extend second-year) are for the most part clumsily written, but I think that will change for reasons I will explain. The more typical ones are sometimes beautifully done and usually compentent if not pedogogically beautiful. Now consider: (1) All it takes is a small number of experts in a field putting a few dozen articles on their watchlists, so that they see all changes done, to raise the standards enormously; because (2) Among the participants, even those who know little are almost always eager to learn and happy to be guided by those who know more. (3) Language may be one of the fields in which (1) (above) has not yet happened. (4) Vandalism is surprisingly rare. When it happens to any article on someone's watchlist, it gets fixed quickly. Even when it doesn't, it is seen by many, because the "recent changes" list and the "new articles" list are watched by dozens of people 24/7. It's really easy to fix because _all_ earlier versions of an article are immediately visible by clicking on "page history". As an example of (2), I think of an article titled "improper integral". Everyone who's had first-year calculus knows this topic; most do not realize it has subtleties involving _conditional_ convergence; someone who did realize this wrote some alarmist hyperbole ("Nothing can be taken for granted about these integrals ...") that was short on hard facts. I and several others eventually stepped in and cleaned up the relative mess. The earlier authors seemed to appreciate that opportunity to learn more; if they were not inclined in that way they wouldn't have been there in the first place. Mike Hardy > > Is there any concise name for words that are nouns > >or adjectives when the accent is on the first syllable [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 'initial-stress-derived nouns' and linguists, at least, > would understand you mean words like 'address' or 'recall'. Thank you. I will probably put this information to practical use. -- Mike Hardy >> Is there any concise name for words that are nouns >>or adjectives when the accent is on the first syllable [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >'initial-stress-derived nouns' and linguists, at least, >would understand you mean words like 'address' or 'recall'. Is "address" really a good example? The in the sense of "a formal speech" I would be surprised to hear the stress on the initial syllable, and in the sense of a description of a location e.g. a postal address, I find either stress pattern unremarkable. I would only pronounce the verb with the stress on the ultimate syllable, but MW11 lists both pronunciations. Richard R. Hershberger |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.