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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Origin of scumbag
Nicholas van Hoogstraten (once described by a British judge as "an emissary of Beelzebub", I believe, which I'm now saving for my tombstone) claimed yesterday in an interview on BBC News 24 that he'd originated the word "scumbag" in the 1960s. NSOED says it's US in origin, but fails to date it. Matti In our last episode, <btoric$9goct$6@ID-103223.news.uni-berlin.de>, the lovely and talented Matti Lamprhey broadcast on alt.usage.english: > Nicholas van Hoogstraten (once described by a British judge as "an > emissary of Beelzebub", I believe, which I'm now saving for my > tombstone) claimed yesterday in an interview on BBC News 24 that he'd > originated the word "scumbag" in the 1960s. NSOED says it's US in > origin, but fails to date it. MWCD11 dates it to 1967. It seems the sort of term that would be in use for some time before it appeared in print, but it could well have been coined by a living person. When the term was already familiar to me as a word for a disagreeable person, I heard someone use it to mean "used condom," and have since heard it in that sense many times. At about that time underground comic character Cheech Wizard (Vaugh Bode) appeared in a large panel illustrating various aspects of Zen including Cheech "wrapped up in a phlegm-bag of self." I don't know whether Bode coined that or if the phrase was common in Amerizen.  SignatureLars Eighner -finger for geek code- eighner@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ "Creative minds have always been known to survive any kind of bad training." --Anna Freud In our last episode, <slrnbvvuts.5as.eighner@pearl.io.com>, the lovely and talented Lars Eighner broadcast on alt.usage.english: > MWCD11 dates it to 1967. But they are wrong. It occurs in _Last Exit to Brooklyn_ (1964) referring to a person: "... and sneered at the ignorant sonofbitchin bartender. The rotten scumbag. ..." Thanks to Amazon.com's new context search feature. SignatureLars Eighner -finger for geek code- eighner@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ People say I'm extravagant because I want to be surrounded by beauty. But tell me, who wants to be surrounded by garbage? --Imelda Marcos > In our last episode, > <slrnbvvuts.5as.eighner@pearl.io.com>, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks to Amazon.com's new context search feature. Cassell's Dictionary of Slang says it's from the 1920s+ in its condom meaning though Partridge's 8th doesn't mention it, nor 'scum' for semen. Cassell provides no cites. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply > I heard someone use it to > mean "used condom," and have since heard it in that sense many times. We used to call those Charles River whitefish. Related question: Where did the insult "pond scum" come from? It was used by Diane on _Cheers_; is it older than that? SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much. >> I heard someone use it to >> mean "used condom," and have since heard it in that sense many times. > >We used to call those Charles River whitefish. A little south of you they were called Long Island White Eels. Brian Wickham > Related question: Where did the insult "pond scum" come from? It was used by > Diane on _Cheers_; is it older than that? Cassell's labels it US campus, and dates it 1980+. Ditto "bathtub scum" and "shower scum." SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> I heard someone use it to >> mean "used condom," and have since heard it in that sense many times. > >We used to call those Charles River whitefish. Makes sense. >Related question: Where did the insult "pond scum" come from? It was used by >Diane on _Cheers_; is it older than that? I wonder if the writer derived it from, or had been thinking of, "lower than whale sh.t at the bottom of the ocean", which must date at least back to the 50s. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net > Nicholas van Hoogstraten (once described by a British judge as "an > emissary of Beelzebub", I believe, which I'm now saving for my > tombstone) claimed yesterday in an interview on BBC News 24 that he'd > originated the word "scumbag" in the 1960s. NSOED says it's US in > origin, but fails to date it. I thought it was US, too. Slang for a condom. I can provide no citation, however. > > Nicholas van Hoogstraten (once described by a British judge as "an > > emissary of Beelzebub", I believe, which I'm now saving for my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I thought it was US, too. Slang for a condom. I can provide no citation, > however. This book had a word-fight between two women, in which any reader got a great education in horrid names for women. I don't have a copy, but my bet is that "scumbag" could be found in it. "Pox sack, pus bag" and many other such containers are listed. (If it wasn't this book, then it was Giles Goat-Boy, but I don't think so.) " The John Barth Info Center > Works > The Sot-Weed Factor The Sot-Weed Factor (1960) 756 pages. Original publisher: Doubleday. Current publisher: Anchor Press. Buy now from Amazon.com. Synopsis This is truly the novel that turned Barth's career around. Those not interested in reading Barth's complete canon should start here. The Sot-Weed Factor is one of the landmark works of Fabulism and Postmodernism, not to mention a screamingly funny book. An imaginative romp through early colonial Maryland with a (partially) fictitious poet named Ebenezer Cooke, Sot-Weed Factor (which means "tobacco salesman") introduces Barth's penchant for fancy wordplay, ontological tricks, historical parody, and existential games. There are echoes of Joseph Campbell's mythical hero track here, though Barth would later claim that this was not intentional. Barth released a revised version of the book in 1967, shaving off some 50 pages of what he considered extraneous material." http://www.dave-edelman.com/barth/sotweed.cfm > This book had a word-fight between two women, in which any reader > got a great education in horrid names for women. I don't have a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > The Sot-Weed Factor (1960) It's searchable at Amazon. Neither "scumbag" nor "scum bag" appears. But then again, neither does "pus" except for Quassapelagh's wound had been lanced with his own knife, drained of pus, washed clean, and dressed with some decoction brewed by the Negro out of various roots and herbs Giles Goat-Boy is, unfortunately, not searchable. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Never attempt to teach a pig to 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |sing; it wastes your time and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |annoys the pig. | Robert Heinlein kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > This book had a word-fight between two women, in which any reader > > got a great education in horrid names for women. I don't have a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Giles Goat-Boy is, unfortunately, not searchable. Ok, I lose my bet about scumbag. But that one paragraph is worth the reading for anyone interested in old-style cussing. [...] > " The John Barth Info Center > Works > The Sot-Weed Factor > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Factor is one of the landmark works of Fabulism and Postmodernism, not to > mention a screamingly funny book. An absolute knockout: I'd urge anybody here who hasn't read it to do so asap. Possibly better than Catch-22, as I thought it better-made. And if it's anybody here who's got my copy, I'd like it back, please. Mike. >Nicholas van Hoogstraten (once described by a British judge as "an >emissary of Beelzebub", I believe, which I'm now saving for my >tombstone) claimed yesterday in an interview on BBC News 24 that he'd >originated the word "scumbag" in the 1960s. NSOED says it's US in >origin, but fails to date it. The files of the Historical Dictionary of American Slang have examples in the 'condom' sense to the 1930s, and referring to a disliked person from 1950 or so. Jesse Sheidlower OED "Jesse Sheidlower" <jester@panix.com> wrote... > >Nicholas van Hoogstraten (once described by a British judge as "an > >emissary of Beelzebub", I believe, which I'm now saving for my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > examples in the 'condom' sense to the 1930s, and referring to > a disliked person from 1950 or so. Thanks, Jesse and others. Van H. was obviously as accurate about that matter as he was about all his past activities, the toerag. Matti >"Jesse Sheidlower" <jester@panix.com> wrote... >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Thanks, Jesse and others. Van H. was obviously as accurate about that >matter as he was about all his past activities, the toerag. Calling an obvious reincarnation of Peter Rachman a toerag is probably libellous. ( http://www.portowebbo.co.uk/nottinghilltv/revealed7rachman.htm ) Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > Calling an obvious reincarnation of Peter Rachman a toerag is probably > libellous. > > ( http://www.portowebbo.co.uk/nottinghilltv/revealed7rachman.htm ) Libellous to toerags, that is. Isn't that the name of a new car, by the way? The Volkswagen Toerag. >>Nicholas van Hoogstraten (once described by a British judge as "an >>emissary of Beelzebub", I believe, which I'm now saving for my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > examples in the 'condom' sense to the 1930s, and referring to > a disliked person from 1950 or so. I trust this is going to make it into OED fairly soon? I find that the earliest citations OED lists so far for the two senses of "scumbag" are 1967 and 1971 respectively. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom >> The files of the Historical Dictionary of American Slang have >> examples in the 'condom' sense to the 1930s, and referring to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >earliest citations OED lists so far for the two senses of "scumbag" are >1967 and 1971 respectively. It's unlikely _scumbag_ would be revised out of order, which would mean "fairly soon" would at least have to be construed to mean "several years", given that we're publishing in late-"N" right now. Jesse Sheidlower OED > Nicholas van Hoogstraten (once described by a British judge as "an > emissary of Beelzebub", I believe, which I'm now saving for my > tombstone) claimed yesterday in an interview on BBC News 24 that he'd > originated the word "scumbag" in the 1960s. Goes to show it's unwise to believe a fraudster. Adrian >Nicholas van Hoogstraten [...] claimed yesterday [...] that he'd >originated the word "scumbag" in the 1960s. I'm prepared to believe that he'd originated it, just not that he'd first used it. |
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