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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Throw a boxing match
What does _throw a boxing match_ mean? Can we say _throw a cricket match_? Thanks a lot! braininvat In our last episode, <btvf8a$qk8$1@thccy25.nthu.edu.tw>, the lovely and talented braininvat@hotmail.com broadcast on alt.usage.english: > What does _throw a boxing match_ mean? To lose deliberately. > Can we say _throw a cricket match_? Surely not cricket! But yes, we could say it if such a thing ever happened in fact or fiction. "Throw a game," "throw a match," --the meaning is always to lose deliberately. Usually the reason for doing such a thing is to favor those who have wagered on the opponent. In games in which money is not at stake, the reason might be to curry favor (as when one throws a tennis match when playing against the boss) or to encourage an opponent (as when one deliberately loses to a child or when a woman lets her boyfriend win a game). > Thanks a lot! > braininvat  SignatureLars Eighner -finger for geek code- eighner@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ If you have to be in a soap opera try not to get the worst role. --Boy George > In our last episode, > <btvf8a$qk8$1@thccy25.nthu.edu.tw>, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Surely not cricket! But yes, we could say it if such a thing > ever happened in fact or fiction. 'If'!? <sniff> As if. See 'Hansie Cronje' at al. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply In our last episode, <bu0ms4$dbt$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, the lovely and talented John Dean broadcast on alt.usage.english: >> In our last episode, >> <btvf8a$qk8$1@thccy25.nthu.edu.tw>, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> Surely not cricket! But yes, we could say it if such a thing >> ever happened in fact or fiction. > 'If'!? <sniff> As if. > See 'Hansie Cronje' at al. Oh well, it is not as if he were really English. SignatureLars Eighner -finger for geek code- eighner@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ One more drink and I'll be under the host. --Dorothy Parker > In our last episode, > <bu0ms4$dbt$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Oh well, it is not as if he were really English. Tell it not in Gath, publish it not in the streets of Askelon; lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph, but English players have been implicated in this kind of thing. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply braininvat@hotmail.com wrote on 13 Jan 2004: > What does _throw a boxing match_ mean? > Can we say _throw a cricket match_? Yes, you can say that. To "throw a match" means to lose a match on purpose. It is usually done because someone match wants to make lots of money by betting heavily on a sure thing. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. >What does _throw a boxing match_ mean? >Can we say _throw a cricket match_? > >Thanks a lot! > >braininvat When you "throw" something in sports, you deliberately lose. I suppose you could throw a cricket match, but it would take much longer. >> ... >> Can we say _throw a cricket match_? > > ... I suppose you could throw a cricket match, but it would take much > longer. And not go quite so far. SignatureGood luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.tripod.com > What does _throw a boxing match_ mean? To lose, intentionally. > Can we say _throw a cricket match_? You can in American English, but cricket matches are talked about more often in British English than in American English, and I don't know if "throw" has this sense in Britain. One can certainly throw a baseball game. Well, _one_ can't, perhaps, but nine can. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom Aaron J. Dinkin filted: >> What does _throw a boxing match_ mean? > >To lose, intentionally. That said, why "throw"?...r >>To lose, intentionally. > That said, why "throw"?...r Throw in the towel (sponge)? >>>To lose, intentionally. > >> That said, why "throw"?...r > >Throw in the towel (sponge)? One cigar is due. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net > >>To lose, intentionally. > > > That said, why "throw"?...r > > Throw in the towel (sponge)? I doubt there's a connection, since the earliest known cites for "throw" in the sense of "lose intentionally" come from horse-racing, not boxing. The OED has an 1868 cite, from Hiram Woodruff's _The Trotting Horse of America_-- the 1871 edition of the book is available online via the Making of America database <http://moa.umdl.umich.edu/>: http://tinyurl.com/3amen (p. 263) Some of those who had lost their money accused Nodine of throwing the race, and threatened him with violence. ... It was, however, very unjust to charge Mr. Nodine with throwing the race. http://tinyurl.com/2uu64 (p. 370) He managed in such a way that people thought he threw the race. ... [H]e would either make the people believe that he threw it, or invent some plausible reason why he was beaten. >> >>To lose, intentionally. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I doubt there's a connection, since the earliest known cites for "throw" >in the sense of "lose intentionally" come from horse-racing, not boxing. Blindly following the years of the various citations in the OED may not be the best plan in this case. How could throwing a contest, an American use of "throw", originate with horse racing? Jockeys don't often fake being thrown from a horse as a way to intentionally lose a horse race. It coming from "throw in the towel", on the other hand, makes perfect sense. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net >>> >>To lose, intentionally. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >horse race. It coming from "throw in the towel", on the other hand, >makes perfect sense. One of the easiest ways for a jockey to throw a race is to throw his weight to the wrong place. The jockey that leans too far to the back or the side disrupts the horse's gait. [ ... ] > One of the easiest ways for a jockey to throw a race is to throw his > weight to the wrong place. The jockey that leans too far to the back > or the side disrupts the horse's gait. Standing up early is another way to throw a race. Here's a famous example of early stand-up (not comedy, dammit, riding a horse) that was found not to be intentional: "Bill Shoemaker left an indelible mark on the history of the Kentucky Derby. He won four during his career, the first aboard Swaps in 1955. In 1986, he became the oldest jockey to ever win the Kentucky Derby aboard Ferdinand, with a ride that many still feel is among the best ever. Shoemaker's most famous Derby might be one he didn't win. In 1957, Shoe was in a tight stretch duel aboard Gallant Man and appeared ready to take the lead when he inadvertently stood up at the sixteenth pole. He quickly realized his mistake, but it was too late to catch Bill Hartack and Iron Liege. Shoemaker was suspended for 15 days for the mistake, but came back a few weeks later to win the Belmont Stakes with Gallant Man." <http://www.derbymuseum.org/museum/memorial.html> SignatureBob Lieblich See why I don't play the horses? > >> >>To lose, intentionally. > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > horse race. It coming from "throw in the towel", on the other hand, > makes perfect sense. I'd agree that it's foolish to put too much emphasis on the OED's cites, but I was drawing conclusions based on a wider survey of the ProQuest and Making of America databases. The cites I gave upthread show that "throw = intentionally lose" was established in racing by 1868, and there are many additional cites on ProQuest for "throwing the race" from the 1870s onwards. But I could only find references to "throwing" boxing matches starting in the 1880s (the era of John L. Sullivan): THE PRIZE RING. Still Much Bold Talk and Not a Fight Yet. The National Police Gazette, Apr 22, 1882. Vol. XL, No. 239, p. 11 In regard to the statement Ryan threw the fight with Sullivan for $10,000 it is absurd. JOHN L'S BLIZZARD. The Downfall of the Famous Slugger. The National Police Gazette, Mar 31, 1888. Vol. LII, No. 550, p. 2 I don't believe that Sullivan threw the fight. No money in the world could induce Sullivan to throw a fight. REFEREE. Kilrain's Fair and Sportsmanlike Attitude in Reference to Sullivan's Challenge. The National Police Gazette, Jan 5, 1889. Vol. LIII, No. 590, p. 11 Lecoy finally went to Barry and told him that many ugly rumors were afloat, all to the effect that he was going to throw the fight. I doubt there's any link here to "throw in the towel", which only dates to 1915, though there might be a connection with the earlier boxing expression "throw up the sponge" (first cite 1860). But I'd still look to horse-racing as the source unless some earlier boxing references turn up. Coop's suggestion that the racing usage might have to do with a jockey throwing his weight so as to disrupt the horse's gait seems plausible to me. > > >> >>To lose, intentionally. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > horse race. It coming from "throw in the towel", on the other hand, > > makes perfect sense. ... > I doubt there's any link here to "throw in the towel", which only dates > to 1915, though there might be a connection with the earlier boxing > expression "throw up the sponge" (first cite 1860). It would be a weird shift in direct object from "throw up the sponge" to "throw the match", though. Also, to throw up the sponge / in the towel is to concede officially. To throw a match is to lose by deliberately performing badly. That would be another weird change. Of course, weird things happen in slang. > But I'd still look > to horse-racing as the source unless some earlier boxing references turn > up. Coop's suggestion that the racing usage might have to do with a > jockey throwing his weight so as to disrupt the horse's gait seems > plausible to me. I always assumed one threw the race, match, etc., to one's opponents. SignatureJerry Friedman > > I doubt there's any link here to "throw in the towel", which only dates > > to 1915, though there might be a connection with the earlier boxing [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > deliberately performing badly. That would be another weird change. > Of course, weird things happen in slang. I agree it would be an odd transformation, but it might have helped that various "throwing" phrases were already in use to refer to abandoning or losing a competition. Also note the card-game expressions "throw in one's hand", "throw up the game", and "throw up one's cards" (with "throw up" extended to mean 'to abandon, relinquish'). > > But I'd still look > > to horse-racing as the source unless some earlier boxing references turn [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I always assumed one threw the race, match, etc., to one's opponents. Yes, that makes much more sense. > > Can we say _throw a cricket match_? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > One can certainly throw a baseball game. Well, _one_ can't, perhaps, > but nine can. One certainly can, especially if one is the pitcher or catcher. I suspect that the star hitter could, as well. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The plural of "anecdote" 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is not "data" Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ On 13 Jan 2004, Aaron J. Dinkin wrote >> What does _throw a boxing match_ mean? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > more often in British English than in American English, and I > don't know if "throw" has this sense in Britain. It does, as far as I know. (At least, I can't think how else one would say "intentionally lost the match".) SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs) > On 13 Jan 2004, Aaron J. Dinkin wrote > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It does, as far as I know. (At least, I can't think how else one would > say "intentionally lost the match".) Take a fall. Gary > > On 13 Jan 2004, Aaron J. Dinkin wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > Take a fall. I was going to say, "take a dive for the short-end money", which of course will only get you a one-way ticket to Palookaville. > > > On 13 Jan 2004, Aaron J. Dinkin wrote > > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I was going to say, "take a dive for the short-end money", which of > course will only get you a one-way ticket to Palookaville. Can you "tank" in British English? SignatureJerry Friedman > On 13 Jan 2004, Aaron J. Dinkin wrote > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It does, as far as I know. (At least, I can't think how else one > would say "intentionally lost the match".) Took a dive. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply >> On 13 Jan 2004, Aaron J. Dinkin wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Took a dive. "Played for Liverpool". -- Ross Howard dinkin@babel.ling.upenn.edu spake thus: > > What does _throw a boxing match_ mean? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > often in British English than in American English, and I don't know if > "throw" has this sense in Britain. Yes. SignatureDavid ===== > What does _throw a boxing match_ mean? > Can we say _throw a cricket match_? > > Thanks a lot! "Throw" in this sense means "lose on purpose," and is mostly used with respect to sports events. It is ordinarily done for the benefit of gamblers, who then share some of their winnings with the players who threw the contest. It is not limited to boxing. One common use in the US is to describe the eight players on the Chicago White Sox team who in 1919 conspired with gamblers to throw the World Series (a baseball event). They have come to be known as "the Black Sox," and the usual description of what they did is "They threw the 1919 World Series." I assume it's possible to throw a cricket match. It is possible to "throw" other events in this same sense. For example, a candidate for office may decide he doesn't want to be elected and then deliberately say and do things that will cost him votes. This has occurred, and it can be, and has been, described as throwing the election. SignatureBob Lieblich Throwing out an answer |
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