indicative+subjunctive

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becky - 13 Jan 2004 15:26 GMT

From http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3869088/

"Now the world has to deal with the possibility thatcome January
2005there could be someone else in the White House, and that
this someone else might be Howard Dean. If it is, *would* we be
in for post-Somalia again, or *would* Dean recognize thatlike it
or notthe United States carries a unique international
responsibility and burden, and *one* it will always be criticized
for shouldering?"

I feel a little uncomfortable with the "would"s in the second
sentence. That is, while the if-subordinate is present tense
indicative, the main clause starting with "would" seems (to me,
anyway) to be in the subjunctive mood. Is it grammatically
correct?

Also, I don't understand what the "one" in the penultimate line
refers to. Apparently there are two possibilities: responsibility
and burden but I can't decide which. It might have to do with the
fact that these two words together take a single indefinite
article, but I'm not sure. Could anyone explain this point?

Thanks!

Becky

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Donna Richoux - 13 Jan 2004 15:44 GMT

> From http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3869088/
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> anyway) to be in the subjunctive mood. Is it grammatically
> correct?

Yes. It's one of those sequence of tenses things.

If we are invited, will you go? (Straightforward, likely)
If we were to be invited, would you go? (Unlikely, imaginary)

The "would" conveys a greater sense of an imaginary situation,
hypotheticalness, unlikelihood.

> Also, I don't understand what the "one" in the penultimate line
> refers to. Apparently there are two possibilities: responsibility
> and burden but I can't decide which. It might have to do with the
> fact that these two words together take a single indefinite
> article, but I'm not sure. Could anyone explain this point?

I would take it that the words "responsibility" and "burden" are two
descriptions of one single thing. Like describing something as being,
simultaneously, a blessing and a curse.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

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becky - 13 Jan 2004 18:11 GMT

> > From http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3869088/
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> If we are invited, will you go? (Straightforward, likely)
> If we were to be invited, would you go? (Unlikely, imaginary)

But the sentence is neither "If it is, will we be..." nor "If it
were, would we be..." My question was, is it all right to start
a sentence with an indicative if cause and then suddenly change
the mood in what follows to the subjunctive? Likewise, are the
following possible?

If we are invited, would you go?
If we were to be invited, will you go?

> > Also, I don't understand what the "one" in the penultimate line
> > refers to. Apparently there are two possibilities: responsibility
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> descriptions of one single thing. Like describing something as being,
> simultaneously, a blessing and a curse.

I see. Thanks!

becky

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Donna Richoux - 13 Jan 2004 19:07 GMT

> > > From http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3869088/
> > >
> > > "Now the world has to deal with the possibility that?come January
> > > 2005?there could be someone else in the White House, and that
> > > this someone else might be Howard Dean. If it is, *would* we be
> > > in for post-Somalia again, or *would* Dean recognize that?

[snip]

> > > I feel a little uncomfortable with the "would"s in the second
> > > sentence. That is, while the if-subordinate is present tense
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> a sentence with an indicative if cause and then suddenly change
> the mood in what follows to the subjunctive?

I see now. There was so much hypothetical set up ("possibility," "could
be," and "might be") that I didn't notice that the actual question began
"If it is."

>Likewise, are the
> following possible?
>
> If we are invited, would you go?
> If we were to be invited, will you go?

They look clumsy in writing, so I wouldn't advise it. They would
probably pass unnoticed in casual conversation, because we say all sorts
of things in daily speech that wouldn't pass a grammar test. "We haven't
been invited yet. If we are, would you go?" sounds quite ordinary,
especially if the speaker is pleading.

But yes, careful writing would match "are" to "will," or "were" to
"would." (This is all US perspective, Britons may differ.)

However, this does bring up matters of nuance. For the journalist up top
to say, "If it were" (A) might sound more formal and lofty in tone than
the usual editorial style, and (B) might signal that journalist thought
this was in the realm of impossibility. To put "is" signals, "This
really could happen."

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

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Adrian Bailey - 14 Jan 2004 16:13 GMT

> From http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3869088/
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> anyway) to be in the subjunctive mood. Is it grammatically
> correct?

It reads okay, but it's a conflation of the [was/were-would] and [is-will]
forms. It reminds me of the polite way people ask "Would you?" instead of
"Will you?" Aaronovitch is English, which might explain it. (btw, I'm a bit
confused by your describing "would" as the subjunctive.)

I don't like the "one" either. Sloppy.

Adrian

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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004

indicative+subjunctive