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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2008Noun discrimination
A bouncy young woman, equipped with the appropriate ID and fundraising stuff, has just been at my door asking if I'd "seen a person with epilepsy before". Quite apart from finding this approach patronising, I did wonder some more about the form of words. We talk about this sort of thing often enough in AUE, but I don't feel we've ever got to the bottom of why "a person with epilepsy" is supposed to be more courteous than "an epileptic". Is it just because it's longer? Do coeliacs feel left out?  SignatureMike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : >A bouncy young woman, equipped with the appropriate ID and fundraising > stuff, has just been at my door asking if I'd "seen a person with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > person with epilepsy" is supposed to be more courteous than "an > epileptic". Is it just because it's longer? Do coeliacs feel left out? The answer, of course, should be, "How on earth should I know?" as most epileptics ... erm, persons with epilepsy ... present no symptoms most of the time. Do you think she actually meant that, or perhaps rather "a person experiencing an epileptic fit"? (Though I guess "fit" is probably non-PC these days too.) Philip Eden > "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > as most epileptics ... erm, persons with epilepsy ... present no > symptoms most of the time. That might be playing right into her hands. She could then have informed Mike that most persons with epilepsy lead perfectly normal lives, as today's medications... Anyway, I've never seen anyone have a seizure, but two people who have told me they have epilepsy that I can remember, and someone else has told me that two of her children do, so I would have answered "yes". > Do you think she actually meant that, > or perhaps rather "a person experiencing an epileptic fit"? (Though > I guess "fit" is probably non-PC these days too.) See above. I can't bring myself to say "seize" for "have a seizure", though. -- Jerry Friedman > > The answer, of course, should be, "How on earth should I know?" > > as most epileptics ... erm, persons with epilepsy ... present no [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > told me they have epilepsy that I can remember, and someone else has > told me that two of her children do, so I would have answered "yes". For two years I worked in a centre for disabled adults, and had to deal with people having fits - and we called them fits - on a daily basis. Favourite moment was taking a group sailing, and having an epileptic lad crewing a dinghy for me have a seizure as we were going about. By a miracle he fell into the boat not out of it. He was wearing a buoyancy aid - they keep you afloat but won't flip you face up. If he'd gone in face down there's a good chance he would have drowned. DC -- >"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >or perhaps rather "a person experiencing an epileptic fit"? (Though >I guess "fit" is probably non-PC these days too.) It has been non-PC for many years. I remember being with my father in a store in the 50s when a person had an epileptic seizure. My father said something about the need to do something to prevent the person from swallowing his tongue because people having a fit often did that. The man's wife took a strip off my father for using the word "fit" saying that dogs have fits and people have seizures. I don't recall my father's exact words in reply, but it was something like "OK, lady, he's having a seizure and you're having a fit." My father always had a short fuse. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida [...] >I remember being with my father in >a store in the 50s when a person had an epileptic seizure. My father >said something about the need to do something to prevent the person >from swallowing his tongue because people having a fit often did that. [...] Just in case anyone reading is not aware, your father was wrong. First aid treatment is to make sure that they are not going to damage themselves where they are, maybe put something soft under their head, but basically, leave them alone to come out of the fit. Then a bit of reassurance as they will be confused when they come out of it. If they don't stop fitting after three minutes, call an ambulance. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Just in case anyone reading is not aware, your father was wrong. I'm sure you are correct, but it was commonly thought in those times that something should be inserted in the mouth to prevent the person from biting or swallowing the tongue. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > I'm sure you are correct, but it was commonly thought in those times > that something should be inserted in the mouth to prevent the person > from biting or swallowing the tongue. Yes, it was. "Swallowing the tongue" is pritnear an anatomical impossibility, but biting the tongue or cheek or choking on something else in the mouth --- such as a dental appliance --- happened from time to time. It was rare, but it happened. However when the outcomes of events with interventions were compared to outcomes of events with no intervention, there was no contest. Many more people were injured by interventions. Now it's: remove hard and sharp objects from the area and leave the victim alone. Of course, prolonged or rapidly occurring seizures are a medical emergency, calling for advanced emergency medical treatment. SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com Countdown: 329 days to go. >>[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > that something should be inserted in the mouth to prevent the person > from biting or swallowing the tongue. I also remember that, but that was before I saw my first epileptic fit. It would be will nigh impossible without causing the sufferer severe damage. The main thing is to move any chairs, tables, etc. that they might hit with their thrashing limbs. SignatureRob Bannister >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >reassurance as they will be confused when they come out of it. If they >don't stop fitting after three minutes, call an ambulance. I think three minutes is rather short. My epileptic friend's unfavorite thing was coming round in an ambulance miles from where she wanted to be. That meant they were committed to taking her to whichever hospital it was, however much she complained. She wasn't offered any help in getting back, either. The problem she experienced in the immediate aftermath of a fit was not feeling confused; it was an inability to speak coherently. She was usually trying desperately to say "I don't need any help; please leave me alone". SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >usually trying desperately to say "I don't need any help; please leave >me alone". Tonic clonic seizures generally last up to three minutes. If you wait three minutes, then call an ambulance *and* the person hasn't woken up until after they've been put in said ambulance then I think the call was well justified. Chances are your friend's ambulance caller called straight away. Most convulsive seizures don't require intervention but I wouldn't be too hard on anyone calling for help if they didn't know that. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>>[...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >convulsive seizures don't require intervention but I wouldn't be too >hard on anyone calling for help if they didn't know that. Once in Belfast, NI, I saw a person lying unconscious on the footpath (sidewalk) with an ambulance close by and the paramedics and bystanders leaning against walls and generally killing time. I went over to inquire and was told that the person was having a seizure and the paramedics were waiting for him to come round. Only then would a decision be made as to whether he needed to be taken to hospital. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >I went over to inquire Typo. I normally use the spelling "enquire" when I mean "ask a question". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > A bouncy young woman, equipped with the appropriate ID and fundraising > stuff, has just been at my door asking if I'd "seen a person with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > person with epilepsy" is supposed to be more courteous than "an > epileptic". Is it just because it's longer? Do coeliacs feel left out? Doesn't it have something to do with attempts to avoid defining their personhood in terms of a single condition that they happen to have? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) Mike Lyle: >> ... I don't feel we've ever got to the bottom of why "a >> person with epilepsy" is supposed to be more courteous than "an >> epileptic". Is it just because it's longer? Do coeliacs feel left out? Laura Spira: > Doesn't it have something to do with attempts to avoid defining their > personhood in terms of a single condition that they happen to have? That's what they *say* (not just epileptics but AIDS victims and others advocating such usage), but I think it's at least as much a political action: if they succeed in changing the way other people speak, they've demonstrated a degree of power and importance. And I say the hell with it. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "The English future is very confusing! msb@vex.net (This is not a political statement.)" > Mike Lyle: >>> ... I don't feel we've ever got to the bottom of why "a >>> person with epilepsy" is supposed to be more courteous than "an >>> epileptic". Is it just because it's longer? Do coeliacs feel >>> left out? > Laura Spira: >> Doesn't it have something to do with attempts to avoid defining >> their personhood in terms of a single condition that they happen >> to have? > That's what they *say* (not just epileptics but AIDS victims and > others advocating such usage), but I think it's at least as much a > political action: if they succeed in changing the way other people > speak, they've demonstrated a degree of power and importance. And > I say the hell with it. Mmm, spinnage. Mark Brader: > > ... And I say the hell with it. C.B. Bellemare: > Mmm, spinnage. (Applause!) SignatureMark Brader "Great things are not done by those Toronto who sit down and count the cost msb@vex.net of every thought and act." --Daniel Gooch On 20 Feb 2008, Mike Lyle wrote > A bouncy young woman, equipped with the appropriate ID and > fundraising stuff, has just been at my door asking if I'd "seen [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > more courteous than "an epileptic". Is it just because it's > longer? I don't think so: I think it's because it attempts to stress that it's a person who has a condition, rather than giving primacy to the condition rather than the person. It used to be particularly common, of course, in medical circles: "We have a case meeting about an epileptic" rather than "We have a case meeting about Fred and his epilepsy". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 20 Feb 2008, Mike Lyle wrote > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >"We have a case meeting about an epileptic" rather than "We have a >case meeting about Fred and his epilepsy". So which should I be least patronised by: Englishman, or man of English birth; rifleman, or man with skill at rifle shooting; lawyer, or person of legal qualification; husband, or male in conjugal bondage; widower, or man bereft of wife; acrobat, or person of gymnasm; paraplegic, or practically legless? Three could be said to be voluntary, and four could be said to be involuntary conditions. Doesn't 'a person with epilepsy' rather suggest someone fitting (as they say), while an epileptic merely suggests someone apt to fit (neat, isn't it?), if the stars happen to line up that way today? SignaturePaul > A bouncy young woman, equipped with the appropriate ID and fundraising > stuff, has just been at my door asking if I'd "seen a person with > epilepsy before". > Quite apart from finding this approach patronising, I did wonder some > more about the form of words. We talk about this sort of thing often > enough in AUE, but I don't feel we've ever got to the bottom of why "a > person with epilepsy" is supposed to be more courteous than "an > epileptic". Is it just because it's longer? Do coeliacs feel left out? The general objection is to nouning an adjective, thereby making the person the disorder, condition, etc. This is so often done when the connotation is negative and so seldom done when the connotation is positive --- you never hear 'He is a brilliant' --- it is difficult to escape the conclusion that depersonalization is intended. SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com Countdown: 334 days to go. > A bouncy young woman, equipped with the appropriate ID and fundraising > stuff, has just been at my door asking if I'd "seen a person with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > person with epilepsy" is supposed to be more courteous than "an > epileptic". Is it just because it's longer? Do coeliacs feel left out? Of course we feel left out. We can't have beer or cakes. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary |
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