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Famous Quote

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TOY - 17 Jan 2004 15:10 GMT
Could anyone explain the following sentence. I think the quote has some
meaning beyond its literal meaning of words.

Before I came here, I was confused about this project. *** Having listened
to your lecture I am still confused, but on a higher level (E. Fermi).
Richard Chambers - 17 Jan 2004 16:01 GMT
> Could anyone explain the following sentence. I think the quote has some
> meaning beyond its literal meaning of words.
>
> Before I came here, I was confused about this project. *** Having listened
> to your lecture I am still confused, but on a higher level (E. Fermi).

This is just a matter of common experience amongst those who have attended
lectures on subjects such as Physics (Fermi's speciality), Molecular
Biology, or Philosophy.

Fermi (a Nobel Prize winner, I believe) must have arrived at the lecture
with some half-formed and simplistic theories in his head. He already
realised that these ideas were simplistic, because he could not adapt them
into something that was totally self-consistent. He hoped that the lecture
would bring some order to his ideas, so that he would at last understand the
subject. Instead, the lecture proved to him that his original simplistic
ideas could not be logically supported, and that he would have to adopt a
new theory. Unfortunately, the new theory offered, while producing better
and more comprehensive scientific explanations than Fermi's original ideas,
still had some loose ends, and still confused him. Alternatively, the
lecturer might have offered no new theory to explain the observations, but
simply showed Fermi good reason why his half-formed theory would never work.

Richard Chambers       Leeds   UK.
Don Phillipson - 17 Jan 2004 18:44 GMT
> > Could anyone explain the following sentence. I think the quote has some
> > meaning beyond its literal meaning of words.
> >
> > Before I came here, I was confused about this project. *** Having listened
> > to your lecture I am still confused, but on a higher level (E. Fermi).

Unfortunately it is not clear whether this is a
quotation of something Fermi.  If so, the point
is ironical.

1.  Fermi was a uniquely knowledgeable genius
i.e. someone we expect never to be confused.
2.  Fermi was also a modest man.  He always
pointed out physics was still full of mysteries.
3.  Fermi was also a polite man, in traditional
European style.

So Fermi came to this lecture uncertain about
its topic.  The lecture failed to provide certainty.
But Fermi pays the lecturer the compliment of
saying that he improved the quality of Fermi's uncertainty.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
Murray Arnow - 17 Jan 2004 22:16 GMT
> > > Could anyone explain the following sentence. I think the quote has some
> > > meaning beyond its literal meaning of words.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> But Fermi pays the lecturer the compliment of
> saying that he improved the quality of Fermi's uncertainty.

What you are describing is a Fermi of legend, BTW a legend I haven't
heard. Now you try this again using the Fermi of fact.
Charles Riggs - 18 Jan 2004 03:48 GMT
<an explanation that answers a question asked earlier>

>What you are describing is a Fermi of legend, BTW a legend I haven't
>heard.

Then you can't call it a legend. By the way, are you too lazy to write
out 'by the way'?

>Now you try this again using the Fermi of fact.

I suggest you try rewriting that sentence in proper English, if you
can manage it.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Murray Arnow - 18 Jan 2004 03:53 GMT
CHANGE@aircom.net wrote:

> <an explanation that answers a question asked earlier>
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Then you can't call it a legend. By the way, are you too lazy to write
> out 'by the way'?

Yes.
> >Now you try this again using the Fermi of fact.
>
> I suggest you try rewriting that sentence in proper English, if you
> can manage it.

Yup, you caught me, Charles. I saw this immediately after posting and
was too lazy to correct it.

And, BTW, skoal.
Richard Chambers - 17 Jan 2004 23:24 GMT
> [ . . . ]
> So Fermi came to this lecture uncertain about
> its topic.  The lecture failed to provide certainty.
> But Fermi pays the lecturer the compliment of
> saying that he improved the quality of Fermi's uncertainty.

From this description, the lecturer might have been Heisenberg. But I'm not
certain about that.

Richard Chambers       Leeds   UK.
R H Draney - 18 Jan 2004 06:20 GMT
Richard Chambers filted:

>> [ . . . ]
>> So Fermi came to this lecture uncertain about
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>From this description, the lecturer might have been Heisenberg. But I'm not
>certain about that.

I'm positive it was Dr Wasserman....r
Donna Richoux - 17 Jan 2004 16:59 GMT
> Could anyone explain the following sentence. I think the quote has some
> meaning beyond its literal meaning of words.
>
> Before I came here, I was confused about this project. *** Having listened
> to your lecture I am still confused, but on a higher level (E. Fermi).

It's hard to imagine what sort of deeper meaning it could have. You do
know who Fermi was, right? That helps.

    Fermi, Enrico US (Italian-born) physicist; Nobel
    Prize in Physics 1938; produced 1st self-sustaining
    nuclear chain reaction; source of word "fermium"
    _1901-1954

Maybe if we knew on what occasion he said this, to whom he was speaking,
then suddenly this would take on a whole new significance. But we don't,
do we? "The Project" quite likely refers to the development of the atom
bomb, but it doesn't have to. The line it stands along quite well,
without any more info.

Anyone could walk into a lecture confused on a subject; during the
lecture, they could get those questions answered, but then become
confused about a whole new set of things. It sounds amusing to hear this
described as being confused "on a higher level." There's a kind of
tension there over whether that is *good* or not.

Just possibly he is referring to moving from technical concerns to moral
concerns, over the atom bomb.

Do you know, a lot of documentation on all these people is on-line. If
it was written in a letter, not just a quip recorded by someone, you can
quite possibly find the entire thing.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Michael Nitabach - 17 Jan 2004 17:06 GMT
trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote in news:1g7pt4y.19ourfeftz5vkN%
trio@euronet.nl:

> The line it stands along quite well,
> without any more info.

Huh?

--
Mike Nitabach
Donna Richoux - 17 Jan 2004 18:39 GMT
> trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote in news:1g7pt4y.19ourfeftz5vkN%
> trio@euronet.nl:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Huh?

Sorry, typo, and an extra word. "The line stands alone..."

Signature

The cheese stands alone -- Donna Richoux

J. J. Lodder - 18 Jan 2004 00:01 GMT
> > Could anyone explain the following sentence. I think the quote has some
> > meaning beyond its literal meaning of words.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>      nuclear chain reaction; source of word "fermium"
>      _1901-1954

And even better: he has the 'fermions' named after him,
An honour shared only with Bose.

And Fermium is more than a word,
it's a chemical element,

Jan
Evan Kirshenbaum - 17 Jan 2004 22:16 GMT
> Could anyone explain the following sentence. I think the quote has some
> meaning beyond its literal meaning of words.
>
> Before I came here, I was confused about this project. *** Having listened
> to your lecture I am still confused, but on a higher level (E. Fermi).

I'd want to see some context.  In addition to the explanations others
have proffered, I could see it meaning

  When I came in, I had technical questions about what you were
  doing.  Having listened to your lecture, it's now unclear to me
  *why* you're doing it.

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J. J. Lodder - 18 Jan 2004 00:01 GMT
> Could anyone explain the following sentence. I think the quote has some
> meaning beyond its literal meaning of words.
>
> Before I came here, I was confused about this project. *** Having listened
> to your lecture I am still confused, but on a higher level (E. Fermi).

Some context would be helpful.
My guess: before coming Fermi didn't understand what the project was
about. Aftyer hearing the explanations he understood the technicalities,
but the whole project didn't make sense to him.

It might have been a nonsense project
conducted in a technically correct way, for example.

Again: Just guessing,

Jan
Murray Arnow - 18 Jan 2004 00:22 GMT
jjlxa21@xs4all.nl wrote:

> > Could anyone explain the following sentence. I think the quote has some
> > meaning beyond its literal meaning of words.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Again: Just guessing,

But it does sound uncharacteristical for Fermi. Fermi's ego was nearly
as legendary as he was. When I was at the University of Chicago, Fermi
stories abounded and none resembled the above quotation. Before we get
into any misunderstanding about Fermi, I confess that Fermi may be my
most admired 20th Century physicist.
Donna Richoux - 18 Jan 2004 00:55 GMT
> jjlxa21@xs4all.nl wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> into any misunderstanding about Fermi, I confess that Fermi may be my
> most admired 20th Century physicist.

I don't find any full citation for it (lots of people copy it exactly as
TOY has it) but an article in Harvard Magazine says it was credited to
Fermi in "Alan L. Mackay's A Dictionary of Scientific Quotations
(1991)." Maybe someone has access to that for the precise details.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Ben Zimmer - 18 Jan 2004 06:13 GMT
> > > > Could anyone explain the following sentence. I think the quote has some
> > > > meaning beyond its literal meaning of words.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Fermi in "Alan L. Mackay's A Dictionary of Scientific Quotations
> (1991)." Maybe someone has access to that for the precise details.

I don't, but here are two more variations on the theme:

"We start off confused and end up confused on a higher level."
-- Alan Chalmers, Introduction to _What Is This Thing Called Science?_
  (Queensland University Press and Open University Press, 1976)

"We have not succeeded in solving all of your problems. The answers
we have found only serve to raise a whole new set of questions. In
some ways we are as confused as ever, but we feel that we are confused
on a higher level and about more important things."
-- Xeroxlore circulated before 1982
  http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bnews.yale-com.519
Charles Riggs - 18 Jan 2004 03:48 GMT
>Before we get
>into any misunderstanding about Fermi, I confess that Fermi may be my
>most admired 20th Century physicist.

Good grief, can't an AUE member do any better? The above could win a
prize for being the poorest sentence of the new year. Try, my dear
fellow:

'In case there is some misunderstanding over how I feel about Fermi,
I'd like to say he may be the 20th century physicist I admire most.'

That's one possibility of many for saying what you were struggling to
say.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

J. J. Lodder - 18 Jan 2004 09:53 GMT
> jjlxa21@xs4all.nl wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> But it does sound uncharacteristical for Fermi. Fermi's ego was nearly
> as legendary as he was.

Some anecdotes say otherwise.
For example, Gamov tells us that when Mussolini
elevated Fermi to the no doubt exalted rank of an 'Exccellenza'
Fermi presented himself as 'the driver of Exccellenza Fermi"

> When I was at the University of Chicago, Fermi
> stories abounded and none resembled the above quotation. Before we get
> into any misunderstanding about Fermi, I confess that Fermi may be my
> most admired 20th Century physicist.

It appears to have escaped you
that Fermi may well have been ironic here.
If the circumstances were right
it could even have been an insult.

Jan
Colin Rosenthal - 18 Jan 2004 16:11 GMT
> > When I was at the University of Chicago, Fermi
> > stories abounded and none resembled the above quotation. Before we get
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> If the circumstances were right
> it could even have been an insult.

As a physicist myself I've always interpreted the story as a high
compliment to the lecturer - a suggestion that he has both successfully
explained away the things which were initially confusing to Fermi and
also raised new and more fundamental questions.

Perhaps the  most devastating _insult_ to a speaker at a colloquim was
"this is so bad it isn't even wrong". I think Pauli might have been
responsible for that one, unless it was Fermi again.

--
Colin
Murray Arnow - 18 Jan 2004 16:15 GMT
> > > When I was at the University of Chicago, Fermi
> > > stories abounded and none resembled the above quotation. Before we get
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> "this is so bad it isn't even wrong". I think Pauli might have been
> responsible for that one, unless it was Fermi again.

That would be a very characteristic response from Pauli. When the
quotation first appeared here, I thought it was a Pauliism.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 18 Jan 2004 19:14 GMT
> > Perhaps the most devastating _insult_ to a speaker at a colloquim
> > was "this is so bad it isn't even wrong". I think Pauli might have
> > been responsible for that one, unless it was Fermi again.
>
> That would be a very characteristic response from Pauli. When the
> quotation first appeared here, I thought it was a Pauliism.

I've typically seen it as "This isn't right.  It isn't even wrong".
It seems to be typically attributed to Pauli, although at least one
site attributes it to Dirac.  It's said to have been a comment on a
paper rather than directed to a speaker.

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Murray Arnow - 18 Jan 2004 19:32 GMT
> > > Perhaps the most devastating _insult_ to a speaker at a colloquim
> > > was "this is so bad it isn't even wrong". I think Pauli might have
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> site attributes it to Dirac.  It's said to have been a comment on a
> paper rather than directed to a speaker.

Pauli is known to have derisively criticized a lecture by Dyson in
Dyson's presence. When reminded that Dyson could hear him, Pauli said it
was ok because Dyson didn't understand German.
J. J. Lodder - 18 Jan 2004 23:33 GMT
> > > > Perhaps the most devastating _insult_ to a speaker at a colloquim
> > > > was "this is so bad it isn't even wrong". I think Pauli might have
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Dyson's presence. When reminded that Dyson could hear him, Pauli said it
> was ok because Dyson didn't understand German.

That's nothing yet, if it was only derision.
Pauli was a disaster to have in the audience for (almost) any speaker.
He couldn't sit without making a pronounced never ending pendulum
motion, would audibly comment to neigbours 'aber das ist -falsch-!',
usually followed by 'sogar -ganz- falsch!'
He also often jumped up, and moved to the blackboard
to explain to the speaker how 'falsch' he was.

It often ended with Pauli lecturing the audience
about what the speaker should have been telling them
in the first place. (according to Pauli of course)

But we are getting off-topic,

Jan

PS Feynman however notes that Pauli was quite friendly
at F's PhD defense, and after the talk.
Murray Arnow - 19 Jan 2004 02:12 GMT
> > Pauli is known to have derisively criticized a lecture by Dyson in
> > Dyson's presence. When reminded that Dyson could hear him, Pauli said it
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> about what the speaker should have been telling them
> in the first place. (according to Pauli of course)

Sometimes Pauli's lectures had disastrous moments, too. A colleague took
a course taught by Pauli. In one of his lectures, Pauli attempted to
write the Schroedinger equation. He noticed it was wrong and corrected
it. He then noticed an error in the correction and corrected it once
again. Well, that correction was still wrong and the cycle repeated one
or two more times. The astonished students were treated to the spectacle
of Pauli requesting assistance from the audience.

I guess, we all can have bad days.

> But we are getting off-topic,

Sure we are, but who cares, I'm enjoying it. Those who aren't interested
can always toss it off as thread drift and depart.

> Jan
>
> PS Feynman however notes that Pauli was quite friendly
> at F's PhD defense, and after the talk.

That reminds of a story about Telegdi who demolished a thesis defense
before the candidate spoke a word, but that's really drifting off topic.
Dr Robin Bignall - 19 Jan 2004 13:39 GMT
>PS Feynman however notes that Pauli was quite friendly
>at F's PhD defense, and after the talk.

Feynman was pretty much a genius himself, and I suspect that he knew his
stuff, even as a PhD candidate.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

J. J. Lodder - 19 Jan 2004 22:32 GMT
> >PS Feynman however notes that Pauli was quite friendly
> >at F's PhD defense, and after the talk.
>
> Feynman was pretty much a genius himself, and I suspect that he knew his
> stuff, even as a PhD candidate.

Of course. Most PhD students do.
And genius is a romantic myth invented after the fact.

Feynman, Pauli, and others certainly weren't worrying
about who might be a genius (whatever that may be) or not.

They just wanted to hear a talk that made sense,

Jan

Michael Nitabach - 20 Jan 2004 00:05 GMT
>> >PS Feynman however notes that Pauli was quite friendly
>> >at F's PhD defense, and after the talk.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Of course. Most PhD students do.

This is debatable.

> And genius is a romantic myth invented after the fact.

In some cases, maybe. But there are those who are so obviously
thinking at a higher level than their peers that they are
contemporaneously recognized as geniuses. Some who knew them have said
this of Feynman and Pauli.

> Feynman, Pauli, and others certainly weren't worrying
> about who might be a genius (whatever that may be) or not.

Academics--and particularly graduate students--spend a lot of time
thinking and talking about how their respective intellects measure up.
This behavior is analogous to comparing "equipment" in the boys'
locker room in junior high, and similarly ubiquitous.

> They just wanted to hear a talk that made sense,

I'm sure they did want to hear a talk that made sense, but don't make
the mistake of thinking that there isn't also a great deal of
posturing that goes on during any academic seminar.

Signature

Mike Nitabach

Dr Robin Bignall - 20 Jan 2004 17:56 GMT
>>> >PS Feynman however notes that Pauli was quite friendly
>>> >at F's PhD defense, and after the talk.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>This is debatable.

Some of those who apparently don't are the ones who find it difficult to
get up on their back legs and present their work to others. I found this at
university and, particularly, in IBM when there was quite a transfer of
technically-oriented (and clever) systems engineers to sales just before
System/370 was announced back in 1970. Some of the most technically bright
people I knew simply became speechless when asked to talk about their
research at university, even just in front of colleagues and the tutor.
Sales school in IBM (based on the XEROX sales training methodology) was a
nightmare for some of them, particularly the mock sales calls, objection
handling and closing techniques. I passed, but found that it tested skills
that did not come naturally to me at the time. I personally found it far
more difficult than getting a PhD.

>> And genius is a romantic myth invented after the fact.
>
>In some cases, maybe. But there are those who are so obviously
>thinking at a higher level than their peers that they are
>contemporaneously recognized as geniuses. Some who knew them have said
>this of Feynman and Pauli.

I never met Feynman, but his work was part of my physics degree course. I
thought that his explanation of why a single electron can show diffraction
patterns in the classic "double slit" experiment, by summing up the
probabilities over all of its infinite pathways, was pure genius.

Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar did his fantastic work on white dwarfs during
the boat trip when he emigrated from India to America in the 1930s. Genius
too, IMHO.

http://chandra.harvard.edu/about/chandra.html

>> Feynman, Pauli, and others certainly weren't worrying
>> about who might be a genius (whatever that may be) or not.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>the mistake of thinking that there isn't also a great deal of
>posturing that goes on during any academic seminar.

Can't argue with either of these final paragraphs. I'd say that it applies
to graduates anywhere, and seminars in business as well as academia.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Murray Arnow - 20 Jan 2004 20:16 GMT
> Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar did his fantastic work on white dwarfs during
> the boat trip when he emigrated from India to America in the 1930s. Genius
> too, IMHO.
>
> http://chandra.harvard.edu/about/chandra.html
>  

Chandra may have been a genius, but after taking two courses from him, I
will attest to him delivering some piss-poor lecturers.
Ross Howard - 20 Jan 2004 23:12 GMT
>> Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar did his fantastic work on white dwarfs during
>> the boat trip when he emigrated from India to America in the 1930s. Genius
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Chandra may have been a genius, but after taking two courses from him, I
>will attest to him delivering some piss-poor lecturers.

By Caesarian section?

--
Ross Howard
Murray Arnow - 21 Jan 2004 00:25 GMT
> >> Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar did his fantastic work on white dwarfs during
> >> the boat trip when he emigrated from India to America in the 1930s. Genius
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> By Caesarian section?

There's my major reason for X-No-Archive.
Dr Robin Bignall - 20 Jan 2004 23:36 GMT
>> Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar did his fantastic work on white dwarfs during
>> the boat trip when he emigrated from India to America in the 1930s. Genius
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Chandra may have been a genius, but after taking two courses from him, I
>will attest to him delivering some piss-poor lecturers.

That is often the case - the very best researchers being lousy lecturers.
That's why KISS[1] guys like me get employed.

[1] Keep It Simple, Stupid.

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wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

J. J. Lodder - 21 Jan 2004 00:01 GMT
> >In some cases, maybe. But there are those who are so obviously
> >thinking at a higher level than their peers that they are
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> patterns in the classic "double slit" experiment, by summing up the
> probabilities over all of its infinite pathways, was pure genius.

Except that the idea was originally due to Dirac.
And Feynman never hid his intellectual indebtedness,

Jan
Dr Robin Bignall - 21 Jan 2004 14:43 GMT
>> >In some cases, maybe. But there are those who are so obviously
>> >thinking at a higher level than their peers that they are
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Except that the idea was originally due to Dirac.
>And Feynman never hid his intellectual indebtedness,

Thanks, Jan. It's been a long time since I read up on this sort of thing
(most recently in the book about String Theory by Greene), but I treated
myself to several books by Feynman for Christmas and must get down to
reading them.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Jerry Friedman - 20 Jan 2004 23:18 GMT
> >> >PS Feynman however notes that Pauli was quite friendly
> >> >at F's PhD defense, and after the talk.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> This is debatable.

Indeed.

> > And genius is a romantic myth invented after the fact.
>
> In some cases, maybe. But there are those who are so obviously
> thinking at a higher level than their peers that they are
> contemporaneously recognized as geniuses. Some who knew them have said
> this of Feynman and Pauli.

I imagine it would have been clear at Feynman's thesis defense that he
knew what he was talking about.

> > Feynman, Pauli, and others certainly weren't worrying
> > about who might be a genius (whatever that may be) or not.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> This behavior is analogous to comparing "equipment" in the boys'
> locker room in junior high, and similarly ubiquitous.

Hm.  I went to a junior high in which students had to go out for a
sport, which meant changing and showering in the locker room every day
or more often, and I remember exactly one mention of somebody's penis
size.  And I spent overly long in grad school and remember one or two
admiring comments about people who were really smart, but no
comparisons and very little on the topic at all.

> > They just wanted to hear a talk that made sense,
>
> I'm sure they did want to hear a talk that made sense, but don't make
> the mistake of thinking that there isn't also a great deal of
> posturing that goes on during any academic seminar.

Now that I've seen.  Mostly from certain professors.

Signature

Jerry Friedman

Evan Kirshenbaum - 21 Jan 2004 00:54 GMT
> > Academics--and particularly graduate students--spend a lot of time
> > thinking and talking about how their respective intellects measure up.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> day or more often, and I remember exactly one mention of somebody's
> penis size.

I don't remember any, junior high or high school.  (We didn't have to
go out for sports, but we did have daily gym, which meant daily
showers.)

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J. J. Lodder - 21 Jan 2004 10:16 GMT
> > >> >PS Feynman however notes that Pauli was quite friendly
> > >> >at F's PhD defense, and after the talk.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> I imagine it would have been clear at Feynman's thesis defense that he
> knew what he was talking about.

Should be.
The subject was what became known as Wheeler-Feynman Electrodynamics,

Jan
J. J. Lodder - 21 Jan 2004 00:01 GMT
> >> >PS Feynman however notes that Pauli was quite friendly
> >> >at F's PhD defense, and after the talk.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> This is debatable.

That's what the session is for.

> > And genius is a romantic myth invented after the fact.
>
> In some cases, maybe. But there are those who are so obviously
> thinking at a higher level than their peers that they are
> contemporaneously recognized as geniuses.

That's the romantic myth.

> Some who knew them have said
> this of Feynman and Pauli.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Academics--and particularly graduate students--spend a lot of time
> thinking and talking about how their respective intellects measure up.

The degeneration of academic life hadn't progressed that far
in the days of Pauli and Feynman.

> This behavior is analogous to comparing "equipment" in the boys'
> locker room in junior high, and similarly ubiquitous.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the mistake of thinking that there isn't also a great deal of
> posturing that goes on during any academic seminar.

Posturing by itself won't do it,
not even when you are Feynman,

Jan
Aaron J. Dinkin - 21 Jan 2004 04:49 GMT
>> > Perhaps the most devastating _insult_ to a speaker at a colloquim
>> > was "this is so bad it isn't even wrong". I think Pauli might have
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> site attributes it to Dirac.  It's said to have been a comment on a
> paper rather than directed to a speaker.

My high school math teacher had Pauli as his PhD advisor and says the
same - that is, that 'This isn't even wrong' was something that Pauli
wrote on papers. He also described the Pauli Effect - when Pauli enters
the lab, the machinery stops working - and told an amusing anecdote about
when Pauli took his grad students out for ice cream.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Evan Kirshenbaum - 21 Jan 2004 16:27 GMT
> My high school math teacher had Pauli as his PhD advisor and says
> the same - that is, that 'This isn't even wrong' was something that
> Pauli wrote on papers. He also described the Pauli Effect - when
> Pauli enters the lab, the machinery stops working - and told an
> amusing anecdote about when Pauli took his grad students out for ice
> cream.

Share, please.

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Charles Riggs - 22 Jan 2004 09:22 GMT
>> My high school math teacher had Pauli as his PhD advisor and says
>> the same - that is, that 'This isn't even wrong' was something that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Share, please.

'You got me, Babe.'  Best I can do.
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Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Aaron J. Dinkin - 23 Jan 2004 05:26 GMT
>> My high school math teacher had Pauli as his PhD advisor and says
>> the same - that is, that 'This isn't even wrong' was something that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Share, please.

Well, it seems that the guy at the ice cream place intended to ask whether
they wanted hard ice cream or soft-serve. Except he didn't speak German
very well (this was in Zurich), and ended up asking whether they wanted
'solid' or 'liquid' ice cream. Which launched Pauli into a minutes-long
rant about how could you offer solid and liquid but not gaseous ice cream?
Gas is one of the three fundamental states of matter, and if you're going
to sell two of them it's not fair not to sell the other! The poor
ice-cream guy didn't know what hit him.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Tony Cooper - 23 Jan 2004 05:51 GMT
>>> My high school math teacher had Pauli as his PhD advisor and says
>>> the same - that is, that 'This isn't even wrong' was something that
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>to sell two of them it's not fair not to sell the other! The poor
>ice-cream guy didn't know what hit him.

I forget who it was, but two people on the radio were talking about
the "Newlyweds" TV show with Nick Lachey and Jessica Simpson.  I'm not
familiar with either one of them, but evidently Jessica is extremely
attractive - and hangs it all out - and has an IQ that is identical to
her bra size.  

The first guy was commenting how bad the show was, but it was evident
he'd watched every minute of it.   The second guy was chiding the
first guy for watching the show.

The first guy replied with a shrug in his voice "It was bad, but still
better than watching an interview with a physicist."
Murray Arnow - 24 Jan 2004 00:24 GMT
> >> My high school math teacher had Pauli as his PhD advisor and says
> >> the same - that is, that 'This isn't even wrong' was something that
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> to sell two of them it's not fair not to sell the other! The poor
> ice-cream guy didn't know what hit him.

I'm not sure if this a story about the Pauli Effect. Here is another
story that may be a better example. Many details escape me, perhaps Jan
Lodder can fill them in.

I think this took place in Zurich. A physicist was telling Pauli that
his lab equipment one day started to do very odd things for a short
time. The chap said he was unable to determine what caused that one-time
anomaly. Pauli explained the event was due to his train stopping in
Zurich the day and time of the occurrence.
J. J. Lodder - 24 Jan 2004 09:06 GMT
> I think this took place in Zurich. A physicist was telling Pauli that
> his lab equipment one day started to do very odd things for a short
> time. The chap said he was unable to determine what caused that one-time
> anomaly. Pauli explained the event was due to his train stopping in
> Zurich the day and time of the occurrence.

It is a standard Pauli anecdote,
told for the first time (and probably invented)
by George Gamov, as far as I am aware.

Another one for you:

At their first meeting Ehrenfest took a dislike
to Pauli's arrogance and said:
"Speaking frankly, I like your work better than your person."
Pauli replied:
"For me it's just the opposite with you."

They became great friends after that,
and delighted in exchanging this kind of mean tit for tat
whenever there was an occasion for it.

Jan


Aaron J. Dinkin - 24 Jan 2004 13:35 GMT
>> >> He also described the Pauli Effect - when Pauli enters the lab, the
>> >> machinery stops working - and told an amusing anecdote about when
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> Well, it seems that the guy at the ice cream place

<snip>

> I'm not sure if this a story about the Pauli Effect. Here is another
> story that may be a better example.

<snip>

It wasn't intended to be, though looking back at how I introduced it I
can see how you might get the idea that it was. I meant that my math
teacher (1) described the Pauli Effect and (2) told an amusing anecdote
about ice cream, but I didn't mean to indicate any connection between them.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2004 01:08 GMT
> Well, it seems that the guy at the ice cream place intended to ask
> whether they wanted hard ice cream or soft-serve. Except he didn't
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> them it's not fair not to sell the other! The poor ice-cream guy
> didn't know what hit him.

So did Pauli not know that it's (apparently) impossible to actually
freeze ice cream solid at the sort of temperatures you can get in even
commercial freezers?[1] That would have made a better rant, I'd think.

[1] Evidently the physics of the colloidal suspension are such that
   the freezing point for the rest keeps going down as parts of it
   solidify, so it never quite gets there.  Or something like that.
   I'll have to check _On Food and Cooking_ when I get home.

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J. J. Lodder - 24 Jan 2004 09:06 GMT
> > Well, it seems that the guy at the ice cream place intended to ask
> > whether they wanted hard ice cream or soft-serve. Except he didn't
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>     solidify, so it never quite gets there.  Or something like that.
>     I'll have to check _On Food and Cooking_ when I get home.

Ah, food, on topic at last.
That's why icecream is made by continually stirring the mixture
while it freezes, to prevent large crytals from forming.

Home appliances are sold that do this for you,

Jan
Dr Robin Bignall - 24 Jan 2004 13:44 GMT
>> > Well, it seems that the guy at the ice cream place intended to ask
>> > whether they wanted hard ice cream or soft-serve. Except he didn't
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Home appliances are sold that do this for you,

Here's an expensive one that makes excellent ice cream.
http://www.lakelandlimited.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/GBP/Para
metricSearch-Start;sid=2HCXFYcOmHvZMcccrbGbEy_OYqx2WxZHt3M=?search_typecode=2&se
arch_typecode=4&search_typecode=10&search_typecode=16&search_online=true&search_
availability=true&search_category_recursive=true&search_attribute_keyword=name&s
earch_attribute_keyword=shortDescription&search_attribute_keyword=longDescriptio
n&search_attribute_keyword=SKU&sort_attribute_1=product_name&sort_direction_1=as
cending&search_precision_keyword=0&search_query_keyword=gaggia


(The link is long and you'll have to join it if it gets split.)

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

david56 - 24 Jan 2004 16:59 GMT
Dr Robin Bignall spake thus:

> >Ah, food, on topic at last.
> >That's why icecream is made by continually stirring the mixture
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> (The link is long and you'll have to join it if it gets split.)

You're not kidding.  550 characters.  Here's a tinyurl so we don't
all have to past it into Notepad to connect it back together.
http://tinyurl.com/2wlv2

Signature

David
=====

Skitt - 24 Jan 2004 22:57 GMT
> Dr Robin Bignall spake thus:

>>> Ah, food, on topic at last.
>>> That's why icecream is made by continually stirring the mixture
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>>
>> Here's an expensive one that makes excellent ice cream.

http://www.lakelandlimited.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/GBP/Para
metricSearch-Start;sid=2HCXFYcOmHvZMcccrbGbEy_OYqx2WxZHt3M=?search_typecode=2&se
arch_typecode=4&search_typecode=10&search_typecode=16&search_online=true&search_
availability=true&search_category_recursive=true&search_attribute_keyword=name&s
earch_attribute_keyword=shortDescription&search_attribute_keyword=longDescriptio
n&search_attribute_keyword=SKU&sort_attribute_1


=product_name&sort_direction_1=ascending&search_precision_keyword=0&search_q
uery_keyword=gaggia

>> (The link is long and you'll have to join it if it gets split.)
>
> You're not kidding.  550 characters.  Here's a tinyurl so we don't
> all have to past it into Notepad to connect it back together.
> http://tinyurl.com/2wlv2

Whatcha mean "we all", paleface?  It worked just fine for me as is.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

david56 - 24 Jan 2004 23:30 GMT
Skitt spake thus:

> > Dr Robin Bignall spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Whatcha mean "we all", paleface?  It worked just fine for me as is.

I wanted to reply to let you know that I understood the reference,
but I can't think of an amusing way of doing it.

Signature

David
=====

Donna Richoux - 25 Jan 2004 00:17 GMT
> Skitt spake thus:

>> > Here's a tinyurl so we don't
>> > all have to past it into Notepad to connect it back together.

> > Whatcha mean "we all", paleface?  It worked just fine for me as is.
>
> I wanted to reply to let you know that I understood the reference,
> but I can't think of an amusing way of doing it.

I think there is something about the nature of that line that defies a
snappy comeback. What could the Lone Ranger have said back to Tonto,
after all?

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Reinhold (Rey) Aman - 25 Jan 2004 04:07 GMT
> > Skitt spake thus:

> >> > Here's a tinyurl so we don't all have to past
> >> > it into Notepad to connect it back together.

> > > Whatcha mean "we all", paleface?
> > > It worked just fine for me as is.

> > I wanted to reply to let you know that I understood the
> > reference, but I can't think of an amusing way of doing it.

> I think there is something about the nature of that line that defies a
> snappy comeback. What could the Lone Ranger have said back to Tonto,
> after all?

"I'll get your red a.s for this, you drunk Injun vermin!"

Signature

Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Some of whose best friends are native Americans

Murray Arnow - 25 Jan 2004 14:42 GMT
> > > Skitt spake thus:
>  
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> "I'll get your red a.s for this, you drunk Injun vermin!"

That doesn't do it. LR already got plenty of red a.s. Rey, these were
two unmarried men prancing around in the West. The beauty of "Whatdya me
'we', white man" is that there is no rejoinder. No matter what,  
Kimosabe loses his hair, and his faithful Indian companion lives on to
bugger another white man.
Reinhold (Rey) Aman - 25 Jan 2004 22:10 GMT
> > > > Skitt spake thus:

> > > >> > Here's a tinyurl so we don't all have to past
> > > >> > it into Notepad to connect it back together.

> > > > > Whatcha mean "we all", paleface?
> > > > > It worked just fine for me as is.

> > > > I wanted to reply to let you know that I understood the
> > > > reference, but I can't think of an amusing way of doing it.

> > > I think there is something about the nature of that line that
> > > defies a snappy comeback. What could the Lone Ranger have said
> > > back to  Tonto, after all?

> > "I'll get your red a.s for this, you drunk Injun vermin!"

> That doesn't do it. LR already got plenty of red a.s. Rey, these
> were two unmarried men prancing around in the West.

[...]

Murray!  I'm shocked.  *I* am AUE's homophobe & racist, remember.

Signature

Reinhold (Rey) Aman
But don't call me Gitler or Gimmler

Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2004 16:39 GMT
> > So did Pauli not know that it's (apparently) impossible to actually
> > freeze ice cream solid at the sort of temperatures you can get in even
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Home appliances are sold that do this for you,

Sure, but even so...

   The freezing process is an interesting one. The dissolved sugar,
   by getting in the way of water molecules that must bond together
   to form ice crystals, lowers the freezing point of the solution
   from 32° to about 27°F (0° to -3°C).  At this temperaturethe
   watermolecules have slowed down enough that their mutual
   attraction becomes stronger than the disruptive influence of the
   sugar.  As they crystallize, the water molecules are removed from
   the solution, which means that the *remaining* solution gets more
   concentrated with sugar: and so its freezing point is lowered even
   further.   (The same concentration effect increases the boiling
   point in sugar solutions during candy making...)  It is clear from
   this trend that the liquid phase of ice cream will *never* freeze
   completely, though the lower the temperature gets, the less liquid
   remains.  Ice cream is noticeably softer at 22°F (-6°C)--the
   typical temperature of soft ice cream--than at 0°F (-18°C) because
   half of the water is still liquid at the first temperature, but
   only 20% of it is liquid at the second.  At 10°F (-12°C), the
   recommended serving temperature of regular ice cream, a half
   gallon will contain about a cup of liquid: a proportion that
   provides the right yielding, semisolid consistency.

            Harold McGee, _On Food and Cooking_, pp. 27-8, emphasis
            his.

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J. J. Lodder - 18 Jan 2004 23:33 GMT
> > > When I was at the University of Chicago, Fermi
> > > stories abounded and none resembled the above quotation. Before we get
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> explained away the things which were initially confusing to Fermi and
> also raised new and more fundamental questions.

We clearly need more context.

> Perhaps the  most devastating _insult_ to a speaker at a colloquim was
> "this is so bad it isn't even wrong". I think Pauli might have been
> responsible for that one, unless it was Fermi again.

That is said to have been Pauli,
but the 'so bad that' part should be left out.
So it is worse, it isn't even bad, it is just nothing at all.
'Not falsifiable' Popper might have said.

But despite having looked for it, and asked for it,
I have not been able to find out on which occasion,
and against whom Pauli is supposed
to have uttered these memorable words.

Anybody?

Jan

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"Es ist sogar nicht falsch!" (Wolfgang Pauli)

Murray Arnow - 18 Jan 2004 16:16 GMT
jjlxa21@xs4all.nl wrote:

> > jjlxa21@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> elevated Fermi to the no doubt exalted rank of an 'Exccellenza'
> Fermi presented himself as 'the driver of Exccellenza Fermi"

His generosity and kindness have been often noted along with his quirks
of ego. Like all humans, he was complex and not readily made to fit a
mold. In any case, Fermi was always regarded as a mensch.

> > When I was at the University of Chicago, Fermi
> > stories abounded and none resembled the above quotation. Before we get
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> If the circumstances were right
> it could even have been an insult.

It didn't escape me, but I don't recall stories about Fermi being
sarcastic. Stories about him being caught in making an error are known,
however. Fermi was not happy to be shown as fallible.
J. J. Lodder - 18 Jan 2004 23:33 GMT
> jjlxa21@xs4all.nl wrote:

Your newsclient is broken.
It quotes my Reply-To: address instead of my From; address.

snippage.

> > Some anecdotes say otherwise.
> > For example, Gamov tells us that when Mussolini
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> of ego. Like all humans, he was complex and not readily made to fit a
> mold. In any case, Fermi was always regarded as a mensch.

Something like that applies to the whole bunch of them.
They were usually friendly with people they regarded as intellectual
equals, and less than that with the rest.

As has been said of Rutherford: "He didn't suffer fools gladly."

Jan
Murray Arnow - 19 Jan 2004 01:40 GMT
Jan wrote:

> > jjlxa21@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
> Your newsclient is broken.
> It quotes my Reply-To: address instead of my From; address.

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll see if I can fix it.

> snippage.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> They were usually friendly with people they regarded as intellectual
> equals, and less than that with the rest.

You lost me. Who makes up the bunch?

> As has been said of Rutherford: "He didn't suffer fools gladly."

Come to think of it, who among us does?
Donna Richoux - 19 Jan 2004 08:55 GMT
> Jan wrote:

> > As has been said of Rutherford: "He didn't suffer fools gladly."
> >
> Come to think of it, who among us does?

Paul, speaking to the Corinthians, said they did, but I can't understand
what he was getting at, overall. Something about distinguishing beween
the "ministers of the righteous" and the "false apostles." Or maybe it
refers to "boasting" and those who "glory after the flesh." The passage
(see verse 19) is in modern English at

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=2COR+11&language=englis
h&version=NIV

and in the King James Version at

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=2COR%2B11&showfn=on&sho
wxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=12&y=8

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

J. J. Lodder - 19 Jan 2004 22:32 GMT
> > Jan wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Paul, speaking to the Corinthians, said they did, but I can't understand
> what he was getting at, overall.

Seems to me he was telling them
they should listen to him no matter what.
If they considered him to be wise
they should because because he was wise.
If they considered him to be a fool
because they should suffer a fool gladly.
Physicists are lacking this christian virtue, it seems.

It is to late to advise the Corinthians,

Jan
Dr Robin Bignall - 19 Jan 2004 13:40 GMT
>> jjlxa21@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>As has been said of Rutherford: "He didn't suffer fools gladly."

Neither did Newton.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

 
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