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The need to knead

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irwell - 22 Mar 2008 03:22 GMT
Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?

What happens if you just mix the flour,salt,sugar,yeast etc and
bake it?
Arcadian Rises - 22 Mar 2008 03:51 GMT
> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>
> What happens if you just mix the flour,salt,sugar,yeast etc and
> bake it?

I don't know about kneading, but I find slapping the dough
unnecessary, not to mention cruel and inhuman.
Dan Leifker - 22 Mar 2008 04:03 GMT
> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>
> What happens if you just mix the flour,salt,sugar,yeast etc and
> bake it?

Julia Child said you knead dough to build up the gluten, whatever that
is.  She even did a fairly good imitation of the gluten: she'd clench
her teeth, make tight fists, and then grunt as if straining to expel
something from her body.

I bought a bread maker a few years ago and have used it three times.  I
figure each loaf has cost me around US$35.  But the gluten was well
developed.

dleifker
R H Draney - 22 Mar 2008 05:08 GMT
Dan Leifker filted:

>> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>figure each loaf has cost me around US$35.  But the gluten was well
>developed.

When I were a lad, a "bread maker" was a person, not a kitchen appliance....r

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Django Cat - 22 Mar 2008 12:12 GMT
> Dan Leifker filted:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> When I were a lad, a "bread maker" was a person, not a kitchen
> appliance....r

Ah, yes.

"And what happened to the bacon slicer"?
"She got the sack, too".

DC

--
Dan Leifker - 22 Mar 2008 16:25 GMT
>> Dan Leifker filted:
>>>> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> DC

Many years ago on the Tonight Show, Johnny Carson went into the audience
and brought forward a man who had lost 300 pounds.  The audience
applauded madly because he had a trim, athletic figure.

"How did you do it?" asked Johnny.
"She wandered off into the desert and I drove away," the man replied.

dleifker (AmE)
Django Cat - 22 Mar 2008 19:46 GMT
> > Ah, yes.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "How did you do it?" asked Johnny.
> "She wandered off into the desert and I drove away," the man replied.

Nice.

--
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 23 Mar 2008 18:20 GMT
> When I were a lad, a "bread maker" was a person, not a kitchen appliance....r

and when your grandfather were a lad a typewriter was also a person
(whereas when your great-grandson are a lad it will be something he
might find in a museum).

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athel (BrE)

Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Mar 2008 22:16 GMT
> Dan Leifker filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> When I were a lad, a "bread maker" was a person, not a kitchen
> appliance....r

Grace Hopper used to quip that when she joined the navy, "computer"
was a job description.

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R H Draney - 24 Mar 2008 03:49 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>> Dan Leifker filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Grace Hopper used to quip that when she joined the navy, "computer"
>was a job description.

Must've been when the OED was in its first edition....r

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Dan Leifker - 25 Mar 2008 06:26 GMT
>> Dan Leifker filted:
>>> I bought a bread maker a few years ago and have used it three times.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Grace Hopper used to quip that when she joined the navy, "computer"
> was a job description.

How times have changed.  I had a friend who worked for Cray (the
supercomputer company, whatever happened to them?) and he used to boast
that he could make 200 million mistakes a second.  I bet no Hopper-era
computer could do that.

Capt. Hopper addressed my freshman computer science class in 1980, and I
still remember snippets from her speech.  An amazing lady.

dleifker
Evan Kirshenbaum - 25 Mar 2008 06:51 GMT
> How times have changed.  I had a friend who worked for Cray (the
> supercomputer company, whatever happened to them?)

I year or so ago, I was positive they had disappeared.  Then my
brother got a job with them.

   http://www.cray.com/

According to Wikipedia, they merged with SGI in 1996 and were then
sold to Tera Computer in 2000, which renamed itself "Cray Inc."

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Jitze - 25 Mar 2008 09:41 GMT
>>> Dan Leifker filted:
>>>> I bought a bread maker a few years ago and have used it three times.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>that he could make 200 million mistakes a second.  I bet no Hopper-era
>computer could do that.

This is the guy who hired me, causing me to emigrate to America...

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/couperusj/Seymour.html

>Capt. Hopper addressed my freshman computer science class in 1980, and I
>still remember snippets from her speech.  An amazing lady.

I worked a lot with her and her team in the Navy. They were developing
a huge suite of programs to validate Cobol compilers against the
standard, and I offered our compiler and machine time as a testing
facility. I was also a co-panelist with her at a coupla FJCC's and
SJCC's. (Industry veterans will know what those were, along with
other acronyms like JACM, SIGPLAN, CODASYL ...  My my, how
the times have changed)

Jitze
John Varela - 26 Mar 2008 01:32 GMT
> CODASYL

I used to work with a man who claimed that the first meeting of CODASYL took
place in his living room, at a time when he was an Air Force Colonel
responsible for the computer center at NSA -- if I recall correctly, he
claimed their computer was the second Univac built, the first one having gone
to the Census Bureau.  I was skeptical and then one day circa 1980 he
received an invitation to a pioneers celebration at some computer conference.
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John Varela
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Frank ess - 25 Mar 2008 16:57 GMT
>>> Dan Leifker filted:
>>>> I bought a bread maker a few years ago and have used it three
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Capt. Hopper addressed my freshman computer science class in 1980,
> and I still remember snippets from her speech.  An amazing lady.

Truly; her "Better to do it and apologize than ask permission and be
denied" position resulted in much progress (and apologization).

Did she hand out nanoseconds to your class?

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Frank ess

Dan Leifker - 26 Mar 2008 06:25 GMT
> Did she hand out nanoseconds to your class?

Yes, she sure did.  "The maximum distance that light can travel in one
nanosecond."  I kept mine for 17 years and then met a guy who was a huge
fan of Capt. Hopper and would have sold his soul for a nanosecond.  I
gave him mine (after some weeping).

Another of her astounding analogies: "One hundred years ago, if you had
one ox and it couldn't do what you needed, you didn't try to grow a
bigger ox.  You got two oxen."  The applications to computer engineering
were clear... and prescient.

dleifker
Paul Wolff - 22 Mar 2008 18:00 GMT
>irwell wrote:
>> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?

Wheat flour contains starch granules.  Starch granules contain proteins.
The two most important in wheat starch are gliaden and glutenin.
Protein molecules are longish chains and can curl up into balls or
stretch out in long strands. If gliaden and glutenin molecules are
stretched out and laid alongside one another in a damp environment they
can link together to form another protein which we call gluten.
Kneading moist wheat flour causes this to happen.

Gluten is very tough and elastic and allows a bread loaf to rise and
develop when yeast distributed through it ferments.

>>  What happens if you just mix the flour,salt,sugar,yeast etc and
>>bake it?

If you just mix and bake then you get pastry (other things being equal).
Pastry mixes are, I understand, handled gently so that gluten is not
developed.

>Julia Child said you knead dough to build up the gluten, whatever that
>is. She even did a fairly good imitation of the gluten: she'd clench
>her teeth, make tight fists, and then grunt as if straining to expel
>something from her body.

She was right about gluten being the object of kneading, but I challenge
the observation that clenched teeth and tensed muscles imitate it.

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Paul

Dan Leifker - 22 Mar 2008 18:30 GMT
> She was right about gluten being the object of kneading, but I challenge
> the observation that clenched teeth and tensed muscles imitate it.

Julia Child used the phrase "the gluten cloak" (did she invent it?) and
recommended that you let the dough rest now and then because the gluten
was tense.  Imitating tense gluten with tensed muscles was a great
illustration... it stuck with me all these years.  I miss her a lot.

dleifker
Paul Wolff - 22 Mar 2008 20:52 GMT
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>> She was right about gluten being the object of kneading, but I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>was tense.  Imitating tense gluten with tensed muscles was a great
>illustration... it stuck with me all these years.  I miss her a lot.

The starch granules in the wheat flour are each encapsulated inside a
protein case.  That might be a 'cloak'.  Kneading develops the gluten in
sheet form as the protein cases stick together and are stretched between
granules.  The sheets could be cloaks, too, if you can visualise them.

There is no need specifically to allow bread dough to rest, because
that's taken care of during the rising.  Unleavened breads, such as
chapatis and tortillas, are left to rest for a short while during
kneading.  The elastically stretched gluten will relax when it is
rested.  I don't know the reason why relaxing a tortilla mid-knead is a
good thing; it may help the final texture. But clenching up to indicate
tension is a wrong image for a protein: when gluten is tense it is
stretched out, and when it relaxes it becomes wrinkly. Think of an
inflated party balloon.
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Paul

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 23 Mar 2008 18:22 GMT
>> irwell wrote:
>>> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Gluten is very tough and elastic and allows a bread loaf to rise and
> develop when yeast distributed through it ferments.

Gluten is also what people with coeliac disease (AmE celiac disease)
are allergic to.

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athel (BrE)

Paul Wolff - 23 Mar 2008 18:51 GMT
>On 2008-03-22 18:00:16 +0100, Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Gluten is also what people with coeliac disease (AmE celiac disease)
>are allergic to.

How are they with pastry, which should be low in gluten?
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Paul

Amethyst Deceiver - 26 Mar 2008 15:22 GMT
> >On 2008-03-22 18:00:16 +0100, Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> said:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> >
> How are they with pastry, which should be low in gluten?

It's the proteins that make up gluten that are the problem - gliaden and
prolamines in rye, barley and oats.
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Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Paul Wolff - 26 Mar 2008 20:49 GMT
>In article <CfFRoHnWip5HFAPo@fpwolff.demon.co.uk>,
>bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk says...
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>It's the proteins that make up gluten that are the problem - gliaden and
>prolamines in rye, barley and oats.

Gluten seems to be what a great proportion of sources say, though.  The
first six Google hits for me with a search on coeliac and disease and
allergy are:

Coeliac disease (coeliac sprue or gluten allergy)
Coeliac disease is a lifelong condition of the small intestine (bowel).
www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/glutenallergy.htm - 83k - Cached -
Similar pages

Coeliac Disease and wheat allergy or wheat intolerance
Coeliac disease is found in people who are sensitive to gluten. Gluten
is found in wheat and other cereals. What this means for sufferers is
that gluten ...
www.hub-uk.com/interesting/coeliac-disease.htm - 28k - Cached - Similar
pages

Coeliac disease (coeliac sprue or gluten allergy).
Written by Dr Jocelyn S Fraser, specialist registrar in gastroenterology
What is coeliac disease? ...
www.tiscali.co.uk/lifestyle/healthfitness/health_advice/netdoctor/archive
/000106.html - 47k - Cached - Similar pages

Celiac Disease - Celiac Disease and Food Allergies
Learn the differences between celiac disease or celiac sprue -- an
autoimmune disorder -- and food allergy.
foodallergies.about.com/od/foodallergybasics/f/celiacfaq.htm - 23k -
Cached - Similar pages

Food-Info.net : Celiac disease (gluten intolerance) and wheat allergy
Celiac disease (gluten intolerance) and wheat allergy. Celiac disease
(also called coeliac, nontropical sprue, celiac sprue, gluten intolerant
enteropathy, ...
www.food-info.net/uk/intol/gluten.htm - 28k - Cached - Similar pages

Gluten Allergy and Coeliac Disease
Diagnostic Allergy Clinic for Food Allergies, Allergy Testing, Allergic
Reactions, Anaphylaxis, Asthma, Hayfever, Urticaria and Eczema.
www.allergyhospital.co.uk/coeliac_disease.htm - 42k - Cached - Similar
pages

Five out of six identify gluten in the headline.  At the seventh, with
the majestic authority of a British government information site
http://www.food.gov.uk/safereating/allergyintol/guide/caterers/ we find:

       Some people need to avoid certain foods because of a food
       intolerance. About 1 in 100 people need to avoid gluten, a type
       of protein found in wheat, rye and barley, and some need to
       avoid oats too. This is because they have an intolerance to
       gluten, which is called coeliac disease.

I wonder why gluten gets all the blame.  Perhaps it's another case of
article writers copying from each other.  It can be quite saddening to
do a search on a phrase and find the identical statements of fact and
opinion repeated verbatim from site to site, with no acknowledgement or
apparent connection between them.
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Paul

Amethyst Deceiver - 27 Mar 2008 12:23 GMT
> >In article <CfFRoHnWip5HFAPo@fpwolff.demon.co.uk>,
> >bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk says...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> first six Google hits for me with a search on coeliac and disease and
> allergy are:

Yes, I know. Believe me, I know. This discussion of good bread is very
unfair!

> Coeliac disease (coeliac sprue or gluten allergy)
> Coeliac disease is a lifelong condition of the small intestine (bowel).
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> opinion repeated verbatim from site to site, with no acknowledgement or
> apparent connection between them.

I suspect gluten was thought to be the problem before it had been broken
down into its proteins, and before enough research had been done on
coeliac to discover that the problem is the smaller proteins rather than
the bigger protein. And now it's stuck. And thinking further, perhaps
it's not solely gliaden that's the problem - it's possible to get
gluten-free wheat products. I guess it's more complicated than I/we
realise and gluten is the scapegoat in a "lies to children" fashion.
Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

JF - 27 Mar 2008 09:25 GMT
>It's the proteins that make up gluten that are the problem - gliaden and
>prolamines in rye, barley and oats.

Bread made with teff has health warnings reverse embossed into the
baking pans. Teff bread is being deinvented in England.
                                   Jim Follett
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 23 Mar 2008 18:28 GMT
>> irwell wrote:
>>> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> they can link together to form another protein which we call gluten.
> Kneading moist wheat flour causes this to happen.

20 years ago when everyone was excited about chaos (well, at least,
some of the people I knew were excited about it) they talked about a
thing called the baker's transformation, which was an attempt to
describe kneading in mathematical terms. If I remember rightly it
caused any two neighbouring points in the original dough to become
arbitrarily far from one another in the kneaded product.

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athel (BrE)

Paul Wolff - 23 Mar 2008 18:48 GMT
>On 2008-03-22 18:00:16 +0100, Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>caused any two neighbouring points in the original dough to become
>arbitrarily far from one another in the kneaded product.

I can see that someone might decide to calculate how much kneading was
required to create a completely random mixture, but the mixture isn't
random, because of the preferential association of certain proteins.
But I dare say this can be calculated around, given motivation to do so.
I don't see any stage of the kneading process as a 'transformation' in
any sort of second-order change of state sense, because it is gradual
until it is maximised.  It's not like Cinderella and the pumpkin.
Signature

Paul

LaReina del Perros - 22 Mar 2008 06:00 GMT
>Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>
>What happens if you just mix the flour,salt,sugar,yeast etc and
>bake it?

With the right recipe, you get a delicious artisanal loaf.

No-Knead Bread Recipe by Fleischmann's

3 cups all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting
1/4 teaspoon Instant Yeast (Fleischmann's RapidRise or Bread Machine)
1-1/4 teaspoons salt
1-5/8 cups very warm water (120° to 130°F)
Cornmeal or wheat bran as needed

In a large bowl combine flour, yeast, and salt. Add water and stir
until blended; dough will be shaggy and sticky. Cover bowl with
plastic wrap. Let dough rest at least 12 hours, preferably 18, at warm
room temperature, about 70°F.

Dough is ready when surface is dotted with bubbles. Lightly flour a
work surface and place dough on it; sprinkle with a little more flour
and fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover loosely with plastic
wrap and let rest 15 minutes.

Using just enough flour to keep dough from sticking to work surface or
to your fingers, gently and quickly shape dough into a ball.
Generously coat a cotten towel (not terry cloth) with flour, wheat
bran or cornmeal; put dough seam side down on towel and dust with more
flour, bran, or cornmeal. Cover with another cotton towel and let rise
for 2 hours. When it is ready, dough will be more than double in size
and will not readily spring back when poked with a finger.

A half-hour before dough is ready preheat oven to 450°F. Put a 6 to
8-quart covered pot (cast iron, enamel, Pyrex, or ceramic) in oven as
it heats. When dough is ready (see above paragraph), carefully remove
pot from oven. Sliding your hand under the towel, turn dough over into
heated pot, seam side up; even if it looks like a mess it is okay.
Shake pan once or twice if dough is unevenly distributed; it will
straighten out as it bakes. Cover with lid and bake 30 minutes, then
remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is
beautifully browned. Cool on a rack.
LFS - 22 Mar 2008 09:00 GMT
>> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is
> beautifully browned. Cool on a rack.

Easier to knead than do all that IMO - you'd have to wash the cotton
towels afterwards as well.

Kneading is therapeutic.

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Laura
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Mike Barnes - 22 Mar 2008 10:39 GMT
In alt.usage.english, LFS wrote:

>>> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Kneading is therapeutic.

Quite right. Additionally it's an unbeatable way of cleaning your
fingernails.

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

tinwhistler - 22 Mar 2008 06:12 GMT
> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>
> What happens if you just mix the flour,salt,sugar,yeast etc and
> bake it?

That's a classified matter, the answer being made available only on
the basis of a knead to dough.
--
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Oleg Lego - 22 Mar 2008 06:25 GMT
>> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>That's a classified matter, the answer being made available only on
>the basis of a knead to dough.
\I officially own a fair amount of dough. I have the paper to prove
it. It's a deed to dough.

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WCdnE

Garrett Wollman - 22 Mar 2008 06:22 GMT
>Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?

If that's what the formula says, yes.  Baking is not like other sorts
of cooking; the procedure really does matter much of the time.

Of course, you can use a labor-saving device to knead the dough for
you.  I have a stand mixer, which I just used earlier this evening
-- (checks clock) make that yesterday evening -- to start a loaf of
slow-rise whole-wheat bread.  Tomorrow, erm, later today, I will take
it out of the refrigerator, shape it, and bench proof it before baking
it.

Kneading "develops" the dough, which means in essence that it makes it
stretchier, while at the same time making sure that the yeast is
reasonably well distributed throughout the mass.  Stretchy dough makes
it possible for the yeast to blow bubbles in it, which in turn
creates the extture

>What happens if you just mix the flour,salt,sugar,yeast etc and
>bake it?

Well, if you bake it before letting it rise, you might as well not put
yeast in, because the dough will not be appreciably leavened before
the heat kills the fungi.  The result will be nasty.

(Of course, you can't properly leave the salt out, either.  Alton
Brown tells the story of one restaurant where he ruined a large batch
of bread dough by failing to put in any salt.  He put the fermenting
dough in a plastic bucket and threw it in the dumpster so the chef
wouldn't know that he had made the mistake, and after a few hours of
early-morning warmth, the dough was lifting the lid of the dumpster.)

-GAWollman
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wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
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Don Phillipson - 22 Mar 2008 13:20 GMT
> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>
> What happens if you just mix the flour,salt,sugar,yeast etc and
> bake it?

It will not rise satisfactorily because you have not
sufficiently exposed the ingredients to air, so that they
cannot take up the oxygen necessary for the chemical
reactions that yield bulky bread.  This process is called
aeration.  (The A in the chain of British ABC cafes stood
for it, viz. Aereated Bread Company.   This firm was
advertizing the quality of its bread, because correctly aerated.)

The practical point is that bakers know how many
minutes each type of dough must be kneaded, in order
to produce the best-textured bread.  The common
range is 5 to 12 minutes.

Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

John Kane - 22 Mar 2008 19:08 GMT
>> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> to produce the best-textured bread.  The common
> range is 5 to 12 minutes.

It apparently is possible to make bread without any (much?) kneading but
the technique is quite different from normal breadmaking.  I have not
done this myself but a number of rec.food.cooking contributers report
success.

See
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/08mini.html?_r=1&em&ex=1163221200&en=af
211bf41e143498&ei=5087%0A&oref=slogin


for a recipe.

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John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Mike Lyle - 22 Mar 2008 19:36 GMT
[...]

> It apparently is possible to make bread without any (much?) kneading
> but the technique is quite different from normal breadmaking.  I have
> not done this myself but a number of rec.food.cooking contributers
> report success.
>
> See

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/08mini.html?_r=1&em&ex=1163221200&en=af
211bf41e143498&ei=5087%0A&oref=slogin


> for a recipe.

Thanks: I'll try that when I next feel the baking urge.
IIUC, ciabatta is made without kneading, but with a very long
fermentation, hence its big bubbles. I had a go once, using guesswork
without a recipe, and what I got in the end was tasty but not very well
risen.

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Mike.

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irwell - 22 Mar 2008 22:26 GMT
>[...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>without a recipe, and what I got in the end was tasty but not very well
>risen.

That sounds like our efforts to make croissants,
after all the folding etc., we finished up with some hard tack
biscuits.

fWIW we have used bread making machines for at least ten
years, make great tasting bread without all the sugar and
preservatives of shop bought breads.

The only annoyance is the paddle that leaves a hole in
an otherwise perfect loaf.
Garrett Wollman - 23 Mar 2008 03:22 GMT
>fWIW we have used bread making machines for at least ten
>years, make great tasting bread without all the sugar and
>preservatives of shop bought breads.

The breads I buy in the shop don't have (much) sugar or preservatives.
(For that matter, I can't think of the last time I had a bread that
tasted sweet and wasn't supposed to -- even in those categories that
other people regularly complain about being "too sweet".  I don't
think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that was sweet in any
way.)

-GAWollman
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Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

R H Draney - 23 Mar 2008 09:01 GMT
Garrett Wollman filted:

>The breads I buy in the shop don't have (much) sugar or preservatives.
>(For that matter, I can't think of the last time I had a bread that
>tasted sweet and wasn't supposed to -- even in those categories that
>other people regularly complain about being "too sweet".  I don't
>think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that was sweet in any
>way.)

I'm not sure if that's a reflection of the bread you've been buying or of your
own tolerance for sweetness in your bread...find some King's Hawaiian Rolls and
let me know if you can still make the claim above....

Most of the challah I've had was sweeter than I normally like bread to be....r

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What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?

Nick - 23 Mar 2008 09:53 GMT
>> fWIW we have used bread making machines for at least ten
>> years, make great tasting bread without all the sugar and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that was sweet in any
> way.)

We're still - after 10 years on-and-off use, trying to stop our bread
maker making bread that tastes too sweet.  All the recipes it came with
make distinctly sweet bread.
Mike Barnes - 23 Mar 2008 10:18 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote:
>We're still - after 10 years on-and-off use, trying to stop our bread
>maker making bread that tastes too sweet.  All the recipes it came with
>make distinctly sweet bread.

What's in those recipes? You must be putting something sweet in to get a
sweet loaf out. I don't use a bread-making machine but FWIW my "recipe"
includes only flour, fresh yeast, water, salt, and assorted seeds.
Sometimes a little olive oil. The result has never been sweet.

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Robin Bignall - 23 Mar 2008 23:16 GMT
>In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote:
>>We're still - after 10 years on-and-off use, trying to stop our bread
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>includes only flour, fresh yeast, water, salt, and assorted seeds.
>Sometimes a little olive oil. The result has never been sweet.

My bread maker comes with a measuring cup and a double spoon which has
a teaspoon at one end and a tablespoon at the other.  The standard
recipe for a one-pound loaf is two cups of flour, one cup of water,
one tsp salt, one tsp of yeast, two tbsp of sugar and two tbsp of fat
(I use butter or olive oil).  If I use less sugar the bread doesn't
rise enough.  Sometimes the loaves seem a little dry but they're never
too sweet.
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Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

irwell - 23 Mar 2008 18:20 GMT
>>> fWIW we have used bread making machines for at least ten
>>> years, make great tasting bread without all the sugar and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>maker making bread that tastes too sweet.  All the recipes it came with
>make distinctly sweet bread.

The recipes we use are modified from those that come
with the machines, trial and error until finding one
that suits your taste.

It seems a lot of recipes, not just bread machine ones,
are copied and modified a little, sometimes for the better
but often for the worse. American pizza is a case in point,
nowhere near as good as the French or Italian offerings.
James Silverton - 23 Mar 2008 18:33 GMT
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:53:21 +0000, Nick
> that suits your taste.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> but often for the worse. American pizza is a case in point,
> nowhere near as good as the French or Italian offerings.

Sweeping statements without even an indication that they are
opinions are liable to get you plonked!

Signature

Jim Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

irwell - 23 Mar 2008 20:46 GMT
>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:53:21 +0000, Nick
>> that suits your taste.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Sweeping statements without even an indication that they are
>opinions are liable to get you plonked!

Plonking statements usually get swept.
James Silverton - 23 Mar 2008 21:45 GMT
irwell  wrote  on Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:46:49 -0700:

??>> "irwell" <hook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
??>> news:u24du39kikgouio0ae4k90hloi3d4tgfbb@4ax.com...
??>>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:53:21 +0000, Nick
??>>> that suits your taste.
??>>>
??>>> It seems a lot of recipes, not just bread machine ones,
??>>> are copied and modified a little, sometimes for the
??>>> better but often for the worse. American pizza is a case
??>>> in point, nowhere near as good as the French or Italian
??>>> offerings.
??>>
??>> Sweeping statements without even an indication that they
??>> are opinions are liable to get you plonked!

Plonk!

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
irwell - 23 Mar 2008 23:40 GMT
> irwell  wrote  on Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:46:49 -0700:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Plonk!

Sweesh!
grusl - 26 Mar 2008 08:04 GMT
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:53:21 +0000, Nick
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> but often for the worse. American pizza is a case in point,
> nowhere near as good as the French or Italian offerings.

There was a pizza place in New York's Greenwich Village that I think
it was off 7th Ave, maybe near Greenwich Ave. They made these
wonderful French-style pizzas - pizzas as I remember them from Alpes-
Maritimes, which were the best I've ever tasted, and often drunk with
a marvellous rose, which was another eye-opener. When I mentioned the
similarity they were horrified - this was 2003 - and denied any French
influence.

Cheers,
George W Russell
Bangalore
R H Draney - 26 Mar 2008 09:55 GMT
grusl filted:

>> It seems a lot of recipes, not just bread machine ones,
>> are copied and modified a little, sometimes for the better
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>similarity they were horrified - this was 2003 - and denied any French
>influence.

The best pizza in America is made at Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix...we have the
word of New York Times food critic Ed Levine on this point....r

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grusl - 26 Mar 2008 11:29 GMT
> The best pizza in America is made at Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix...we have the
> word of New York Times food critic Ed Levine on this point....r

I find A O Scott, one of the NY Times film critics, very helpful. If
he doesn't like a given movie, I probably will.

Cheers,
George W Russell
Bangalore
Robert Bannister - 27 Mar 2008 00:26 GMT
> I find A O Scott, one of the NY Times film critics, very helpful. If
> he doesn't like a given movie, I probably will.

Doesn't this work with all film critics?

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Rob Bannister

R J Valentine - 26 Mar 2008 17:14 GMT
...
} The best pizza in America is made at Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix...we have the
} word of New York Times food critic Ed Levine on this point....r

Better than Chicago pizza?

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rjv

R H Draney - 26 Mar 2008 19:01 GMT
R J Valentine filted:

>...
>} The best pizza in America is made at Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix...we have the
>} word of New York Times food critic Ed Levine on this point....r
>
>Better than Chicago pizza?

Best in the whole country, says Levine...his findings form the basis of his book
"Pizza: A Slice of Heaven"....r

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What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?

Richard Fontana - 27 Mar 2008 03:19 GMT
R J Valentine sez:
> ...
> } The best pizza in America is made at Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix...we have the
> } word of New York Times food critic Ed Levine on this point....r
>
> Better than Chicago pizza?

It's probably better than Chicago "pizza", anyhow.

Truly.

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Richard Fontana

Peter Moylan - 23 Mar 2008 12:40 GMT
> I don't think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that was sweet
> in any way.

You must be the only person in the known universe who has never been to
Maccas. Their buns are made of spun sugar. I deduce that either you
don't have children, or that the children have somehow managed to avoid
the McBirthday Parties.

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For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Nick - 23 Mar 2008 13:14 GMT
>> I don't think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that was sweet
>> in any way.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> don't have children, or that the children have somehow managed to avoid
> the McBirthday Parties.

At least supermarket hamburger buns are sweet as well.  I once got a
packet that was on special offer to freeze and use for my lunchtime
sandwiches.  Yuk!
LFS - 23 Mar 2008 13:24 GMT
>> I don't think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that was sweet
>> in any way.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> don't have children, or that the children have somehow managed to avoid
> the McBirthday Parties.

I've only been once, under protest, in response to pester power, when
the first one opened in Milton Keynes. I ate part of a Filet of Fish and
part of an apple pie, which I opined was not only nasty but dangerous
since it was very hot and served in a packet that prevented it from
cooling down quickly. I have filed the memory under "Cultural
experiences never to be repeated".

We did used to get Domino's pizza occasionally, though.

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Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Mike Lyle - 23 Mar 2008 17:58 GMT
[...MacDough...]>
> I've only been once, under protest, in response to pester power, when
> the first one opened in Milton Keynes. I ate part of a Filet of Fish
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> We did used to get Domino's pizza occasionally, though.

The apple "pie" is bad enough, but the Filet-o-Fish is abyssal. Though I
like good food, I will eat pretty well anything; but the F-o-F was
unfinishable. As British junk food goes (and don't we wish British junk
food would?), the hambuggers were tolerable last time I had one --the
secret is to add all available relishes and trimmings, and not think how
much better it could have been if only ...

(My lips are sealed about that "used". Silent on the subject, I am. Not
mentioning it a bit, at all.)

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LFS - 23 Mar 2008 19:32 GMT
> [...MacDough...]>
>> I've only been once, under protest, in response to pester power, when
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> (My lips are sealed about that "used". Silent on the subject, I am. Not
> mentioning it a bit, at all.)

I was being provocative.

I have just watched the first two episodes of "Delia". Bizarrely
inconsistent - using ready prepared potato but not flavourings like
garlic granules or in a tube. "We don't have to cook it, someone's
already done that for us" seems to be the mantra which makes
"someone"[1] sound quite saintly. And there was a good chunk of religion
and football and Dear Old Mum. It all struck me as a very expensive and
not particularly efficient way of getting indifferent food on the table.

[1] M&S? Waitrose? There is a certain fascination in hoping that the
careful manipulation of the tins and packets might slip so that the
labels show.
Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Mike Lyle - 23 Mar 2008 23:35 GMT
[...]
> I have just watched the first two episodes of "Delia". Bizarrely
> inconsistent - using ready prepared potato but not flavourings like
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> careful manipulation of the tins and packets might slip so that the
> labels show.

I think both of the above suppliers: I certainly didn't spot anything
from Tesco's Value or Sain's Basics ranges. The whole thing has been
embarrassing to watch. There was a burst of violent weather around the
time the first prog was shown: the Independent's reviewer said it was
the wrath of God at Delia's shameless sell-out. She must have
anticipated this divine outrage, which would be why she gave her maker
such a prominent role in the second episode.

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James Silverton - 23 Mar 2008 13:28 GMT
Peter  wrote  on Sun, 23 Mar 2008 22:40:32 +1100:

??>> I don't think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that
??>> was sweet in any way.

PM> You must be the only person in the known universe who has
PM> never been to Maccas. Their buns are made of spun sugar. I
PM> deduce that either you don't have children, or that the
PM> children have somehow managed to avoid the McBirthday
PM> Parties.

What's this "Maccas"? Is it a new Australism for MacDonalds or
does the ex-Beatle involved in the recent messy divorce own
restaurants. To tell the truth, my interest in such things was
so small that the first time I heard the affectionate (?) name
for Macartney was in a British newspaper web page covering the
judicial proceedings.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Peter Moylan - 23 Mar 2008 14:20 GMT
> PM> You must be the only person in the known universe who has
> PM> never been to Maccas. Their buns are made of spun sugar. I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> heard the affectionate (?) name for Macartney was in a British newspaper
> web page covering the judicial proceedings.

It is indeed an Australianism. We haven't bothered following the marital
trials of Paul McHeartthrob. Our interest in such things is covered by
the "dog with wings" joke.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

irwell - 23 Mar 2008 18:12 GMT
On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:28:20 GMT, "James Silverton"

>What's this "Maccas"? Is it a new Australism for MacDonalds

MacDo's in Paris.
Paul Wolff - 23 Mar 2008 13:05 GMT
>In article <c5uau3hi1ebbka40ti5g9uoord7fg4ndcl@4ax.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that was sweet in any
>way.)

The fat in bread in there as a preservative, in the sense of an agent to
preserve freshness, in the sense of to delay the staling process.
Staling is the recrystallization of starch in a hydrated form, and
starch recrystallizes more slowly when fats are present.  French bread
with no fat stales very quickly.

Starch recrystallizes fastest at refrigerator temperatures.
Refrigerating bread makes it stale faster than leaving it at room
temperature.
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Paul

Garrett Wollman - 24 Mar 2008 03:41 GMT
>Starch recrystallizes fastest at refrigerator temperatures.
>Refrigerating bread makes it stale faster than leaving it at room
>temperature.

Not that I've ever noticed, and I usually keep bread in the fridge
(and in the freezer).  I don't much care for moldy bread.

-GAWollman
Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Robert Bannister - 25 Mar 2008 00:22 GMT
>>Starch recrystallizes fastest at refrigerator temperatures.
>>Refrigerating bread makes it stale faster than leaving it at room
>>temperature.
>
> Not that I've ever noticed, and I usually keep bread in the fridge
> (and in the freezer).  I don't much care for moldy bread.

I'm with you. I've also read somewhere that keeping bread in the fridge
will make it go mouldy quicker. Neither this nor the
getting-stale-faster accords with my experience, so I'll continue to
keep it in the fridge.

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Rob Bannister

Mike Lyle - 25 Mar 2008 15:47 GMT
>>> Starch recrystallizes fastest at refrigerator temperatures.
>>> Refrigerating bread makes it stale faster than leaving it at room
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> getting-stale-faster accords with my experience, so I'll continue to
> keep it in the fridge.

I think that's the climate difference at work. I suspect that W.A.
drying out is a different kind of staling from the cool climate kind
which Paul bears expert witness is a question of the recrystallization
of starch.

Similarly, perhaps, (I'm conjecturing) in WA leaving bread out will
cause it to get too dry for moulds to grow as readily as they would in
the moist atmosphere of a bag in the frigo or the in-betweenity of an
English bread-bin.

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Paul Wolff - 25 Mar 2008 20:43 GMT
>Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>which Paul bears expert witness is a question of the recrystallization
>of starch.

Staling will be a matter of loss of perceptible moistness either way;
either taken up into the air by evaporation, or taken up into the starch
as water of recrystallization.  Presumably the two processes compete.

>Similarly, perhaps, (I'm conjecturing) in WA leaving bread out will
>cause it to get too dry for moulds to grow as readily as they would in
>the moist atmosphere of a bag in the frigo or the in-betweenity of an
>English bread-bin.

Pass.  And even in dry air I'd not be too surprised to hear that an
earnest mould can get by on what the starch has taken.
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Paul

irwell - 25 Mar 2008 22:14 GMT
>>Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>Pass.  And even in dry air I'd not be too surprised to hear that an
>earnest mould can get by on what the starch has taken.

A little bit of pencillium notatum is good for you.

We leave our bread in the breadbin with the cut end
down, resting on wax paper, seems to take care of staleness,
but we do use it up within about three days of baking.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 24 Mar 2008 12:21 GMT
>Refrigerating bread makes it stale faster than leaving it at room
>temperature.

In my experience to keep bread in a refrigerator it needs to be
in a sealed plastic bag to keep the air from it.

I use plastic clips as a very easy means of getting an
adequately airtight seal on a bag of bread (and anything else
that benefits from being sealed).

Clips:
http://www.lakeland.co.uk/product.aspx/!2899

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

John Holmes - 24 Mar 2008 12:27 GMT
>> Refrigerating bread makes it stale faster than leaving it at room
>> temperature.
>
> In my experience to keep bread in a refrigerator it needs to be
> in a sealed plastic bag to keep the air from it.

I've found the same as Paul says. Refrigerated bread goes hard and dry,
no matter how well I seal the bag. But freezing and thawing seems to
work well.

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John
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at tpg dot com dot au

James Silverton - 24 Mar 2008 13:18 GMT
Peter  wrote  on Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:21:09 +0000:

??>> Refrigerating bread makes it stale faster than leaving it
??>> at room temperature.

PDB> In my experience to keep bread in a refrigerator it needs
PDB> to be in a sealed plastic bag to keep the air from it.

PDB> I use plastic clips as a very easy means of getting an
PDB> adequately airtight seal on a bag of bread (and anything
PDB> else that benefits from being sealed).

PDB> Clips:
PDB> http://www.lakeland.co.uk/product.aspx/!2899

You can freeze bread satisfactorily in a clipped plastic bag.
Sliced bread can be toasted without defrosting. Thawing
techniques for other breads are quite varied. For example,
placing in a cold oven and allowing it to come to the usual
cooking temperature (350° F) works for bagels.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Robert Bannister - 25 Mar 2008 00:33 GMT
> You can freeze bread satisfactorily in a clipped plastic bag. Sliced
> bread can be toasted without defrosting. Thawing techniques for other
> breads are quite varied. For example, placing in a cold oven and
> allowing it to come to the usual cooking temperature (350° F) works for
> bagels.

I've never tried bagels as I don't like them, but ordinary bread rolls
seem to work quite well in a pre-heated oven at 200° C for 6-7 minutes.
A whole frozen loaf, however, does need a bit of thawing first.
Signature

Rob Bannister

James Silverton - 25 Mar 2008 00:49 GMT
>> You can freeze bread satisfactorily in a clipped plastic bag.
>> Sliced bread can be toasted without defrosting. Thawing
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 200° C for 6-7 minutes. A whole frozen loaf, however, does
> need a bit of thawing first.

You probably saw that I said thawing techniques were quite
varied. For many breads a preliminary nuking before using a
conventional oven is useful. You cannot defrost breads
satisfactorily using a microwave, AFAIK.
Another example is the toasted bagel; before you can safely
slice a frozen bagel, nuking for 30 seconds is appropriate. It
can then be toasted.

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Jim Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Mike Barnes - 25 Mar 2008 08:36 GMT
In alt.usage.english, James Silverton wrote:
>You cannot defrost breads satisfactorily using a microwave, AFAIK.

We can. We're quite satisfied with the bread defrosted in our (old, lo-
tech) microwave. A home-frozen half (365g, 13oz) of a home-made loaf,
nuked for 2.5 minutes on Defrost, rested for a couple of minutes. Not
significantly different from how it was when it went into the freezer
just after baking and cooling.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

James Silverton - 25 Mar 2008 14:04 GMT
Mike  wrote  on Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:36:34 +0000:

MB> In alt.usage.english, James Silverton wrote:
??>> You cannot defrost breads satisfactorily using a
??>> microwave, AFAIK.

MB> We can. We're quite satisfied with the bread defrosted in
MB> our (old, lo- tech) microwave. A home-frozen half (365g,
MB> 13oz) of a home-made loaf, nuked for 2.5 minutes on
MB> Defrost, rested for a couple of minutes. Not significantly
MB> different from how it was when it went into the freezer
MB> just after baking and cooling.

Possibly, my statement about defrosting bread in a microwave was
too sweeping. You can do it with care and some attention but I
have had a number of disasters with dinner rolls (sour dough).

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
irwell - 25 Mar 2008 15:41 GMT
> Mike  wrote  on Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:36:34 +0000:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>E-mail, with obvious alterations:
>not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

He who sweeps gets plonked, JS two days ago.
Frank ess - 25 Mar 2008 17:04 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, James Silverton wrote:
>> You cannot defrost breads satisfactorily using a microwave, AFAIK.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> minutes. Not significantly different from how it was when it went
> into the freezer just after baking and cooling.

Frozen LaBrea rolls respond well to 30 seconds of "Add A Minute"*
nyewking; by the time you've remove the roll from the oven and sliced
it, added the elongated barbecued burger meat, sweet pickle relish and
mustard, it's as if freshly baked. Mmmm mmmm.

*My favorite feature, microwavely speaking.

Signature

Frank ess

Mike Barnes - 25 Mar 2008 17:12 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Frank ess wrote:
>Frozen LaBrea rolls respond well to 30 seconds of "Add A Minute"*
>nyewking; by the time you've remove the roll from the oven and sliced
>it, added the elongated barbecued burger meat, sweet pickle relish and
>mustard, it's as if freshly baked. Mmmm mmmm.
>
>*My favorite feature, microwavely speaking.

Go on then, explain 30 seconds of "Add A Minute". (On our microwave, to
add a minute, we simply turn the timer knob 45 degrees at any time. For
half a minute, half that.)

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Frank ess - 26 Mar 2008 00:36 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Frank ess wrote:
>> Frozen LaBrea rolls respond well to 30 seconds of "Add A Minute"*
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> microwave, to add a minute, we simply turn the timer knob 45
> degrees at any time. For half a minute, half that.)

We have a Kenmore (Sears) with touchpad controls. Along with the
expected numbers and "Defrost", etc., there is the "Add A Minute" that
starts nuking immediately, counting down from 59. No need to
dit-dit-Start for cooking time; if you know what thirty seconds feels
like, turn around from whatever you're doing and open the door.

Also present is the "Popcorn" button. Every popcorn package I ever
bought admonishes one to not use the Popcorn setting. Do manufacturers
of microwaves not know how destructive it can be, an unmonitored
popcorn pop?

Signature

Frank ess

Mike Barnes - 26 Mar 2008 08:56 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Frank ess wrote:

>> In alt.usage.english, Frank ess wrote:
>>> Frozen LaBrea rolls respond well to 30 seconds of "Add A Minute"*
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Start for cooking time; if you know what thirty seconds feels like,
>turn around from whatever you're doing and open the door.

That's more-or-less what I thought. Our preference is for an oven where
you don't have to dit-dit-Start for anything. Two rotating knobs (Power
and Timer), and two clunky buttons (Start and Open), is nice and simple.

>Also present is the "Popcorn" button. Every popcorn package I ever
>bought admonishes one to not use the Popcorn setting. Do manufacturers
>of microwaves not know how destructive it can be, an unmonitored
>popcorn pop?

Sorry, I can't help you there. I've not come across a "popcorn" button
before. What is the "popcorn" button supposed to do, what happens when
you use it, and why don't the manufacturers of popcorn and microwaves
co-operate better?

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Jitze - 26 Mar 2008 19:49 GMT
>Sorry, I can't help you there. I've not come across a "popcorn" button
>before. What is the "popcorn" button supposed to do, what happens when
>you use it, and why don't the manufacturers of popcorn and microwaves
>co-operate better?

Oooh - the "Popcorn" button on a microwave - marvellous invention
which has saved many lives.

A leading cause of death in the home environment is smoke inhalation
associated with domestic fires. The mortality rate  can be reduced
significantly with smoke alarms, but the efficacy of the latter is
severely compromised by failure of these alarms  - triggered by
widespread failure to renew the batteries on time.

The "Popcorn" button on the microwave  is a cleverly disguised tester
for smoke alarms. Sublime stimulation and subtle psychological
manipulation of the population  are employed (...remember how
good that buttered popcorn used to taste when we'd got to the
movies for a CinemaScope (tm) extravaganza) to cause the homeowner
to buy a paper bag at the supermarket labelled "Microwave
Popocorn" and insert it into the subject machine and nuke it.

The resulting test of the smoke alarm serves as a plangent
reminder to replace the batteries if it fails to go off[1].  The
Popcorn button on the Microwave is one of the 20th Century's
greatest inventions for extending the life expectancy of
our population.

[1] Actualy, if it doesn't go off, it isn't plangent I suppose.
But at least I got to use the word.

Jitze
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 26 Mar 2008 20:53 GMT
>The
>Popcorn button on the Microwave is one of the 20th Century's
>greatest inventions for extending the life expectancy of
>our population.

It also extends the life expectancy of Microwave manufacturing
companies -- all those replacements for "misused"[1] Microwaves.

[1] "Abused" might also fit.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Robin Bignall - 26 Mar 2008 23:53 GMT
>>Sorry, I can't help you there. I've not come across a "popcorn" button
>>before. What is the "popcorn" button supposed to do, what happens when
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>severely compromised by failure of these alarms  - triggered by
>widespread failure to renew the batteries on time.

My smoke alarms beep about once every half-hour when the batteries are
getting low.  A beep just as you're falling asleep is a good incentive
to change the batteries the next day.  

>The "Popcorn" button on the microwave  is a cleverly disguised tester
>for smoke alarms.

I've never seen a British microwave with a popcorn button.  I don't
think I've ever eaten popcorn other than at a cinema or fairground
when I was quite young.  I recently tested my smoke alarms with a new
combi-microwave and fan-assisted counter-top oven.  I didn't RTFM
because it was replacing an identical one that had worn out with use,
and forgot to do an open-window burn cycle at 200 deg C to remove the
remnants of oil used in its manufacture.  Alarms on all three floors
went off, and my roast chicken was a little smoked.
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Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Nick - 27 Mar 2008 01:26 GMT
>>> Sorry, I can't help you there. I've not come across a "popcorn" button
>>> before. What is the "popcorn" button supposed to do, what happens when
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> getting low.  A beep just as you're falling asleep is a good incentive
> to change the batteries the next day.  

One of the nice things we got in some building work we had done was a
pair of mains powered smoke alarms - one on each floor - which are
linked together: if one goes off so does the other.

And they don't wake you at 3 in the morning to complain about their
batteries.
JF - 27 Mar 2008 09:09 GMT
> I recently tested my smoke alarms with a new
>combi-microwave and fan-assisted counter-top oven.

Counter top ovens are something else that are going through the process
of being deinvented in England. Most Essex barn electrical retailers
have combis coming out of their ears but trying to buy an ordinary oven
is getting difficult.

Amazon sell them.
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James Follett

Robin Bignall - 27 Mar 2008 23:48 GMT
>> I recently tested my smoke alarms with a new
>>combi-microwave and fan-assisted counter-top oven.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Amazon sell them.

That's where I got mine from, Jimbo.  They're about a third of the
price they were 5 years ago.
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Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Mike Lyle - 28 Mar 2008 18:31 GMT
>>> I recently tested my smoke alarms with a new
>>> combi-microwave and fan-assisted counter-top oven.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> That's where I got mine from, Jimbo.  They're about a third of the
> price they were 5 years ago.

Surely they have them at Aggros? .. no, by heaven! Can't find them in
their winter catalogue.

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Mike.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 28 Mar 2008 19:52 GMT
>>>> I recently tested my smoke alarms with a new
>>>> combi-microwave and fan-assisted counter-top oven.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Surely they have them at Aggros? .. no, by heaven! Can't find them in
>their winter catalogue.

They no longer Curry favour either.
http://www.currys.co.uk/

However:
http://www.johnlewis.com/230364384/Product.aspx

   DeLonghi Eo1200W Mini Oven and Grill,

   Dimensions     H23 x W45.5 x D36cm
                     
   Oven capacity  12.5L
                     
   Wattage        1400W

Or with more functions and 2 hotplates on top:
http://www.johnlewis.com/230420487/Product.aspx

   Russell Hobbs Mini Kitchen Mini Oven, 13824

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

R H Draney - 28 Mar 2008 20:31 GMT
BrE filted:

>Or with more functions and 2 hotplates on top:
>http://www.johnlewis.com/230420487/Product.aspx
>
>    Russell Hobbs Mini Kitchen Mini Oven, 13824

Nominative determinism?...r

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What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?

Robin Bignall - 28 Mar 2008 22:41 GMT
>>>>> I recently tested my smoke alarms with a new
>>>>> combi-microwave and fan-assisted counter-top oven.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
>    Russell Hobbs Mini Kitchen Mini Oven, 13824

Neither of these is a combi fan-assisted oven AND microwave.  The one
I have is
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-NN-A554W-1000W-Quartz-Microwave/dp/B0002JSTBQ/
ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen&qid=1206740282&sr=1-1

http://tinyurl.com/3d8zab
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Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 28 Mar 2008 23:56 GMT
>>>>>> I recently tested my smoke alarms with a new
>>>>>> combi-microwave and fan-assisted counter-top oven.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
>Neither of these is a combi fan-assisted oven AND microwave.

True. JF was bemoaning the difficulty of buying an ordinary
counter top oven.

>  The one
>I have is
>http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-NN-A554W-1000W-Quartz-Microwave/dp/B0002JSTBQ/
ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen&qid=1206740282&sr=1-1

>http://tinyurl.com/3d8zab

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Frances Kemmish - 29 Mar 2008 14:05 GMT
> I've never seen a British microwave with a popcorn button.  I don't
> think I've ever eaten popcorn other than at a cinema or fairground
> when I was quite young.  

Did you eat popcorn at a cinema when you were young? I can't remember
ever getting anything but an ice-cream. The first time I ever had
popcorn was at the Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen. I broke a tooth on an
unpopped kernel.

Fran
Robin Bignall - 29 Mar 2008 22:35 GMT
>> I've never seen a British microwave with a popcorn button.  I don't
>> think I've ever eaten popcorn other than at a cinema or fairground
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>popcorn was at the Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen. I broke a tooth on an
>unpopped kernel.

Ice-cream and possibly potato crisps, Fran.  I think the only time
I've ever had popcorn was at the Goose Fair, getting on for 60 years
ago.
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Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Peter Moylan - 27 Mar 2008 13:02 GMT
> manipulation of the population  are employed (...remember how
> good that buttered popcorn used to taste when we'd got to the
> movies for a CinemaScope (tm) extravaganza)

I find that I'm watching fewer films as the years go by. It's getting
harder to find theatres that aren't polluted with that hideous popcorn
smell.

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Mike Lyle - 26 Mar 2008 22:05 GMT
[...]

> That's more-or-less what I thought. Our preference is for an oven
> where you don't have to dit-dit-Start for anything. Two rotating
> knobs (Power and Timer), and two clunky buttons (Start and Open), is
> nice and simple.

You'd like my twenty-three-year-old Panasonic, then. It's so old, its
timer is clockwork. (In fact, what you describe quite possibly /is/
mine, two clunky buttons and all.) I'm dreading the day I break the
revolving dish, as I'm sure I won't find a replacement this late in the
piece.

>> Also present is the "Popcorn" button. Every popcorn package I ever
>> bought admonishes one to not use the Popcorn setting. Do
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> you use it, and why don't the manufacturers of popcorn and microwaves
> co-operate better?

Sounds insane: surely it depends how much corn you put in?

Re Jitze's contribution, we once had the firemen automatically round to
the office and had to evacuate the whole building, right when we were
trying to get a newspaper and a daily website out, because a young
colleague warmed up a baked potato in our microwave oven. I had drowned
the fuming cinder (the spud, not the colleague) in the sink before
leaving, but even so, the pall of smoke was impressive.

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Mike.

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Oleg Lego - 27 Mar 2008 04:00 GMT
>[...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Sounds insane: surely it depends how much corn you put in?

Don't think so. a small amount seems to take the same time as a large
amount.

>Re Jitze's contribution, we once had the firemen automatically round to
>the office and had to evacuate the whole building, right when we were
>trying to get a newspaper and a daily website out, because a young
>colleague warmed up a baked potato in our microwave oven. I had drowned
>the fuming cinder (the spud, not the colleague) in the sink before
>leaving, but even so, the pall of smoke was impressive.

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WCdnE

Robert Bannister - 26 Mar 2008 00:53 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, James Silverton wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> significantly different from how it was when it went into the freezer
> just after baking and cooling.

Surely you lose the crispness of the crust.

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Rob Bannister

DavidW - 26 Mar 2008 01:11 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, James Silverton wrote:
>> You cannot defrost breads satisfactorily using a microwave, AFAIK.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> minutes. Not significantly different from how it was when it went
> into the freezer just after baking and cooling.

I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than putting it in
the fridge or on the kitchen bench. Bread is relatively light and spongy and
doesn't stay frozen for long outside the freezer. The commercial garlic bread I
get goes straight from the freezer into a conventional oven (for heating then
serving, not defrosting). I'd probably put a frozen slice of bread straight into
the toaster too.
Mike Barnes - 26 Mar 2008 09:06 GMT
In alt.usage.english, DavidW wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, James Silverton wrote:
>>> You cannot defrost breads satisfactorily using a microwave, AFAIK.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than putting it in
>the fridge or on the kitchen bench.

You must have a very organised life. When I take bread out of the
freezer I want to start slicing, spreading, and eating it straight away.

> Bread is relatively light and spongy and
>doesn't stay frozen for long outside the freezer.

More than a couple of seconds is too long if I'm standing there with the
bread knife in my hand.

Yes, I know I could slice the bread before freezing, but with the amount
of bread I freeze simultaneously, slicing would then become a chore
instead of a pleasure. And I like to be able to vary the thickness
according to the number of slices required compared with the amount of
bread available. Also pre-slicing would solve a problem I don't have,
because defrosting in the microwave works well for me.

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Sara Lorimer - 26 Mar 2008 21:01 GMT
> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than putting it in
> the fridge or on the kitchen bench.

Kitchen bench? Is that what I call a counter? Or do you eat a lot of
pressed sandwiches?

(The sandwiches I mean must have a name, but I can't remember it. These
fellas:
<http://www.thegastronaut.com/Bum_Sandwich_recipe.htm>)

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SML

DavidW - 26 Mar 2008 23:11 GMT
>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
>> putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
>
> Kitchen bench? Is that what I call a counter?

Probably. Kitchens have benches, not counters, in these parts. Counters exist
only in shops, banks etc.

> Or do you eat a lot of
> pressed sandwiches?

No, not too many.

(AuE)
Skitt - 26 Mar 2008 23:25 GMT
>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
>>> putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Probably. Kitchens have benches, not counters, in these parts.
> Counters exist only in shops, banks etc.

Ah, in these parts benches exist at bus stops and at picnic tables.  Oh, and
often along the sides of basketball courts, so that some players can be
benched.

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Living in The Heart of the Bay
http://www.ci.hayward.ca.us/

Sara Lorimer - 27 Mar 2008 01:47 GMT
> >>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
> >>> putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> often along the sides of basketball courts, so that some players can be
> benched.

We do have work benches, though. Or some people do. Me, I have a hammer
and a screwdriver around here somewhere.

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SML

Skitt - 27 Mar 2008 01:59 GMT
>>>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
>>>>> putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> We do have work benches, though. Or some people do. Me, I have a
> hammer and a screwdriver around here somewhere.

Right, workbenches do exist, but they are in workshops and parts of garages
that serve as workshops.  We don't have a workshop or a garage area serving
as one in our house.  I used to have workbenches in a few garages of our
previous houses, though.  Handy things, they are.
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Skitt
has lived in these places:
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/places.html

Oleg Lego - 27 Mar 2008 04:02 GMT
>> >>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
>> >>> putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>We do have work benches, though. Or some people do. Me, I have a hammer
>and a screwdriver around here somewhere.

All mine are workbenches, not work benches, which I would take as an
item to sit on while working.

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WCdnE

Mike Barnes - 27 Mar 2008 00:09 GMT
In alt.usage.english, DavidW wrote:

>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
>>> putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
>>
>> Kitchen bench? Is that what I call a counter?
>
>Probably. Kitchens have benches, not counters, in these parts.

And in these parts they have "worktops".

>Counters exist
>only in shops, banks etc.

And on Ludo boards.

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Amethyst Deceiver - 27 Mar 2008 12:25 GMT
> >> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
> >> putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Probably. Kitchens have benches, not counters, in these parts. Counters exist
> only in shops, banks etc.

My first thought on reading "kitchen bench" is that you leave the bread
on a seat. For me, the thing is a worktop.
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Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Bob Cunningham - 27 Mar 2008 13:37 GMT
> > >> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
> > >> putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> My first thought on reading "kitchen bench" is that you leave the bread
> on a seat. For me, the thing is a worktop.

I seem to remember that when I was very young and in Utah
and Washington, everyone called the work area in the kitchen
that I would now call the counter, the "sink".  The "sink"
was the built-in basin where you washed the dishes, but it
was also the counter area adjoining that sink.

A typical exchange might have been

   "What should I do with these dirty dishes?"
   "Put 'em on the sink; I'll take care of 'em later."

But I agree that a kitchen bench would be a bench in the
kitchen that people could sit on.
JF - 27 Mar 2008 14:13 GMT
>But I agree that a kitchen bench would be a bench in the
>kitchen that people could sit on.

And why not? I'm all in favour of taking a close look at all these
benchmarks that get touted about as evidence of how things are getting
better.
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DavidW - 28 Mar 2008 00:28 GMT
>>>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
>>>>> putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> But I agree that a kitchen bench would be a bench in the
> kitchen that people could sit on.

AFAICT, around here (Melbourne, Aus) 'bench' is rarely used as something to sit
on, to the point where it seems a funny usage to me. I can't think of where it's
used that way other than in local football games where a player taken off the
ground goes to the bench (or is 'benched'). A bench here is primarily a flat
surface on which you work or put things, except people. 'Park bench' could be in
use here as a unit (though I can't recall it), but without the 'park' I think it
would be far more likely to be called a seat.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 28 Mar 2008 00:38 GMT
>>>>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
>>>>>> putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>use here as a unit (though I can't recall it), but without the 'park' I think it
>would be far more likely to be called a seat.

A quick google suggests that "bench" is still in use in
connection with judges and courts in Australia.

For example:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23399768-17044,00.html

   Before embarking on a 19-year career on the County Court
   bench, Judge Strong worked as a Crown prosecutor, a
   barrister and a solicitor.

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DavidW - 28 Mar 2008 00:54 GMT
>> AFAICT, around here (Melbourne, Aus) 'bench' is rarely used as
>> something to sit on, to the point where it seems a funny usage to
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>    bench, Judge Strong worked as a Crown prosecutor, a
>    barrister and a solicitor.

Yes, I missed that one. I wonder what exactly the bench is in that case.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 28 Mar 2008 12:38 GMT
>>> AFAICT, around here (Melbourne, Aus) 'bench' is rarely used as
>>> something to sit on, to the point where it seems a funny usage to
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Yes, I missed that one. I wonder what exactly the bench is in that case.

It is a figurative use of "bench", that is, the physical seat
that a judge sits on in court.

Another original physical feature of the courtroom that is used
figuratively is "bar".

OED:

   bench, n.

   2. a. The seat where the judges sit in court; the judge's
   seat, or seat of justice; hence, the office or dignity of a
   judge, as in 'to be raised to the bench.'
 
   b. Hence, the place where justice is administered: orig.
   applied to The (Court of) Common Bench, or (later) Common
   Pleas at Westminster, Anglo-Fr. le baunc, L. bancum; also
   The (Court of) King's or Queen's Bench, in which originally
   the sovereign presided, and which followed him in his
   movements. (These now form divisions of the High Court of
   Judicature.)
   
   c. Any court of justice; a tribunal.
   
   d. The judges or magistrates collectively, or the judge or
   magistrate sitting in the seat of justice.

Then:

   bar, n.1

   * In a court of justice.
   
   22. a. The barrier or wooden rail marking off the immediate
   precinct of the judge's seat, at which prisoners are
   stationed for arraignment, trial, or sentence.
   
   b. fig. A tribunal, e.g. that of reason, public opinion,
   conscience.
   
   23. a. This barrier, as the place at which all the business
   of the court was transacted, soon became synonymous with:
   Court; esp. in phr. at (the) bar: in court, in open court.
   trial at bar: a trial before the full court in which the
   action or indictment is brought; in England, the Queen's
   Bench Division.
   
   b. A (particular) court of law, esp. in the phr. to
   practise at (such a) bar. [Compare 25-26.]
   
   ** In the Inns of Court.
   
   {dag}24. A barrier or partition separating the seats of the
   benchers or readers from the rest of the hall, to which
   students, after they had attained a certain standing, were
   'called' from the body of the hall, for the purpose of
   taking a principal part in the mootings or exercises of the
   house. Obs. See BARRISTER. Hence the phrases:{em}to be
   called to the bar: to be admitted a barrister. {dag}to cast
   over the bar: to deprive of the status of a barrister, to
   disbar; gen. to reject.
   After 1600, when utter-barristers, as well as sergeants and
   apprentices-at-law were allowed to plead in the law-courts,
   bar in these phrases seems to have been popularly assumed to
   mean the bar in a court of justice, outside of which
   ordinary barristers appear to plead, while King's Counsel
   and Sergeants-at-Law have places within it. Hence the mod.
   phrase to be called within the bar: to be appointed King's
   (or Queen's) Counsel.
   
   25. a. The whole body of barristers, or spec. the barristers
   practising in a particular court, circuit, or country. (Cf.
   23b.)
   
   b. The counsel retained in a particular case.
   
   26. abstractly (combining 23 and 24): Occupation as counsel
   in a court of justice; the profession of a barrister.

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Bob Cunningham - 28 Mar 2008 01:11 GMT
> >>>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
> >>>>> putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> use here as a unit (though I can't recall it), but without the 'park' I think it
> would be far more likely to be called a seat.

I'm also familiar with benches that no one normally sits on.
The classic cobbler's bench comes to mind.  But many men
like to have a workbench in the garage where they sit on a
stool at the bench and have fun with their hobbies.  When I
worked for a while as a radio mechanic for an airline after
World War II, we had benches on which we worked on radio
gear, and we also had stools to sit on while we worked.

In Salt Lake City, there's an area where ancient Lake
Bonneville deposited silt near its shore, forming an
extensive relatively flat area that plunged to a greater
depth a few miles from the shore.  When I was a boy, that
higher level was known as "the bench", and it was considered
a superior place to live.  (Even though the Utah State
Penitentiary was then--but no longer is--up on the bench on
21st South.)

British legislators have benches that they sit on.  The
front bench is apparently a prestigious place to sit, while
the backbench is for the rank-and-file members.  

Yes, "front bench" is written open, while "backbench" is
closed, according to the _Collegiate_; I wonder why.  The
_New Shorter Oxford_ has "back-bench" and "front bench";
again, I wonder why.
DavidW - 28 Mar 2008 01:33 GMT
> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:28:50 +1100, "DavidW"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> front bench is apparently a prestigious place to sit, while
> the backbench is for the rank-and-file members.

It's the same in Australia. Ministers and shadow ministers are on their
respective front benches and everyone else is on the back benches. But these
(and the usage for judges) seem to be special cases that we probably inherited
from their British origins. When I've heard the more general usage as a long
surface for several people to sit on, such as park bench, I've supposed that it
was primarily American usage.

> Yes, "front bench" is written open, while "backbench" is
> closed, according to the _Collegiate_; I wonder why.  The
> _New Shorter Oxford_ has "back-bench" and "front bench";
> again, I wonder why.

Yes, "backbench" moderately outnumbers "back bench" in Australia according to
Google, but "front bench" far outnumbers "frontbench".
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 28 Mar 2008 12:40 GMT
>When I've heard the more general usage as a long
>surface for several people to sit on, such as park bench, I've supposed that it
>was primarily American usage.

In my experience that usage is normal in the UK.

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(in alt.usage.english)

CDB - 28 Mar 2008 01:35 GMT
>>>>>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other
>>>>>>> than putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> _New Shorter Oxford_ has "back-bench" and "front bench";
> again, I wonder why.

I would guess that that's for attributive use.  Backbench Members.  I
don't think "back benches" would be hyphenated or run together.
irwell - 28 Mar 2008 02:33 GMT
>>>>>>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other
>>>>>>>> than putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>I would guess that that's for attributive use.  Backbench Members.  I
>don't think "back benches" would be hyphenated or run together.

jF has probably, but any others ever been on a charabanc?
Nick Spalding - 28 Mar 2008 09:49 GMT
irwell wrote, in <rliou3dkqi43b2015d93kjk0r4gek6ence@4ax.com>
on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:33:30 -0700:

> jF has probably, but any others ever been on a charabanc?

Raises hand.
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BrE/IrE

JF - 28 Mar 2008 10:59 GMT
>irwell wrote, in <rliou3dkqi43b2015d93kjk0r4gek6ence@4ax.com>
> on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:33:30 -0700:
>
>> jF has probably, but any others ever been on a charabanc?
>
>Raises hand.

And I've ridden in a pantechnicon.        Jim Follett
irwell - 28 Mar 2008 15:54 GMT
>>irwell wrote, in <rliou3dkqi43b2015d93kjk0r4gek6ence@4ax.com>
>> on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:33:30 -0700:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>And I've ridden in a pantechnicon.
      Jim Follett

And me, a moving experience,
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 28 Mar 2008 12:43 GMT
>irwell wrote, in <rliou3dkqi43b2015d93kjk0r4gek6ence@4ax.com>
> on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:33:30 -0700:
>
>> jF has probably, but any others ever been on a charabanc?
>
>Raises hand.

Me too.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Jitze - 28 Mar 2008 21:23 GMT
>irwell wrote, in <rliou3dkqi43b2015d93kjk0r4gek6ence@4ax.com>
> on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:33:30 -0700:
>
>> jF has probably, but any others ever been on a charabanc?
>
>Raises hand.

Me too, the basic chassis and engine were even manufactured
by Messr's Rolls and Royce and saw service in The Great War,
a very fine machine further described at

http://home.znet.com/couperus/Rolls/

A true charabanc in that it sported 5 bancs, one behind the other.
They were hard wooden benches, which could be extremely uncomfortable
for schoolboy posteriors over long distances through the African bush.
It still exists today, but has been restored/rebuilt from the
ground up to be a more elegant conveyance in keeping with
its marque.

I believe I have also ridden in one in Leftpondia which would
qualify under that name, but it isn't called that in these shores

http://www.glacierparkinformation.com/redbus/IMGP1846.JPG

Also a true charabance in that its primamry purpose is conveying
holiday-makers, day-trippers, sight-seers etc. in a rows-of-benches
configuration.

Jitze
Jitze
Robert Bannister - 28 Mar 2008 22:52 GMT
>>irwell wrote, in <rliou3dkqi43b2015d93kjk0r4gek6ence@4ax.com>
>>on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:33:30 -0700:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> by Messr's Rolls and Royce and saw service in The Great War,
> a very fine machine further described at

Funny: that was not the kind of charabanc that came into my head. I
remember seeing horse-drawn charabancs on several occasions on the
Southend Road in the 50s - the passengers looked to be having such fun,
but I never did know where they came from.
Signature

Rob Bannister

Skitt - 28 Mar 2008 22:58 GMT
>>> jF has probably, but any others ever been on a charabanc?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> holiday-makers, day-trippers, sight-seers etc. in a rows-of-benches
> configuration.

I have a picture of me in 1949, shirtless, at the wheel of one.
Unfortunately, not much of the vehicle can bee seen, so there is no point
scanning it and putting it up for viewing.  It was a Reo(?) from around
1920, or something like that.  There was no top, and it had about five
benches, as I recall -- a big thing.  It belonged to the San Jose YMCA, and
it was used to take summer campers from the YMCA Camp near Boulder Creek to
Big Basin State Park.  That was quite a trip, as the thing went only about
20 mph, and we had to add water several times during the journey (it is a
pretty steep climb in part, going there).  I think we called it a bus.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Fred Springer - 28 Mar 2008 03:04 GMT
>> British legislators have benches that they sit on.  The
>> front bench is apparently a prestigious place to sit, while
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I would guess that that's for attributive use.  Backbench Members.  I
> don't think "back benches" would be hyphenated or run together.

Yes, MPs sit on the front bench or the back benches, but would be known
as backbenchers or (eg) a frontbench spokesman. The New Oxford Spelling
Dictionary confirms that interpretation.

I find that particular dictionary by far the most useful tool for
settling such questions -- it's unashamedly prescriptive.
Frank ess - 28 Mar 2008 03:58 GMT
>>>>>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other
>>>>>>> than putting it in the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> World War II, we had benches on which we worked on radio
> gear, and we also had stools to sit on while we worked.

I'd guess a motivated researcher could find several uses of "bench
test" related to technology. Automobile engine cylinder heads are
spoken of in terms of their performance on the "flow bench".

Signature

Frank ess

Peter Moylan - 28 Mar 2008 09:52 GMT
> Yes, "front bench" is written open, while "backbench" is
> closed, according to the _Collegiate_; I wonder why.  The
> _New Shorter Oxford_ has "back-bench" and "front bench";
> again, I wonder why.
>  
Yet, perversely, only American cars have a backseat but no frontseat.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

John Holmes - 28 Mar 2008 13:01 GMT
> British legislators have benches that they sit on.  The
> front bench is apparently a prestigious place to sit, while
> the backbench is for the rank-and-file members.

... and the cross benches are a particularly uncomfortable place to sit.

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Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

JF - 26 Mar 2008 23:14 GMT
>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than putting it in
>> the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
>
>Kitchen bench? Is that what I call a counter? Or do you eat a lot of
>pressed sandwiches?

Bench or worktop is just fine. Miele are one of the few kitchen makers
left that make a genuine shambles. End grain sycamore I think.
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James Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP) http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk

irwell - 27 Mar 2008 00:13 GMT
>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than putting it in
>>> the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Bench or worktop is just fine. Miele are one of the few kitchen makers
>left that make a genuine shambles. End grain sycamore I think.

Shambles? Is that anything to do with the slaughterhouses?
JF - 27 Mar 2008 09:20 GMT
>>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
>>>>putting it in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Shambles? Is that anything to do with the slaughterhouses?

Could be, I suppose. Shambles are butchers' benches. Such benches are
very robust, consisting of end grain wood surfaces so that bits of
timber don't get embedded in the meat. Over the years shambles usually
wear to a concave surface that helps keep haunches of meat in place so
that they don't look a shambles.

Signature

James Follett.

Frank ess - 27 Mar 2008 22:38 GMT
>>>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
>>>>> putting it in
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> usually wear to a concave surface that helps keep haunches of meat
> in place so that they don't look a shambles.

I once worked in a butcher shop where part of my charge was cleaning
the top of the butcher block. Took vigorous, prolonged abrasion with a
stiff-bristled brush, one with bristles of metal akin to those often
left behind by the monster auto-mobile streetsweepers which massage
the gutter next to my curb. The contour of the block was
well-established by the time I got to it, and not perceptibly changed
when I left it. My grip, on the other hand, was much improved.

Signature

Frank ess

Paul Wolff - 26 Mar 2008 23:19 GMT
>DavidW <no@email.provided> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Kitchen bench? Is that what I call a counter? Or do you eat a lot of
>pressed sandwiches?

The idea of bench-presses only serves to confuse.  Kitchen bench is
chemist-speak for a domestic food processing lab bench.

>(The sandwiches I mean must have a name, but I can't remember it. These
>fellas:
><http://www.thegastronaut.com/Bum_Sandwich_recipe.htm>)

Broody Mary!  Who would try to hatch a sandwich that way?  I can only
suppose that Cradock is a portmanteau of crack and buttock.
Signature

Paul

Robert Bannister - 27 Mar 2008 00:32 GMT
>>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than
>>> putting it in
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Broody Mary!  Who would try to hatch a sandwich that way?  I can only
> suppose that Cradock is a portmanteau of crack and buttock.

Don't forget the fanny.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Paul Wolff - 27 Mar 2008 01:00 GMT
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Don't forget the fanny.

Heaven... I'm in heaven. And my heart beats so that I can hardly speak.
Signature

Paul

Mike Lyle - 27 Mar 2008 20:38 GMT
>> DavidW <no@email.provided> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Broody Mary!  Who would try to hatch a sandwich that way?  I can only
> suppose that Cradock is a portmanteau of crack and buttock.

I'm awestricken to the brink of intellectual paralysis by the thought of
somebody Heston Blumenthal can call "Deranged but brilliant." (He didn't
mean Fanny.)

Signature

Mike.

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Nick - 29 Mar 2008 20:27 GMT
>> I haven't found it necessary to defrost frozen bread other than putting it in
>> the fridge or on the kitchen bench.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> fellas:
> <http://www.thegastronaut.com/Bum_Sandwich_recipe.htm>)

I think I've just found the perfect birthday present for someone.   The
book that is, not the sandwich.

Thanks!
Sara Lorimer - 29 Mar 2008 20:40 GMT
> > (The sandwiches I mean must have a name, but I can't remember it. These
> > fellas:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Thanks!

I gave it to my sister for her birthday last year.

Signature

SML

tony cooper - 25 Mar 2008 03:16 GMT
>I've never tried bagels as I don't like them,

It must be the appearance that puts you off, then.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
LFS - 25 Mar 2008 08:45 GMT
>> I've never tried bagels as I don't like them,
>
> It must be the appearance that puts you off, then.

Unfair Context Snippage Alert!

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Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Robert Bannister - 26 Mar 2008 00:58 GMT
>>> I've never tried bagels as I don't like them,
>>
>> It must be the appearance that puts you off, then.
>
> Unfair Context Snippage Alert!

To be fair, when I saw my complete message, I realised myself that the
missing "rebaking" could lead to ambiguity.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Robert Bannister - 26 Mar 2008 00:57 GMT
>>I've never tried bagels as I don't like them,
>
> It must be the appearance that puts you off, then.

Probably I've never had "real" bagels, but those I've tried were chewy
to the point of inedibility with a very hard crust to add insult to
injury. Mind you, it's hard enough to find crusty rolls that also taste
good.
Signature

Rob Bannister

Robert Bannister - 25 Mar 2008 00:29 GMT
>>Refrigerating bread makes it stale faster than leaving it at room
>>temperature.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> adequately airtight seal on a bag of bread (and anything else
> that benefits from being sealed).

I use ordinary plastic shopping bags, so all I need to do is twist the
top. Of course, I'm talking about bread I bake myself (or rather, the
machine makes it); I suppose some bought bread comes in its own plastic
wrapper.

The alternative to plastic bags in the fridge, or at least the
alternative I've most often seen used appears to be some kind of bread
bin, but whether these are metal, stone or earthenware, they all seem to
develop a smell that I find most unpleasant.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Mike Barnes - 25 Mar 2008 08:49 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote:
>[keeping bread]
>
>The alternative to plastic bags in the fridge, or at least the
>alternative I've most often seen used appears to be some kind of bread
>bin, but whether these are metal, stone or earthenware, they all seem
>to develop a smell that I find most unpleasant.

Have you tried acrylic?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0012DQQCK/microsoftcouk-21

Putting the bread keeper through the dishwasher occasionally keeps
smells at bay. If we forget, a musty smell (presumably caused by mouldy,
possibly microscopic, crumbs) does develop, but the answer is obvious.
We've had it about twelve years without problems. And we keep it on one
end, which has to be more convenient than the horizontal orientation
pictured.

What it has to do with Microsoft, I couldn't tell you.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Robert Bannister - 26 Mar 2008 01:00 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> end, which has to be more convenient than the horizontal orientation
> pictured.

The air vents would seem to defeat the purpose, which was, I thought, to
keep the air out.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Mike Barnes - 26 Mar 2008 09:52 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote:

>> In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>The air vents would seem to defeat the purpose, which was, I thought,
>to keep the air out.

I'd say the purpose was to keep the moisture in, but it amounts to the
same thing. Few bread bins are completely airtight, I imagine, and the
holes in ours clearly don't permit excessive exchange of moist inside
air and dry outside air. Keeping it on end covers up half the holes and
therefore reduces the airflow by more than half I would think.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Robert Bannister - 23 Mar 2008 22:49 GMT
>>fWIW we have used bread making machines for at least ten
>>years, make great tasting bread without all the sugar and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that was sweet in any
> way.)

Have you never been to McDo's?
Signature

Rob Bannister

Garrett Wollman - 24 Mar 2008 03:40 GMT
>> [I wrote:]
>> I don't think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that was
>> sweet in any way.)
>
>Have you never been to McDo's?

Never heard of it.

I have eaten at a large number of fast-food places, but my
almost-but-not-quite-iron-clad rule is never, ever, eat fast-food
hamburgers.  (I will make an exception for In-n-Out Burger or
occasionally for a one-store small-town place that comes recommended
by a local.)  I assume that they use the same buns on their
corn^Wchicken products, however, and I can't recall any buns being
noticeably sweet.  Perhaps that's something they serve to you
furriners and don't actually do here.

When I make my own burgers, from beef ground under what I have some
reason to believe are sanitary conditions, I usually get pepper
brioche rolls from Iggy's Bread of the World.  I definitely don't need
the fat, but they are the best sandwich rolls I've ever used.

-GAWollman

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Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Robert Bannister - 25 Mar 2008 00:37 GMT
>>>[I wrote:]
>>>I don't think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that was
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Never heard of it.

Macca's, Golden Arches or whatever. I wasn't sure whether I could spell
Macdonald's, Macdonalds', McDonalds or whatever they call themselves.

> I have eaten at a large number of fast-food places, but my
> almost-but-not-quite-iron-clad rule is never, ever, eat fast-food
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> corn^Wchicken products, however, and I can't recall any buns being
> noticeably sweet.

Macca's hamburger "buns" contain considerably more sugar than the
average bread roll, and you can taste it. This is presumably why they
put pickles and other foul substances in with the hamburger.

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Rob Bannister

Oleg Lego - 25 Mar 2008 05:51 GMT
>>>>[I wrote:]
>>>>I don't think I've ever, ever, tasted a hamburger bun that was
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>average bread roll, and you can taste it. This is presumably why they
>put pickles and other foul substances in with the hamburger.

Surely not! Though I despise the MacBurgers and their sweet buns, the
very best thing you can put on a hamburger is a heap of dill pickle
slices.

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WCdnE

R H Draney - 25 Mar 2008 08:35 GMT
Oleg Lego filted:

>>Macca's hamburger "buns" contain considerably more sugar than the
>>average bread roll, and you can taste it. This is presumably why they
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>very best thing you can put on a hamburger is a heap of dill pickle
>slices.

The very best thing you can put on a hamburger with a heap of dill pickle slices
already on it is the heel of your boot....r

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What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?

Peter Moylan - 25 Mar 2008 13:46 GMT
>> Macca's hamburger "buns" contain considerably more sugar than the
>> average bread roll, and you can taste it. This is presumably why they
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> very best thing you can put on a hamburger is a heap of dill pickle
> slices.

I like dill pickles with some foods, but on a hamburger the taste
clashes with the egg and bacon.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Mike Lyle - 25 Mar 2008 15:55 GMT
>>> Macca's hamburger "buns" contain considerably more sugar than the
>>> average bread roll, and you can taste it. This is presumably why
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I like dill pickles with some foods, but on a hamburger the taste
> clashes with the egg and bacon.

Don't forget the beetroot.

Why /are/ pickled gherkins flavoured with dill called "dill pickles"?
(I've even seen simply "dills", which is pretty self-condemnatory to an
Australian eye.) Surely the glorious variety of American cuisine has
always also offered pickled gherkins which weren't dilled, and also used
dill to flavour other things?

Is that a beetroot in your pocket?

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Mike.

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Oleg Lego - 25 Mar 2008 21:46 GMT
>>>> Macca's hamburger "buns" contain considerably more sugar than the
>>>> average bread roll, and you can taste it. This is presumably why
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> I like dill pickles with some foods, but on a hamburger the taste
>> clashes with the egg and bacon.

Bacon and eggs are OK for a sandwich, but something with them in it
should not be called a hamburger.

Peter, for some reason, I am no longer getting your posts.

>Don't forget the beetroot.

I love beetroot and never forget it. I just never have them anywhere
near a hamburger.

>Why /are/ pickled gherkins flavoured with dill called "dill pickles"?

They aren't. They are pickled cucumbers. Gherkins are sweet pickles
with no trace of dill.

>(I've even seen simply "dills", which is pretty self-condemnatory to an
>Australian eye.) Surely the glorious variety of American cuisine has
>always also offered pickled gherkins which weren't dilled, and also used
>dill to flavour other things?

Of course. The pickled gherkins are called ... well, "gherkins".
Dill is a regularly used herb around our house.

>Is that a beetroot in your pocket?

Possible. Who's asking?

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WCdnE

Robert Bannister - 26 Mar 2008 01:03 GMT
> Surely not! Though I despise the MacBurgers and their sweet buns, the
> very best thing you can put on a hamburger is a heap of dill pickle
> slices.

We've been down this road before: it is a cultural difference.
Hamburgers should have onion, beetroot, grated carrot, tomato, lettuce
and tomato ketchup.
Signature

Rob Bannister

Oleg Lego - 26 Mar 2008 06:27 GMT
>> Surely not! Though I despise the MacBurgers and their sweet buns, the
>> very best thing you can put on a hamburger is a heap of dill pickle
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Hamburgers should have onion, beetroot, grated carrot, tomato, lettuce
>and tomato ketchup.

I think we have been here. I can agree on the onion lettuce, and
tomato, provided the tomato actually tastes like a tomato.

Signature

WCdnE

Robert Bannister - 27 Mar 2008 00:34 GMT
> I think we have been here. I can agree on the onion lettuce, and
> tomato, provided the tomato actually tastes like a tomato.

I thought the tomato varieties with flavour had become extinct due to
supermarket pressure for tomatoes with a long shelf life.
Signature

Rob Bannister

Oleg Lego - 27 Mar 2008 04:45 GMT
>> I think we have been here. I can agree on the onion lettuce, and
>> tomato, provided the tomato actually tastes like a tomato.
>
>I thought the tomato varieties with flavour had become extinct due to
>supermarket pressure for tomatoes with a long shelf life.

Not quite extinct, at least in this area. I can sometimes find red
(actual red.. really!) tomatoes that taste like tomatoes. The strange
thing about them is that they are usually comparable in price to the
hard, pale, greenish pink things that are related to tomatoes only in
the overall shape and internal structure.

Signature

WCdnE

Robert Bannister - 28 Mar 2008 00:50 GMT
>>>I think we have been here. I can agree on the onion lettuce, and
>>>tomato, provided the tomato actually tastes like a tomato.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> hard, pale, greenish pink things that are related to tomatoes only in
> the overall shape and internal structure.

OK, I'll admit I have accidentally stumbled across the odd flavoured
tomato at the market, but it's been a long time since I found any that
actually smelt like tomatoes.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Evan Kirshenbaum - 26 Mar 2008 17:59 GMT
>> Surely not! Though I despise the MacBurgers and their sweet buns,
>> the very best thing you can put on a hamburger is a heap of dill
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Hamburgers should have onion, beetroot, grated carrot, tomato,
> lettuce and tomato ketchup.

Never having had beets on a hamburger, I need to imagine it properly.
Are they raw, boiled, or pickled?  Usually in the US, it's pickled,
but usually in the US, it's not eaten on hamburgers.

I like hamburgers many different ways, but the basic way for me is
with tomato, onion, a little bit of lettuce, ketchup, and bread-and-
butter pickles.

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Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
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   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |about science.  One gets such
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   (650)857-7572                      |             Mark Twain

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Jitze - 26 Mar 2008 20:14 GMT
>I like hamburgers many different ways, but the basic way for me is
>with tomato, onion, a little bit of lettuce, ketchup, and bread-and-
>butter pickles.

Ah - I think we need some definition here of the term
"bread-and-butter pickles" for purposes of transpondial
understanding.

Being myself an import into Leftpondia, I'm not 100% sure
I know what you are referring to. I *think* this is a reference
to pickles sliced cross-wise  into small discs, and having a fairly
mild taste - neither sweet nor sour, possibly mildly dill - those
being the three main variants that I know of.

For English readers I should point out that when a sandwich
is ordered at a deli in America, it is frequently accompanied
by a dill pickle which has been quartered lengthwise and will
be maybe 4 inches long or so. Then in the supermarket
you can also buy such dill pickles whole in jars, or "sweet" pickles
but those appear to be the two main flavours. Then in addition
you can buy jars with the pickles sliced cross-wise into
discs (what I think erk is referring to above) or totaly
mashed up - in which case it is called relish and will have
a stronger sour/vinegar component rather than dill.

I haven't seen the equivalent here of what the
Dutch call a "zure bom" (sour bomb) - the closest
might be the very largel pickles you sometimes
can purchase in a delicatessen from a large jar
on the counter - but these have a far stronger
dill component and are closer to what in Amsterdam
would be called a "joodse augurk" (jewish gherkin).

But again - I am not an expert...

Jitze
LFS - 26 Mar 2008 20:20 GMT
>> I like hamburgers many different ways, but the basic way for me is
>> with tomato, onion, a little bit of lettuce, ketchup, and bread-and-
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> But again - I am not an expert...

<grin> For the best range available in Rightpondia see

http://www.empirefoodbrokers.com/main/mrselswood.htm

These are all sliced lengthways but I have seen other brands which
resemble what you describe as "bread-and-butter-pickles".

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

James Silverton - 26 Mar 2008 20:35 GMT
LFS  wrote  on Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:20:17 +0000:

L> Jitze wrote:
??>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:59:36 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
??>> <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
??>>
??>>> I like hamburgers many different ways, but the basic way
??>>> for me is with tomato, onion, a little bit of lettuce,
??>>> ketchup, and bread-and- butter pickles.
??>>
??>> Ah - I think we need some definition here of the term
??>>  "bread-and-butter pickles" for purposes of transpondial
??>> understanding.
??>>
??>> Being myself an import into Leftpondia, I'm not 100% sure
??>> I know what you are referring to. I *think* this is a
??>> reference to pickles sliced cross-wise  into small discs,
??>> and having a fairly mild taste - neither sweet nor sour,
??>> possibly mildly dill - those being the three main variants
??>> that I know of.
??>>
??>> For English readers I should point out that when a
??>> sandwich is ordered at a deli in America, it is frequently
??>> accompanied by a dill pickle which has been quartered
??>> lengthwise and will be maybe 4 inches long or so. Then in
??>> the supermarket you can also buy such dill pickles whole
??>> in jars, or "sweet" pickles but those appear to be the two
??>> main flavours. Then in addition you can buy jars with the
??>> pickles sliced cross-wise into discs (what I think erk is
??>> referring to above) or totaly mashed up - in which case it
??>> is called relish and will have a stronger sour/vinegar
??>> component rather than dill.
??>>
??>> I haven't seen the equivalent here of what the
??>> Dutch call a "zure bom" (sour bomb) - the closest
??>> might be the very largel pickles you sometimes
??>> can purchase in a delicatessen from a large jar
??>> on the counter - but these have a far stronger
??>> dill component and are closer to what in Amsterdam
??>> would be called a "joodse augurk" (jewish gherkin).
??>>
??>> But again - I am not an expert...
??>>
L> <grin> For the best range available in Rightpondia see

L> http://www.empirefoodbrokers.com/main/mrselswood.htm

L> These are all sliced lengthways but I have seen other brands
L> which resemble what you describe as
L> "bread-and-butter-pickles".

I should add that not every American likes standard dill
pickles all that much. I and a number of others prefer what the
kosher delis call "half-done"; bright green in color instead of
khaki! That being said, the standard dill pickle is most likely
to be served if you don't ask.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
LFS - 27 Mar 2008 00:01 GMT
> LFS  wrote  on Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:20:17 +0000:
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> "half-done"; bright green in color instead of khaki! That being said,
> the standard dill pickle is most likely to be served if you don't ask.

Ah, now that sounds like what I know as "new green" which Mrs E doesn't
seem to make.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Mike Lyle - 26 Mar 2008 21:35 GMT
[...]

>> I haven't seen the equivalent here of what the
>> Dutch call a "zure bom" (sour bomb) - the closest
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> These are all sliced lengthways but I have seen other brands which
> resemble what you describe as "bread-and-butter-pickles".

When I used to grow my own, I used to dice with botulism* by making
fermented pickled cucumbers. IIRC, I used dill seed rather than dill
weed, but whatever it was, they were sour and salty and utterly
delicious. I've never found any in a shop which seemed at all like them.

*I suppose I should have heat-treated them once they were ready, but I
understand that can actually increase the risk if you haven't got
special equipment.

Signature

Mike.

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Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Skitt - 26 Mar 2008 22:07 GMT
>>> I haven't seen the equivalent here of what the
>>> Dutch call a "zure bom" (sour bomb) - the closest
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> understand that can actually increase the risk if you haven't got
> special equipment.

I grew up with that sort, and sometimes they were home-made.  They can still
be bought in delis around here (the last jar we bought was from Bulgaria).
Other than that, Claussen's are pretty good, but they do use vinegar.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)
not pickled

Sara Lorimer - 27 Mar 2008 04:05 GMT
> I grew up with that sort, and sometimes they were home-made.  They can still
> be bought in delis around here (the last jar we bought was from Bulgaria).
> Other than that, Claussen's are pretty good, but they do use vinegar.

Can you get Bubbe's down there? Deeelish.

Signature

SML

Skitt - 27 Mar 2008 17:55 GMT
>> I grew up with that sort, and sometimes they were home-made.  They
>> can still be bought in delis around here (the last jar we bought was
>> from Bulgaria). Other than that, Claussen's are pretty good, but
>> they do use vinegar.
>
> Can you get Bubbe's down there? Deeelish.

Haven't seen those.  I see that they are said to be from San Francisco.
That should make them readily available in my neck of the woods, but I don't
do the shopping, so I wouldn't know.

Signature

Skitt
Living in The Heart of the Bay
http://www.ci.hayward.ca.us/

Sara Lorimer - 27 Mar 2008 18:34 GMT
> > Can you get Bubbe's down there? Deeelish.
>
> Haven't seen those.  I see that they are said to be from San Francisco.
> That should make them readily available in my neck of the woods, but I don't
> do the shopping, so I wouldn't know.

They're sold in stores that also sell soy milk and organic bananas.

Signature

SML

James Silverton - 27 Mar 2008 18:42 GMT
Sara  wrote  on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:34:14 -0700:

??>>> Can you get Bubbe's down there? Deeelish.
??>>
??>> Haven't seen those.  I see that they are said to be from
??>> San Francisco. That should make them readily available in
??>> my neck of the woods, but I don't do the shopping, so I
??>> wouldn't know.

SL> They're sold in stores that also sell soy milk and organic
SL> bananas.

Which domestic supermarkets don't sell "organic" bananas these
days? :-) I've seen the Bubbes brand too!

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Sara Lorimer - 27 Mar 2008 18:51 GMT
>  Sara  wrote  on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:34:14 -0700:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Which domestic supermarkets don't sell "organic" bananas these
> days? :-) I've seen the Bubbes brand too!

The Safeway near me just started selling organic bananas a year ago, as
part of an effort to draw in... um... people like me.

Signature

SML

Oleg Lego - 28 Mar 2008 05:17 GMT
>>  Sara  wrote  on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:34:14 -0700:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>The Safeway near me just started selling organic bananas a year ago, as
>part of an effort to draw in... um... people like me.

The Safeway we used to patronize put in a Starbuck's about a year ago,
in an apparent attempt to poison its customers. I've been back exactly
once since the renovations.

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WCdnE

Sara Lorimer - 28 Mar 2008 17:06 GMT
> The Safeway we used to patronize put in a Starbuck's about a year ago,
> in an apparent attempt to poison its customers. I've been back exactly
> once since the renovations.

Yup, mine put in a Starbucks around then, too. I still shop there. I
live one mile from Seattle -- if I boycotted all stores with Starbucks
affiliations, I'd starve.

Signature

SML

Mike Lyle - 28 Mar 2008 18:39 GMT
>> The Safeway we used to patronize put in a Starbuck's about a year
>> ago, in an apparent attempt to poison its customers. I've been back
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> live one mile from Seattle -- if I boycotted all stores with Starbucks
> affiliations, I'd starve.

ObTentacles, Sainsbury's also have Starbucks. I wonder if the former
part-own the latter, or at least their UK arm.

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Mike.

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Skitt - 27 Mar 2008 18:49 GMT
> Skitt wrote:

>>> Can you get Bubbe's down there? Deeelish.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> They're sold in stores that also sell soy milk and organic bananas.

Oh.  I don't go there.  OK, I was in one once -- in Florida.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Sara Lorimer - 27 Mar 2008 18:52 GMT
> > Skitt wrote:
>  
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Oh.  I don't go there.  OK, I was in one once -- in Florida.

I don't necessarily mean hippie co-ops. In these parts, many mainstream
grocery stores have their little fake-wood-laminate sections with
organic chocolate and flax-seed corn chips.

Signature

SML

Skitt - 27 Mar 2008 19:00 GMT
> Skitt wrote:

>>>>> Can you get Bubbe's down there? Deeelish.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> mainstream grocery stores have their little fake-wood-laminate
> sections with organic chocolate and flax-seed corn chips.

I did not know that.  Wild.

Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Mike Lyle - 27 Mar 2008 20:53 GMT
[...]
>>>> They're sold in stores that also sell soy milk and organic bananas.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I did not know that.  Wild.

All British supermarkets have organic everything, for a higher price. If
nothing else, I'd urge people to buy organic milk and free-range eggs.
It's a small thing, but it's worth it.

Signature

Mike.

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Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Skitt - 27 Mar 2008 21:00 GMT
> All British supermarkets have organic everything, for a higher price.
> If nothing else, I'd urge people to buy organic milk and free-range
> eggs. It's a small thing, but it's worth it.

Maybe I'll have a chance to do that.  Our neighborhood grocery store
(Albertson's) closed a couple of years ago, but now, finally, the old store
area is being remodeled and split in half, one half being prepared for a
British-owned grocery store.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

LFS - 27 Mar 2008 21:34 GMT
>> All British supermarkets have organic everything, for a higher price.
>> If nothing else, I'd urge people to buy organic milk and free-range
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> store area is being remodeled and split in half, one half being prepared
> for a British-owned grocery store.

Tesco?

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Skitt - 27 Mar 2008 22:06 GMT
>>> All British supermarkets have organic everything, for a higher
>>> price. If nothing else, I'd urge people to buy organic milk and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Tesco?

Could be, but I don't remember.  It was mentioned in our local newspaper a
month or so ago.  I just now sent an e-mail to the paper enquiring about
this.  We'll see.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Skitt - 27 Mar 2008 23:06 GMT
>>>> All British supermarkets have organic everything, for a higher
>>>> price. If nothing else, I'd urge people to buy organic milk and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> newspaper a month or so ago.  I just now sent an e-mail to the paper
> enquiring about this.  We'll see.

Aha!  I found it on the Web.  Yes, it is Tesco, and the name for their new
store will be
/Fresh & Easy Neighborhood Market/.

Ref.:
http://www.naibtcommercial.com/news_article.asp?ArticleID=619&NewsType=P

Signature

Skitt (AmE)
might go shopping again soon

Evan Kirshenbaum - 28 Mar 2008 17:42 GMT
>>>> Maybe I'll have a chance to do that.  Our neighborhood grocery
>>>> store (Albertson's) closed a couple of years ago, but now,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> new store will be
> /Fresh & Easy Neighborhood Market/.

One of those is going in practically across the street from our
house.

Signature

Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
   HP Laboratories                    |Those who study history are doomed
   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |to watch others repeat it.
   Palo Alto, CA  94304

   kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
   (650)857-7572

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

R H Draney - 28 Mar 2008 20:33 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>> Aha!  I found it on the Web.  Yes, it is Tesco, and the name for their
>> new store will be
>> /Fresh & Easy Neighborhood Market/.
>
>One of those is going in practically across the street from our
>house.

As of 5 March, plans were for 37 in the Phoenix area...I've seen three or four
of them as I drive around....r

Signature

What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?

JF - 28 Mar 2008 04:55 GMT
>> Our neighborhood grocery store  (Albertson's) closed a couple of
>>years ago, but now, finally, the old  store area is being remodeled
>>and split in half, one half being prepared  for a British-owned
>>grocery store.
>
>Tesco?

If it is Tesco, be warned about Tesco carrier/tote bags. They're like
Michael Jackson: white, weak, plastic and should be kept away from
children.
Signature

James Follett

Peter Moylan - 28 Mar 2008 09:57 GMT
>>> Our neighborhood grocery store  (Albertson's) closed a couple of
>>> years ago, but now, finally, the old  store area is being remodeled
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Michael Jackson: white, weak, plastic and should be kept away from
> children.

For some reason that reminds me of the John Wayne toilet paper that can
be found in India. It's rough, it's tough, and it don't take no sh.t
from Indians.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Oleg Lego - 29 Mar 2008 07:04 GMT
>>>> Our neighborhood grocery store  (Albertson's) closed a couple of
>>>> years ago, but now, finally, the old  store area is being remodeled
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>be found in India. It's rough, it's tough, and it don't take no sh.t
>from Indians.

Category error. John Wayne interacted with a different sort of
Indians.

Signature

WCdnE

R H Draney - 30 Mar 2008 09:45 GMT
Oleg Lego filted:

>>For some reason that reminds me of the John Wayne toilet paper that can
>>be found in India. It's rough, it's tough, and it don't take no sh.t
>>from Indians.
>
>Category error. John Wayne interacted with a different sort of
>Indians.

Whoosh detector activated....r

Signature

What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?

Oleg Lego - 31 Mar 2008 07:55 GMT
>Oleg Lego filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Whoosh detector activated....r

Hmm... The way I heard the joke was that an Indian (NAmI) bought some
"generic" TP, and asked what "generic" meant. He was told that it
meant it had no brand name. The next week he said, to the same
cashier, that he had a name for it; that it could be called "John
Wayne"... etc.

If something whooshed me, I am still unaware of what it was.
Explanations gladly accepted.

Signature

WCdnE

Amethyst Deceiver - 28 Mar 2008 11:53 GMT
> >> Our neighborhood grocery store  (Albertson's) closed a couple of
> >>years ago, but now, finally, the old  store area is being remodeled
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Michael Jackson: white, weak, plastic and should be kept away from
> children.

And sunlight.
Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Pat Durkin - 28 Mar 2008 15:49 GMT
>>>> Our neighborhood grocery store  (Albertson's) closed a couple of
>>>> years ago, but now, finally, the old  store area is being remodeled
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> And sunlight.

I understand there is a US grocery/supermarket chain that is introducing
a biodegradable "plastic" bag on a tryout basis.  I believe it is made
from a starch or cellulose product, which may be usable one or two
times.  I don't recall whether the TV news announcement stated whether
or not the store was already charging a recycling fee for the current
version.

As for my store, it uses very lightweight plastic for produce and frozen
goods or other goods that might leak, but has always used the brown
paper bags for carrying out the goods.  It has long encouraged shoppers
to re-use their bags, and is now selling four green canvas bags for
three dollars (the bunch).  Some fund-raising programs for local
non-profits are also selling canvas shopping bags.  No-one, to my
knowledge, is actively marketing the old net bags, which were very
accomodating to odd-shaped items.
LFS - 28 Mar 2008 16:14 GMT
>>>>> Our neighborhood grocery store  (Albertson's) closed a couple of
>>>>> years ago, but now, finally, the old  store area is being remodeled
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> knowledge, is actively marketing the old net bags, which were very
> accomodating to odd-shaped items.

I noticed today that Marks and Spencer is selling old-fashioned net
bags. They don't keep your shopping dry, though. (Very wet here, today.)

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Amethyst Deceiver - 28 Mar 2008 16:57 GMT
> > As for my store, it uses very lightweight plastic for produce and frozen
> > goods or other goods that might leak, but has always used the brown
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > knowledge, is actively marketing the old net bags, which were very
> > accomodating to odd-shaped items.

http://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/products/turtle-bags/turtle-shopping-
bag/
They ship overseas and come in a variety of colours.

> I noticed today that Marks and Spencer is selling old-fashioned net
> bags. They don't keep your shopping dry, though. (Very wet here, today.)

I got my string bag (see link above) from the wholefood shop. It doesn't
keep things dry but you can get an awful lot of shopping in it, and it
packs down small enough to go in my little backpack. Ace!

Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Pat Durkin - 28 Mar 2008 20:25 GMT
>>> As for my store, it uses very lightweight plastic for produce and
>>> frozen goods or other goods that might leak, but has always used
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> doesn't keep things dry but you can get an awful lot of shopping in
> it, and it packs down small enough to go in my little backpack. Ace!

Thanks, Linz and Laura.  I hadn't thought to do a web search.  But now
that I think about it, back in the '60s and '70s, everyone here seemed
to be doing macrame, and I think I can find a couple of acquaintances
who can do me up a bag or two.  Ah, those were the days, my friends.
Mike Barnes - 28 Mar 2008 16:22 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Pat Durkin wrote:
>I understand there is a US grocery/supermarket chain that is
>introducing a biodegradable "plastic" bag on a tryout basis.  I believe
>it is made from a starch or cellulose product, which may be usable one
>or two times.  I don't recall whether the TV news announcement stated
>whether or not the store was already charging a recycling fee for the
>current version.

The Co-op introduced biodegradable bags to the UK in 2002. AFAIK they're
still using them.

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2229698.stm

But apparently they're petroleum-based.

My local Sainsbury packs bunches of bananas in biodegradable "plastic"
bags made from (IIRC) corn. They have a somewhat milky appearance.

>As for my store, it uses very lightweight plastic for produce and
>frozen goods or other goods that might leak, but has always used the
>brown paper bags for carrying out the goods.  It has long encouraged
>shoppers to re-use their bags, and is now selling four green canvas
>bags for three dollars (the bunch).  Some fund-raising programs for
>local non-profits are also selling canvas shopping bags.

Durable re-usable bags are becoming more popular here in the UK. And on
a recent trip to a French supermarket (in France), I saw everybody using
them, and not a traditional flimsy bag in sight.

Personally I use durable bags whenever I remember to bring them. But
that's not all good news: I'm used to having a supply of flimsy bags for
re-use, and that has dried up somewhat.

>No-one, to my knowledge, is actively marketing the old net bags, which
>were very accomodating to odd-shaped items.

I prefer stiff rectangular bags that stay upright. They actually work
much better than the traditional plastic bags.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Nick Spalding - 28 Mar 2008 19:14 GMT
Mike Barnes wrote, in <t9RtNpFL1Q7HFwYk@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>
on Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:22:51 +0000:

> Durable re-usable bags are becoming more popular here in the UK. And on
> a recent trip to a French supermarket (in France), I saw everybody using
> them, and not a traditional flimsy bag in sight.

This is so in Ireland (southern) too for some years now since the
government put a tax of 15 cents, since increased to 22, on plastic ones.

I have seen them used as carry-on bags at the airport and there was a
report of one from my local supermarket chain being seen carried by a
tourist gazing at the Great Pyramid.
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Wood Avens - 28 Mar 2008 21:09 GMT
>Personally I use durable bags whenever I remember to bring them. But
>that's not all good news: I'm used to having a supply of flimsy bags for
>re-use, and that has dried up somewhat.

Without fee plastic bags from the supermarket, we'd have to buy
dustbin (AmE garbage) bags.

Signature

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 28 Mar 2008 21:59 GMT
>Without fee plastic bags from the supermarket, we'd have to buy
>dustbin (AmE garbage) bags.

Your typing fingers should be in the advertising signage
business.

Customer arrives at supermarket checkout. All purchases are
scanned and put in bags. Checkout person charges for the bags.

Customer indignant - "There's a sign outside saying 'Free
Plastic Bags."

Checkout op - "No it says 'Fee Plastic Bags' I've just charged
you the fee."

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Moylan - 29 Mar 2008 06:54 GMT
>> Personally I use durable bags whenever I remember to bring them. But
>> that's not all good news: I'm used to having a supply of flimsy bags for
>> re-use, and that has dried up somewhat.
>
> Without fee plastic bags from the supermarket, we'd have to buy
> dustbin (AmE garbage) bags.

That's been a complaint of mine for a while now. The supermarket plastic
bags are thin, light, biodegradable, and just the right size to use as a
liner for a kitchen bin. Yet we're encouraged to stop using them, and
instead to buy bloody great thick bin liners that cost too much, that
will never disintegrate in the landfill, and are made in sizes that don't
match any kitchen garbage bin in the known universe.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Mike Barnes - 29 Mar 2008 11:32 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote:

>>> Personally I use durable bags whenever I remember to bring them. But
>>> that's not all good news: I'm used to having a supply of flimsy bags for
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>will never disintegrate in the landfill, and are made in sizes that don't
>match any kitchen garbage bin in the known universe.

I'm surprised that you can't buy adequate bin liners there. Here they're
available in a wide range of sizes, from recycled or new material,
biodegradable or not, with handles or drawstrings, and much lighter than
any supermarket bag could be. Not expensive either, though obviously
more expensive than "free".

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Robin Bignall - 29 Mar 2008 22:47 GMT
>In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>any supermarket bag could be. Not expensive either, though obviously
>more expensive than "free".

The borough of Broxbourne, of which Hoddesdon is a part, has
introduced a purple bag scheme.  Each household gets one purple bag a
week, and one clear one for plastic bottles, in addition to the
receptacles for glass, paper, tins and garden waste that we already
have.  Extra purple bags can be purchased, and no other bag will be
collected by the council.
Some people are questioning the legality of the scheme.
http://www.letsrecycle.com/do/ecco.py/view_item?listid=37&listcatid=320&listitem
id=9594

Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Amethyst Deceiver - 30 Mar 2008 19:42 GMT
>In alt.usage.english, Pat Durkin wrote:
>>I understand there is a US grocery/supermarket chain that is
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>My local Sainsbury packs bunches of bananas in biodegradable "plastic"
>bags made from (IIRC) corn. They have a somewhat milky appearance.

They say they're suitable for home-composting, and my experience bears
this out.

Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Amethyst Deceiver - 28 Mar 2008 16:59 GMT
> As for my store, it uses very lightweight plastic for produce and frozen
> goods or other goods that might leak, but has always used the brown
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> knowledge, is actively marketing the old net bags, which were very
> accomodating to odd-shaped items.

Try here:
http://www.turtlebags.co.uk/index.html

Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Nick - 29 Mar 2008 20:37 GMT
> [...]
>>>>> They're sold in stores that also sell soy milk and organic bananas.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> nothing else, I'd urge people to buy organic milk and free-range eggs.
> It's a small thing, but it's worth it.

The recent astronomical hike in the price of bread doesn't seem to have
affected organic, so the premium has dropped to almost nothing in some
places for an 800g white loaf.
Amethyst Deceiver - 28 Mar 2008 11:55 GMT
> > > Skitt wrote:
> >  
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> grocery stores have their little fake-wood-laminate sections with
> organic chocolate and flax-seed corn chips.

In these parts, the organic stuff is right beside the ordinary stuff.
Sometimes it can make it harder to distinguish the organic milk from the
mas-produced, but at least I don't have to try to find a whole new
section of supermarket solely for organic. It's hard enough finding the
gluten-free section.
Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Garrett Wollman - 28 Mar 2008 18:28 GMT
>In these parts, the organic stuff is right beside the ordinary stuff.
>Sometimes it can make it harder to distinguish the organic milk from the
>mas-produced

What makes you think the organic milk isn't mass-produced?

I would suggest to you that if it's packaged in sufficient quantity to
be sold in a supermarket then it is by definition mass-produced.

-GAWollman
Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Pat Durkin - 28 Mar 2008 21:17 GMT
>> In these parts, the organic stuff is right beside the ordinary stuff.
>> Sometimes it can make it harder to distinguish the organic milk from
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I would suggest to you that if it's packaged in sufficient quantity to
> be sold in a supermarket then it is by definition mass-produced.

http://tinyurl.com/2a3wlr

Aurora farms in Colorado and Texas.

http://tinyurl.com/2tll9d

Critique of Wal*Mart, Costco and other marketers of the Aurora organic
milk.
(Whole Foods Market says Aurora's milk is "not up to our standards".)

I searched for Aurora, since they have a farm of 5000 cows in Wisconsin
(not mentioned in these two articles).  That one was shown in a TV
documentary with a milking parlor like a horizontal merry-go-round, and
it looked to hold 30 or 40 cows at a time for milking.  I have long
since ceased to be shocked at the thought of cows being milked more
often than two times daily.  I read these articles primarily to find out
if these farms administer rBGH (BST).  They insist that they don't, so
they must realize that such injections are reputed to increase the
incidence of infection and subsequent use of antibiotics.

I will have to check the Wal*Mart in my area to see if their milk is
organic, and, if so, if they carry the label "rBGH free", that many
Wisconsin farmers and their dairies support. . .even without the claim
to be an "organic" product.

My BiL says the life span of a producing cow is reduced by as much as
two years, if such a hormone is used.  The second of those articles
also wonders about the affect on the cow of just the 3-a-day milking.
Jitze - 27 Mar 2008 19:48 GMT
>> > Can you get Bubbe's down there? Deeelish.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>They're sold in stores that also sell soy milk and organic bananas.

I once darkened the portals of such a store, having been persuaded
by my firstborn that a light lunch consisting of a bean-sprout
sandwich and a small container of fresh carrot juice would do me
a power of good.

About an hour later I was struck down by a collywobble attack
of hurricane proportions that lasted some days. I *like* processed
foods containing preservatives and that have been pasteurised
or homogenized or irradiated to within an inch of their lives. So much
more healthy...

Jitze
LFS - 27 Mar 2008 00:10 GMT
> [...]
>>> I haven't seen the equivalent here of what the
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> understand that can actually increase the risk if you haven't got
> special equipment.

You've reminded me that I never did ask my mum how she made her pickled
cucumbers. Or her wonderful cucumber salad. Or her charoseth. Bum.

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Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Oleg Lego - 26 Mar 2008 20:47 GMT
>>I like hamburgers many different ways, but the basic way for me is
>>with tomato, onion, a little bit of lettuce, ketchup, and bread-and-
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>mild taste - neither sweet nor sour, possibly mildly dill - those
>being the three main variants that I know of.

Bread-and-butter pickles are classified (by me, for sure) as "sweet
pickles". I have never had any that have had even the slightest hint
of dill or garlic.

>For English readers I should point out that when a sandwich
>is ordered at a deli in America, it is frequently accompanied
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>Jitze

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WCdnE

Evan Kirshenbaum - 26 Mar 2008 21:45 GMT
>>>I like hamburgers many different ways, but the basic way for me is
>>>with tomato, onion, a little bit of lettuce, ketchup, and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Bread-and-butter pickles are classified (by me, for sure) as "sweet
> pickles".

But they're not as sweet as "sweet pickles".

> I have never had any that have had even the slightest hint of dill
> or garlic.

Let's see what MWCD11 has for "bread and butter pickle".

   The word you've entered isn't in the Collegiate Dictionary. Click
   on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search box
   at the top of this page.

   Suggestions for bread and butter pickle:
   
            1. Bandar Seri Begawan
            2. British West Indies

Hmm.  Not too helpful.  This recipe

   http://www.recipezaar.com/71203

has onion, turmeric, celery seed, and mustard seed (and, of course,
sugar, salt, and vinegar), but no dill or garlic.  Others add cloves.

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Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
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   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |the mainstream of this evening's
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Oleg Lego - 27 Mar 2008 03:59 GMT
>>>>I like hamburgers many different ways, but the basic way for me is
>>>>with tomato, onion, a little bit of lettuce, ketchup, and
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>But they're not as sweet as "sweet pickles".

Either the bread-and-butter pickles here are sweeter than those where
you are, or the sweet pickles here are less sweet, or perhaps it's
just my taste buds, but I taste no discernable difference in sweetness
between the two.

>> I have never had any that have had even the slightest hint of dill
>> or garlic.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>has onion, turmeric, celery seed, and mustard seed (and, of course,
>sugar, salt, and vinegar), but no dill or garlic.  Others add cloves.

Yup.. sweet pickles. No garlic. No dill.

Gonna make some pickle bread. Gotta find the dill dough.

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WCdnE

Mike Lyle - 27 Mar 2008 20:48 GMT
[...]
> Gonna make some pickle bread. Gotta find the dill dough.

So it was a dill dough in your pocket all along?

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Mike.

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Oleg Lego - 28 Mar 2008 05:19 GMT
>[...]
>> Gonna make some pickle bread. Gotta find the dill dough.
>
>So it was a dill dough in your pocket all along?

Along one indeed, but it weren't no dough.

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WCdnE

Skitt - 26 Mar 2008 21:05 GMT
>> I like hamburgers many different ways, but the basic way for me is
>> with tomato, onion, a little bit of lettuce, ketchup, and bread-and-
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> But again - I am not an expert...

Bread-and-butter pickles are sweet -- yecch.  I like brine dill pickles (no
vinegar).
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Skitt (AmE)

JF - 26 Mar 2008 02:16 GMT
>by a local.)  I assume that they use the same buns on their
>corn^Wchicken products, however, and I can't recall any buns being
>noticeably sweet.  Perhaps that's something they serve to you
>furriners and don't actually do here.

Hamburgers are made using baps, not buns.            Jim Follett
Garrett Wollman - 26 Mar 2008 03:07 GMT
>>[I wrote:]
>>by a local.)  I assume that they use the same buns on their
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Hamburgers are made using baps, not buns.            Jim Follett

"bap" is not in my lexicon.  ("Bap.", however, is, as an abbreviation
of "Baptist".)

-GAWollman
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Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Oleg Lego - 26 Mar 2008 06:31 GMT
>>by a local.)  I assume that they use the same buns on their
>>corn^Wchicken products, however, and I can't recall any buns being
>>noticeably sweet.  Perhaps that's something they serve to you
>>furriners and don't actually do here.
>
>Hamburgers are made using baps, not buns.            Jim Follett

Bread-Alike Pastryish Substance?

Actually, looking it up in AskOxford, I see:

noun Brit. a soft, round, flattish bread roll.

Which is pretty much what a hamburger bun is.

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WCdnE

Mike Lyle - 26 Mar 2008 21:43 GMT
[...]
>> Hamburgers are made using baps, not buns.            Jim Follett
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Which is pretty much what a hamburger bun is.

I know we've been round this mulberry bush a few times over the years,
but in most versions and relations of BrE, including StandardE, a bun is
sweet. See "hot cross bun", for example, though for some it also
includes "fairy cakes".

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Mike.

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Oleg Lego - 27 Mar 2008 03:56 GMT
>[...]
>>> Hamburgers are made using baps, not buns.            Jim Follett
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>but in most versions and relations of BrE, including StandardE, a bun is
>sweet.

You'd think a novelist would know that it's pondial.

> See "hot cross bun", for example, though for some it also
>includes "fairy cakes".

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WCdnE

Frances Kemmish - 23 Mar 2008 21:45 GMT
> fWIW we have used bread making machines for at least ten
> years, make great tasting bread without all the sugar and
> preservatives of shop bought breads.
>
> The only annoyance is the paddle that leaves a hole in
> an otherwise perfect loaf.

You can take the bread out of the breadmaker and bake it in the oven,
you know.

Fran
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 23 Mar 2008 22:46 GMT
>You can take the bread out of the breadmaker and bake it in the oven,
>you know.

Strangely, that sentence lead me up the garden path.

 "You can take the bread out of the breadmaker"

fits the pattern of "You can take X out of Y, but you can't take
Y out of X".

For instance "You can take the man out of Liverpool, but you
can't take Liverpool out of the man".

My predictive part of my brain was expecting:

 "You can take the bread out of the breadmaker, but you can't
 take the breadmaker out of the bread".

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Robin Bignall - 24 Mar 2008 00:12 GMT
>>You can take the bread out of the breadmaker and bake it in the oven,
>>you know.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>  "You can take the bread out of the breadmaker, but you can't
>  take the breadmaker out of the bread".

In this case you have to take a small piece of breadmaker out of the
bread or you'll ruin your breadknife.  That's an old saw.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Peter Moylan - 24 Mar 2008 03:38 GMT
>>> You can take the bread out of the breadmaker and bake it in the oven,
>>> you know.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> In this case you have to take a small piece of breadmaker out of the
> bread or you'll ruin your breadknife.  That's an old saw.

The last time I used an old saw I got rust marks on the bread.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

irwell - 23 Mar 2008 23:30 GMT
>> fWIW we have used bread making machines for at least ten
>> years, make great tasting bread without all the sugar and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Fran
Yes, we keep meaning to do that, actually to try
baking some them there crusty rolls.
Arcadian Rises - 24 Mar 2008 00:04 GMT
> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>
> What happens if you just mix the flour,salt,sugar,yeast etc and
> bake it?

I take it you dislike kneading.

My cat is a real expert, she still practices a lot, and she is
available part-time.
irwell - 24 Mar 2008 00:35 GMT
>> Is it really necessary to knead the dough in order to make bread?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>My cat is a real expert, she still practices a lot, and she is
>available part-time.

Already have kneader, knead to get rid of her, here's a picture.
http://usera.imagecave.com/irwell/bardolinoII.jpg
 
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