such ... for ... ???

Thread view:

Enable EMail Alerts

Start New Thread

Thread rating:

Florian v. Savigny - 21 Jan 2004 11:13 GMT

In "Through the Looking Glass" by Lewis Carroll, in the second chapter
("The Garden of Live Flowers"), I stumbled over an utterance of
Alice's:

"Oh, its's too bad!" she cried. "I never saw such a house for getting
in the way! Never!"

[she has just tried to walk up a hill but suddenly finds herself
walking in the house where she started off, though this house was to
be expected far behind her]

Alice's statement is puzzling me: has she used correct English here
(since now and then, she doesn't)? Though I seem to understand that
Alices wants to say "I've never seen a house such as would get in your
way", the construction is somewhat obscure to me. I suspect its core
must be "such ... for + -ing", meaning "such ... as will/would + inf",
but I have failed to find such a construction in any of my
dictionaries and the like.

Is this correct, or am I altogether on the wrong track? Could you give
other examples using the same construction?

Thanks for any comment!

Signature

Florian v. Savigny

(If you are going to reply in private, please be patient, as I only
check for mail something like once a week. - Si vous allez répondre
personellement, patientez s.v.p., car je ne lis les courriels
qu'environ une fois par semaine.)

Reply to this Message

Donna Richoux - 21 Jan 2004 11:39 GMT

> In "Through the Looking Glass" by Lewis Carroll, in the second chapter
> ("The Garden of Live Flowers"), I stumbled over an utterance of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Alice's statement is puzzling me: has she used correct English here
> (since now and then, she doesn't)?

I'd be curious to know what other examples you're thinking of. She is a
careful speaker and not one to be very playful with language (the
nonsense lines go mostly to the other characters) so maybe what you saw
are other bits of old-fashioned grammar.

>Though I seem to understand that
> Alices wants to say "I've never seen a house such as would get in your
> way", the construction is somewhat obscure to me.

No, that's not quite the meaning. She means, "This house gets in the way
more than any other house I've seen. I've never seen a house that got in
the way so much."

There is an element of surreal content there, of course, simply in
suggesting that houses move around, and deliberately, too. But the
grammar was normal for the time.

>I suspect its core
> must be "such ... for + -ing", meaning "such ... as will/would + inf",
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Is this correct, or am I altogether on the wrong track? Could you give
> other examples using the same construction?

Searching on MasterTexts.com, I came up with:

"I never knew such a woman for doing impulsive penances, as you,
Sue! ... Hardy_Thomas/Jude_the_Obscure

"Oh, well, go your own way!" cried Sir John, in despair. "Never
was such a man for making difficulties. ... Doyle_Arthur_Conan/

I felled a cedar-tree, and I question much whether Solomon ever had
such a one for the building of the Temple of Jerusalem ...
Defoe/Robinson Crusoe

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Reply to this Message

Brian.Farrelly - 21 Jan 2004 12:24 GMT

> > In "Through the Looking Glass" by Lewis Carroll, in the second chapter
> > ("The Garden of Live Flowers"), I stumbled over an utterance of
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> --
> Best -- Donna Richoux

Very nice! I must check MasterTexts.com.

However I wonder whether your third example is completely on target. As
I
understand these sentences the first two refer to people who habitually
hehave in a certain way. The woman has a habit of doing impulsive
penances,
the man of making difficulties.

The cedar-tree however does not habitually build temples.

In the last sentence we could put '...such a one for the purpose
of building ...' though that would be clumsier. There is also a
hint of '... such a one during the building ...' .

By the way I do not see this as old-fashioned English. I think that
if you looked for modern examples you would find the idiom alive and
well in England in 2004.

Brian

Signature

mailto:Brian.Farrelly@nho.hydro.com Norsk Hydro Research Centre
phone +47 55 99 68 74 ((( Postboks 7190
fax +47 55 99 69 70 2oooS N-5020 Bergen
home +47 55 13 78 49 HYDRO Norway

Reply to this Message

Florian v. Savigny - 22 Jan 2004 00:16 GMT

> > > Alice's statement is puzzling me: has she used correct English here
> > > (since now and then, she doesn't)?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > nonsense lines go mostly to the other characters) so maybe what you saw
> > are other bits of old-fashioned grammar.

Hmm, I'm not sure about what I exactly meant. I guess I just assumed
this because of her utterance in "Alice in Wonderland": "Curiouser and
curiouser!", but I just looked up that that's explicitely marked, even
implying that this is an exception in Alice's speech ('she was so much
surprised that _for the moment_ she forgot how to speak good
English').

> > No, that's not quite the meaning. She means, "This house gets in the way
> > more than any other house I've seen. I've never seen a house that got in
> > the way so much."

Oh, thanks very much. Hard to guess with its surrealistic humour.

> > Searching on MasterTexts.com, I came up with:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > "Oh, well, go your own way!" cried Sir John, in despair. "Never
> > was such a man for making difficulties. ... Doyle_Arthur_Conan/

Thanks very, very much. I think I shall also have to check out
MasterTexts.com. I hesitate to say that constructed examples would
have done for me, but this is of course marvellous.

> However I wonder whether your third example is completely on target.

I have the same feeling.

> In the last sentence we could put '...such a one for the purpose
> of building ...' though that would be clumsier. There is also a
> hint of '... such a one during the building ...' .

As I understand it, the tree should be the agent of the for clause,
shouldn't it? '... ever had such a one for deserving so well the
honour of being used for the temple' ... horrible, but I hope I got
the point across.

BTW, it seems to me that ever/never is a mandatory part of the idiom,
isn't it:

never/ever such ... for + -ing

Or could it be omitted?

Signature

Reply to this Message

Donna Richoux - 22 Jan 2004 00:42 GMT

[snip]

> Hmm, I'm not sure about what I exactly meant. I guess I just assumed
> this because of her utterance in "Alice in Wonderland": "Curiouser and
> curiouser!", but I just looked up that that's explicitely marked, even
> implying that this is an exception in Alice's speech ('she was so much
> surprised that _for the moment_ she forgot how to speak good
> English').

I'd forgotten about that one.

[snip]

> > > Searching on MasterTexts.com, I came up with:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> MasterTexts.com. I hesitate to say that constructed examples would
> have done for me, but this is of course marvellous.

I'm glad you like them.

> > However I wonder whether your third example is completely on target.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> honour of being used for the temple' ... horrible, but I hope I got
> the point across.

Yes, I saw that the Defoe example was different, but I decided it was
close enough to be interesting, so I threw it in at the end. He wrote a
century or more before the others, so it might be an example of the
basic grammatical form that became specialized into this "Never -- such"
one.

You're asking what it means? Well, that sends me back to MasterText to
get more of the surrounding text:

I went to work upon this boat the most like a fool
that ever man did who had any of his senses awake.
...
I felled a cedar-tree, and I question much whether
Solomon ever had such a one for the building of the
Temple of Jerusalem; it was five feet ten inches
diameter at the lower part next the stump, and four
feet eleven inches diameter at the end of twenty-two
feet; after which it lessened for a while, and then
parted into branches. It was not without infinite
labour that I felled this tree; I was twenty days
hacking and hewing at it at the bottom; I was
fourteen more getting the branches and limbs and the
vast spreading head cut off ...

He goes on about the size of the tree and the resulting boat, and
finally -- as he sensed at the beginning -- he found that the boat was
too big to move. He couldn't use it.

So, the "such a one" phrase meant, "I doubt that Solomon had a tree this
big to use when he built the temple."

> BTW, it seems to me that ever/never is a mandatory part of the idiom,
> isn't it:
>
> never/ever such ... for + -ing
>
> Or could it be omitted?

Probably -- I can imagine old sentences like "He was such a one for
doughnuts." That drops the "ing," too, though.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Reply to this Message

Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004

such ... for ... ???