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she earns..me or I??

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lee - 21 Jan 2004 23:08 GMT
Could someone please help with a 'me' and 'I' query. I realize 'me' is
the object and 'I' is the subject, but which of these is correct:

She earns more than I
She earns more than me

I would imagine that it's 'more than me' but how does that then explain
'she earns more than I do'

Thanks.  
Gary Vellenzer - 21 Jan 2004 23:53 GMT
> Could someone please help with a 'me' and 'I' query. I realize 'me' is
> the object and 'I' is the subject, but which of these is correct:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I would imagine that it's 'more than me' but how does that then explain
> 'she earns more than I do'

Go to www.m-w.com and look at the entries for than. You'll see there are
two of them---one for than as a conjunction (...than I do) and one for
than as a preposition (...than me).

Gary
Dr Robin Bignall - 22 Jan 2004 00:08 GMT
>Could someone please help with a 'me' and 'I' query. I realize 'me' is
>the object and 'I' is the subject, but which of these is correct:
>
>She earns more than I
>She earns more than me

To my ear, the first sounds wrong, stilted. The second is used without
ambiguity in informal conversation, but when you consider that it stands
for "She earns more than me earns", it's obviously not grammatical.

>I would imagine that it's 'more than me' but how does that then explain
>'she earns more than I do'

Because the "I" is the subject of the verb "do".

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Raymond S. Wise - 22 Jan 2004 01:08 GMT
> >Could someone please help with a 'me' and 'I' query. I realize 'me' is
> >the object and 'I' is the subject, but which of these is correct:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> ambiguity in informal conversation, but when you consider that it stands
> for "She earns more than me earns", it's obviously not grammatical.

I would say "She earns more than me" and that very definitely is _not_ a
shortened version of *"She earns more than me earns." (By the way, how did
you arrive at that "s" in the last word?)  The sentence "She earns more than
me" is in no way a shortened version of some other sentence: "me" is the
object of the prepositional phrase "than me."

If I were to shorten "She earns more than I earn," where "than" is a
conjunction rather than a preposition, I would make it "She earns more than
I do." However, I can understand why some people would end the sentence
simply with "than I."

> >I would imagine that it's 'more than me' but how does that then explain
> >'she earns more than I do'
> >
> Because the "I" is the subject of the verb "do".

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Dr Robin Bignall - 22 Jan 2004 22:36 GMT
>> >Could someone please help with a 'me' and 'I' query. I realize 'me' is
>> >the object and 'I' is the subject, but which of these is correct:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>I would say "She earns more than me" and that very definitely is _not_ a
>shortened version of *"She earns more than me earns."

I didn't say it was 'a shortened version of', I said it 'stood for'. What
else could it stand for except, if you want to be wordy, "She earns more
than the amount that is earned by me"?

>(By the way, how did
>you arrive at that "s" in the last word?)  

Should I have written "She earns more than me earn"?

>The sentence "She earns more than
>me" is in no way a shortened version of some other sentence: "me" is the
>object of the prepositional phrase "than me."

I know.

>If I were to shorten "She earns more than I earn," where "than" is a
>conjunction rather than a preposition, I would make it "She earns more than
>I do." However, I can understand why some people would end the sentence
>simply with "than I."

I know you can, and it's because you're American. A lot of people say "She
earns more than I" in BrE, but it sounds pretentious to my British ear.
They usually do it because they think, or have been led to believe, that
saying 'me' is common, and 'I' is much more polite, even as the object of a
verb.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Raymond S. Wise - 23 Jan 2004 08:53 GMT
> >> >Could someone please help with a 'me' and 'I' query. I realize 'me' is
> >> >the object and 'I' is the subject, but which of these is correct:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> else could it stand for except, if you want to be wordy, "She earns more
> than the amount that is earned by me"?

The traditional (prescriptive) take on *She earns more than me* would be
that *than* is a conjunction and the pronoun following is the subject of an
elided *...than I earn.* The traditional grammarian would "prove" this by
pointing out the alternate form *She earns more than I do.* Your take on it
is a novel one, and I don't really know what to make of it.

> >(By the way, how did
> >you arrive at that "s" in the last word?)
>
> Should I have written "She earns more than me earn"?

You should have written that, yes, if indeed you believed that *me* was in
the subjective case. Evidently, you believe it to be in the objective case,
and (something like) an elided form--you say it is not an elided form, but
I'm afraid I don't understand your argument--of *She earns more than the
amount that is earned by me.*

I have to wonder how in the heck you arrived at the "obviously not
grammatical"--your words--*She earns more than me earns.* I would think that
you would have had to conclude that *She earns more than me* "stands for"
*She earns more than the amount that is earned by me*[1] which is, if
awkward, at least grammatical.

> >The sentence "She earns more than
> >me" is in no way a shortened version of some other sentence: "me" is the
> >object of the prepositional phrase "than me."
> >
> I know.

That you would know that *me* is the object of *than me* does not appear to
follow from you have written above. As far as I can see, if we follow your
way of looking at it, the prepositional phrase is not *than me* at all.
Instead, it is *...than the amount that is earned by me,* in which the
object of *than* is not *me* but instead is *the amount that is earned by
me.*

> >If I were to shorten "She earns more than I earn," where "than" is a
> >conjunction rather than a preposition, I would make it "She earns more than
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> saying 'me' is common, and 'I' is much more polite, even as the object of a
> verb.

Which would make it a case similar to that of *between you and I.* The
traditional grammarian, as I indicated above, would not see it that way, but
instead would see *me* as incorrect because it is in the subjective rather
than the required (according to his analysis) objective case.

Note:

[1] In an earlier draft, I wrote:

[quote]

I would think that you would have had  to conclude that "She earns more than
me" "stands for" "She earns more than the amount that is earned by me" which
is, if awkward, at least grammatical.

[end quote]

This use of quotation marks was confusing, so I went back and replaced most
of the quotation marks in my post by asterisks representing, in this case,
italics. It would look a lot better in print with actual italics, of course.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Florian v. Savigny - 22 Jan 2004 00:27 GMT
Hmm, I'm not a native speaker, but I think I know that one.

"She earns more than I" is the purist way of putting it, since it is
logical (as you said, it can be seen as an ellipsis of: "She earns
more than I do".)

"She earns more than me" is the more popular way of putting it, since
it doesn't sound so high-browed.

Both are correct. I wouldn't venture to say the first is standard,
good English and the second is colloquial, but it might be somehow
along these lines.

Signature

Florian v. Savigny

(If you are going to reply in private, please be patient, as I only
check for mail something like once a week. - Si vous allez répondre
personellement, patientez s.v.p., car je ne lis les courriels
qu'environ une fois par semaine.)

Adrian Bailey - 22 Jan 2004 03:04 GMT
> Hmm, I'm not a native speaker, but I think I know that one.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> good English and the second is colloquial, but it might be somehow
> along these lines.

The second is the colloquial *and* standard form these days. Of course the
first is still correct, but it's rare.

Think of "me" here as a demonstrative pronoun like French "moi".

Adrian
Raymond S. Wise - 22 Jan 2004 09:15 GMT
> > Hmm, I'm not a native speaker, but I think I know that one.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Think of "me" here as a demonstrative pronoun like French "moi".

Not "demonstrative pronoun," but "disjunctive pronoun," also known as a
"tonic pronoun."

If English does have disjunctive pronouns, then they operate according to
different rules than those in French (which wouldn't be particularly
surprising, of course). No descriptive grammar that I know of states that
English has disjunctive pronouns. Those grammars which attempt to explain
such sentences as "It's me" do so by explaining that the pronoun in
question, in this case "me," falls into "object territory," and thus is put
in the objective form.

No, it's just simpler to see the "I" in "She earns more than I" is an elided
"I do" from the sentence "She earns more than I do," making "than" a
conjunction and a subjective pronoun necessary, and "She earns more than me"
as a sentence using "than" as a preposition and thus making an objective
pronoun necessary.

The Collins French Dictionary Plus at

http://www.wordreference.com/fr/Translation.asp?enfr=than

shows "than" as a conjunction only. However, the Oxford-Hachette French
Dictionary gives it both as a preposition and as a conjunction and has the
following usage note:

[quote]

than [...]
*Note* When _than_ is used as a preposition in
expressions of comparison, it is translated by
_que_ (or _qu'_ before a vowel or mute 'h'): _he's _taller than me_ = _il
est plus grand que moi; _London is bigger than Oxford_ = Londres est plus
grand qu'Oxford.

[end quote]

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Richard Maurer - 22 Jan 2004 09:47 GMT
<< [Raymond S. Wise]
No, it's just simpler to see the "I" in "She earns more than I" is an elided
"I do" from the sentence "She earns more than I do," making "than" a
conjunction and a subjective pronoun necessary, and "She earns more than me"
as a sentence using "than" as a preposition and thus making an objective
pronoun necessary.
[end quote] >>

What actually happens when "than" is changed from a conjunction
to a preposition?  Does the meaning stay the same and the only
changes are such as a nearby 'she' changing to a 'her'?
(I looked it up but usage note does not make this part clear.)

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Raymond S. Wise - 23 Jan 2004 08:04 GMT
> << [Raymond S. Wise]
> No, it's just simpler to see the "I" in "She earns more than I" is an elided
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> changes are such as a nearby 'she' changing to a 'her'?
> (I looked it up but usage note does not make this part clear.)

It seems to me that the meaning would depend upon the function of the word.
To take another verb as an example of this principle, in "I think, therefore
I am," the verb "am" is functioning as an intransitive verb, with the
meaning of "exist." But in "I am going to think about it," the "am" has
another function: it's an"auxiliary verb" or "verbal auxiliary"[1]. And in
"I am tired," the "am" functions as a copula (or "linking verb").

The function, and thus the meaning, of "than" as used as a conjunction is
different from "than" used as a preposition. The words which follow the word
"than" take the appropriate grammatical form.

"Than" is a word which started out as a conjunction and became in some uses
a preposition. There's another interesting case, that of "until." According
to *Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary,* 11th ed., "until" as a
preposition dates to the 13th century. Used as a conjunction it dates to the
14th century.

Note:

[1] *Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary,* 11th ed., considers these to
be synonyms, which means that a "verbal auxiliary" is a verb. In his
*Columbia Guide to Standard American English* at

http://www.bartleby.com/68/41/641.html

Kenneth G. Wilson, under the entry "auxiliaries, auxiliary verbs" mentions
another name for them, "helping verbs." But he also mentions the following:
"Many grammars assert that _auxiliaries_ are not verbs at all, since they
behave differently from verbs: most of them have no past participles such as
verbs have." That position has been defended previously by some members in
this newsgroup.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Adrian Bailey - 23 Jan 2004 01:02 GMT
> > > Hmm, I'm not a native speaker, but I think I know that one.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Not "demonstrative pronoun," but "disjunctive pronoun," also known as a
> "tonic pronoun."

Oops, yes.

> If English does have disjunctive pronouns, then they operate according to
> different rules than those in French (which wouldn't be particularly
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> est plus grand que moi; _London is bigger than Oxford_ = Londres est plus
> grand qu'Oxford.

Checking my Larousse, what's noticeable is that although "than" is listed as
a preposition in this usage, "que" is not, even though the function of the
two words in sentences such as:

He's taller than me.
Il est plus grand que moi.

is the same.

Adrian
DE781 - 22 Jan 2004 00:51 GMT
Lee:

>I would imagine that it's 'more than me' but how does that then explain
>'she earns more than I do'

"She earns more than I do" is, officially, the "correct" form.  Thus, "she
earns more than I" eventually became a sort of commonplace, abbrieviated form
of it.

However, in this day and age, "she earns more than me" is extremely more
widespread.  The overwhelming majority of English-speakers believe there is
nothing wrong with saying, "she earns more than me".  So, why not do it?
Mark Raymond - 23 Jan 2004 05:53 GMT
[snip]

> However, in this day and age, "she earns more than me" is extremely more
> widespread.  The overwhelming majority of English-speakers believe there is
> nothing wrong with saying, "she earns more than me" ....

That's because there IS nothing wrong with it.  "more (x) than me" is
perfectly grammatical: the construction is known as a 'comparative
ablative', and has been around for thousands of years in various
languages (if not longer).  Given that the ablative form of the first
person singular pronoun (in English at least) is "me",  "more (x) than
me" is _quite_ correct,  and not colloquial at all.

The "more (x) than I" construction is only grammatical if a verb is
'understood' (yes, this is the technical term for having to mentally
add a word to make grammatical sense of a sentence):  usually a form
of "to do" or "to be".

Mark@work

PS  Could someone please have a guess at why my Xnews has lost its
ability to post now that I have swapped ISPs (and therefore news
servers) at home?  Help will be appreciated!!
Charles Riggs - 22 Jan 2004 09:23 GMT
>Could someone please help with a 'me' and 'I' query. I realize 'me' is
>the object and 'I' is the subject, but which of these is correct:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I would imagine that it's 'more than me' but how does that then explain
>'she earns more than I do'

I'd skirt the problem by saying neither. 'She earns more than I do'
only takes a microsecond longer to say.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Dr Robin Bignall - 22 Jan 2004 22:39 GMT
>>Could someone please help with a 'me' and 'I' query. I realize 'me' is
>>the object and 'I' is the subject, but which of these is correct:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>I'd skirt the problem by saying neither. 'She earns more than I do'
>only takes a microsecond longer to say.

Even with my clipped Midlands vowels, I couldn't say 1000 'do's in a
second, Charles.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

DE781 - 23 Jan 2004 01:00 GMT
Robin:

>a microsecond longer to say.
>
>Even with my clipped Midlands vowels, I couldn't say 1000 'do's in a
>second, Charles.

That would be a "millisecond", Robin.  "Micro" = 1/1,000,000th.  "Nano" =
1/1,000,000,000th.

Kilo, Mega, Giga, Tera are 1,000; 1,000,000; 1,000,000,000; and
1,000,000,000,000, repectively.
Dr Robin Bignall - 23 Jan 2004 23:21 GMT
>Robin:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>That would be a "millisecond", Robin.  "Micro" = 1/1,000,000th.  "Nano" =
>1/1,000,000,000th.

You're right, Joey. Would you believe that I missed out the 'even' between
"couldn't" and "say"? If you don't, then all I can say is that I *did*
understand physics a few decades ago.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

DE781 - 24 Jan 2004 00:25 GMT
Doc Robin:

>Would you believe that I missed out the 'even' between
>"couldn't" and "say"?

If that's what you say is the truth then, yes, I believe you.  It's the kind of
mistake I could see myself making.

>If you don't, then all I can say is that I *did*
>understand physics a few decades ago.

Physics?  Oy!  I *hate* physics!  But, I've still always found the Arabic
preficees hella useful, especially in the post-computer age.
Charles Riggs - 23 Jan 2004 07:10 GMT
>>>Could someone please help with a 'me' and 'I' query. I realize 'me' is
>>>the object and 'I' is the subject, but which of these is correct:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Even with my clipped Midlands vowels, I couldn't say 1000 'do's in a
>second, Charles.

The 'I do's are even dodgier.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

 
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