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Hortense

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Bob Cunningham - 22 Jan 2004 14:19 GMT
I've tested all of the links in the Resources (Categorized
Links) file at my Web site.  There were eleven bad links,
and they have now been repaired.

You can see a list of the repairs in my "What's New" file at
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/whats_new.html
under "2004 January 22".

About the subject line:  I greatly dislike it when I write a
meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
discussions that have nothing to do with it.  My answer to
the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.

If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.
Matti Lamprhey - 22 Jan 2004 14:26 GMT
"Bob Cunningham" <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote...
> [...]
> About the subject line:  I greatly dislike it when I write a
> meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
> discussions that have nothing to do with it.  My answer to
> the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.

My middle name is Hortense (don't ask), so I'm grossly miffed by your
attitude here, Bob CunningHam.

Matti

> If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
> line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
> to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.
Louisa Hennessy - 22 Jan 2004 15:40 GMT
>"Bob Cunningham" <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote...
>> [...]
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>My middle name is Hortense (don't ask), so I'm grossly miffed by your
>attitude here, Bob CunningHam.

I have been resisting for several minutes now, but can't stand it any longer. I
have to ask, why is your middle name Hortense??
Signature

Louisa
Essex, England, Europe

Matti Lamprhey - 22 Jan 2004 16:14 GMT
"Louisa Hennessy" <louisahennessy@aol.com> wrote...
> >"Bob Cunningham" <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote...
> >> [...]
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I have been resisting for several minutes now, but can't stand it any
> longer. I have to ask, why is your middle name Hortense??

Which bit of "don't ask" didn't you understand, Louisa?

If you must know, the vicar offered a choice of that or Lavinia, so it
could have been worse.  Something to do with balancing the statistics,
apparently.

Matti
Wood Avens - 22 Jan 2004 16:27 GMT
>If you must know, the vicar offered a choice of that or Lavinia, so it
>could have been worse.

Interesting (or perhaps not very) - to me, Lavinia would have been by
far the better choice.

Signature

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove number to reply

Louisa Hennessy - 22 Jan 2004 16:43 GMT
>>If you must know, the vicar offered a choice of that or Lavinia, so it
>>could have been worse.
>
>Interesting (or perhaps not very) - to me, Lavinia would have been by
>far the better choice.

I think I prefer Hortense, it has a little whiff of French exoticism about it
:-)

Signature

Louisa
Essex, England, Europe

mUs1Ka - 22 Jan 2004 16:54 GMT
>>> If you must know, the vicar offered a choice of that or Lavinia, so
>>> it could have been worse.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I think I prefer Hortense, it has a little whiff of French exoticism
> about it :-)

Ah, but Lavinia has the scent of India perfuming its very essence.
m.
Dr Robin Bignall - 22 Jan 2004 22:57 GMT
>>>> If you must know, the vicar offered a choice of that or Lavinia, so
>>>> it could have been worse.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Ah, but Lavinia has the scent of India perfuming its very essence.

I would have thought that 'Lamprhey' was exotic enough not to require
further amplification.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Richard R. Hershberger - 23 Jan 2004 13:40 GMT
> >>> If you must know, the vicar offered a choice of that or Lavinia, so
> >>> it could have been worse.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Ah, but Lavinia has the scent of India perfuming its very essence.
> m.

Do we all get votes?  If so, put me down for "Lavinia".
Charles Riggs - 23 Jan 2004 07:11 GMT
>"Bob Cunningham" <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote...
>> [...]
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>My middle name is Hortense (don't ask), so I'm grossly miffed by your
>attitude here, Bob CunningHam.

Can we be 100% certain Matti Hortense is a man? If something is always
referred to as a horse, isn't it safe to assume it is a horse?
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Matti Lamprhey - 23 Jan 2004 10:19 GMT
"Charles Riggs" <CHANGE@aircom.net> wrote...

> >My middle name is Hortense (don't ask), so I'm grossly miffed by your
> >attitude here, Bob CunningHam.
>
> Can we be 100% certain Matti Hortense is a man? If something is always
> referred to as a horse, isn't it safe to assume it is a horse?

I'll swap my urkingdom for a horse any day.

Matti
Sara Lorimer - 28 Jan 2004 18:34 GMT
Matti Lamprhey wrote, in part:

> "Bob Cunningham" <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote...
> > [...]
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> My middle name is Hortense...

Perhaps we all knew that, on some deep level; thus the "Matti's a
_boy_?!?" threads.

Signature

SML

ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu  <http://pirate-women.com>

John O'Flaherty - 22 Jan 2004 16:06 GMT
>I've tested all of the links in the Resources (Categorized
>Links) file at my Web site.  There were eleven bad links,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
>to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.

It's a hormoanal problem. Pay her, she'll relax.

--
john
Bob Cunningham - 22 Jan 2004 18:20 GMT
[ . . . ]

> >About the subject line:  I greatly dislike it when I write a
> >meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
> >discussions that have nothing to do with it.  My answer to
> >the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.

> >If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
> >line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
> >to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.

> It's a hormoanal problem.

But is it a genuwhine hormoanal problem?

> Pay her, she'll relax.

Congratulations, John.  I tried to think of something to do
with "whore tense", but nothing came ... not even Hortense.
Robert Lieblich - 23 Jan 2004 01:15 GMT
[ ... ]

> Congratulations, John.  I tried to think of something to do
> with "whore tense", but nothing came ... not even Hortense.

Gimme a sentence with the name "Hortense" --

One way to make a whore tense is to threaten to call the vice squad.

Do non-rhotics pronounce it "Ho tense"?

Have I no shame?

Signature

Bob Lieblich
None

Charles Riggs - 23 Jan 2004 07:11 GMT
>[ ... ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>One way to make a whore tense is to threaten to call the vice squad.

That'd even make a hormone.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

John DeFiore - 22 Jan 2004 17:20 GMT
> If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
> line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
> to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.

It would be ironic if there were 400 on-topic postings on the subject of
"Hortense".

Regards,

John
Bob Cunningham - 22 Jan 2004 18:27 GMT


> > If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
> > line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
> > to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.

> It would be ironic if there were 400 on-topic postings on the subject of
> "Hortense".

We could try.  It would be something to do.

Have there been any great Hortenses in history?  I mean,
besides Matti?
Robert Lipton - 22 Jan 2004 18:26 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Have there been any great Hortenses in history?  I mean,
> besides Matti?

Well, there was my mother, but I may well be biased.

Bob
Donna Richoux - 22 Jan 2004 19:08 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Have there been any great Hortenses in history?  I mean,
> besides Matti?

"Hortensia" is what the Dutch call the hydrangea, so I looked up why. It
turns out that Hortense de Beauharnais, daughter of the Empress
Josephine and the step-daughter of Napoleon Bonaparte, was Queen of
Holland, too. She also gave her name to one of the world's largest
diamonds.

398 to go.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Ben Zimmer - 22 Jan 2004 19:49 GMT
> > > > If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
> > > > line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Holland, too. She also gave her name to one of the world's largest
> diamonds.

Hmm... OED says "hortensia" was named after "the wife of J.-A. Lepaute
(1720-c1787), French clockmaker".  First used by P. Commerson in 1789.

Some discussion on fr.lettres.langue.francaise here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EFD5159.EE43FF07@noos.fr

Either way, it seems like an awfully convenient name for a flower, since
"Hortensia" comes from Latin _hortensi(u)s_ 'of or belonging to a
garden' (f. _hortus_ 'garden').
Donna Richoux - 22 Jan 2004 22:17 GMT
> > > Have there been any great Hortenses in history?  I mean,
> > > besides Matti?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> "Hortensia" comes from Latin _hortensi(u)s_ 'of or belonging to a
> garden' (f. _hortus_ 'garden').

The editor at De Tuingids (The Garden Guide) thought that the Napoleonic
Hortense was the source of the name:

    http://www.detuingids.be/pages/detail.asp?Id=2720 
      Deze plant wel eens genoemd naar HORTENSE DE
    BEAUHARNAIS, de bloedmooie dochter van Keizerin
    Josephine van Frankrijk.

But maybe they were wrong -- it wouldn't be the first time somebody was
wrong on the Web...

One page says that Hortense was named *after* the flower:

    Josephine had two children by Beauharnais, Eugene
    and Hortense. The latter was also named after a
    flower; the hortensia, known more familiarly as the
    "mophead" hydrangea.

Hortense de Beauharnais was b.1783, d. 1837, if that helps. I can't find
when the hydrangea hortensia was brought to Europe.

And here's another which mentions someone else, a botanist -- that's
rather what I expected in the first place:

    Hydrangeas: Pots Of Mopheads And Lacecaps
    Hortensias {H. macrophylla}, also known as bigleaf
    or garden hydrangeas, are very popular and widely
    grown. Hortensias, also known as "mopheads," were
    named in honor of Hortense, the daughter of 18th
    century botanist Prince de Nassau.

Well, that's something more to look for. And, yes, it turns up more
hits:

    1.De naam Hydrangea is voor het eerst gebruikt door
    de botanist Grovonius in zijn 'Flora
    Virginica'.*********2.De naam Hortensia is gegeven
    ter ere van Hortense van Nassau ,de dochter van de
    Prins van Nassau,die deel uitmaakte van de
    plant-hunter-expeditie van Bougainville.

(The name Hydrangea was first used by the botanist Grovonious in his
"Flora Virginica." The name Hortensia was given in honor of Hortense van
nassu, the daughter of the Prince of Nassau, who took part in the
plant-hunter expedition of Bougainville.)

Another page says Hortense was the sister of the one who went on the
expedition:

    De hortensia is vernoemd naar Hortense van Nassau,
    zuster van de prins van Nassau-Siegen, die als
    officier in Franse dienst in 1766 deel nam aan een
    wereldreis van plantenverzamelaar Bougenville en de
    Hydrangea hier introduceerde.

The date checks: Louis Antoine de Bougainville sailed around the world,
1766-69, collecting plants. The flower he collected in Brazil is of
course named for him, Bougainvillea. However, the page I checked does
*not* mention whether he collected the hydrangea.

However, another mentions that Philibert Commerson, the botanist you say
the OED credits with the name, was on that same voyage... Maybe he made
a little pun, naming the flower both in honor of gardens *and* the
sister of his expedition comrade, the prince.

Like your French post said, however, the beautiful Hortense rests
mysterious. It does seem terribly likely that the real origin of the
name was simply "the garden hydrangea, the hydrangea grown in gardens"
and all these women were named later, or independently.

I would expect the adjective "hortensia" to have been used in many other
species, the same way that, say, "chinensis" and "japonica" turn up in
many names... And indeed, with a little looking, I find:

    Rudbeckia Laciniata Hortensia
    Myosotidium Hortensia

And they have nothing to do with hydrangeas.

The earliest record I can find in Ancestry World Tree with the name
"Hortense" is a German countess born 1569. There may be some earlier,
there's no quick way to check. Now I wonder, was "Hortensia" used as a
woman's name in Roman times?...

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Bob Cunningham - 23 Jan 2004 01:07 GMT
[ . . . ]

> The earliest record I can find in Ancestry World Tree with the name
> "Hortense" is a German countess born 1569. There may be some earlier,
> there's no quick way to check. Now I wonder, was "Hortensia" used as a
> woman's name in Roman times?...

From www.behindthename.com :

  HORTENSE   f   French
  Pronounced: or-TAWNS
  French feminine form of Hortensius (see HORTENSIA).

  HORTENSIA   f   Ancient Roman, English, Spanish
  Feminine form of the Roman family name Hortensius,
  possibly derived from Latin hortus "garden".

By the way, I see now that www.behindthename.com has been
mentioned at least 37 times in AUE in recent years -- as far
back as August 2000.

And, lo and behold, I see also that I have added it to Mark
Israel's AUE FAQ at some time in more or less recent years.
( http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxetymol.html .)
Donna Richoux - 23 Jan 2004 01:43 GMT
> Now I wonder, was "Hortensia" used as a
> > woman's name in Roman times?...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>    Feminine form of the Roman family name Hortensius,
>    possibly derived from Latin hortus "garden".

I see. That made me check the Perseus Project, which has:

    Hortensia      
    The daughter of the orator Hortensius (q.v.), who
    inherited her father's eloquence. When the members
    of the Second Triumvirate had imposed a heavy tax
    upon the Roman matrons and no one of the other sex
    dared to espouse their cause, Hortensia appeared as
    their advocate, and made so able a speech that a
    large portion of the burden was removed (Val. Max.
    viii. 3, 3). This harangue was extant in
    Quintilian's time, who speaks of it with praise (
    Quint.i. 1Quint., 6).

There's an even longer article on her father, which begins:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999%2e0
4%2e0062&query=id%3dhortensius#id,hortensius

    Hortensius      
    Quintus. (1) A celebrated orator, who began to
    distinguish himself by his eloquence in the Roman
    Forum at the age of nineteen. He was born of a
    plebeian family, B.C. 114, eight years before
    Cicero. He served at first as a common soldier, and
    afterwards as military tribune, in the Social War.
    In the contest between Marius and Sulla he remained
    neutral, and was one of the twenty quaestors
    established by Sulla. He afterwards obtained in
    succession the offices of aedile, praetor, and consul.

It goes on and on about his career and distinctive oratorial style.

Then I wondered whether the "Hort-" in their names had anything to do
with "exhort" and "hortatory," but AHD says the "to urge" meaning and
the "garden" meaning are from two unrelated Indo-European roots.
Besides, I don't think these were nicknames they earned, but family
names.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Bob Cunningham - 23 Jan 2004 03:14 GMT
[ . . . ]

> Then I wondered whether the "Hort-" in their names had anything to do
> with "exhort" and "hortatory," but AHD says the "to urge" meaning and
> the "garden" meaning are from two unrelated Indo-European roots.
> Besides, I don't think these were nicknames they earned, but family
> names.

But the "hort-" is the same as in "cohort".  In November
1999 I posted to say

  I've found it fascinating that the 'hort' in the word
  'cohort' is related to the 'hort' in 'horticultural',
  and derives from the use of a farmyard as the meeting
  place for a group of soldiers.  [...]
  (_The Merriam-Webster New Book of Word Histories_ has
  nearly a full page devoted to the etymology of
  'cohort'.  They say, among other things, that '-hort',
  'yard', and 'garden' all go back 'through the mists
  of time' to the same source.)
John Dean - 23 Jan 2004 15:51 GMT
>> Now I wonder, was "Hortensia" used as a
>>> woman's name in Roman times?...
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>      distinguish himself by his eloquence in the Roman
>      Forum at the age of nineteen. >

Lempriere identifies several men named Hortensius, including the man who
introduced the fashion for eating peacocks. 'Hortensia Lex', the Hortensian
Law, was enacted by the Dictator Q. Hortensius to oblige the nobility to
subject themselves to the laws passed by commoners.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Jim Ward - 23 Jan 2004 02:29 GMT
> By the way, I see now that www.behindthename.com has been
> mentioned at least 37 times in AUE in recent years -- as far
> back as August 2000.

I looked up Dena - Possibly means "dale" or "valley" in a Native American
language.
Dr Robin Bignall - 23 Jan 2004 23:52 GMT
>> By the way, I see now that www.behindthename.com has been
>> mentioned at least 37 times in AUE in recent years -- as far
>> back as August 2000.
>
>I looked up Dena - Possibly means "dale" or "valley" in a Native American
>language.

"Valley" reminds me of "cleavage" and... No, I won't take that thought any
further (until she visits me in England). ;)

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2004 01:21 GMT
> "Valley" reminds me of "cleavage" and... No, I won't take that
> thought any further (until she visits me in England). ;)

We are *not* going down that path again!

Signature

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Donna Richoux - 23 Jan 2004 21:43 GMT
> > > > Have there been any great Hortenses in history?  I mean,
> > > > besides Matti?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > Some discussion on fr.lettres.langue.francaise here:
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EFD5159.EE43FF07@noos.fr

I've been having fun following all sorts of leads, and I can tell you
that what appear to be two different women in that French letter are
really one and the same: Hortense Lepaute, wife of the royal clockmaker,
Mme Nicole Reine Lepeaute, celebrated mathematician -- all one person.
Her full name was Nicole-Reine Etable de la Briere Hortense Lepaute; I
haven't actually been able to establish whether she used her middle name
"Hortense" publicly at the time or not. She was more than a
mathematician:

[From a "Women in Astronomy" site]

    NICOLE-REINE LEPAUTE: Nicole-Reine was born in
    France in 1723. Not much is known of her childhood.
    She married Jean-Andre Lepaute (1720-89) who was the
    royal clockmaker. Nicole studied the oscillations of
    pendulums of different lengths, and her results were
    published by her husband in his Traite D'horlogerie
    in 1755.      
            She was hired by J.J. Lalande, the director
    of the Paris Observatory, to help Clairaut determine
    the nature of the gravitational attraction of
    Jupiter and Saturn on Halley's Comet and calculate
    the exact time of its return in 1759. Lalande gave
    Nicole full credit for her work. She went on to
    calculate the path of the 1764 eclipse of the sun
    for all of Europe and the chart was published by the
    French government. for 15 years, from 1759 to 1774,
    she helped Lalande with an almanac for use by
    astronomers and navigators, published by the
    Academie des Sciences, and then from 1774 to 1783,
    she worked ont he 7th and 8th volumes of the
    Ephemeris, calculating the positions of the sun,
    moon, and planets covering the decade from 1784 to
    1794.      
            She dies a quiet death in 1788 and a crater
    on the moon is named after her.

I think that French post you gave probably has the gist of the case
right. Some flower was named by Commerson or someone else in honor of
Mme. Lepaute; that post has "peautia caelestina" and I've seen it as
"Lepautia caelestina". Celestial, get it? (I can't find any official
record of the name.) Then the same person or someone else decided that
the Lepautia plant was really a Hortensia, an already-existing genus,
and so changed its name. That sort of realization and name change
happens fairly often. Yet it is just tricky enough that it might have
confused the OED.

The French botanist Commerson's got his own dramatic story -- he took
his girlfriend Jeanne along on the big 1766 expedition run by
Bougainville. She disguised herself as a man and worked on the crew, and
the deception wasn't discovered until Tahiti. She and Commerson left the
ship at Mauritius (near Madagascar), where Commerson still did what he
could for the natural sciences until his death five years later. So, he
never got back to France.

> > Either way, it seems like an awfully convenient name for a flower, since
> > "Hortensia" comes from Latin _hortensi(u)s_ 'of or belonging to a
> > garden' (f. _hortus_ 'garden').

Precisely why Commerson created the flower name "Hortensia" is still
unknown to me. Probably the "garden" meaning. But maybe in honor of
someone. Or both.  
Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Bob Cunningham - 22 Jan 2004 19:32 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Have there been any great Hortenses in history?  I mean,
> besides Matti?

Serendipity and Hortense have led me to stumble upon a Web
site I've been wanting to find: one that tells where first
names have come from.  The site is at
http://www.behindthename.com/ .  There are 27 internal
links, most of which sound like they could be useful or fun.
For example, I find that "Robert" in Finnish is

   PERTTI (m)   ROOPE (m)   ROOPERTTI (m)

And in the period 1920-1929 Robert was the most popular name
for boys, with John, James, and William not far behind;
Charles, George, and Joseph were only about half as popular.
Wylie was in last (994th) place.  

Hortense was 567th in the list of girls' names.  An anagram
of Hortense is Noethers.

It doesn't give any namesakes for Hortense, but for Robert
it has

Namesakes for Robert:
Shakespearian Characters: 3 characters
Kings of the Franks and France: 2 kings
Nobel Prize Winners: 6 physics, 6 chemistry, 4 medicine, 1
     peace, 5 economics
Oscar Award Winners: 4 directors, 3 actors
Saints: 12 saints, 7 blessed
Kings and Queens of Scotland: 3 kings
Sports Stars: 1 baseball, 8 basketball

I guess it doesn't count Bobby under Robert, because I can
already think of sports stars Bobby Bonds and Bobby Jones
without even trying hard.

It has

   HORTENSE   f   French
   Pronounced: or-TAWNS
   French feminine form of Hortensius (see HORTENSIA).

   HORTENSIA   f   Ancient Roman, English, Spanish
   Feminine form of the Roman family name Hortensius,    
   possibly derived from Latin hortus "garden".

And possibly not?

   MATTI   m   Finnish
   Finnish form of MATTHEW

   MATTHEW   m   English, Biblical
   Pronounced: MATH-yoo
   English form of Matthaios, which was a Greek form
   of the Hebrew name Mattithyahu which meant "gift
   of YAHWEH". Saint Matthew, also called Levi, was
   one of the twelve apostles (a tax collector). He
   was supposedly the author of the first Gospel in
   the New Testament.

It also has "© Mike Campbell 1996-2001. You may not reprint
or redisplay this material without my permission."

But I plead fair use, your honor.  Besides, I'm illustrating
and advertising what a great site it is.  Mike Campbell
should thank me.
R H Draney - 22 Jan 2004 18:08 GMT
Bob Cunningham filted:

>About the subject line:  I greatly dislike it when I write a
>meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
>to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.

ObAUE: don't you mean you *could* care less?...r
Bob Cunningham - 23 Jan 2004 10:13 GMT
> Bob Cunningham filted:

> >About the subject line:  I greatly dislike it when I write a
> >meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
> >discussions that have nothing to do with it.  My answer to
> >the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.

> >If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
> >line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
> >to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.

> ObAUE: don't you mean you *could* care less?...r

An intriguing thought about ontopicness:

Suppose RHD's posting were to be followed by a thread of
1000 postings, none of which had anything to do with
giraffes.  They would all be on topic even though they ran
the gamut of content from "aardvark" to "zythum", so long as
no one changed the subject line and none of the postings
touched upon the subject of giraffes.

That is, to be on topic a posting would have only to satisfy
the condition of the subject line "Nothing whatever to do
with giraffes".
Alec McKenzie - 23 Jan 2004 10:21 GMT
> An intriguing thought about ontopicness:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the condition of the subject line "Nothing whatever to do
> with giraffes".

So your posting above is completely off-topic!

Signature

Alec McKenzie
mckenzie@despammed.com

Bob Cunningham - 23 Jan 2004 10:43 GMT

> > An intriguing thought about ontopicness:

> > Suppose RHD's posting were to be followed by a thread of
> > 1000 postings, none of which had anything to do with
> > giraffes.  They would all be on topic even though they ran
> > the gamut of content from "aardvark" to "zythum", so long as
> > no one changed the subject line and none of the postings
> > touched upon the subject of giraffes.

> > That is, to be on topic a posting would have only to satisfy
> > the condition of the subject line "Nothing whatever to do
> > with giraffes".

> So your posting above is completely off-topic!

:)
Laura F Spira - 23 Jan 2004 13:05 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> :)

"Bob smiles!" (only those cinema buffs of a certain age will understand)

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Maria Conlon - 22 Jan 2004 19:14 GMT
> About the subject line:  I greatly dislike it when I write a
> meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
> to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.

I rather like the "Hortense" subject line. It reminds me of an old
Archie comic book, wherein a girl named Hortense -- a shy, unattractive
young lady -- was asked for a date to a dance by none other than
Jughead -- an unattractive guy who was ahead of his time, being already
dumbed down.

As a name, "Hortense" is dreadful, of course. A "Hortense" cannot escape
being called "whore" and is, whorish or not, often considered
"horse-like." I think "Hortense" in the Archie comic had a rather long,
horsey face.

On the whole, I'm glad to have the name I do. If I were a guy, I
wouldn't want to be named "Dick"[1] (sorry to the Richards here) or
"Les." I also would not want to be named "Adolph." I once worked for a
Jewish man, who was born some time in the early 1920s and whose first
name was "Adolph." He didn't use it in everyday life, but he didn't go
to the trouble or expense of legally changing it. Thus, there is was,
any time he had to affix his official, legal name to anything.

[1] When I was in high school (late 1950s), "Dick" used to be a
perfectly acceptable name, not subject to anatomy-type jokes, at least
not openly. If there *were* jokes being made, most of the girls were not
privy to them. Sometimes I long for those innocent days. (Note that I
didn't say "happy days." They weren't, not especially.)

Signature

Maria Conlon
Please send any email to the Hot Mail address.

R H Draney - 22 Jan 2004 19:27 GMT
Maria Conlon filted:

>On the whole, I'm glad to have the name I do. If I were a guy, I
>wouldn't want to be named "Dick"[1] (sorry to the Richards here) or
>"Les." I also would not want to be named "Adolph."

Consider "Ronald"...with Colman fast fading in cultural significance, there were
two possible role models for me growing up in California in the 1960s: a
hamburger clown and a B-movie actor turned politician...(and whichever one I
chose to emulate, I'd have to dye my hair orange)....

Your surname, Maria, has afforded a bit of public amusement to at least one
person...last week "Schickele Mix" repeated a program in which the
jazz/classical fusion of composer Conlon Nancarrow was featured...the host spent
some time wondering what the original name was that must have been anagrammed to
form that...he finally settled on a Christmas song written in honor of an old
piece of artillery, the "Worn Cannon Carol"....r
John Varela - 22 Jan 2004 22:04 GMT
> I rather like the "Hortense" subject line. It reminds me of an old
> Archie comic book, wherein a girl named Hortense -- a shy, unattractive
> young lady -- was asked for a date to a dance by none other than
> Jughead -- an unattractive guy who was ahead of his time, being already
> dumbed down.

There was a Disney character named Hortense McDuck:
http://duckman.pettho.com/characters/hortense.html

Also, an ostrich named Hortense:
http://disneyshorts.toonzone.net/years/1937/donaldsostrich.html

Signature

John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much.

Robert Bannister - 23 Jan 2004 00:56 GMT
> [1] When I was in high school (late 1950s), "Dick" used to be a
> perfectly acceptable name, not subject to anatomy-type jokes, at least
> not openly. If there *were* jokes being made, most of the girls were not
> privy to them. Sometimes I long for those innocent days. (Note that I
> didn't say "happy days." They weren't, not especially.)

I've still got two friends who are unselfconsciously called Dick. It
doesn't seem to present a problem. Willy, however, does seem to have
dropped out, but I think mainly because of fashion rather than the
possibility of double-meaning.

Signature

Rob Bannister

John Varela - 23 Jan 2004 20:12 GMT
> I've still got two friends who are unselfconsciously called Dick. It
> doesn't seem to present a problem.

My uncle named his two sons Peter and Dick.  I seem to be the only one who
noticed.

Signature

John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much.

Pat Durkin - 23 Jan 2004 21:33 GMT
> > I've still got two friends who are unselfconsciously called Dick. It
> > doesn't seem to present a problem.
>
> My uncle named his two sons Peter and Dick.  I seem to be the only one who
> noticed.

Well, your name is the place where your cousins whip it out most often.

Seems to me your folks and your uncle need a woodshedding.  But it is a bit
late.
Charles Riggs - 24 Jan 2004 08:03 GMT
>> I've still got two friends who are unselfconsciously called Dick. It
>> doesn't seem to present a problem.
>
>My uncle named his two sons Peter and Dick.  I seem to be the only one who
>noticed.

More serious was when an acquaintance of my father, a Mr Dick, named
his newborn Harry. He, not Harry, considered it highly amusing.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Mickwick - 24 Jan 2004 11:04 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Charles Riggs wrote:

>More serious was when an acquaintance of my father, a Mr Dick, named
>his newborn Harry. He, not Harry, considered it highly amusing.

A friend surnamed Cove named his first-born Sandy.

Signature

Mickwick

Laura F Spira - 24 Jan 2004 11:25 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Charles Riggs wrote:
>
>> More serious was when an acquaintance of my father, a Mr Dick, named
>> his newborn Harry. He, not Harry, considered it highly amusing.
>
> A friend surnamed Cove named his first-born Sandy.

My mother knew a Pearl Button and my aunt's first names were Violet Ray
(but that wouldn't have seemed so odd around 1915, I suppose.)

I am reading a book by a Harvard professor called Lynn Sharp Paine. I
assume that her maiden name was Sharp and she just couldn't resist the
combination. The acknowledgements reveal that her husband is called Tom.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Frances Kemmish - 24 Jan 2004 14:51 GMT
>> In alt.usage.english, Charles Riggs wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> assume that her maiden name was Sharp and she just couldn't resist the
> combination. The acknowledgements reveal that her husband is called Tom.

I'm sure I've mentioned before that I used to work with a man called
Robin Banks. Checking to see the last time I brought it up, I found lots
of references to a female blues singer also called Robin Banks.

At least it's memorable.

Signature

Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com

R H Draney - 24 Jan 2004 17:30 GMT
Laura F Spira filted:

>I am reading a book by a Harvard professor called Lynn Sharp Paine. I
>assume that her maiden name was Sharp and she just couldn't resist the
>combination. The acknowledgements reveal that her husband is called Tom.

Every Monday night, Jay Leno does a feature he calls "Headlines" which usually
includes a list of humorous wedding announcements...the family names being
joined are often used as the headline when such announcements are placed in the
newspaper, so his viewers scour the local notices for things like the
"Gettinet-Dailey" wedding...the list usually ends with one that plays on the
phallic significance of a certain very common name; "Aiken-Johnson" once got one
of the biggest laughs....

The best I've been able to find was a bride who *could* have hyphenated her
married name as "Brown-Pyle"....r
Wade Hassler - 26 Jan 2004 18:02 GMT
> Laura F Spira filted:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> The best I've been able to find was a bride who *could* have hyphenated her
> married name as "Brown-Pyle"....r

There was one in the National Lampoon 'True Facts' section waybackwhen
who could have hyphenated hers "Swallows-Cox." But likely didn't.
Richard Bollard - 30 Jan 2004 02:03 GMT
>Laura F Spira filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>The best I've been able to find was a bride who *could* have hyphenated her
>married name as "Brown-Pyle"....r

National Lampoon's True Facts section had, inter alia, Swallows - Cox
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra, Australia

Matti Lamprhey - 25 Jan 2004 00:13 GMT
"Laura F Spira" <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote...
> > In alt.usage.english, Charles Riggs wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> combination. The acknowledgements reveal that her husband is called
> Tom.

Do you remember, years ago, a BBC series about nurses, called _Angels_?
One of the young male nurses was played by Martin Barrass, and since
then I've noticed many other people with that surname having a forename
beginning with 'M'.

Matti
david56 - 25 Jan 2004 11:12 GMT
Matti Lamprhey spake thus:

> "Laura F Spira" <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote...
> > > In alt.usage.english, Charles Riggs wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> then I've noticed many other people with that surname having a forename
> beginning with 'M'.

Good Grief, you remember the men?  What about Nurse Rose Butchins,
eh?  She is the partner of Richard "Countdowns" Whiteley.  Bet you
didn't know that.

Signature

David
=====

Matti Lamprhey - 26 Jan 2004 08:47 GMT
"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote...
> Matti Lamprhey spake thus:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> eh?  She is the partner of Richard "Countdowns" Whiteley.  Bet you
> didn't know that.

I didn't know that.  She was a great nurse -- I always think of her if I
ever have a chest complaint, coming.

Matti
-- Truss me:  I'm a punctuation expurt
Skitt - 27 Jan 2004 02:29 GMT
> "david56" wrote...
>> Matti Lamprhey spake thus:

>>> Do you remember, years ago, a BBC series about nurses, called
>>> _Angels_?  One of the young male nurses was played by Martin
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Matti
> -- Truss me:  I'm a punctuation expurt

As long as it was good for you, that's OK.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/  

Charles Riggs - 27 Jan 2004 08:55 GMT
>"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote...
>> Matti Lamprhey spake thus:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>I didn't know that.  She was a great nurse -- I always think of her if I
>ever have a chest complaint, coming.

Cute. Good thing I read the sig line.

>Matti
>-- Truss me:  I'm a punctuation expurt
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Robert Lieblich - 24 Jan 2004 14:38 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Charles Riggs wrote:
>
> >More serious was when an acquaintance of my father, a Mr Dick, named
> >his newborn Harry. He, not Harry, considered it highly amusing.
>
> A friend surnamed Cove named his first-born Sandy.

Time once again, I guess, to bring up my grammar-school classmate
Iva Payne.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
This post dedicated to Robin Bignall

Tony Cooper - 24 Jan 2004 16:09 GMT
>> In alt.usage.english, Charles Riggs wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Time once again, I guess, to bring up my grammar-school classmate
>Iva Payne.

Add the lady I met named Bunny Rabitt.  She was not named Bunny at
birth, but legally changed her name to Bunny when she was in her early
20s.  She said that's what every called her, so she might as be Bunny.
John Varela - 24 Jan 2004 18:28 GMT
> Time once again, I guess, to bring up my grammar-school classmate
> Iva Payne.

In college I knew Peter (Pete) Toohy, pronounced Ptui.

Signature

John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much.

Mark Browne - 27 Jan 2004 14:19 GMT
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, in alt.usage.english, Mickwick
<mickwick@use.reply.to> writes
>In alt.usage.english, Charles Riggs wrote:
>
>>More serious was when an acquaintance of my father, a Mr Dick, named
>>his newborn Harry. He, not Harry, considered it highly amusing.
>
>A friend surnamed Cove named his first-born Sandy.

I was disappointed that my sister and brother-in-law, named Day, did not
call either of their children "Holly".
Signature

Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the
"From" address will be rejected

Charles Riggs - 23 Jan 2004 07:11 GMT
>[1] When I was in high school (late 1950s), "Dick" used to be a
>perfectly acceptable name, not subject to anatomy-type jokes, at least
>not openly. If there *were* jokes being made, most of the girls were not
>privy to them.

That must have been the case. The OED has the word going back to 1891
with the meaning of penis; I suspect it is far older. Am I remembering
right that Shakespeare used it that way a time or two?

Back in the early 60s, we used to tease our classmate Richard Steele
by calling him Steel Dick. Actually, I think he rather liked the joke.

>Sometimes I long for those innocent days.

Yeah, bring back those good old nuclear attack drills.

PS -- Kerry will be the hands-down winner in New Hampshire next week.
My crystal ball, assisted by knowledge of the results from the most
recent US polls, also tells me a Democrat will be the next President.
Happy days are here again.

What an a.s Bush made of himself, reaffirming his idiocy, during his
State of the Union address. Hard for me to decide whether to laugh or
cry as I watched his performance.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Maria Conlon - 23 Jan 2004 14:38 GMT
>> Sometimes I long for those innocent days.
>
> Yeah, bring back those good old nuclear attack drills.

"Air raid drills."

> PS -- Kerry will be the hands-down winner in New Hampshire next week.
> My crystal ball, assisted by knowledge of the results from the most
> recent US polls, also tells me a Democrat will be the next President.
> Happy days are here again.

PS -- Sure, Kerry will probably win in New Hampshire, despite the
obvious moral superiority of Joe Lieberman. The rest of your crystal
ball's prediction is pure fantasy. You may as well ask questions of one
of those 8-ball things.

> What an a.s Bush made of himself, reaffirming his idiocy, during his
> State of the Union address. Hard for me to decide whether to laugh or
cry as I watched his performance.

The one who made an a.s of himself was Ted Kennedy, but it played well
in Kennedy-Kerry liberal-lefty Massachusetts, no doubt. As for Bush's
performance, I applauded. Didn't you like the "permission slip"
statement? And didn't you gag at the Democratic responses? Talk about
weak.

But enough U. S.  politics. You need to be *here*, Charles, IMO, to get
the full flavor. So let us get back to poor Hortense. Where is
"Hortense" today, besides in the middle of Matti's full name? Will
"Jennifer," or "Ashley," or "Kaitlin" (of any spelling) or
"McKenzie-McKenna-McSurname," or "Cameron-Lindsey-Jordan"(of either sex)
have the same fate as "Hortense" in the not-too-distant future? (That
is: Will those names be lost except in occasional middle-name slots?
Will they be unpopular as anything but newsgroup topics?) Will "Mary,"
and "Elizabeth" and "Carol" and "Ruth" and "Charles" and "George" and
"Ronald" and "Hughie," and "Dewey," and "Louie" make comebacks?

These are important, on-topic questions, and people expecting to name
children within the immediate future need answers. To name one's
children names the same as one-half of their kindergarten class is not
good. To name one's children names that better suit the sex they are not
is not good.

Let us help future parents and future children. It's the least aue can
do.

Signature

Maria Conlon

Jerry Friedman - 23 Jan 2004 20:09 GMT
...

> > What an a.s Bush made of himself, reaffirming his idiocy, during his
> > State of the Union address. Hard for me to decide whether to laugh or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> performance, I applauded. Didn't you like the "permission slip"
> statement?

I agreed with it, but as it has no relevance to recent history (I
didn't hear anyone say we should have asked permission to invade
Afghanistan), I interpreted it as a further nauseating attempt to
suggest, without the outright lie of saying so, that the invasion of
Iraq was self-defense.

By the way, in the other sound bite I heard, Mr. Bush mentioned the
"liberation of Iraq".  Sorry, but a country being ruled by a foreign
country is not free.  There seems to be a pretty good chance that
we'll stop ruling them even de facto, and some small chance that they
won't immediately return to dictatorship.  If that happens, it will be
time to talk about liberation.

> And didn't you gag at the Democratic responses? Talk about
> weak.
...

Missed 'em.  "Weak" would not surprise me.  (For one thing, they have
to make some of it up themselves.)  I take it nobody here heard my
governor's response in Spanish?  I sure didn't.

Signature

Jerry Friedman

Pat Durkin - 23 Jan 2004 21:31 GMT
> > Didn't you like the "permission slip"
> > statement?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> won't immediately return to dictatorship.  If that happens, it will be
> time to talk about liberation.

This is not the first time the President has used "liberation" as our reason
for being there in Iraq.  It is frightening to me that he will use these
calls on the emotions of the WWII generation.
Charles Riggs - 24 Jan 2004 08:04 GMT
>>> Sometimes I long for those innocent days.
>>
>> Yeah, bring back those good old nuclear attack drills.
>
>"Air raid drills."

Did we think it'd be Russian airplanes delivering nuclear bombs or
that it'd more likely be missiles equipped with nuclear warheads
dropping in our yards?

Air raid drills are what they had in London a decade earlier.

>> PS -- Kerry will be the hands-down winner in New Hampshire next week.
>> My crystal ball, assisted by knowledge of the results from the most
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>ball's prediction is pure fantasy. You may as well ask questions of one
>of those 8-ball things.

We'll see in November who, you or me, is right. After the resignation
of the arms inspector, along with what he had to say about Bush's
foolish proclaimed justification for attacking Iraq, I'm even more
certain Bush is going down. Going down big time. Happy days will soon
be here again.

>> What an a.s Bush made of himself, reaffirming his idiocy, during his
>> State of the Union address. Hard for me to decide whether to laugh or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>performance, I applauded. Didn't you like the "permission slip"
>statement?

As much as I liked his 'dead or alive' statement. Your man is a
cowboy.  In the eyes of the world, he looks like the fool he is. Some
wool appears to still be covering your eyes, however. I hope you'll
see the light soon.

>But enough U. S.  politics. You need to be *here*, Charles, IMO, to get
>the full flavor.

No, you need to be in Europe. Only here will you get the larger
picture. People are laughing at Bush and, as a result, Americans, if
you people in the Midwest hadn't realized that by now. Thankfully, a
large number of voters live on the one, or the other, coast. There are
a few in-between who also recognize the urgency of ridding the world
of Mr Bush's influence. He is a very dangerous man, as is any deluded
evangelist who wields a large amount of power.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Pat Durkin - 24 Jan 2004 18:01 GMT
> >But enough U. S.  politics. You need to be *here*, Charles, IMO, to get
> >the full flavor.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of Mr Bush's influence. He is a very dangerous man, as is any deluded
> evangelist who wields a large amount of power.

Another egregious slam at the Midwest.
Maria Conlon - 24 Jan 2004 19:35 GMT
[regarding Charles Riggs's comment]

> Another egregious slam at the Midwest.

Yes. Pat, you and I and the other sensible AUEers (most of whom are in
the Midwest or at least have spent part of their lives here) need to get
together and form a -- what? A club, a committee, a think tank?  No...
um -- wait a minute! I know! A mob. Yes, a mob, formed specifically to
teach them whippersnappers and smart-alecks from the coasts a thing or
two.

I'm ready to take 'em on.

Signature

Maria Conlon

Bob Cunningham - 24 Jan 2004 20:18 GMT
> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]

> > Another egregious slam at the Midwest.

> Yes. Pat, you and I and the other sensible AUEers (most of whom are in
> the Midwest or at least have spent part of their lives here) need to get
> together and form a -- what? A club, a committee, a think tank?  No...
> um -- wait a minute! I know! A mob. Yes, a mob, formed specifically to
> teach them whippersnappers and smart-alecks from the coasts a thing or
> two.

Which coast is Ireland on?

> I'm ready to take 'em on.
Charles Riggs - 25 Jan 2004 03:56 GMT
>> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Which coast is Ireland on?

Its inhabitants apparently think it is on the East coast since they
flock in droves to Boston and New York, rarely going further west. No
need to really, so I applaud their preference.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Maria Conlon - 25 Jan 2004 20:32 GMT
>> Maria Conlon said:
>>> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> flock in droves to Boston and New York, rarely going further west. No
> need to really, so I applaud their preference.

I am thankful the Conlons (from Carrick-on-Shannon) continued in a
western direction and settled in Detroit. Smart folks. One of them did
end up in California some years later, but he was not quite as bright as
his brothers and sisters, and probably felt at home out there.

Signature

Maria Conlon

Maria Conlon - 25 Jan 2004 20:31 GMT
> Maria Conlon said:
>> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Which coast is Ireland on?
>[...]

I was referring to the east and west coasts of the US. I realize this
was not made clear. When I said "AUEers," I meant Amercian AUEers,
forgetting temporarily that dissers of the Midwest could be from
anywhere in AUEland.

I'm sorry that I confused people.

By the way, the mob I propose will welcome volunteers from the UK,
Ireland, Canada, Australia, and other English-speaking locales.

Signature

Maria Conlon

Bob Cunningham - 25 Jan 2004 22:45 GMT
> > Maria Conlon said:
> >> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I was referring to the east and west coasts of the US. I realize this
> was not made clear.

I thought it was quite clear that you were referring to
Charles Riggs, since he was the slammer that Pat Durkin had
slammed.
Maria Conlon - 26 Jan 2004 01:08 GMT
> Maria Conlon said:
>>> Maria Conlon said:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Charles Riggs, since he was the slammer that Pat Durkin had
> slammed.

Interesting. My post was a response, more or less, to Charles's remarks
(as, of course, was obvious), but the coasts were as I just said -- east
and west coasts of the US. Charles's posts have been known to include
criticism of the Midwest and praise of the east and west US coasts. My
posts have been known to contradict what Charles says about the Midwest
and the coasts. Ireland rarely comes into it.

And "slamming"? "Friendly jousting" is a more apt term, I think.

I've grown rather fond, by the way, of "Hortense." Thus, I've
reinstalled the name in first place in the subject line.

Signature

Maria Conlon

Charles Riggs - 26 Jan 2004 03:50 GMT
>Charles's posts have been known to include
>criticism of the Midwest and praise of the east and west US coasts. My
>posts have been known to contradict what Charles says about the Midwest
>and the coasts.

I'll let you in on a little secret, Maria: I was born smack dab in the
middle of the country, far away from either coast. I like ALL of
America, still recognizing that certain parts of it are culturally
superior to certain others. Six months after being born, I left the
wholly wilds of the beautiful, but wishy-washy, In-Between and settled
on the solid banks of the East coast, in the America our Founding
Fathers founded. I never regretted the trip of course, but I have no
problem whatever with those who remained behind, or even those who
made the reverse trip, ho-ho-ho, if there are such folk. Westward-ho,
yes, but I'd hope the travelers would know not to get off prematurely,
either 'I Love New York' or 'California, Here I Come' being the song
I'd assume they were singing.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Mickwick - 26 Jan 2004 11:48 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Maria Conlon wrote:

>By the way, the mob I propose will welcome volunteers from the UK,
>Ireland, Canada, Australia, and other English-speaking locales.

May I join, please?

As a token of goodwill, here is part of the supposedly anonymous (but
probably from Illuminatus! or something) 'Manifesto of the Artistic
Elite of the Midwest' (cut and pasted (so its not my flaut)):

       We believe in the sanity and stability of the Midwest and refute
       those of either coast who see the heartland as oppressive,
       backward, uncultured (we _are_ redneck, motherf..ker), etc.
       This is propaganda created by the intellectual power elite of
       the East in their cynical and ruthless attempt to keep the
       chains on middle america.  We claim solidarity with the Third
       World as an exploited people! As one of the richest Third World
       nations we vow to beat our Winebagos in plowshares in order to
       do our part in the growing Third World alliance. [...] This is a
       call for solidarity of all Midwestern peoples so that we can
       refute the political ideas of the East, to call a halt to the
       convenient image of the Midwest as a passive land filled with
       bumpkins and hay- seeds.  Of easily led puppets, of a land
       easily dominated by the ideas and wills of our English speaking
       cousins.  We're not your puppets anymore! We need to restructure
       our Eastern dominated universities. Solidarity with the Canadian
       Midlands. Solidarity with the Ukraine!

http://mud.lysator.liu.se/cgi-bin/finger.pl?who=beldin

Let us climb aboard the Winnebago of regional autonomy and block the
highway of littoral hegemony! If we drive slowly enough, together we can
refute the East Coast!

Signature

Mickwick

Laura F Spira - 26 Jan 2004 22:13 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Maria Conlon wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> probably from Illuminatus! or something) 'Manifesto of the Artistic
> Elite of the Midwest' (cut and pasted (so its not my flaut)):

Flaut is good (I assume it was deliberate).

<snip>

> http://mud.lysator.liu.se/cgi-bin/finger.pl?who=beldin

Blimey, that last paragraph about archbishops was a bit racy...

> Let us climb aboard the Winnebago of regional autonomy and block the
> highway of littoral hegemony! If we drive slowly enough, together we can
> refute the East Coast!

That's a bit too wordy for the banner, though: can you come up with
something pithier, please?

And, now I come to think of it, whatever happened to the Axis of
Misbehaviour? Tootsie?

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Maria Conlon - 26 Jan 2004 23:49 GMT
> And, now I come to think of it, whatever happened to the Axis of
> Misbehaviour? Tootsie?

I've misbehaved so much that you and the others don't need to. It seems
I've found my true talent after all these years -- making people
extremely angry just by stating my opinions. Oh, well. When we get the
mob going, I'll ask for deputies to do the angering so I can recoup.

Signature

Maria Conlon

Charles Riggs - 27 Jan 2004 08:55 GMT
>> And, now I come to think of it, whatever happened to the Axis of
>> Misbehaviour? Tootsie?
>
>I've misbehaved so much that you and the others don't need to. It seems
>I've found my true talent after all these years -- making people
>extremely angry just by stating my opinions.

Shitfire, Maria, I could have taught you that talent years ago. Great
crack to be an American in a small town in Ireland, so it is.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Bob Cunningham - 27 Jan 2004 01:58 GMT
[ . . . ]

> That's a bit too wordy for the banner, though: can you
> come up with something pithier, please?

That brings to mind a cartoon I saw in a magazine sometime
before WWII and found sorta amusing:  Two showgirls are in
their dressing room.  A sign says "Damon and Pythias Show".
One of the girls says to the other "Let's go out and get
Pythias drunk".

A pithier slogan for the backwoods mob could be "Urinalot of
trouble if you mess with us".
Mickwick - 29 Jan 2004 19:21 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Bob Cunningham wrote:

>A pithier slogan for the backwoods mob could be "Urinalot of
>trouble if you mess with us".

Or: 'Always two hours ahead of California'.

Signature

Mickwick

Spehro Pefhany <Spehro Pefhany - 29 Jan 2004 19:56 GMT
>In alt.usage.english, Bob Cunningham wrote:
>
>>A pithier slogan for the backwoods mob could be "Urinalot of
>>trouble if you mess with us".
>
>Or: 'Always two hours ahead of California'.

'Gateway to flyover country'.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
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david56 - 26 Jan 2004 12:01 GMT
Maria Conlon spake thus:

> > Maria Conlon said:
> >> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> By the way, the mob I propose will welcome volunteers from the UK,
> Ireland, Canada, Australia, and other English-speaking locales.

Thank you for the invitation.  Before I apply, how far do "the
coasts" stretch inland?   I am well away from the coast here in
Warrington, but you might think that 25 miles does not separate me by
enough to qualify for membership of your mob.  Nowhere in the UK is
more than about 100 miles from the sea.

Signature

David
=====

Dr Robin Bignall - 26 Jan 2004 21:50 GMT
>Maria Conlon spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>enough to qualify for membership of your mob.  Nowhere in the UK is
>more than about 100 miles from the sea.

True, but I'd like to apply because I must have flown over the Midwest a
time or two. As far as I can remember, it was a great experience, and
belonging to a well-organised mob appeals to me.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Maria Conlon - 26 Jan 2004 23:59 GMT
> Maria Conlon spake thus:

>> By the way, the mob I propose will welcome volunteers from the UK,
>> Ireland, Canada, Australia, and other English-speaking locales.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> enough to qualify for membership of your mob.  Nowhere in the UK is
> more than about 100 miles from the sea.

That's okay. The only coasts that might present problems to the Great
Midwest Mob are those that lie on the right and left sides of the
contiguous 48 states.[1] Residents of other coastal areas in the world
don't seem to think ill of the Midwest -- in fact, they may not think of
the Midwest at all.

[1] And not all the residents of those US coasts are anti-Midwest. Some
of them are simply pro-coast. I can live with that.

Signature

Maria Conlon

Laura F Spira - 24 Jan 2004 22:42 GMT
> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I'm ready to take 'em on.

I've spent a week in Omaha and five days in Chicago. Am I sensible?

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Truly Donovan - 25 Jan 2004 01:52 GMT
>I've spent a week in Omaha and five days in Chicago. Am I sensible?

That's seven more days than I've spent in Omaha, but I've got you
beat all hollow for Chicago.

OBaue: How did "all hollow" come to mean "completely"?
Signature

Truly Donovan
Lexy Connor mysteries: Chandler's Daughter, Winslow's Wife
http://www.trulydonovan.com
truly@trulydonovan.com

Murray Arnow - 25 Jan 2004 03:35 GMT
> OBaue: How did "all hollow" come to mean "completely"?

The only reference I could quickly find comes from John Ciardi:

beat all hollow 1. To beat overwhelmingly. 2. To be better than in    
every way. "Drinking beats working all hollow." ["Beat hollow" is    
attested in Brit. 1759. "All hollow," which is Am. only, attested    
1762. "Hollow" is prob. a corruption of "wholely." If so, the      
original Brit. form may have been "to beat wholely"; and the Am.
"all" may be a root echo of the lost "wholely."]
Evan Kirshenbaum - 25 Jan 2004 05:29 GMT
> > OBaue: How did "all hollow" come to mean "completely"?
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> original Brit. form may have been "to beat wholely"; and the Am.
> "all" may be a root echo of the lost "wholely."]

Hmm.  Lots more hits for "wholely" than I would have thought.  What's
the distribution for "wholely" vs. "wholly"?  (The latter leads about
172:1 on Google.)

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Martin Ambuhl - 25 Jan 2004 04:22 GMT
> OBaue: How did "all hollow" come to mean "completely"?

This is what OED2 has to say:

hollow, a. and adv.
[...]
   A. adj.
[...]
   6. [f. the adv.: cf. B. 2.] Complete, thorough, out-and-out. colloq.
   1750 Coventry Pompey Litt. i. xvi. (1785) 41/1 It was quite a hollow
thing; Goliah won the day.
   1761 Colman Jealous Wife v. (D.), So, my lord, you and I are both
distanced; a hollow thing, damme.
   1852 Dickens Bleak Ho. lxiv, Which, in the opinion of my friends, is a
hollow bargain.
   1894 Times 31 July 11/1 The Prince's cutter steadily left her opponent
and gained a very hollow victory.
[...]
   B. adv.
   2. Thoroughly, completely, out-and-out; also (U.S.) all hollow. colloq.
   [The origin of this is obscure, and has excited conjecture from its
first appearance in literature.]
   1668–71 Skinner Etymol. Ling. Angl. s.v., He carried it Hollow,
Luculenter Vicit vel Superavit,..credo dictum quasi ‘he carried it wholy’.
   1762 Foote Orators i. Wks. 1799 I. 193 Foote... You succeeded? Suds...
Yes, yes, I got it all hollow.
   1767 Chesterfield Lett. (1794) IV. cccxxi. 267 He set up for the County
of Middlesex, and carried it hollow, as the jockeys say.
   1786 Wolcott (P. Pindar) Farew. Odes xiv. Wks. 1794 I. 185 I'm greatly
pleas'd..To see the foreigners beat hollow.
   1824 W. Irving T. Trav. II. 39 Her blood carried it all hollow.
   1839 Times 19 Oct., In the article of hypocrisy..as in sheer impudence,
Minto has it hollow.
   1851 J. H. Newman Cath. in Eng. 367 Local opinion would carry it hollow
against popular opinion.
   1859 Geo. Eliot A. Bede 47 She beats us younger people hollow.
[...]

Signature

Martin Ambuhl

Richard Maurer - 25 Jan 2004 09:29 GMT
<< [Truly Donovan]
That's seven more days than I've spent in Omaha, but I've got you
beat all hollow for Chicago.

OBaue: How did "all hollow" come to mean "completely"?
[end quote] >>

<< [Murray Arnow]
The only reference I could quickly find comes from John Ciardi:

beat all hollow 1. To beat overwhelmingly. 2. To be better than in    
every way. "Drinking beats working all hollow." ["Beat hollow" is    
attested in Brit. 1759. "All hollow," which is Am. only, attested    
1762. "Hollow" is prob. a corruption of "wholely." If so, the      
original Brit. form may have been "to beat wholely"; and the Am.
"all" may be a root echo of the lost "wholely."]
[end quote] >>

<< [Martin Ambuhl]
This is what OED2 has to say:

hollow, a. and adv.
[...]
   A. adj.
[...]
   6. [f. the adv.: cf. B. 2.] Complete, thorough, out-and-out. colloq.
   1750 Coventry Pompey Litt. i. xvi. (1785) 41/1 It was quite a hollow
thing; Goliah won the day.
   1761 Colman Jealous Wife v. (D.), So, my lord, you and I are both
distanced; a hollow thing, damme.
   1852 Dickens Bleak Ho. lxiv, Which, in the opinion of my friends, is a
hollow bargain.
   1894 Times 31 July 11/1 The Prince's cutter steadily left her opponent
and gained a very hollow victory.
[...]
   B. adv.
   2. Thoroughly, completely, out-and-out; also (U.S.) all hollow. colloq.
   [The origin of this is obscure, and has excited conjecture from its
first appearance in literature.]
   1668–71 Skinner Etymol. Ling. Angl. s.v., He carried it Hollow,
Luculenter Vicit vel Superavit,..credo dictum quasi 'he carried it wholy'.
   1762 Foote Orators i. Wks. 1799 I. 193 Foote... You succeeded? Suds...
Yes, yes, I got it all hollow.
   1767 Chesterfield Lett. (1794) IV. cccxxi. 267 He set up for the County
of Middlesex, and carried it hollow, as the jockeys say.
   1786 Wolcott (P. Pindar) Farew. Odes xiv. Wks. 1794 I. 185 I'm greatly
pleas'd..To see the foreigners beat hollow.
   1824 W. Irving T. Trav. II. 39 Her blood carried it all hollow.
   1839 Times 19 Oct., In the article of hypocrisy..as in sheer impudence,
Minto has it hollow.
   1851 J. H. Newman Cath. in Eng. 367 Local opinion would carry it hollow
against popular opinion.
   1859 Geo. Eliot A. Bede 47 She beats us younger people hollow.
[...]
[end quote] >>

This is completely new to me.
I note in the above:
   "The Prince's cutter steadily left her opponent
   and gained a very hollow victory."
I always took "hollow victory" with the "empty, superficial" meaning.
The "complete" sense does not appear in my AmHer1(1969),
so may I take it that all of the above are archaic?
How should we read "hollow victory" today?

What other idioms use this "complete" hollow?
How much repair work is needed?

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Zimmer - 25 Jan 2004 19:46 GMT
> << [Truly Donovan]
> OBaue: How did "all hollow" come to mean "completely"?
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>     [The origin of this is obscure, and has excited conjecture from its
> first appearance in literature.]
[snip]
> [end quote] >>
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The "complete" sense does not appear in my AmHer1(1969),
> so may I take it that all of the above are archaic?

I don't see "hollow = complete" listed in any of the major dictionaries
besides OED, so I think we can safely consider it archaic.  Even the
adverbial "hollow = completely" seems rather obsolete to me, surviving
(for some) in the fixed expression "all hollow".

> How should we read "hollow victory" today?

I think one can only read this now as "empty/worthless/false victory".
From the looks of the OED cites, this was only a contronym [1] in the
18th-19th centuries.  

Speaking of historical contronyms, we discussed "stay the course" here
back in December [2].  William Safire happened to make a query about
this phrase in his "On Language" column, and my response (based on the
AUE discussion) ended up appearing in his column two weeks ago (still
available on the International Herald Tribune site [3]).

[1]
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxwhatwo.html
[2]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3FD76EDB.FB391D95@midway.uchicago.edu
[3]
http://www.iht.com/articles/124575.html
Martin Ambuhl - 25 Jan 2004 20:15 GMT
> I don't see "hollow = complete" listed in any of the major dictionaries
> besides OED, so I think we can safely consider it archaic.  Even the
> adverbial "hollow = completely" seems rather obsolete to me, surviving
> (for some) in the fixed expression "all hollow".

You have a perverse sense of what qualifies as a major dictionary.

Perhaps you don't consider SOED5 a major dictionary or, perhaps, as
distinct from the OED.  In any case, it has
 hollow
 [...]
 B /adverb/ [...]
 2 Thoroughly, completely. /coloq./ M17
   Geo. Eliot: "She beat us younger people hollow."
It is not marked obsolete, and does not have a terminus ante, which SOED5
supplies for words it considers no longer living.

Perhaps you don't consider Chambers (2003) a major dictionary.  Once again
you would be in error.  It has -- and this is the primary adverbial use it
gives --
 hollow
 [...]
 /adv/ completely, as in /beat/ (ie defeat) /someone hollow/; [...]
Once again, no marking as obsolete.

Perhaps you don't consider MWCD11 (2003) a major dictionary.  Once again
you would be in error.  There we find
 hollow /adv/ (1601)
 [...]
 2 : completely, thoroughly <an ongoing story that has the old
     cowboy-and-Indians genre beat [hollow] - Barbara Bannon> -- ofter used
     with /all/
Once again, no marking as obsolete.

Perhaps you should rethink any claim based on your extemely obscure idea of
what is a major dictionary.

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Martin Ambuhl

Evan Kirshenbaum - 25 Jan 2004 20:31 GMT
> > I don't see "hollow = complete" listed in any of the major
> > dictionaries besides OED, so I think we can safely consider it
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> You have a perverse sense of what qualifies as a major dictionary.

Would you be more satisfied with a restatement:

 Even the adverbial "hollow = completely" seems rather obsolete to
 me, surviving (for some) in the fixed expression "beat (all)
 hollow".

I note that all three dictionaries you cite refer to the word "beat",
and I'd say that I've only heard it used in that fixed phrase.  I
can't imagine it being used with another verb except as a conscious
play on "beat all hollow".

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Ben Zimmer - 25 Jan 2004 22:42 GMT
> > I don't see "hollow = complete" listed in any of the major dictionaries
> > besides OED, so I think we can safely consider it archaic.  Even the
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Perhaps you should rethink any claim based on your extemely obscure idea of
> what is a major dictionary.

Perhaps you should reread my claim -- of the major dictionaries, only
the OED lists "hollow" meaning "complete", i.e., in its *adjectival*
sense.  (Richard Maurer was asking about a cite where "hollow victory"
was construed to mean "complete victory".)  The references you've given
are all for "hollow" in its *adverbial* sense ("completely"), which I
granted is a usage that survives in some people's active vocabulary.  

But as Evan points out, even the adverbial sense only seems possible in
"beat (all) hollow", which would put "hollow" in the same category as
"caboodle", "druthers", "kibosh", "vim", and various other fossilized
lexical items.  See Jeff Sherman's list of "verbal vestigia" and Mike
Bandy's commentary thereon:

http://bookshelf.info/wordlists/v/vev/www/
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dmpehvoe066p9h3p9g8vo9suqvf8mi5lmk@4ax.com
Richard Maurer - 26 Jan 2004 02:53 GMT
<< [Ben Zimmer]
Perhaps you should reread my claim -- of the major dictionaries, only
the OED lists "hollow" meaning "complete", i.e., in its *adjectival*
sense.  (Richard Maurer was asking about a cite where "hollow victory"
was construed to mean "complete victory".)  The references you've given
are all for "hollow" in its *adverbial* sense ("completely"), which I
granted is a usage that survives in some people's active vocabulary.  

But as Evan points out, even the adverbial sense only seems possible in
"beat (all) hollow", which would put "hollow" in the same category as
"caboodle", "druthers", "kibosh", "vim", and various other fossilized
lexical items.  See Jeff Sherman's list of "verbal vestigia" and Mike
Bandy's commentary thereon:
[end quote] >>

Adjective or adverb, active or passive -- anything with the "complete"
sense was completely unfamiliar.  Perhaps when it made its way
to California the phrase had morphed to "beat it to hell" or
"beat it all to hell" or "beat all to hell" or "beat all".

As for "hollow victory", the quote with the "complete" sense
was from 1895, which does not seem all that long ago.
Did the "empty victory" meaning start after 1895, or was
there a long period when both meanings were active?

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Zimmer - 26 Jan 2004 05:32 GMT
> As for "hollow victory", the quote with the "complete" sense
> was from 1895, which does not seem all that long ago.
> Did the "empty victory" meaning start after 1895, or was
> there a long period when both meanings were active?

"Hollow" meaning "empty, false" is attested back to the 16th century.
I'm not sure when "hollow victory" in that sense began to be used, but
it was certainly before the 1895 quote.  ProQuest has it back to 1848:

    The Position of the Democratic Party -- Southern Alliance.
    National Era, Nov 30, 1848.
    Though it [the Democratic Party] might at first win
    a hollow victory, its ultimate defeat and extinction
    would be as certain as that the spirit of the age is
    progressive.

And here's a Making of America cite from 1866 (also, oddly enough, about
the Democratic Party):

    http://tinyurl.com/39sfy
    The Origin of the Late War, by George Lunt. 1866.
    The Democratic success in the election proved, in
    fact, but a hollow victory.
Robert Bannister - 27 Jan 2004 00:51 GMT
>>As for "hollow victory", the quote with the "complete" sense
>>was from 1895, which does not seem all that long ago.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I'm not sure when "hollow victory" in that sense began to be used, but
> it was certainly before the 1895 quote.  ProQuest has it back to 1848:

While we've been puzzling over 'hollow', my mind wandered to 'level
best' - the only meaning I can find in M-W that seems close is d(i)
steady or unwavering.
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Rob Bannister

Martin Ambuhl - 27 Jan 2004 01:46 GMT
> While we've been puzzling over 'hollow', my mind wandered to 'level
> best' - the only meaning I can find in M-W that seems close is d(i)
> steady or unwavering.

I'm sure I've missed what the question is, but here are some tidbits to
chew on.

COD10 has, s.v. level, the bare
 PHRASES /do one’s level best/ make all possible efforts.

The MWCD11 entry that you refer to had me puzzled, until I realized you
meant 2d(i) of the entry "level". After definition 7, you will see an entry
even shorter than that of COD10:
  –level best : very best

And here we have, from OED2 s.v. "level":
  9. one's level best: one's very best; the utmost one can possibly do.
Also levelest in the same sense, and similarly level worst, etc. colloq. or
slang (orig. U.S.).
   Of these only level best is standard in the U.K.
   1851 An Arkansaw Doctor 87 (Th.), We put our horses out at their level
        best.
   1873 E. E. Hale (title) His Level Best.
   1882 Illustr. Sport. News 29 July 467/2 His was an honest old
        hairy-heeled hunter, no doubt, and did her level best.
   1884 ‘Mark Twain’ Huck. Finn xxviii. 270 The old man..was on hand and
         looking his level pisonest.
   1885 Rider Haggard K. Solomon's Mines (1887) 102 Then came a pause, each
        man aiming his level best.
   1891 Harper's Mag. July 208/2 The pony will not do his level worst
        again.
   1898 H. S. Canfield Maid of Frontier 97 She told me..that she was goin'
        to do her levelest to make our little home comfortable.
   1920 Galsworthy In Chancery ii. vii. 186 Val walked out behind his
        mother, chin squared, eyelids drooped, doing his level best to
        despise everybody.
   1933 M. Lowry Ultramarine 205 You've been doing your level best to make
        life a misery to me since we left home.
   1937 V. Bartlett This is my Life xi. 179 Everyone was doing his level
        best to make me feel nervous.
   1953 R. Lehmann Echoing Grove ii. 89 When the pain nagged he thought
        about the relation between worry and his acid juices, and did his
        level best to stop worrying.
   1969 Listener 24 Apr. 556/1 He did his level best to suppress the views
        of other members of the embassy.

Green contributes (and I'm not sure about his slang label for the US)
 level best/level/dead level best /n./ [19C+] (orig. US) one's very best
       efforts (cf. 'level worst').  [note that /level best/ is SE in UK
       but sl. in US]
 level worst /n./ [19C] (US) one's worst attempt or effor. [reverse of
       'level best']

Chapman & Kipfer (was Wentworth & Flexner) give only a data (1851) as
additional information.

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Martin Ambuhl

Donna Richoux - 27 Jan 2004 09:29 GMT
> > While we've been puzzling over 'hollow', my mind wandered to 'level
> > best' - the only meaning I can find in M-W that seems close is d(i)
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>     1882 Illustr. Sport. News 29 July 467/2 His was an honest old
>          hairy-heeled hunter, no doubt, and did her level best.
[snip]

Looks like horse talk, don't it? A "hunter" being a kind of horse. So a
horse's level best would have been how fast it could run on level
ground.

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A theory, anyway -- Donna Richoux

Reinhold (Rey) Aman - 27 Jan 2004 10:34 GMT
[...]

> Looks like horse talk, don't it? A "hunter" being a kind of horse.
> So a horse's level best would have been how fast it could run on
> level ground.

Is that with or without a little Negro jockey on its back?

Just wondering, as always.

Signature

Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Hippophile

Ben Zimmer - 27 Jan 2004 16:19 GMT
> > > While we've been puzzling over 'hollow', my mind wandered to 'level
> > > best' - the only meaning I can find in M-W that seems close is d(i)
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> horse's level best would have been how fast it could run on level
> ground.

I'm not so sure it has to do with horses-- skimming through the first
dozen or so cites on the Making of America database from 1865 on
<http://tinyurl.com/yqoxh>, I don't see anything related to horses.
Schele De Vere's _Americanisms_ (1872) mentions the expression in the
entry for "level" (under "Cant and Slang"):

    Level, a term probably borrowed from the diggings
    for precious metals, has of late entered into a
    number of slang expressions. When two persons are
    bargaining with each other, the seller is apt to
    say that he "will make an offer on a broad level,"
    to imply that he proposes to offer his property at
    the lowest price possible. A Western man, making
    fair promises, says earnestly, "Mister, I'll do my
    level best;" and if he wishes to bestow great praise
    on a friend, he says of him that "his head is level,"
    meaning that he is a man of eminent good, practical
    sense; "well-balanced," as it would be called from
    a different standpoint. The origin of the phrase is
    seen in the words of a dying miner: "Now, pardner,
    I feel that I can't drift no further on this level,
    and I guess I've got to go down lower." (Overland
    Monthly, March, 1871.)

So this seems to imply that "(one's) level best" originally had more to
do with fair-mindedness and equanimity, at least indirectly associated
with being "on the level", having a "level head", etc.
Donna Richoux - 27 Jan 2004 16:56 GMT
> > > > While we've been puzzling over 'hollow', my mind wandered to 'level
> > > > best' - the only meaning I can find in M-W that seems close is d(i)
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> I'm not so sure it has to do with horses--

Well, I did say it was a theory.

>skimming through the first
> dozen or so cites on the Making of America database from 1865 on
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> do with fair-mindedness and equanimity, at least indirectly associated
> with being "on the level", having a "level head", etc.

The Dictionary of American English has separate entries for

"on the level" 1790
"level head" "level-headed" and "level-headedness," all 1870s
"(one's) level best" 1851

That last is the same 1851 citation as Martin gave. The next is 1867,
Mark Twain, "He done his level best."

So that doesn't really add much of anything as to origin. Oh, DAE says
all these are of US origin, so that's consistent with them being in De
Vere's "Americanisms."

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Truly Donovan - 28 Jan 2004 07:11 GMT
>Well, I did say it was a theory.

And a damn reasonable one, too.
Signature

Truly Donovan
Lexy Connor mysteries: Chandler's Daughter, Winslow's Wife
http://www.trulydonovan.com
truly@trulydonovan.com

Robert Bannister - 27 Jan 2004 23:47 GMT
>> While we've been puzzling over 'hollow', my mind wandered to 'level
>> best' - the only meaning I can find in M-W that seems close is d(i)
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> even shorter than that of COD10:
>   –level best : very best

Looks as if I should have scrolled down. However, none of the dictionary
quotes you give, explains why 'level' = 'very'.
Signature

Rob Bannister

Charles Riggs - 25 Jan 2004 03:56 GMT
>> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>I've spent a week in Omaha and five days in Chicago. Am I sensible?

Certainly. You left, didn't you?

Aside: Chicago, as I think Richard will confirm, is actually an East
coast city: it's okay, in other words. San Francisco is the only other
city to have this never-never land characteristic. It's even more than
okay.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Pat Durkin - 25 Jan 2004 05:47 GMT
> >> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> city to have this never-never land characteristic. It's even more than
> okay.

I hope Areff shows up to counter your interpretation of Chicago's place in
the firmament.

It is hardly the goal of the lemmings that rush to the coasts.

Recall, Charles.  Richard thinks Chicago is landlocked.
Charles Riggs - 25 Jan 2004 06:53 GMT
>> Aside: Chicago, as I think Richard will confirm, is actually an East
>> coast city: it's okay, in other words. San Francisco is the only other
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I hope Areff shows up to counter your interpretation of Chicago's place in
>the firmament.

I thought he'd written a few kind words about it. I realize there is
only one real city, but I think he allows for the slim possibility
that a few others might be acceptable to some.

>It is hardly the goal of the lemmings that rush to the coasts.
>
>Recall, Charles.  Richard thinks Chicago is landlocked.

Richard has said a great many things, Pat. I'd need a memory far
better than mine to keep track of half of them.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Maria Conlon - 25 Jan 2004 20:32 GMT
>> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I've spent a week in Omaha and five days in Chicago. Am I sensible?

Certainly! And, if you'll read my response to Bob C., you'll see that
non-US volunteers will be welcome to our Midwest Mob. Professors from
any location are certainly welcome -- we are not anti-academia -- and I
hope Prof. Lawler will see this note, too.

Membership cards are not quite ready, not having been begun as yet.

Signature

Maria Conlon

Bob Cunningham - 25 Jan 2004 21:04 GMT
> >> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]

> >>> Another egregious slam at the Midwest.

> >> Yes. Pat, you and I and the other sensible AUEers (most of whom are
> >> in the Midwest or at least have spent part of their lives here) need
> >> to get together and form a -- what? A club, a committee, a think
> >> tank?  No... um -- wait a minute! I know! A mob. Yes, a mob, formed
> >> specifically to teach them whippersnappers and smart-alecks from the
> >> coasts a thing or two.

> >> I'm ready to take 'em on.

> > I've spent a week in Omaha and five days in Chicago. Am I sensible?

> Certainly! And, if you'll read my response to Bob C., you'll see that
> non-US volunteers will be welcome to our Midwest Mob. Professors from
> any location are certainly welcome -- we are not anti-academia -- and I
> hope Prof. Lawler will see this note, too.

If I understand correctly, you will accept applications from
people in Moldavia and Taiwan, but not from Californians for
two reasons:

   1. They are near a coast.
   2. They are not bright.
Maria Conlon - 25 Jan 2004 21:50 GMT
>Maria Conlon said:
>>>> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>     1. They are near a coast.
>     2. They are not bright.

Unless said Californians have spent part of their lives in the Midwest,
and/or feel kindly towards the Midwest, do you think they'd be
interested in joining? If yes, that's intriguing. One has to wonder why.

By the way, the "not bright" remark I made (in another post) *could*
indicate that Californians are a very tolerant, and make newcomers feel
at home. Could have.

But if you understand my posts on this subject in the 1-2 fashion you
indicated, then that's what you understand. But there's no problem --you
can join anyway providing you defend the Great Midwest henceforth.

Oh. Did I mention dues yet?

Signature

Maria Conlon

Dr Robin Bignall - 26 Jan 2004 21:53 GMT
[the Midwest supporters' mob]

>Oh. Did I mention dues yet?

I knew there'd be a snag.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Robert Lieblich - 26 Jan 2004 22:10 GMT
> [the Midwest supporters' mob]
> >
> >Oh. Did I mention dues yet?
>
> I knew there'd be a snag.

This is very discouraging.  I assumed that, like all warriors, we'd
be on salary.

Be careful, Tootsie, you never know who's watching.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Former naval person

Dr Robin Bignall - 27 Jan 2004 00:20 GMT
>Bob Lieblich
>Former naval person

That reminds me of another of those silly jokes. What's a naval destroyer?
A hula hoop with a nail through it.

What were these things called at the time? (1960s?) I'm sure they had a
name.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Robert Lieblich - 25 Jan 2004 02:19 GMT
> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> teach them whippersnappers and smart-alecks from the coasts a thing or
> two.

Will you accept applications from people born and reared in Flyover
Country even if we now live in a coastal state?

> I'm ready to take 'em on.

You and the Cowardly Lion (after he got his medal).

Signature

Bob Lieblich
And me

Maria Conlon - 25 Jan 2004 20:33 GMT
>> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Will you accept applications from people born and reared in Flyover
> Country even if we now live in a coastal state?

Certainly! See (above) what I said about living "part of their lives
here." (And see also my response to Bob C.)

>> I'm ready to take 'em on.
>
> You and the Cowardly Lion (after he got his medal).

Well, I don't guess I'll ever get any medals, but I'll stand up and
fight for the Great Midwest anyway. Its dissing critics are stone cold
wrong, and that's more wrong than wrong, wrong, wrongity, wrong.

Signature

Maria Conlon
Hi, Bob.

Jerry Friedman - 27 Jan 2004 20:01 GMT
> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I'm ready to take 'em on.

Is it too late to change it to a caucus?

Anyway, sign me up.  I'm from Cleveland, which may be in the Midwest,
and Charles thinks Santa Fe is in the Midwest (!a la verga!), so I
should qualify.

Signature

Jerry Friedman

Charles Riggs - 28 Jan 2004 08:05 GMT
>> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>and Charles thinks Santa Fe is in the Midwest (!a la verga!), so I
>should qualify.

I think my sister lives in the West on top of a mountain not far from
Santa Fe itself. Who would argue that? Cleveland I'm not so sure
about. It surely has some East coast characteristics, but perhaps our
expert would classify it as being in the Midwest. Just where is
Richard nowadays?
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Pat Durkin - 28 Jan 2004 16:33 GMT
> >> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> expert would classify it as being in the Midwest. Just where is
> Richard nowadays?
You see, Charles, I did call upon the name of RF some time back, while you
were praising Chicago as if it didn't belong in the Midwest.

Since RF claims that Western Connecticut is part of the Midwest, I don't
doubt he would include Cleveland.

In fact, I think I did persuade him that all of Ohio was part of the
Midwest.  At about that time, a regular poster then living in Ohio was very
dismayed that anyone would think
that he resided in the Midwest.  I think he considered that his little
corner of Ohio to be part of Greater Laurel.
Charles Riggs - 29 Jan 2004 06:50 GMT
>You see, Charles, I did call upon the name of RF some time back, while you
>were praising Chicago as if it didn't belong in the Midwest.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>that he resided in the Midwest.  I think he considered that his little
>corner of Ohio to be part of Greater Laurel.

I have some fond memories of Columbus. Good people, nice town, not a
bad university. Can that be the Midwest? Yes, I'm sure it can. As I've
said before, I don't dislike any section of the country, since certain
cities in Texas do have their appeal; I simply like some parts better
than others. When I have appeared to have a far more dogmatic view, it
was usually when I was teasing Tootsie, a staunch defender of the
Midwest.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Pat Durkin - 30 Jan 2004 01:23 GMT
> >You see, Charles, I did call upon the name of RF some time back, while you
> >were praising Chicago as if it didn't belong in the Midwest.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> was usually when I was teasing Tootsie, a staunch defender of the
> Midwest.

Oh, Charles, how soon ye forget.
Anyway, you were criticizing all the people in the Midwest, based only on
Maria's viewpoint.
Maria Conlon - 30 Jan 2004 03:20 GMT
> Charles Riggs wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Anyway, you were criticizing all the people in the Midwest, based
> only on Maria's viewpoint.

Surely others offered views about the Midwest...?

Signature

Maria Conlon

Pat Durkin - 30 Jan 2004 04:13 GMT
> > Charles Riggs wrote in message
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Surely others offered views about the Midwest...?

Oh, I am sure they have.  However, Charles used your post as emblematic.
viz "
> "Charles Riggs" <CHANGE@aircom.net> wrote in message
news:2t5410tk6og2ketdtlo9r5bi7hcmjfophs@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:38:19 -0500, "Maria Conlon"
> <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> of Mr Bush's influence. He is a very dangerous man, as is any deluded
> evangelist who wields a large amount of power.

Well, he does allow for a few to be aware of Bush's reputation in Europe,
doesn't he?
"
Charles Riggs - 30 Jan 2004 08:09 GMT
>Well, he does allow for a few to be aware of Bush's reputation in Europe,
>doesn't he?

I did and do, my definition of few being unspecified. It could refer
to a relatively large or small number: all bases covered. Thank you,
Pat, for the heads-up.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Charles Riggs - 30 Jan 2004 07:28 GMT
>> >You see, Charles, I did call upon the name of RF some time back, while
>you
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>Oh, Charles, how soon ye forget.

Oh, Pat, how careful you are to remember! If it pleases you to think I
dislike the people of the Midwest, I am happy you are happy.
Therefore, I do hope you don't read my next two words: I don't.

>Anyway, you were criticizing all the people in the Midwest, based only on
>Maria's viewpoint.

Could that be anything but teasing? Teasing Maria, as I've often done
with her in the past and she's often done with me? How could I
possibly put all the people of a large region in the same boat when
being serious? Perhaps you are a member of the C**per Fan Club, a
follower of a person nearly incapable of rational thought. I hope not,
but it could explain any prejudice against me you might hold. Or could
it be you don't care for Easterners? Nah, that couldn't be it for
we've agreed that such regional prejudice is not our cup of tea.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Pat Durkin - 30 Jan 2004 17:46 GMT
> >> >You see, Charles, I did call upon the name of RF some time back, while
> >you
> >> >were praising Chicago as if it didn't belong in the Midwest.

> >> I have some fond memories of Columbus. Good people, nice town, not a
> >> bad university. Can that be the Midwest? Yes, I'm sure it can. As I've
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Oh, Pat, how careful you are to remember! If it pleases you to think I
> dislike the people of the Midwest, I am happy you are happy.

Not to say "dislike", but to say you indicate scorn for the opinions and
thought processes of an entire region.

> >Anyway, you were criticizing all the people in the Midwest, based only on
> >Maria's viewpoint.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> possibly put all the people of a large region in the same boat when
> being serious?

But didn't you put the entire Midwest (with a few exceptions) into that very
boat?

Leave Tony out of this.  You are constantly trying to group and judge people
by their associations.  Or will you say you are not doing this?   ( And here
I go doing the very same thing.  Pat, shut up.)

I guess I just don't react pleasurably to your evaluations, so I will stop
reacting verbally.
Mickwick - 30 Jan 2004 20:44 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Pat Durkin wrote:

[...]

>I guess I just don't react pleasurably to your evaluations, so I will stop
>reacting verbally.

Watch it! You nearly put my eye out.

Signature

Mickwick

Robert Lieblich - 25 Jan 2004 02:17 GMT
> > >But enough U. S.  politics. You need to be *here*, Charles, IMO, to get
> > >the full flavor.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Another egregious slam at the Midwest.

Yeah, where is Areff these days?

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Where am I? come to think of it

Charles Riggs - 25 Jan 2004 03:55 GMT
>> >But enough U. S.  politics. You need to be *here*, Charles, IMO, to get
>> >the full flavor.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Another egregious slam at the Midwest.

Interesting word, egregious. With its several meanings, some the
opposite from others, I can see how useful it might be at times. I'll
try to remember it.

Since I gave the Midwest a good deal of credit this time, I'm not sure
which meaning of the word was intended.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jan 2004 22:05 GMT
> PS -- Kerry will be the hands-down winner in New Hampshire next
> week.  My crystal ball, assisted by knowledge of the results from
> the most recent US polls, also tells me a Democrat will be the next
> President.

I note that that statement can still be true if Bush wins in
November.

Signature

Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
   HP Laboratories                    |So when can we quit passing laws and
   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |raising taxes?  When can we say of
   Palo Alto, CA  94304               |our political system, "Stick a fork
                                      |in it, it's done?"
   kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com             |                  P.J. O'Rourke
   (650)857-7572

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

R H Draney - 23 Jan 2004 22:30 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>> PS -- Kerry will be the hands-down winner in New Hampshire next
>> week.  My crystal ball, assisted by knowledge of the results from
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I note that that statement can still be true if Bush wins in
>November.

That occurred to me as well...this year, there are four possible outcomes:
(1) Bush wins, pushing the "next President" question into 2008
(2) A Democrat wins, making Charles's crystal ball correct immediately
(3) A third-party candidate wins, a first in US Presidential politics, or
(4) Bush is not the Republican candidate in November...given his current
approval rating and the traditional edge an incumbent has both in primaries and
in the general election, it's unlikely that he'll fail to be nominated by his
party unless something dire happens (the last time the party favorite missed
appearing on the ballot was 1968, a tragic and--more importantly--uncommon
occurrence)....

Let's set aside possibilities 3 and 4 at this point....

Now if it goes to 2008, Dububbya will be ineligible to run under the provisions
of the 22nd Amendment, and the likely choice of the GOP at that time will be
Dick Cheney...the party in the White House has nominated either its incumbent
President or its Vice-President in every election since 1956 and things have, if
anything, become even more hidebound since...all those months in an "undisclosed
location" and out of the limelight can't but hurt Cheney's appeal to voters, and
if the Democrats lose this time out they'll have four years to concentrate their
efforts on further building their base and positioning a genuinely strong
candidate to run...whoever they pick in '08 (my crystal ball is dark on this
point) will be a virtual shoo-in....r
Sara Lorimer - 28 Jan 2004 18:34 GMT
Maria Conlon wrote, in part:

> As a name, "Hortense" is dreadful, of course. A "Hortense" cannot escape
> being called "whore"...

I hadn't made the Hortense/whore connection until I read this -- somehow
I don't hear the word when I read it, I guess. Come to think of it, I
don't know if I've ever said "Hortense" out loud until (pause) now.

Signature

SML

ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu  <http://pirate-women.com>

Robert Bannister - 29 Jan 2004 00:39 GMT
> Maria Conlon wrote, in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I hadn't made the Hortense/whore connection until I read this -- somehow
> I don't hear the word when I read it, I guess.

I hadn't made that connection myself, even on the few occasions when I
heard it, probably because the stress is on the second syllable. Even
with words where the stress is on the 1st syllable, like
'horticulturist', I'd have to be in a strange mood to make that connection.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Maria Conlon - 29 Jan 2004 01:04 GMT
>> Maria Conlon wrote, in part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> 'horticulturist', I'd have to be in a strange mood to make that
> connection.

I've only heard it with the stress on the first syllable, and it's a
much shorter name than "horticulturist" is a word. (Not that that
excuses me for having such a dirty mind.)

Signature

Maria Conlon

Dr Robin Bignall - 28 Jan 2004 23:55 GMT
>As a name, "Hortense" is dreadful, of course. A "Hortense" cannot escape
>being called "whore" ...

As a Virginia cannot escape being called 'virgin' for short, but not for
long?

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

R J Valentine - 24 Jan 2004 05:28 GMT
...
} About the subject line:  I greatly dislike it when I write a
} meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
} discussions that have nothing to do with it.  My answer to
} the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.
...

Yeah, but how hard would't've been to have stuck an "etc." after the
nonsense word (in the spirit of encouraging conformity)?

Signature

R. J. Valentine <mailto:conformity-rules-yo@wicked.smart.net>
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  Oops!  Sorry.

 
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