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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Initials and spaces
In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a space or not after the dots? Also, can I omit the dots?  SignaturePer Johansson > In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, > Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a > space or not after the dots? Yes, put a space after the period in an abbreviation. > Also, can I omit the dots? Only for Harry S Truman. SignatureJack Gavin >> In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, >> Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a >> space or not after the dots? > >Yes, put a space after the period in an abbreviation. Unless it's followed by another abbreviation, of course. >> Also, can I omit the dots? > >Only for Harry S Truman. Zmadrafack, they're quite often omitted these days in BrE. Quite a few major publications omit them in their house style. I remember that the much-missed AUEer Brian J Goggin preferred that style, too, as do -- I see from a quick check -- Laura H Spira and R H Draney, apparently. -- Ross Howard > >> In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, > >> Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > much-missed AUEer Brian J Goggin preferred that style, too, as do -- I > see from a quick check -- Laura H Spira and R H Draney, apparently. I eschew them. (They're unnecessary and aesthetically unpleasing.) I usually keep the spaces though. Mr A G Bailey >> >> In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, >> >> Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >I eschew them. (They're unnecessary and aesthetically unpleasing.) Laura and R. H. are? >I usually >keep the spaces though. SignatureMike Bandy >>>>In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, >>>>Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I eschew them. (They're unnecessary and aesthetically unpleasing.) I hope you are not referring to r, he has always struck me as a pleasant and entertaining chap and his photo isn't that bad. This Laura H is quite unnecessary, though. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, >>> Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >much-missed AUEer Brian J Goggin preferred that style, too, as do -- I >see from a quick check -- Laura H Spira and R H Draney, apparently. Dr Spira too. Will the custom catch on in America? I see no advantage to retaining the periods. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net >>>>In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, >>>>Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Dr Spira too. Will the custom catch on in America? I see no advantage > to retaining the periods. That's Professor Spira, Charles - I'm standing on ceremony this week. Obaue: why standing *on* ceremony, I wonder? Wouldn't "in" make more sense? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) Laura F Spira spake thus: > That's Professor Spira, Charles - I'm standing on ceremony this week. > Obaue: why standing *on* ceremony, I wonder? Wouldn't "in" make more sense? Oh, yours was one of those trade-in Professorships, was it? SignatureDavid ===== > Laura F Spira spake thus: > >>That's Professor Spira, Charles - I'm standing on ceremony this week. >>Obaue: why standing *on* ceremony, I wonder? Wouldn't "in" make more sense? > > Oh, yours was one of those trade-in Professorships, was it? I'm not sure I understand but I sense a vague insult. You'd have to be far more cutting to outdo the colleague who speculated that I'd only got it because the VC was frightened that I might try to seduce him in my quest for academic status... SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) Laura F Spira spake thus: > > Laura F Spira spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > it because the VC was frightened that I might try to seduce him in my > quest for academic status... I don't insult people as a rule, but I am sure it would not be vague if I did. Sorry. It was intended to be a joke - if you are now "Professor" (belated congrats, btw), but no longer "Doctor", then you must have handed in your "Doctor" in part payment for your "Professor". Did nobody get this? I thought it was fairly amusing, but then I'm a programmer. SignatureDavid ===== > Laura F Spira spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Did nobody get this? I thought it was fairly amusing, but then I'm a > programmer. Oh dear, how disappointing: I thought you were being clever and I was hoping to learn something that I could copy and use to impress others. I have decided to be happy about the insults that have accompanied the congratulations. Some of them have been quite entertaining, for me as well as for the insultors. No need to apologise and thank you for your good wishes. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >Laura F Spira spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Did nobody get this? I thought it was fairly amusing, but then I'm a >programmer. I was trying to figure out the connection between Laura and a used car. They both have titles is the best I could come up with. Tony Cooper spake thus: > >Laura F Spira spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I was trying to figure out the connection between Laura and a used > car. They both have titles is the best I could come up with. We can trade in all sorts of things here. Houses and washing machines for example. BTW, "title"? Is this =UK Registration Document V5, sometime "Log Book"? SignatureDavid ===== >Tony Cooper spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >BTW, "title"? Is this =UK Registration Document V5, sometime "Log >Book"? The "title" is your certificate of ownership. It's a bit of paper saying that you own the car. If you sell the car, you sign over the title to the buyer. If you buy a car and finance the transaction (hire-purchase?), the lending organization has a lien on the vehicle and this is stamped on the title. When the loan is paid off, the title is so stamped. Tony Cooper spake thus: > The "title" is your certificate of ownership. It's a bit of paper > saying that you own the car. If you sell the car, you sign over the > title to the buyer. If you buy a car and finance the transaction > (hire-purchase?), the lending organization has a lien on the vehicle > and this is stamped on the title. When the loan is paid off, the > title is so stamped. That's a "yes" then. The V5 (Registration Document) is a legally required document showing the Keeper of a car, but not indicating the owner (as would the title deeds of a house). There's no certificate of ownership for cars here, any more than there is for bicycles or computers. It's only land (and hence houses) which has registered ownership, I think. Hire Purchase is a very specific type of loan where the finance company owns the goods until you have repaid the loan in full. Since the V5 indicates the keeper and not the owner, the hire purchase agreement is registered with a central service to which all the finance companies and car dealers subscribe so they can check up on you when you try to sell your car to them. I've never heard of a UK bank taking a charge on a car (in the way they do with a house) when making an ordinary personal loan. They ask why you are borrowing the money, but once it's granted they don't check what you actually do with it. SignatureDavid ===== david56 filted: >I've never heard of a UK bank taking a charge on a car (in the way >they do with a house) when making an ordinary personal loan. They >ask why you are borrowing the money, but once it's granted they don't >check what you actually do with it. Odd...so you don't have repo men in the UK who "steal" the car back if you default on the loan?...r R H Draney spake thus: > david56 filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Odd...so you don't have repo men in the UK who "steal" the car back if you > default on the loan?...r Yes, if it's on Hire Purchase, but No if you bought it with an unsecured personal loan. In the latter case you owe them the money, but they have no automatic right to any items you may have bought with it, or told them that you were going to buy with it. They have to go to court. SignatureDavid ===== >Tony Cooper spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Hire Purchase is a very specific type of loan where the finance >company owns the goods until you have repaid the loan in full. Then "hire purchase" is incorrect for my reference. A person that finances the car "owns" the car, but the lien on the title restricts that person from selling the car until the lien is removed. >I've never heard of a UK bank taking a charge on a car (in the way >they do with a house) when making an ordinary personal loan. They >ask why you are borrowing the money, but once it's granted they don't >check what you actually do with it. Not so here. Banks have specific auto loans. If you default on the loan, they repossess the car. The vehicle is the specific collateral of the loan. It's not uncommon at all to drive by a bank and see several cars out in front that are for sale. They have been repossessed by the bank. My bank routinely sends me advertising suggesting that I contact them before purchasing a car. When we buy a car, and finance it, we can specify which bank the loan is from. Or, we can pre-negotiate the loan with a bank and give the car dealer a check from the bank. One disclaimer.....What I have said is true of Florida. That doesn't mean it is necessarily true in other states. A bit of change here......I have a mortgage on my house. When I built the house, I dealt directly with the bank that provided the funds. In the ensuing years, my mortgage has been sold three times. I now pay completely different party the mortgage payment. When a mortgage is sold, it does not affect the terms, conditions, or interest rate as far as the individual is concerned. True in the UK? Tony Cooper spake thus: > A bit of change here......I have a mortgage on my house. When I built > the house, I dealt directly with the bank that provided the funds. In [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > True in the UK? I suppose it's possible but I've never heard of it happening with non-commercial mortgages. There has been considerable consolidation of the UK building society and bank sector through mergers and takeovers (building societies are mutual banks, owned by the depositors and borrowers). So ones mortgage may end up with a different lending institution, but that is because it has absorbed your lending bank or building society. Indeed, the T&Cs remain the same for the length of the agreement you had with the original lender. SignatureDavid ===== > Tony Cooper spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > here, any more than there is for bicycles or computers. It's only > land (and hence houses) which has registered ownership, I think. In the US, the car's "title" document from the owner's state or residence shows ownership, as described above in this thread, and is durable (perhaps with stampings removing leins) until the vehicle is sold. It shows the VIN (vehicle identification number, hard stamped onto the car in several locations), but not a license plate number. The "registration" is a (usually) annual document from the same state, generally expiring on the anniversary month of when the current owner received title. It shows both the VIN and the license plate. Renewal of the registration is how the state collects annual fees, and may be used to track required vehicle inspections. The registration (along with your license and usually proof of insurance) must be available for inspection when you are pulled over by the police. (This is for the simple owner-operated case. If there is a lease, especially when the owner (bank) is in one state and the operator (lessee) is in another, I don't know how that works.) SignatureJack Gavin >The "registration" is a (usually) annual document from the same state, >generally expiring on the anniversary month of when the current owner >received title. In Florida, the birth month of the owner for a privately owned vehicle, and December 31 for a lease vehicle. >(This is for the simple owner-operated case. If there is a lease, >especially when the owner (bank) is in one state and the operator (lessee) >is in another, I don't know how that works.) No different other than the month of expiration of the registration and license plate. >> The "registration" is a (usually) annual document from the same >> state, generally expiring on the anniversary month of when the >> current owner received title. > > In Florida, the birth month of the owner for a privately owned > vehicle, and December 31 for a lease vehicle. If I was born in January, and buy a car in July, is the first registration valid for 6 months, or for 18? Prorated fees? SignatureJack Gavin >>> The "registration" is a (usually) annual document from the same >>> state, generally expiring on the anniversary month of when the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >If I was born in January, and buy a car in July, is the first registration >valid for 6 months, or for 18? Prorated fees? In Florida, yes for valid until your birthday and a prorated fee. The date tag on your license plate shows only the month and the year. The actual expiration is the date of your birthday. This was explained to me by a cop that stopped me (for something else) because it was May 20th and my birthday is May 11th. He didn't ticket me, though. The down-side of Florida's system is that if I sell the car on July 1st, I don't get a refund on the remaining months. The new buyer's time span is from his birthday. The state wins. To nit-pick, the car is registered to the owner just once. The registration is renewed after that. >Laura F Spira spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Did nobody get this? I thought it was fairly amusing, but then I'm a >programmer. I didn't get it either. Maybe you should have written it in ALGOL. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >> Dr Spira too. Will the custom catch on in America? I see no advantage >> to retaining the periods. > >That's Professor Spira, Charles - I'm standing on ceremony this week. This week, fine, but I got into deep kimchi one week when I referred to you as Ms Spira, rather than Dr Spira. The tongue-lashing I received made a lasting impression. >Obaue: why standing *on* ceremony, I wonder? Wouldn't "in" make more sense? How's about a 'for a'? SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net >>>>> In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, >>>>> Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > That's Professor Spira, Charles - I'm standing on ceremony this week. > Obaue: why standing *on* ceremony, I wonder? Wouldn't "in" make more sense? Doesn't it mean something like "insist on"? "Stand not upon the order of your going, But go at once" My Chambers says it is a nautical term, meaning "continue on the same tack or course". SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >> That's Professor Spira, Charles - I'm standing on ceremony this week. >> Obaue: why standing *on* ceremony, I wonder? Wouldn't "in" make more [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > My Chambers says it is a nautical term, meaning "continue on the same > tack or course". I think I've only ever heard it used negatively: "I won't stand on ceremony", meaning "I won't go through all the rigmarole." SignatureRob Bannister >>>In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, >>>Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > see from a quick check -- Laura H Spira and R H Draney, apparently. > Who is this Laura H Spira? Sometimes I include a full stop after my F, sometimes I don't. In some print situations (official business cards, for example) I'm not allowed to. Sometimes I'm not even allowed to include the F, which I find very irritating. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > > [...] Laura H Spira and R H Draney, apparently. > Who is this Laura H Spira? With a haytch as in Howard? > Sometimes I'm not even allowed to include the F, which I find very > irritating. If you find a letter irritating, why do you want to include it? Best regards Steffen A Bühler >>>>In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, >>>>Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Who is this Laura H Spira? You mean your middle name's not Hortense? -- Ross Howard > > In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, > > Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Only for Harry S Truman. Because it wasn't an abbreviation, I suppose? SignatureAlec McKenzie mckenzie@despammed.com >>> In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, >>> Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Because it wasn't an abbreviation, I suppose? Right-o. But Harry usually *did* put the period. http://www.trumanlibrary.org/speriod.htm SignatureJack Gavin While it was 22/1/04 10:25 pm throughout the UK, Jack Gavin sprinkled little black dots on a white screen, and they fell thus: <snip> >>> Only for Harry S Truman. Or Homer J Simpson, according to an episode I'm not sure I've seen myself. >> Because it wasn't an abbreviation, I suppose? > > Right-o. But Harry usually *did* put the period. > > http://www.trumanlibrary.org/speriod.htm Just as I can write my full name in full, or in middle-initial form Stewart Mark Jonathan Gordon vs. Stewart M. J. Gordon so can the president Harry S Truman vs. Harry S. Truman Stewart. SignatureMy e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox, aside from its being the unfortunate victim of intensive mail-bombing at the moment. Please keep replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit. >Or Homer J Simpson, according to an episode I'm not sure I've seen myself. It's Homer Jay Simpson. David > > In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, > > Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Only for Harry S Truman. Then there's "Elliot S! Maggin". "I got into the habit of putting exclamation marks at the end of sentences instead of periods because reproduction on pulp paper was so lousy. So once, by accident, when I signed a script I put the exclamation point after my 'S' because I was just used to going to that end of the typewriter at the time. And Julie (Schwartz) saw it, and before he told me, he goes into the production room and issues a general order that any mention of Elliot Maggin's name will be punctuated with an exclamation mark rather than a period from now on until eternity." http://superman.ws/Maggin/maggin.php SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can we at least make it round this Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> > Also, can I omit the dots? >> >> Only for Harry S Truman. The Chicago Manual of Style says to put the period after the S even though it stands for nothing. See 15.12. But that is just their style. No wrong or right. Matt > >> > Also, can I omit the dots? > >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stands for nothing. See 15.12. But that is just their style. No wrong or > right. Don't kid yourself, Matt. For some people here, the CMoS is the be-all and end-all of US writing. While it was 24/1/04 1:29 pm throughout the UK, DOYLE60 sprinkled little black dots on a white screen, and they fell thus: >>>> Also, can I omit the dots? >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > though it stands for nothing. See 15.12. But that is just their > style. No wrong or right. As long as it's consistent with their normal style of using middle initials rather than whole middle names. Stewart. SignatureMy e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox, aside from its being the unfortunate victim of intensive mail-bombing at the moment. Please keep replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit. > In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, > Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a > space or not after the dots? > > Also, can I omit the dots? Spacing after the periods (dots) is correct. Using periods in abbreviated names is correct, if one is using the full address. However, since many people are referred to by their initials as nicknames in dialog, I think the periods would be eliminated. Indeed, as in Peetee (PT>>P. T. Barnum) the names of the letters in some initialized names are often spelled out. I expect the period will be lost completely for these abbreviations, as they are being eliminated in the Latin abbreviations: am (a.m.), etc. I feel awkward using "period", and "dot", without asking here: Do you Brits use full-stop in every non-mathematical use? [...] [answering euquiry abouyt spacing after abbreviations] > Indeed, as in Peetee (PT>>P. T. Barnum) the > names of the letters in some initialized names are often spelled out. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I feel awkward using "period", and "dot", without asking here: Do you Brits > use full-stop in every non-mathematical use? The word "period" is not customarily used in this sense in BrE (in grammar contexts it means a long and intricate sentence with the main clause near the end), and many of us confine "full stop" to the dot at the end of a sentence. "Dot" is in general use when spelling out web-site addresses. I've also seen (but not heard) "full point" for various non-sentence-ending uses, and that seems proper enough. I don't know what the "full" implies, though, unless it means "fully down on the base-line" as opposed to the half-way-up-the-figure dot often preferred for the decimal point. Alan Jones > The word "period" is not customarily used in this sense in BrE Formerly it was, but, as Alan Jones went on to note, it is ambiguous, as are "comma", "apostrophe", "parenthesis", "colon", etc., all of which, like "period", have meanings in the study of language other than their reference to punctuation marks. -- Mike Hardy > (in grammar contexts it means a long and intricate sentence > with the main clause near the end), > > In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, > > Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I feel awkward using "period", and "dot", without asking here: Do you Brits > use full-stop in every non-mathematical use? Using spaces after the periods in "J.R.R. Tolkien" and similar names, except for the one preceding the full word, seems old-fashioned to me. The Century Dictionary,* an American dictionary of 1895 at www.century-dictionary.com would have written such a name "J. R. R. Tolkien," and that seems almost as odd to me as putting a space before the question mark, which they also do. At http://www.bartleby.com/185/ *The American Language* is presented as being by "H.L. Mencken," and that is generally how such names are presented in American English, in my experience. However, *The Columbia Encyclopedia,* 6th ed. at http://www.bartleby.com/65/me/Mencken.html gives the entry for Mencken as "Mencken, H. L." so some American still use a space in such a case. "HL Mencken" and "JRR Tolkien" look odd to me. If a period (full stop) is used after the initial representing a name--and I use one in all instances--and the initial is followed by a full name, then a space follows: "H. Allen Smith," "Raymond S. Wise." SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > "HL Mencken" and "JRR Tolkien" look odd to me. And in certain fonts, "Al Bundy" ('A' followed by lower case 'L') looks a lot like "AI Bundy" ('A' followed by upper case 'I' (eye)). SignatureJack Gavin > In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, > Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a > space or not after the dots? > > Also, can I omit the dots? In America, as formerly in Britain, omitting them would usually be considered incorrect. One a.u.e.er from England said he was taught to use them in school in England in 1940. But in Britain, the practice of omitting them has probably been standard for half a century. -- Mike Hardy >In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, >Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a >space or not after the dots? There is normally a space after the last one: J.R.R. Tolkien >Also, can I omit the dots? If you want to -- it's becoming fashionable to do so; more and more publishing houses are adopting that as their house style. Just be consistent about it. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk } On 22 Jan 2004 16:53:46 GMT, "Per Johansson" <per-nospam@johansson.name> } wrote: } }>In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, }>Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a }>space or not after the dots? } } There is normally a space after the last one: J.R.R. Tolkien }> }>Also, can I omit the dots? } } If you want to -- it's becoming fashionable to do so; more and more publishing } houses are adopting that as their house style. } } Just be consistent about it. Yeah, because there's nothing people hate more than inconsistency in matters of such import. SignatureR. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@smart.net> You can call me Rey. >} On 22 Jan 2004 16:53:46 GMT, "Per Johansson" <per-nospam@johansson.name> >} wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Yeah, because there's nothing people hate more than inconsistency in >matters of such import. The case for the other side, of course, is that copy editors ought to earn what they're paid to do, and making extra work for them makes them feel needed. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Per Johansson: > In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, > Mr. J. Cale, J. Edgar Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should there be a > space or not after the dots? As you've seen elsewhere in the thread, practice varies when there are consecutive initials. I think "J. R. R. Tolkien" was the most common style in the past, but "J.R.R. Tolkien" has rised in popularity. I have copies of two magazines at hand as I write this; in Games they use the second style, while Newsweek uses the first style -- and also uses the old-fashioned US state abbreviations, "Colo." instead of "CO". In environments where you have a half-width space available, this is a possible compromise between the two styles. What has not been emphasized in the thread is that it's *only between two initials* where the space is optional. A space is required between "Mr." and a following initial, and between "Mr." or an initial and a following name. I would say that if a name comes near the end of a line in normal writing, you should try to avoid a line break between "Mr." and what follows, or between two initials. So, for example, if you're composing HTML and want to use the "J. R. R." style, you should write "J. R. R. Tolkien". > Also, can I omit the dots? In North America most people consider them required in normal usage, but a few people omit them. The US Postal Service dislikes punctuation in addresses, so they are normally omitted in that context. (Canada Post doesn't mind punctuation within proper names.) In Britain they are mostly seen as old-fashioned and omitted in all contexts. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Well, I'm back", he said. msb@vex.net -- Tolkien (The Lord of the Rings) My text in this article is in the public domain. > Per Johansson: > > In names with initials and abbreviations, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > second style, while Newsweek uses the first style -- and also uses the > old-fashioned US state abbreviations, "Colo." instead of "CO". Yes, no wonder I'm getting confused, reading various English texts. I had a look at The Tolkien Society, and they write "JRR Tolkien". > In environments where you have a half-width space available, this is a > possible compromise between the two styles. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Mr." and a following initial, and between "Mr." or an initial and a > following name. It's good to know. Is it also that the dot/period after Mr is omitted by the same people that omit them after initials? > I would say that if a name comes near the end of a line in normal writing, > you should try to avoid a line break between "Mr." and what follows, or > between two initials. So, for example, if you're composing HTML and want > to use the "J. R. R." style, you should write "J. R. R. Tolkien". Yes, that is what I do when creating HTML documents, since things like phone numbers should be kept on the same line. But the method you mention is actually old style. As it is part of the presentation, not the content, it can be done using CSS now. Example: <span style="white-space: nowrap ;">J. R. R.</span> Tolkien > > Also, can I omit the dots? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Post doesn't mind punctuation within proper names.) In Britain they > are mostly seen as old-fashioned and omitted in all contexts. I'm beginning to understand the pattern, thanks to the replies here. There seem however to be exceptions to the regional rules. Almost everyone writes US and not U.S. for example. The issue came up since I helped a friend doing proof-reading for his record company. In the song lists written by the company who creates the record covers, the composers were usually written as "O.B. McClinton". I asked them to write "O. B. McClinton" instead, but I see now that it is a matter of style. SignaturePer Johansson Per wrote: [Mark Brader wrote:] [Per wrote:] >>>Also, can I omit the dots? >>In North America most people consider them required in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>are mostly seen as old-fashioned and omitted in all >>contexts. No, they arent. The _Times Literary Supplement_ (London) uses spaced periods, as in "C. K. Ogden and I. A. Richards were debating language at the same time that the magazine was questioning government pronouncements and giving coverage to E. D. Morel's exposure of the secret treaties" (16 Jan 2004, p. 6). >I'm beginning to understand the pattern, thanks to the >replies here. There seem however to be exceptions to the >regional rules. Almost everyone writes US and not U.S. for >example. No, they don't, howsoever much Microsoft wants them to. >The issue came up since I helped a friend doing proof- >reading for his record company. In the song lists written by >the company who The company _that_ (but yes, we seem to be seeing more & more corporate personification lately). This is the opposite of the T*ny C**per twist. >creates the record covers, the composers were usually >written as "O.B. McClinton". I asked them to write "O. B. >McClinton" instead, but I see now that it is a matter of style. Yes; go with the house style, whatever it is: and if your friend owns the house, your friend gets to decide! Mark Brader: >>> In Britain [periods after initials] are mostly seen as old-fashioned >>> and omitted in all contexts. J.W. Love: > No, they arent. The _Times Literary Supplement_ (London) uses spaced > periods, as in "C. K. Ogden and I. A. Richards were debating..." I said "mostly"! *Most* people see them as old-fashioned and omit them in all contexts. That horse is going to come in *second*! At least, that's my impression. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "And kissed her for a hundred and sixty-nine years." msb@vex.net | -- Connie Willis, To Say Nothing of the Dog Mark wrote: >Mark Brader: >>>>In Britain [periods after initials] are mostly seen as [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I said "mostly"! Precisely: I thought the "mostly" applied only to "seen," leaving "omitted in all contexts" an absolute statement. Have we committed one of the Seven Types of Ambiguity?! >*Most* people see them as old-fashioned and omit them >in all contexts. Even if that's true, should one emulate those people? Mark Brader: >>>>> In Britain [periods after initials] are mostly seen as >>>>> old-fashioned and omitted in all contexts. ... >> *Most* people see them as old-fashioned and omit them >> in all contexts. J.W. Love: > Even if that's true, should one emulate those people? Of course not. This practice is completely wrong, as almost any North American English-speaker would tell you. Having realized sometime around 1960 that they were using more punctuation than they needed to, the British have declared war on the stuff and tried to eliminated all their perfectly good punctuation marks as well as the needless ones. I can hardly wait until they drop the *other* half of each quotation mark. Meanwhile, until the British recover their sanity, everyone should just continue copying North American usage. (Not *entirely* in jest.) SignatureMark Brader "'A matter of opinion'[?] I have to say you are Toronto right. There['s] your opinion, which is wrong, msb@vex.net and mine, which is right." -- Gene Ward Smith My text in this article is in the public domain. > Mark Brader: >>>>>> In Britain [periods after initials] are mostly seen as >>>>>> old-fashioned and omitted in all contexts. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > all their perfectly good punctuation marks as well as the needless > ones. Oh, I see. I thought it was the war (don't mention the war) and the scarcity of things what done the damage. > I can hardly wait until they drop the *other* half of each quotation > mark. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (Not *entirely* in jest.) Me neither. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > >I'm beginning to understand the pattern, thanks to the > >replies here. There seem however to be exceptions to the > >regional rules. Almost everyone writes US and not U.S. for > >example. > > No, they don't, howsoever much Microsoft wants them to. As anecdotical evidence, I did a simple web search for "USA" and "U.S.A.", getting 121 and 14 million results, respectively. But, as another poster pointed out, rules are different for personal names anyway. > >The issue came up since I helped a friend doing proof- > >reading for his record company. In the song lists written by [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Yes; go with the house style, whatever it is: and if your friend owns the > house, your friend gets to decide! There's no house style yet. Text writing and layout work is always done by other people and companies, varying in style and quality. In most cases, the preferred style would be what was used on American record labels in the 1950's. (The company colours are taken from Sun Records!) SignaturePer Johansson Per Johansson and J.W. Love write: >>> There seem however to be exceptions to the regional rules. >>> Almost everyone writes US and not U.S. for example. >> No, they don't, howsoever much Microsoft wants them to. > As anecdotical (Good guess, but "anecdote" does not take -ic.) > evidence, I did a simple web search for "USA" and "U.S.A.", getting > 121 and 14 million results, respectively. I think that the periods are more likely to be retained in shorter abbreviations of this kind than longer ones. Some people do still write U.S. and U.S.A., as noted, but I don't think many of the people who abbreviate Macedonia as FYROM would write it F.Y.R.O.M. So it might be true that "USA" is 8.6 times as common as "U.S.A." while "US" is perhaps only 5 times as common as "U.S." But that's only a hypothesis; I can't think of a good way to test it offhand. In fact, when I search for U.S.A. or "U S A" in Google, I get the same results as for "USA". Perhaps Per used a different search engine, or different options somewhere. SignatureMark Brader "So the American government went to IBM Toronto to come up with a data encryption standard msb@vex.net and they came up with...?" "EBCDIC!" My text in this article is in the public domain. > Per Johansson and J.W. Love write: > >>> There seem however to be exceptions to the regional rules. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > (Good guess, but "anecdote" does not take -ic.) This is a typical case of an expression I'm using since (I think) I have seen other people using it lately. However, doing a web search for "anecdotical" returns 903 results only, so I guess I had better avoid it. > > evidence, I did a simple web search for "USA" and "U.S.A.", getting > > 121 and 14 million results, respectively. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > write U.S. and U.S.A., as noted, but I don't think many of the people > who abbreviate Macedonia as FYROM would write it F.Y.R.O.M. Reminds me of the TV series "The Man From U.N.C.L.E." > So it might be true that "USA" is 8.6 times as common as "U.S.A." > while "US" is perhaps only 5 times as common as "U.S." But that's > only a hypothesis; I can't think of a good way to test it offhand. > In fact, when I search for U.S.A. or "U S A" in Google, I get the > same results as for "USA". Perhaps Per used a different search engine, > or different options somewhere. I used AlltheWeb.com. It understands the difference, unlike Google. SignaturePer Johansson > Reminds me of the TV series "The Man From U.N.C.L.E." Which reminds me of the funny group that sometimes crossposts here. SignatureRob Bannister >> Per Johansson and J.W. Love write: ... >> > As anecdotical >> (Good guess, but "anecdote" does not take -ic.) >This is a typical case of an expression I'm using since (I think) I >have seen other people using it lately. However, doing a web search >for "anecdotical" returns 903 results only, so I guess I had better >avoid it. I also looked it up. AHD4 gives "anecdotic" and "anecdotical" as variants of "anecdotal." ... >I used AlltheWeb.com. It understands the difference, unlike Google. That's useful information. Thanks. SignatureMike Bandy > >> Per Johansson and J.W. Love write: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > That's useful information. Thanks. The Merriam-Webster online dictionary at www.m-w.com has "anecdotic" and "anecdotical." The Encarta World English Dictionary, North American ed., has "anecdotic." The dictionary at www.infoplease.com has "anecdotic," and defines it as : [quote] 1. anecdotal. 2. fond of telling anecdotes. Also,an"ec·dot'i·cal. [end quote] *The Century Dictionary* at www.century-dictionary.com goes into detail: [quote] anecdotic, anecdotical [...], _a._ 1. Pertaining to anecdotes ; consisting of or of the nature of anecdotes ; anecdotal. _Anecdotical_ traditions, whose authority is unknown. _Bolingbroke,_ Letter to Pope. He has had rather an _anecdotic_ history, . . . lazy as he is. _George Eliot,_ Daniel Deronda, xxxv. It is at least no fallacy to say that childhood--or the later memory of childhood--must borrow from such a background [the old world] a kind of _anecdotical_ wealth. _H. James, Jr., _Trans. Sketches, p. 10. 2. Given to relating anecdotes. He silenced him without mercy when he attempted to be _anecdotic._ _Savage._ R. Medlicott, iii. 6. anecdotically [...], _adv._ In an- ecdotes ; by means of anecdote. [end quote] SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com I (Mark Brader) wrote: >>>> (Good guess, but "anecdote" does not take -ic.) Ray Wise writes: > The Merriam-Webster online dictionary at www.m-w.com has "anecdotic" and > "anecdotical." > > The Encarta World English Dictionary, North American ed., has "anecdotic." ... My apologies for the misinformation, then. Though it is true that "anecdotal" is far more common -- it outgoogles either "anecdotic" or "anecdotical" by more than 100 to 1. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "The singular of 'data' is not 'anecdote.'" msb@vex.net | -- Jeff Goldberg I (Mark Brader) wrote: >> As you've seen elsewhere in the thread, practice varies when there are >> consecutive initials. I think "J. R. R. Tolkien" was the most common >> style in the past, but "J.R.R. Tolkien" has [risen] in popularity. ... In fact, I just noticed that in email from one of my friends, his real name is shown on his From: lines as either Clive D.W. Feather or Clive D. W. Feather, depending on whether he's sending it from his home machine or his laptop. > > A space is required between "Mr." and a following initial, and > > between "Mr." or an initial and a following name. Per Johansson: > It's good to know. Is it also that the dot/period after Mr is omitted > by the same people that omit them after initials? Not necessarily. There is a school of thought in Britain that says to use the period if and only if the last letter of the original word is not present in the abbreviation. People who conform to that style would have to write "Mr P. Johansson". > I'm beginning to understand the pattern, thanks to the replies here. > There seem however to be exceptions to the regional rules. Almost > everyone writes US and not U.S. for example. You only asked about personal names. Abbreviations formed from initials are indeed commonly written without periods today. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net #define MSB(type) (~(((unsigned type)-1)>>1)) My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark told Per: >You only asked about personal names. Abbreviations >formed from initials are indeed commonly written >without periods today. Generally true in America too, with widely recognized entities & concepts: AFL-CIO, AIDS, CBS, CIA, DDT, FBI, GDP, GOP, IOU, LSD, MIT, NAACP, NATO, OPEC, PCP, PTA, SMU, TNT, UCLA, UNESCO, UNICEF; mph, rpm, Btu, kHz, psi; LLD, MA, PhD, MD. But we have many exceptions. From _The Washington Post Deskbook on Style_ (2nd ed.): "Other abbreviations [than well-known nonplacename abbreviations like CBS, NAACP, EST, and GOP] generally do take periods: _U.N., U.S.S.R., c.o.d., Ave., Sgt._ . . . "Use _A.D._ and _B.C._ but _a.m._ and _p.m._ Use EST, PDT, etc. . . . "Spell out _United States_ as a noun. Use the abbreviation _U.S._ as an adjective and in headlines and captions. . . . "Do not abbreviate names of U.S. possessions, foreign nations or Canadian provinces other than _B.C._ (British Columbia). . . . "Use the standard abbreviations (not the Postal Service's two-letter abbreviations): _Ala., Ariz., Calif., Colo., Conn., D.C., Del., Fla., Ga., Ill., Kan._ . . . "All-capitals abbreviations such as _D.C., N.Y., L.A._ and _P.G._ (for Prince George's County) may be used in headlines. Do not use P.W. for Prince William County or A.A. for Anne Arundel County. . . . "In text, spell out _association, bureau, department_ and _division._ In headlines, _Department_ may be abbreviated as _Dept._ . . . "Do not abbreviate _attorney general, auditor general, commandant, detective, district attorney, governor general, secretary, secretary general or* superintendent._" *Italics _sic_; the stylebook errs. > I (Mark Brader) wrote: > >> As you've seen elsewhere in the thread, practice varies when there are [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > not present in the abbreviation. People who conform to that style would > have to write "Mr P. Johansson". Interesting. > > I'm beginning to understand the pattern, thanks to the replies here. > > There seem however to be exceptions to the regional rules. Almost > > everyone writes US and not U.S. for example. > > You only asked about personal names. Abbreviations formed from initials > are indeed commonly written without periods today. It is true that personal names was what I had in mind. I thought the same rules would apply as for other abbreviations, but obviously, this is not the case. SignaturePer Johansson |
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