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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004"Me and" vs. "and me"
I apologize if this has been discussed before. I searched through the AUE site and FAQ and couldn't find it mentioned. I've always thought it was a rule of grammar that when you list people, you should always put yourself last, e.g.: John and I Suzy, Ellen, and me Bob and myself Recently, though, someone suggested to me that this is just courtesy, not a rule of grammar. Which is it? If I am right, is there an online reference I can cite?  SignatureGail Gurman gail@homemail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Currently on the lookout for an Oakland area paralegal internship or part-time technical writing contract. In our last episode, <Xns9478BE6C9FC5Fgailhomemailcom@63.223.5.250>, the lovely and talented Gail Gurman broadcast on alt.usage.english: > I apologize if this has been discussed before. I searched through the AUE > site and FAQ and couldn't find it mentioned. > I've always thought it was a rule of grammar that when you list people, you > should always put yourself last, e.g.: > John and I > Suzy, Ellen, and me > Bob and myself > Recently, though, someone suggested to me that this is just courtesy, not a > rule of grammar. > Which is it? If I am right, is there an online reference I can cite? This is only a matter of courtesy. No grammar rule requires that the first person pronoun be last in a series. I doubt you will find a online reference that says so since listing all the possible rules that are not would hardly be possible. Many students are taught this courtesy (or style) with grammar and are likely to be convinced that it is grammar. In some cases departing from this convention will produce results that are likely to be disturbing to most native speakers: ?I and John went to the zoo after lunch. In other cases, a variation will hardly be noticed: This ruling is important to me and my family. The grammatical problems with such constructions are: 1) Using "and I" when "and me" is called for -- usually attributed to hypercorrection, and 2) Using "myself" when it is not called for -- which I suppose is a futile effort to escape the problem of whether it should be "I" or "me." "And me" (or "Me and") in place of "and I" is a child's error, and it is hypercorrection of this that results in 1) above. *John and myself went to the movies. I dressed myself and the baby. I dressed the baby and myself. *John and me went to the movies. John and I went to the movies. ?I and John went to the movies. *Patty threw a party for John and I. *Patty threw a party for John and myself. Patty threw a party for me and my family. Patty threw a party for my family and me. On the theory that anything which sounds sufficiently peculiar to a native speaker is ungrammatical you could claim "I and John went to the movies" is ungrammatical, but "me and my family" does not sound so peculiar. If "I and John" is ungrammatical, the rule must be more complicated than simply that the first person pronoun comes last. SignatureLars Eighner -finger for geek code- eighner@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. --Samuel Beckett > I've always thought it was a rule of grammar that when you list people, you > should always put yourself last, e.g.: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Recently, though, someone suggested to me that this is just courtesy, not a > rule of grammar. Your informer was right: this is a point of rhetorical politeness, not a grammatical rule. -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > > I've always thought it was a rule of grammar that when you list > > people, you should always put yourself last, e.g.: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Your informer was right: this is a point of > rhetorical politeness, not a grammatical rule. But there does seem to be a canonical order, at least for most people. For me, it seems to be you, he, John, I and when considering using objective pronouns in the subject me, you, us, him, John Other orders just sound awkward, if not actually wrong. Interestingly, I can't seem to get a consistent order for objects. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There is something fascinating 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |about science. One gets such Palo Alto, CA 94304 |wholesale returns of conjecture out |of such a trifling investment of kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |fact. (650)857-7572 | Mark Twain http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> I've always thought it was a rule of grammar that when you list >> people, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Don Phillipson > Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) Thanks very much for answer my question! SignatureGail Gurman gail@homemail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Currently on the lookout for an Oakland area paralegal internship or part-time technical writing contract. |
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